Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Hi Mike, Am 2016-10-22 um 20:43 schrieb Mike Boos: > I don't know if I'd characterize this as a "Karlsuhe model" train-tram - > the system is entirely within a single urban area (even if it does span two > adjacent cities), it just uses an existing rail corridor in some places. > Unlike the Karlsuhe system, the vehicles have only a single operating > voltage. There are lines in Karlsruhe which use only the tram current (750 Volt DC), e.g. line S1 from Hochstetten via Karlsruhe to Bad Herrenalb. This line shares tracks with freight trains between Lepoldshafen Frankfurter Straße and Welschneureuter Straße. That's similar to the train track in Waterloo. >> Tag the tracks as they look like. Sections where tracks share space with >> cars [1] are railway=tram. Where the trams are physically separated from >> the traffic [2], it's a railway=light_rail. That's how tagging works in >> cities which only have *one* tram/light rail system. If the city has two >> or three (low-floor tram and high-floor light rail; some German cities), >> it becomes more difficult because we also try to get the systems >> distinguishable (there are use cases). But that is not important now and >> the reason why Germans discuss correct tagging of trams, light rails and >> subways at their OSM Forum over multiple pages and threads. :-) >> > > There are not really spaces shared with cars, (thank goodness) so the only > appropriate tag along roads is light_rail. It does not share the space but according to your photos at Twitter the trackbed seems to be paved and cars could use it. A proper light rail has either ballast or grass between the tracks, i.e. car drivers will recognize that the cannot use this space. https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/jx4Z1BdL_nhENDjJMxHI2w http://www.regum.de/en/rail_products/lawn_track There is no sharp border between trams and light rails. Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Hi Am 2016-10-22 um 21:11 schrieb James: > Could lanes work? > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes > > Example: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes#Two_driving_directions > > What ever the train tag would be: > train:lanes:forward=no|yes > train:lanes:backwards=no|yes > Then for passenger cars would be opposite? > car:lanes:forward=yes|no > car:lanes:backwards=yes|no > > I'm not sure about this maybe Micheal has more insight on this I would use different tags but the ideas is similar. The right/back of the photo: lanes = 4 lanes:forward = 2 lanes:backward = 2 access:lanes:forward=no|yes access:lanes:backward=no|yes tram:lanes:forward = yes|no tram:lanes:backward = yes|no The left of the photo: lanes = 4 lanes:forward = 2 lanes:backward = 1 turn:lanes:forward= tram:lanes:backward = no|yes access:lanes:backward = yes |no Differences to James' suggestion: My suggestion is compatible with the widely used lanes tagging scheme. I used "backward", not "backwards" (see Taginfo). I used "tram", not "train". Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:train
Train does exist as a vehicle type
As for cars:
I think it would be motor_vehicle:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motor_vehicle
I got the vehicle types from:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Transport_mode_restrictions
On Oct 22, 2016 3:10 PM, wrote:
> Could lanes work?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes
>
> Example:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes#Two_driving_directions
>
> What ever the train tag would be:
> train:lanes:forward=no|yes
> train:lanes:backwards=no|yes
> Then for passenger cars would be opposite?
> car:lanes:forward=yes|no
> car:lanes:backwards=yes|no
>
> I'm not sure about this maybe Micheal has more insight on this
>
> On Oct 22, 2016 2:45 PM, "Mike Boos" wrote:
>
> Thanks Michael for your reply
>
>
>> Am 18.10.2016 um 03:52 schrieb Mike Boos:
>> > Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from
>> > centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections.
>> (A
>> > by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does
>> > anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side
>> of
>> > the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look
>> messy.
>>
>> Look at any German, Austrian or Swiss city of your choice where every
>> tram track is mapped as a single way in OSM (i.e. no tracks=2). I need
>> more details (show us photos) to give a useful answer.
>>
>
> Here's an example of an intersection that's largely complete:
> https://twitter.com/mikeboos/status/789892670453723136
> The tracks on the right/behind of most of the photos are centre-running
> between the two directions of car travel. Across the intersection, on the
> left of the photos, one track changes sides with the travel lane so that it
> lies between the sidewalk and the roadway. (The other track branches off
> onto the perpendicular road.)
>
> > There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight
>> > corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with
>> the
>> > heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However,
>> the
>> > use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train
>> > to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be
>> > operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of
>> > 'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the
>> dominant
>> > use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even
>> > though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This
>> > section is also largely complete.)
>>
>> Yes. If the track is still usable for freight trains (even if limited to
>> certain hours), it is a normal railway track and therefore gets
>> railway=rail. What you describe is called "Karlsuhe model" – don't
>> confuse it with our tagging scheme at OSM. ;-)
>>
>> I assume, that some people of Grand River Transit have visited the
>> German cities Karlsruhe and/or Kassel. :-) The first one has been
>> operating a tram-train system for more than 40 years.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_Stadtbahn
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel_RegioTram
>>
>
> I don't know if I'd characterize this as a "Karlsuhe model" train-tram -
> the system is entirely within a single urban area (even if it does span two
> adjacent cities), it just uses an existing rail corridor in some places.
> Unlike the Karlsuhe system, the vehicles have only a single operating
> voltage.
>
>
>> Tag the tracks as they look like. Sections where tracks share space with
>> cars [1] are railway=tram. Where the trams are physically separated from
>> the traffic [2], it's a railway=light_rail. That's how tagging works in
>> cities which only have *one* tram/light rail system. If the city has two
>> or three (low-floor tram and high-floor light rail; some German cities),
>> it becomes more difficult because we also try to get the systems
>> distinguishable (there are use cases). But that is not important now and
>> the reason why Germans discuss correct tagging of trams, light rails and
>> subways at their OSM Forum over multiple pages and threads. :-)
>>
>
> There are not really spaces shared with cars, (thank goodness) so the only
> appropriate tag along roads is light_rail.
>
> > Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station
>> > platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as
>> > railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some
>> > discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case
>> in
>> > Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131
>>
>> It is the case in Kaufungen near the city of Kassel which has a
>> Karlsruhe-like tram-train system ("Regiotram").
>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haltestelle_Niederka
>> ufungen_Mitte_02.JPG
>>
>> Yes, the track for heavy trains is a normal tra
Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Could lanes work?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes
Example:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes#Two_driving_directions
What ever the train tag would be:
train:lanes:forward=no|yes
train:lanes:backwards=no|yes
Then for passenger cars would be opposite?
car:lanes:forward=yes|no
car:lanes:backwards=yes|no
I'm not sure about this maybe Micheal has more insight on this
On Oct 22, 2016 2:45 PM, "Mike Boos" wrote:
Thanks Michael for your reply
> Am 18.10.2016 um 03:52 schrieb Mike Boos:
> > Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from
> > centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections. (A
> > by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does
> > anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side
> of
> > the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look
> messy.
>
> Look at any German, Austrian or Swiss city of your choice where every
> tram track is mapped as a single way in OSM (i.e. no tracks=2). I need
> more details (show us photos) to give a useful answer.
>
Here's an example of an intersection that's largely complete:
https://twitter.com/mikeboos/status/789892670453723136
The tracks on the right/behind of most of the photos are centre-running
between the two directions of car travel. Across the intersection, on the
left of the photos, one track changes sides with the travel lane so that it
lies between the sidewalk and the roadway. (The other track branches off
onto the perpendicular road.)
> There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight
> > corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with
> the
> > heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However,
> the
> > use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train
> > to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be
> > operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of
> > 'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the
> dominant
> > use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even
> > though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This
> > section is also largely complete.)
>
> Yes. If the track is still usable for freight trains (even if limited to
> certain hours), it is a normal railway track and therefore gets
> railway=rail. What you describe is called "Karlsuhe model" – don't
> confuse it with our tagging scheme at OSM. ;-)
>
> I assume, that some people of Grand River Transit have visited the
> German cities Karlsruhe and/or Kassel. :-) The first one has been
> operating a tram-train system for more than 40 years.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_Stadtbahn
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel_RegioTram
>
I don't know if I'd characterize this as a "Karlsuhe model" train-tram -
the system is entirely within a single urban area (even if it does span two
adjacent cities), it just uses an existing rail corridor in some places.
Unlike the Karlsuhe system, the vehicles have only a single operating
voltage.
> Tag the tracks as they look like. Sections where tracks share space with
> cars [1] are railway=tram. Where the trams are physically separated from
> the traffic [2], it's a railway=light_rail. That's how tagging works in
> cities which only have *one* tram/light rail system. If the city has two
> or three (low-floor tram and high-floor light rail; some German cities),
> it becomes more difficult because we also try to get the systems
> distinguishable (there are use cases). But that is not important now and
> the reason why Germans discuss correct tagging of trams, light rails and
> subways at their OSM Forum over multiple pages and threads. :-)
>
There are not really spaces shared with cars, (thank goodness) so the only
appropriate tag along roads is light_rail.
> Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station
> > platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as
> > railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some
> > discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case in
> > Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131
>
> It is the case in Kaufungen near the city of Kassel which has a
> Karlsruhe-like tram-train system ("Regiotram").
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haltestelle_Niederka
> ufungen_Mitte_02.JPG
>
> Yes, the track for heavy trains is a normal train track (railway=rail)
> while the outer ones can only be used by light rail vehicles due to the
> smaller structure gauge. Therefore the light rail track gets
> railway=light_rail. Because we map one way per track at the centerline
> of the track, there are two (in Kaufungen three) parallel tracks and all
> get railway:interlaced=yes. This is useful for routing engines.
>
> If there were up to date Mapillary photos, I could give more and better
> advice. (Ma
Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Thanks Michael for your reply
> Am 18.10.2016 um 03:52 schrieb Mike Boos:
> > Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from
> > centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections. (A
> > by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does
> > anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side
> of
> > the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look
> messy.
>
> Look at any German, Austrian or Swiss city of your choice where every
> tram track is mapped as a single way in OSM (i.e. no tracks=2). I need
> more details (show us photos) to give a useful answer.
>
Here's an example of an intersection that's largely complete:
https://twitter.com/mikeboos/status/789892670453723136
The tracks on the right/behind of most of the photos are centre-running
between the two directions of car travel. Across the intersection, on the
left of the photos, one track changes sides with the travel lane so that it
lies between the sidewalk and the roadway. (The other track branches off
onto the perpendicular road.)
> There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight
> > corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with
> the
> > heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However,
> the
> > use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train
> > to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be
> > operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of
> > 'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the
> dominant
> > use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even
> > though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This
> > section is also largely complete.)
>
> Yes. If the track is still usable for freight trains (even if limited to
> certain hours), it is a normal railway track and therefore gets
> railway=rail. What you describe is called "Karlsuhe model" – don't
> confuse it with our tagging scheme at OSM. ;-)
>
> I assume, that some people of Grand River Transit have visited the
> German cities Karlsruhe and/or Kassel. :-) The first one has been
> operating a tram-train system for more than 40 years.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_Stadtbahn
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel_RegioTram
I don't know if I'd characterize this as a "Karlsuhe model" train-tram -
the system is entirely within a single urban area (even if it does span two
adjacent cities), it just uses an existing rail corridor in some places.
Unlike the Karlsuhe system, the vehicles have only a single operating
voltage.
> Tag the tracks as they look like. Sections where tracks share space with
> cars [1] are railway=tram. Where the trams are physically separated from
> the traffic [2], it's a railway=light_rail. That's how tagging works in
> cities which only have *one* tram/light rail system. If the city has two
> or three (low-floor tram and high-floor light rail; some German cities),
> it becomes more difficult because we also try to get the systems
> distinguishable (there are use cases). But that is not important now and
> the reason why Germans discuss correct tagging of trams, light rails and
> subways at their OSM Forum over multiple pages and threads. :-)
>
There are not really spaces shared with cars, (thank goodness) so the only
appropriate tag along roads is light_rail.
> Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station
> > platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as
> > railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some
> > discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case in
> > Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131
>
> It is the case in Kaufungen near the city of Kassel which has a
> Karlsruhe-like tram-train system ("Regiotram").
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haltestelle_Niederka
> ufungen_Mitte_02.JPG
>
> Yes, the track for heavy trains is a normal train track (railway=rail)
> while the outer ones can only be used by light rail vehicles due to the
> smaller structure gauge. Therefore the light rail track gets
> railway=light_rail. Because we map one way per track at the centerline
> of the track, there are two (in Kaufungen three) parallel tracks and all
> get railway:interlaced=yes. This is useful for routing engines.
>
> If there were up to date Mapillary photos, I could give more and better
> advice. (Mapillary photos by pedestrians are better because are located
> on the sidewalk)
>
I think that makes sense. Here's an example of the gauntlet track at one of
the stations:
https://twitter.com/Canardiain/status/768589656581509122/photo/1
>
> Greetings from Karlsruhe
>
--
Mike Boos, MASc.
mike.b...@gmail.com
519-580-5804
http://real.uwaterloo.ca/~mboos
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Re: [Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Hi Mike,
Am 18.10.2016 um 03:52 schrieb Mike Boos:
> Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from
> centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections. (A
> by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does
> anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side of
> the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look messy.
Look at any German, Austrian or Swiss city of your choice where every
tram track is mapped as a single way in OSM (i.e. no tracks=2). I need
more details (show us photos) to give a useful answer.
> There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight
> corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with the
> heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However, the
> use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train
> to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be
> operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of
> 'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the dominant
> use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even
> though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This
> section is also largely complete.)
Yes. If the track is still usable for freight trains (even if limited to
certain hours), it is a normal railway track and therefore gets
railway=rail. What you describe is called "Karlsuhe model" – don't
confuse it with our tagging scheme at OSM. ;-)
I assume, that some people of Grand River Transit have visited the
German cities Karlsruhe and/or Kassel. :-) The first one has been
operating a tram-train system for more than 40 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_Stadtbahn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel_RegioTram
Tag the tracks as they look like. Sections where tracks share space with
cars [1] are railway=tram. Where the trams are physically separated from
the traffic [2], it's a railway=light_rail. That's how tagging works in
cities which only have *one* tram/light rail system. If the city has two
or three (low-floor tram and high-floor light rail; some German cities),
it becomes more difficult because we also try to get the systems
distinguishable (there are use cases). But that is not important now and
the reason why Germans discuss correct tagging of trams, light rails and
subways at their OSM Forum over multiple pages and threads. :-)
> Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station
> platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as
> railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some
> discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case in
> Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131
It is the case in Kaufungen near the city of Kassel which has a
Karlsruhe-like tram-train system ("Regiotram").
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haltestelle_Niederkaufungen_Mitte_02.JPG
Yes, the track for heavy trains is a normal train track (railway=rail)
while the outer ones can only be used by light rail vehicles due to the
smaller structure gauge. Therefore the light rail track gets
railway=light_rail. Because we map one way per track at the centerline
of the track, there are two (in Kaufungen three) parallel tracks and all
get railway:interlaced=yes. This is useful for routing engines.
If there were up to date Mapillary photos, I could give more and better
advice. (Mapillary photos by pedestrians are better because are located
on the sidewalk)
Greetings from Karlsruhe
Michael
[1]
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&pKey=EztyFQ4j2CHqglj_C-Uilg&lat=48.99870833326&lng=8.3937401&z=17
[2]
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?focus=photo&pKey=gejtgJYKdJrqZ_8M0zcDFQ&lat=50.935379&lng=6.957689&z=17
--
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
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[Talk-ca] Light rail mapping questions
Hello Waterloo Region is in the process of building a light rail system. This has meant a lot of streets are being reconstructed and changed, and now that large portions of the line are completed, there are lots of changes that will need to be made to map what is the largest infrastructure project local governments here have undertaken. There are similarities to some other Canadian light rail and streetcar systems (with dedicated rights of way), but also some unique features which I'd like to get some advice about how to map. Along on-road sections, the dedicated rail right-of-way moves from centre-running to the outsides of the street at certain intersections. (A by-product of some of the political compromises in route choices.) Does anyone know of any examples of tracks going from the centre to the side of the road with traffic lanes in OSM? I expect these are going to look messy. There are also portions of the line that will share track with a freight corridor. From what I can tell, convention appears to be to tag it with the heavier mode, i.e. railway=rail instead of railway=light_rail. However, the use of the track for freight is quite small - at most one freight train to/from Elmira uses the track at night, when light rail service won't be operating. Should the track still be marked as 'rail' instead of 'light_rail,' or should we attempt to have the tags represent the dominant use? (At present, some of these are tagged as railway=construction, even though the freight train has been consistently using it overnight. This section is also largely complete.) Further, there is gauntlet track to allow freight trains to pass station platforms. Do we tag the track closest to the platform as railway=light_rail and the outer track as railway=rail? There's some discussion here on gauntlet tracks here that suggests this is the case in Europe: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=29131 Thanks Mike -- Mike Boos ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
