Re: [Talk-GB] Closed software supplier ESRI creates OSM vector tile basemap

[Paul Norman]

On 2018-07-10 2:00 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
ESRI's free maps can be accessed as server-side tiles. See 
Leaflet-providers for some examples:


https://leaflet-extras.github.io/leaflet-providers/preview/

I'm not sure of the licence restrictions which apply to them, or any 
rate limits. But, from a technical point of view, it's just as easy to 
use as OSM Carto tiles. 


The ESRI layers listed on leaflet-providers are from a different host, 
and looking at URLs, I wasn't able to get raster tiles from the new 
vector basemap.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Closed software supplier ESRI creates OSM vector tile basemap

[Paul Norman]

On 2018-07-10 12:30 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:


I think it's a positive. One of the biggest issues with large-scale 
use of OSM is that OSM's own tile server isn't suited for high-volume 
use, but most of the alternative tile servers are rate-limited and 
require payment for larger volumes. If ESRI's tile server will, as the 
blog post suggests, be free to access, then it will be a more useful 
alternative for users who don't have the resources to host their own 
tile server.


It's not the same as OpenStreetMap Carto. OpenStreetMap Carto is written 
in CartoCSS and rendered server-side, what they have uses client-side 
rendering and lots of ESRI technology.


I think a more granular update schedule is unlikely to be an issue for 
most users. Even "every few weeks" is going to be a lot better than 
Bing and Google.


Yes, every few weeks is more than fast enough for most uses. osm.org is 
different because it's part of the feedback cycle, so minutely updates 
matter. Quarterly updates are common with many maps.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Petrol stations again

[Paul Norman]

On 3/8/2018 1:28 PM, SK53 wrote:
Remarks about individual items to be added which I have examined 
(mainly, I thin, for Ilya's benefit):


Were the 8 errors from the full set of 400, or a subsample of them?

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Paul Norman]

On 11/3/2017 10:51 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Philip, the shell.co.uk website gives the same opening hours for the Branting 
Hill station as the source dataset. Basically, everything in the dataset is the 
same, except for locations, which have been improved by the Navads team.


What percentage of the opening hours in Shell's dataset do you estimate 
are wrong?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[Paul Norman]

On 4/27/2017 12:26 PM, Brian Prangle wrote:
Apart from some posts  about the problems with email notifications of 
changeset discussions, there has been nothing to indicate where I take 
this import. I guess that's because the initative is really down to me.


I've annotated Harry's Import wiki page 
 
with some comments and ideas. I've copied below what I think are the 
relevant bits from the wiki page and I look forward to resolving the 
issues as I'm keen to complete the import.


Don't forget the need to consult with imports@ as part of the 
consultation with the community.
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[Talk-GB] Local chapter application by OpenStreetMap United Kingdom

[Paul Norman]

The OSMF has received an application from OpenStreetMap United Kingdom
(OSM UK) for their organization to become the OSMF local chapter for the
United Kingdom (including the Isle of Man and Channel Islands). For
consultation and as part of due diligence we are asking the UK community
for comments on the application. Because there is not just one mailing
list for the region, this is being sent to talk-gb@, talk-scotland@, and
talk-ie@. If you are aware of other communication channels the UK local
community uses, please let them or me know.

If you wish to raise concerns about the application privately, you can
do so by emailing me.

Details of the application can be found at
http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Applications/United_Kingdom
and the standard template agreement that would be signed is at
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Template_agreement.

More information on local chapters can be found at
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/FAQ

Paul Norman
OpenStreetMap Foundation

Name & Registered Office:
Openstreetmap Foundation
132 Maney Hill Road
Sutton Coldfield
B72 1JU
United Kingdom
A company limited by guarantee, registered in England and Wales.
Registration No. 05912761.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Technical Help

[Paul Norman]

On 10/28/2016 5:28 AM, Brian Prangle wrote:


There's a small amount of seed funding and we need to size a server 
and storage that will serve OSM tiles for the West Midlands 
(Geofabrik's download is 37MB for an osm.pbf file). We would need a 
production server with an initial guesstimate hit rate of 5000 per day 
and a dev server, and a backup for both.


Some ballpark estimates

Disk: Both the rendering data and slim data (if doing daily updates with 
change files) are each about 8x PBF size. Add more for tile caching and 
you probably want 4-8GB of space to be safe. Any VM you get will have 
this. You don't need it with enough RAM and such a small DB, but SSD 
storage is a plus.


Ram: 2GB minimum. If you only have 1GB you have to worry about how much 
the OS is consuming. This lets everything be in memory.


CPU: Depends on how concurrent the peak load, caching, how fresh the 
tiles need to be, etc. I'd go with at least 2 threads or cores. On 
average you need less, but a single user can easily cause enough load 
that you want 2+ metatiles to be rendered at once


5000 hits per day is probably in the ballpark of 5 tiles per second 
peak. It all depends on how spread out the load is, how many tiles per 
hit, etc. A modern CPU can render 1 metatile (64 tiles) in one second 
per CPU thread. Faster in your case with a smaller database.


I recommend having both production servers running and splitting the 
load between them so their caches remain up to date.


You want to consider

- How old you allow data to become
- How old are the tiles you are prepared to serve
- If you plan to update daily from geofabrik diffs or to reload the 
database completely


If you were purchasing physical hardware I'd recommend considering CPU 
requirements more carefully, but since you're almost certainly using 
VMs, it might be better to start testing.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Users tagging Farmyard as place=farm (Was Summer quarterly project)

[Paul Norman]

On 9/14/2016 7:37 AM, Dave F wrote:
From the examples posted it's clear the recent rise is due to the iD 
editor's presets.


There have been mentions of OSM Carto and iD presets causing an increase 
in place=farm usage.


Support for place=farm was added to the default style on osm.org back in 
2011.[1] iD with place=farm support was released on 2015-04-30 with iD 
v1.7.1. The big increases in the rate of tagging place=farm were in July 
2013, January 2015, and January 2016. The usage seems uncorrelated with 
presets or renderer support.



[1]: 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/mapnik-stylesheets/commit/c4727005f89ae603d43c0e49778b57f07f8eb036


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Re: [Talk-GB] Schools

[Paul Norman]

On 8/5/2016 5:59 AM, Andy Allan wrote:

Our mapping conventions are based on our mappers, not consumers. As
you say, it's easy for the consumers to handle both situations, but
it's harder for mappers to deal with multipolygons-with-one-outer than
just a basic closed way.


Speaking as a data consumer and a maintainer of the major software which 
handles multipolygons, I much prefer mapping to be done as a basic 
closed way instead of a multipolygon with one outer. I support 
converting the latter to the former where it exists already. This agrees 
with what I have heard from other major data consumers.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UKOSM - technical aspects

[Paul Norman]

On 1/10/2016 1:47 PM, Harry Wood wrote:

For an OSMUK website you mean? I have a few ideas about that, and would like to 
be involved.

Certainly I'd like to see something done in an openly editable way so it's not too much 
of a centralised "request changes from the chief" situation. Code in github is 
a great way to help with that. Maybe*content*  in github too, if we use some file-based 
system. Although I have some whacky wiki content syndication ideas too.

I've just set up an osmuk organisation on github as a placeholder for this 
stuff:

https://github.com/osmuk


I strongly recommend some kind of static page generator, e.g. Jekyll. 
Initially you're unlikely to need anything else, and maintenance is 
substantially easier than dynamic options.


You may later need something involving server-side programming, but no 
website yet, you should try to get off the ground quickly and leave more 
complicated features until later.


Jekyll also has the advantage that you can use GitHub pages for hosting 
if you want. It's not always the best option, but if it does work it's 
one of the lowest maintenance ones.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths and Footways

[Paul Norman]

On 8/17/2015 3:25 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote:
I'm surprised if this is just England and Wales as I would have 
thought some other country has some way of documenting paths in a 
legal context and as such this may be relevant for other countries


I'm not aware of any countries which quite have the complexities of 
PRoW. There's *some* similar elements elsewhere, but nothing as 
wide-spread or important.


but the real question is: would having some way to show the 
importance of particular paths/footways (just like roads have a 
classification) help, and if yes, how should we do this?


Right now the best approaches I've seen involve making use of walking 
networks, but it can be technically a pain.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths and Footways

[Paul Norman]

On 8/16/2015 1:57 PM, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote:
Until I provided a counter-example there, the only example on 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747 was of a 
well-mapped central European city.  If there is evaluation of the 
results in both rural and urban settings in multiple countries, it's 
not getting posted to Github.


Pictures on Github issues are just previews. Evaluating a PR requires 
checking out the changes and using Kosmtik, Tilemill, or something else.


If you feel that a certain type of area isn't being reviewed, please do 
so when looking at PRs.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK/GB OpenStreetMap survey results

[Paul Norman]

On 8/6/2015 2:07 PM, Antje wrote:
Forking the map style with stronger British road colours and then 
getting that forked road style onto the main site once the default 
style goes “international”.


After all, we didn’t call it “open” for nothing!

I'd approach this with caution, for two reasons

The first is that developing a new render style is one of the items more 
disagreed with. Providing server space would be necessary for others to 
host the tile layer so others can view it without installing it 
themselves, and this was also a disagreed item. On the other hand, this 
is a fairly well defined technical task, while items like raise 
awareness and encourage more mappers are fairly fuzzy and harder to 
define clear actions for.


The second is technical. Richard F has already suggested using a 
different stack[1]. Even if using the same stack, openstreetmap-carto 
has nearly a decade of legacy code and cartography, not all good. It is 
also one of the largest and most complex stylesheets, with active 
development. Unless the only changes are simply redefining some colours, 
you will be unable to keep your fork up with osm-carto, and you will 
certainly want the bugfixes we do, even if you don't want the new features.


When starting a style, you also need to make sure you have the 
cartographers to maintain it. I know the UK OSM community has good 
cartographers, but I also know most of them are very busy with their own 
styles. It can be a lot of work, and it tends to be draining with the 
attacks you get.


I don't mean to sound discouraging. I'd love to see a style designed for 
the UK, particularly a vector one. I just know first-hand that a fairly 
complete style is a good chunk of work, be it vector or raster.


[1]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-July/017629.html

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Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Paul Norman]

On 8/5/2014 12:06 AM, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. 
That's why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it 
internationaly? 
There is a general understanding that name:xx is for the name in the 
language xx, not a translation of the name.


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Re: [Talk-GB] New mapper has imported all Nottingham street lights

[Paul Norman]

On 7/29/2014 1:51 PM, SK53 wrote:
Don't need to say much more, other than it's an undiscussed import and 
if we'd thought it would be useful could have done it anytime in the 
past 18 months.


Changeset is : https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/24412110

Will plan to revert in 1 days time if no further action by the mapper.
I've contacted the user. As the import didn't meet some of the basic 
consultation/documentation requirements and appears to be cleanly 
revertable, I've started a revert.


Paul Norman
For the Data Working Group

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Re: [Talk-GB] Adding links to Wikidata (and Wikipedia?)

[Paul Norman]

On 2014-06-08 1:28 PM, Rob Nickerson wrote:

What would you consider a demonstration of success exactly?

Tom


Tom,

Measuring the success of a bot can be done in the same way that the 
success is measured in a statistical model; Type I and Type II errors. 
So for example, if the test is to attach wikidata tags to churches then:


Measured that way, I could code a bot that sets name=foo for all objects 
with a name tag. Assuming I'm decent at coding, I could have zero Type I 
and Type II errors, and by those criteria this mechanical edit would be 
a success.


Success should be measured against the reasons for the mechanical edit. 
Adding wikidata tags isn't the reason, it's what it does.


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Re: [Talk-GB] [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server?

[Paul Norman]

 From: Nick Whitelegg [mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk] 
 Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 4:59 AM
 Subject: [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server?
 
 So I'm wondering whether we could, if enough people raise contributions, 
 have an OSM read only, hobbyist server which could be used to host 
 not-for-profit, open source (only) projects. it could be either global 
 or just for the UK (or any other individual country). It could contain a 
 copy of the OSM PostGIS database then developers could be free to host 
 server side code which delivers that data in whatever format fits their 
 own needs (GeoJSON, some binary vector format, or anything else). 

You should keep in mind the dev server (errol), both for running 
whatever you want to and when planning additional resources if you need 
them. You can find information on the dev server at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_the_dev_server. 

The dev server has an osm2pgsql database, kept up to date every hour and 
imported with hstore and extra attributes (metadata). This is a fairly 
flexible schema, but it's not too widely know that it's running as a 
shared resource. It is suitable for rendering and many types of analysis 
queries, and more flexible than pgsnapshot, apidb or another schema 
closer to the original OSM data. The database is on the RAID5 array of 
7200RPM drives, so it's not exactly fast IO, but it keeps up and isn't 
maxed out. 

The server is of course a shared resource, and suffers from the same 
problem of any shared resource: others badly written code may end up 
impeding your access. Of course what you're proposing can suffer from 
that same problem too. 

The EWG has periodically discussed how the dev server could be more 
useful, and I know reasonable feedback and ideas are welcome, either at 
the meetings on Monday 
(http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Engineering_Working_Group#Meetings) 
or on the dev@ mailing list. 



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Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD

[Paul Norman]

 From: Paul Norman [mailto:penor...@mac.com]
 Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 3:03 PM
 To: 'SomeoneElse'; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD
 
 It's worth pointing out that iD doesn't actually have an imagery list.
 It inherits its from the editor-imagery-index project at
 http://osmlab.github.io/editor-imagery-index/, which is for
 OpenStreetMap editing, not historical mapping or a general list of all
 possible imagery.

There is now https://github.com/osmlab/historic-imagery-index, an imagery
index that takes its own list of historic layers and combines it with the 
layers in editor-imagery-index.

To use it in JOSM all you need to do is modify imagery.layers.sites in
advanced preferences to add
http://osmlab.github.io/historic-imagery-index/imagery.xml

I've added some layers that appear have value purely for historical 
mapping to it and opened the pull request 
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-imagery-index/pull/35 to remove them 
from editor-imagery-index.

Are there any *non*-historical uses for NLS - Bartholomew Half Inch, 
1897-1907; NLS - OS 1-inch 7th Series 1955-61; or OS New Popular 
Edition historic.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD

[Paul Norman]

 From: SomeoneElse [mailto:li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk]
 Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 4:44 AM
 To: Paul Norman; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD
 
 Paul Norman wrote:
  It's worth pointing out that iD doesn't actually have an imagery list.
  It inherits its from the editor-imagery-index project at
  http://osmlab.github.io/editor-imagery-index/, which is for
  OpenStreetMap editing, not historical mapping or a general list of all
  possible imagery.
 
 Thanks Paul - that's something that I hadn't realised.  From the
 comments above, presumably the open historical map people are using
 the same list rather than one tailored to historical mapping though?

They shouldn't be. The editor-imagery-index project is targeted at the 
needs of OpenStreetMap, not of other projects. With how the index is setup
with each layer being its own file it is trivial to automatically copy in
additional files before running make.

In fact, there are layers in editor-imagery-index which can't be used 
outside of OSM.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD

[Paul Norman]

 From: SomeoneElse [mailto:li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk]
 Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Editor backbground layers in iD
 
 Rob Nickerson wrote:
 
  2). iD is a general purpose editor. It can be used for
  OpenHistoricalMap too.
 
 Indeed - perhaps I should have been clearer that I'm talking about the
 instance in use on the OSM site used to edit the OSM map, not any other
 instance which presumably could feature any layers that it liked.

It's worth pointing out that iD doesn't actually have an imagery list. It
inherits its from the editor-imagery-index project at 
http://osmlab.github.io/editor-imagery-index/, which is for OpenStreetMap
editing, not historical mapping or a general list of all possible imagery.

  So how do we deal with an overload of map layers? I think it's a tool
  issue.
 
 Indeed - and I'm sure that the iD developers would say patches welcome
 at this point!

Dealing with it from a UI perspective is difficult, and I get the 
impression that's the main issue, not the coding once the UI is figured 
out. 


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[Talk-GB] iD en_GB localization

[Paul Norman]

Unlike the OSM website, the default language for the iD editor is en_US. 
Because there are differences between en_US and en_GB, I've had an en_GB 
translation added, but translators are needed to fill it out. 

Instructions for translating iD are at 
https://github.com/systemed/iD/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#translating 
and the en_GB translation can be found at 
https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/id-editor/language/en_GB/. 

With my background I can easily shift between en_CA, en_GB and en_US so 
I don't always notice when something is written in one dialect or the 
other, so help is needed filling out the translations. So far I've done 
a few obvious translations and undone conversions of the base text to 
en_US. 

Obviously because en_US and en_GB are relatively similar not everything 
will need translating, but it'd be nice to get what needs translating 
done. 



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