Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mark Goodge]

On 29/12/2017 23:23, Mick Orridge wrote:

The ONS postcode file (Open Government Licence other than BT postcodes 
for NI) for August 2017 (download here:- 
https://ons.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=1e4a246b91c34178a55aab047413f29b) 
holds terminated postcodes. It's entry for BD5 8JR shows a terminated 
date of 2009 06. I guess the replacement postcode could be narrowed down 
using the date introduced field along with perhaps the OA01 field (2001 
census output area) plus easting and northing.


That's a nice idea, but unfortunately it doesn't quite work :-)

The correct postcode according to PAF, BD6 1DA, was introduced in 1980 
(the same year as BD5 8JR, as it happens), so there isn't a one to one 
mapping of old to new - instead, properties formerly in BD5 8JR seem to 
have been reassigned to other existing postcodes rather than to a new one.


Also, BD6 1DA isn't the nearest current postcode to BD5 8JR - there are 
a couple of other BD5 xxx postcodes that are closer.


It's speculation, but my guess is that BD5 8JR was simply abolished and 
all the properties in it reassigned to the BD6 postal area. Bear in mind 
that it's not just a different postcode, but also a different district 
(and therefore a different outbound code). Looking at the boundary maps 
of the postcode districts, it looks as if Rooley Avenue and all the 
roads immediately off it were moved from BD5 to BD6. So the change was 
probably for operational reasons, quite possibly in response to new 
development in the area that affected the pattern of mail delivery.


Going back to the previous point about using neighbouring properties as 
a guide, the Shell filling station only has one neighbour (on the other 
side it's right up against the junction). That neighbour is Pearls 
Tearoom & Patisserie, which publishes its own postcode as BD6 1DA:


https://www.facebook.com/pearlstearoom/

Also, looking at the map, the tearoom shares an entrance and car park 
with the filling station (it's a typical "cafe at a petrol station" 
layout). Given that BD6 1DA isn't a single-user postcode, I think that's 
sufficient observational evidence to assign it to the filling station as 
well - unless the filling station itself had a single-user postcode 
(which is unlikely), there's no other postcode it could plausibly be.


Personally, I'd be happy with that. Even though we know, from the PAF, 
that BD6 1DA is correct, there's enough non-PAF evidence to support it. 
If anyone feels like editing it, it would probably be worth adding a 
note to say that the source of the postcode is extrapolated from a known 
neighbour, just to be on the safe side. But that ought to be enough to 
cover it.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mick Orridge]

On 28/12/17 22:33, Warin wrote:

On 29-Dec-17 07:28 AM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 28/12/2017 19:31, Lester Caine wrote:

Get the return address right ...

On 28/12/17 16:12, Colin Spiller wrote:
I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & 
gregrs

useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley
Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an
incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This
postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM
postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.


PAF file has ...
Shell Filling Station
Rooley Avenue
BRADFORD
BD6 1DA

and BD5 8JR is not listed having been deleted in 2009
http://checkmypostcode.uk/bd58jr so the real problem is does one leave
the faulty postcode in place because we can't use the PAF data or do we
validate postcodes against the codepoint database and remove those that
are not listed


It's an interesting conundrum, on several levels. We can certainly 
validate against Codepoint Open or the ONSPD, as these are open data. 
So if they say the postcode is impossible (because it's defunct), 
then we can definitely delete it if we want to.


Replacing it with the correct postcode, though, is harder. We'd need 
a source that isn't derived from PAF. But Googling for this 
particular station, all the sources have the old, incorrect postcode 
- even Google itself! (I would expect they're all using the Shell 
data, of course).


So that leaves us with three options, at least initially:

1. Leave it as is. We know it's wrong, but it's consistent with every 
other source, and it's from the only canonical source.


2. Replace it with the right one. More useful, but potentially risky 
from a licensing perspective.


3. Delete it and leave the entry with no postcode. Probably the best 
we can do as far as accuracy is concerned (in line with the general 
principle that data is better missing than wrong, if it can't be 
right), and avoids any licence conflict. But this is the least useful 
for users of the data (since, in this case, even the wrong postcode 
will identify the location in practice - for obvious reasons, Royal 
Mail will deliver to defunct postcodes long after they have been 
deleted, and many sat-navs will work with defunct postcodes too).


Maybe the best solution is to leave it alone for now, and see if we 
can persuade Shell to fix it. Deleting the postcode risks it being 
re-added by someone else who spots its absence and decides to be 
helpful, without realising that if they use the RM postcode finder to 
validate it that isn't compatible with OSM's licence.


Usually a note is used to make comments to other mappers. In this case 
a note to say that post code xxx is defunct would explain the 
situation. Possibly a tag 'defunct:postcode=xxx would also be 
explanatory.


Could the post code be derived from surrounding features?
I don't know how detailed the post codes there are .. but if features 
in OSM surrounding it were of the same post code (and correct) then 
they could be used to derive the post code?
The ONS postcode file (Open Government Licence other than BT postcodes 
for NI) for August 2017 (download here:- 
https://ons.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=1e4a246b91c34178a55aab047413f29b) 
holds terminated postcodes. It's entry for BD5 8JR shows a terminated 
date of 2009 06. I guess the replacement postcode could be narrowed down 
using the date introduced field along with perhaps the OA01 field (2001 
census output area) plus easting and northing.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ian Caldwell]

It was the only house between two junctions on a road. It was in the
country.


Ian

On 29 December 2017 at 13:08, Mark Goodge  wrote:

>
>
> On 29/12/2017 11:41, Ian Caldwell wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 29 December 2017 at 10:47, Mark Goodge  m...@good-stuff.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>> since a filling station isn't going to be large enough to have a
>> single-user postcode
>>
>>
>> Not necessarily I used to own a three bedroom house that had its own
>> postcode.
>>
>
> That sounds a little implausible. Are you sure it wasn't just the only
> *house* within that postcode? Or was it, possibly, the only remaining
> property with that postcode after others have been reassigned (or
> demolished)?
>
> (It's relatively easy to check, if you give us the postcode, even if it's
> now a defunct one).
>
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mark Goodge]

On 29/12/2017 11:41, Ian Caldwell wrote:




On 29 December 2017 at 10:47, Mark Goodge > wrote:


since a filling station isn't going to be large enough to have a
single-user postcode


Not necessarily I used to own a three bedroom house that had its own 
postcode.


That sounds a little implausible. Are you sure it wasn't just the only 
*house* within that postcode? Or was it, possibly, the only remaining 
property with that postcode after others have been reassigned (or 
demolished)?


(It's relatively easy to check, if you give us the postcode, even if 
it's now a defunct one).


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ian Caldwell]

On 29 December 2017 at 10:47, Mark Goodge  wrote:

> since a filling station isn't going to be large enough to have a
> single-user postcode
>
>
Not necessarily I used to own a three bedroom house that had its own
postcode.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mark Goodge]

On 28/12/2017 22:33, Warin wrote:


Could the post code be derived from surrounding features?
I don't know how detailed the post codes there are .. but if features in 
OSM surrounding it were of the same post code (and correct) then they 
could be used to derive the post code?


It will almost certainly share a postcode with at least one neighbouring 
property, yes. A filling station is not going to receive enough post to 
justify a "large user" postcode. So if it's surrounded by properties 
that all have the same postcode, then that's definite enough. But if one 
neighbour has one postcode, and a different neighbour has a different 
one, then we can't be certain which is correct for this property... :-)


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mark Goodge]

On 29/12/2017 08:30, Adam Snape wrote:

Hi,

I don't think we would delete a postcode found in other Open Data just 
on the basis of it not being in Codepoint Open; the error could lie in 
Codepoint Open itself. I suggest that a FIXME would be appropriate where 
two sources appear to contradict each other.


There are two open data sources of postcodes: Codepoint Open and the ONS 
Postcode Database. Ultimately, both of those are populated from Royal 
Mail data, since it's RM that assigns postcodes. So if CPO and ONSPD 
agree that a postcode is deleted (and I'm not aware of any instance in 
which they've disagreed), that's canonical.


I think a FIXME is probably a good solution here; hopefully there will 
be somebody on the ground who can verify the correct postcode simply by 
comparison with known postcodes for neighbouring properties (since a 
filling station isn't going to be large enough to have a single-user 
postcode).


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Adam Snape]

Hi,

I don't think we would delete a postcode found in other Open Data just on
the basis of it not being in Codepoint Open; the error could lie in
Codepoint Open itself. I suggest that a FIXME would be appropriate where
two sources appear to contradict each other.

Of course in this case we know the correct answer (assuming it is accurate)
but that is only through the PAF. Speaking generally, I don't think it's
good practice to be using non-free resources like this to research
information which is not clear from open data, even if we don't use the
information directly. The problems are twofold, namely that such an
approach is using a unusable sources to validate open data and there is a
risk that mistakes or Easter eggs on the source could lead to the deletion
of valid data.

Kind regards,

Adam

On 28 Dec 2017 8:29 p.m., "Mark Goodge"  wrote:

>
>
> On 28/12/2017 19:31, Lester Caine wrote:
>
>> Get the return address right ...
>>
>> On 28/12/17 16:12, Colin Spiller wrote:
>>
>>> I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & gregrs
>>> useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley
>>> Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an
>>> incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This
>>> postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM
>>> postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.
>>>
>>
>> PAF file has ...
>> Shell Filling Station
>> Rooley Avenue
>> BRADFORD
>> BD6 1DA
>>
>> and BD5 8JR is not listed having been deleted in 2009
>> http://checkmypostcode.uk/bd58jr so the real problem is does one leave
>> the faulty postcode in place because we can't use the PAF data or do we
>> validate postcodes against the codepoint database and remove those that
>> are not listed
>>
>
> It's an interesting conundrum, on several levels. We can certainly
> validate against Codepoint Open or the ONSPD, as these are open data. So if
> they say the postcode is impossible (because it's defunct), then we can
> definitely delete it if we want to.
>
> Replacing it with the correct postcode, though, is harder. We'd need a
> source that isn't derived from PAF. But Googling for this particular
> station, all the sources have the old, incorrect postcode - even Google
> itself! (I would expect they're all using the Shell data, of course).
>
> So that leaves us with three options, at least initially:
>
> 1. Leave it as is. We know it's wrong, but it's consistent with every
> other source, and it's from the only canonical source.
>
> 2. Replace it with the right one. More useful, but potentially risky from
> a licensing perspective.
>
> 3. Delete it and leave the entry with no postcode. Probably the best we
> can do as far as accuracy is concerned (in line with the general principle
> that data is better missing than wrong, if it can't be right), and avoids
> any licence conflict. But this is the least useful for users of the data
> (since, in this case, even the wrong postcode will identify the location in
> practice - for obvious reasons, Royal Mail will deliver to defunct
> postcodes long after they have been deleted, and many sat-navs will work
> with defunct postcodes too).
>
> Maybe the best solution is to leave it alone for now, and see if we can
> persuade Shell to fix it. Deleting the postcode risks it being re-added by
> someone else who spots its absence and decides to be helpful, without
> realising that if they use the RM postcode finder to validate it that isn't
> compatible with OSM's licence.
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Warin]

On 29-Dec-17 07:28 AM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 28/12/2017 19:31, Lester Caine wrote:

Get the return address right ...

On 28/12/17 16:12, Colin Spiller wrote:
I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & 
gregrs

useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley
Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an
incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This
postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM
postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.


PAF file has ...
Shell Filling Station
Rooley Avenue
BRADFORD
BD6 1DA

and BD5 8JR is not listed having been deleted in 2009
http://checkmypostcode.uk/bd58jr so the real problem is does one leave
the faulty postcode in place because we can't use the PAF data or do we
validate postcodes against the codepoint database and remove those that
are not listed


It's an interesting conundrum, on several levels. We can certainly 
validate against Codepoint Open or the ONSPD, as these are open data. 
So if they say the postcode is impossible (because it's defunct), then 
we can definitely delete it if we want to.


Replacing it with the correct postcode, though, is harder. We'd need a 
source that isn't derived from PAF. But Googling for this particular 
station, all the sources have the old, incorrect postcode - even 
Google itself! (I would expect they're all using the Shell data, of 
course).


So that leaves us with three options, at least initially:

1. Leave it as is. We know it's wrong, but it's consistent with every 
other source, and it's from the only canonical source.


2. Replace it with the right one. More useful, but potentially risky 
from a licensing perspective.


3. Delete it and leave the entry with no postcode. Probably the best 
we can do as far as accuracy is concerned (in line with the general 
principle that data is better missing than wrong, if it can't be 
right), and avoids any licence conflict. But this is the least useful 
for users of the data (since, in this case, even the wrong postcode 
will identify the location in practice - for obvious reasons, Royal 
Mail will deliver to defunct postcodes long after they have been 
deleted, and many sat-navs will work with defunct postcodes too).


Maybe the best solution is to leave it alone for now, and see if we 
can persuade Shell to fix it. Deleting the postcode risks it being 
re-added by someone else who spots its absence and decides to be 
helpful, without realising that if they use the RM postcode finder to 
validate it that isn't compatible with OSM's licence.


Usually a note is used to make comments to other mappers. In this case a 
note to say that post code xxx is defunct would explain the situation. 
Possibly a tag 'defunct:postcode=xxx would also be explanatory.


Could the post code be derived from surrounding features?
I don't know how detailed the post codes there are .. but if features in 
OSM surrounding it were of the same post code (and correct) then they 
could be used to derive the post code?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Mark Goodge]

On 28/12/2017 19:31, Lester Caine wrote:

Get the return address right ...

On 28/12/17 16:12, Colin Spiller wrote:

I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & gregrs
useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley
Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an
incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This
postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM
postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.


PAF file has ...
Shell Filling Station
Rooley Avenue
BRADFORD
BD6 1DA

and BD5 8JR is not listed having been deleted in 2009
http://checkmypostcode.uk/bd58jr so the real problem is does one leave
the faulty postcode in place because we can't use the PAF data or do we
validate postcodes against the codepoint database and remove those that
are not listed


It's an interesting conundrum, on several levels. We can certainly 
validate against Codepoint Open or the ONSPD, as these are open data. So 
if they say the postcode is impossible (because it's defunct), then we 
can definitely delete it if we want to.


Replacing it with the correct postcode, though, is harder. We'd need a 
source that isn't derived from PAF. But Googling for this particular 
station, all the sources have the old, incorrect postcode - even Google 
itself! (I would expect they're all using the Shell data, of course).


So that leaves us with three options, at least initially:

1. Leave it as is. We know it's wrong, but it's consistent with every 
other source, and it's from the only canonical source.


2. Replace it with the right one. More useful, but potentially risky 
from a licensing perspective.


3. Delete it and leave the entry with no postcode. Probably the best we 
can do as far as accuracy is concerned (in line with the general 
principle that data is better missing than wrong, if it can't be right), 
and avoids any licence conflict. But this is the least useful for users 
of the data (since, in this case, even the wrong postcode will identify 
the location in practice - for obvious reasons, Royal Mail will deliver 
to defunct postcodes long after they have been deleted, and many 
sat-navs will work with defunct postcodes too).


Maybe the best solution is to leave it alone for now, and see if we can 
persuade Shell to fix it. Deleting the postcode risks it being re-added 
by someone else who spots its absence and decides to be helpful, without 
realising that if they use the RM postcode finder to validate it that 
isn't compatible with OSM's licence.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Lester Caine]

Get the return address right ...

On 28/12/17 16:12, Colin Spiller wrote:
> I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & gregrs
> useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley
> Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an
> incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This
> postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM
> postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.

PAF file has ...
Shell Filling Station
Rooley Avenue
BRADFORD
BD6 1DA

and BD5 8JR is not listed having been deleted in 2009
http://checkmypostcode.uk/bd58jr so the real problem is does one leave
the faulty postcode in place because we can't use the PAF data or do we
validate postcodes against the codepoint database and remove those that
are not listed

> The node Fuel #5210358416 
> has these tags:
> 
> 
> Tags
> 
> addr:postcode
> 
> BD5 8JR
> amenity 
> fuel 
> brand Shell
> opening_hours
> 
> 24/7
> phone +44
> 1274 306188 
> ref:navads_shell  NVDS353-12038573
> 
> 
> but no street or city. The whole thing seems odd to me.


-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Mabbett]

On 26 November 2017 at 14:52, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> This would make obvious errors easier to spot, one example I found was
> a closing time of 16:00 which is an obvious error that does not need
> local knowledge.

At a supermarket filling station near me, the "kiosk" actually closes at a
time not far different from this. fter that, fuel is only available from
self-service pumps - and is available from them 24/7.

Given the increasing ubiquity of the latter, plus pay-for-water and
pay-for-air machines, we need to be careful with "closing" times.

[Wonders off, muttering about when air was free...]

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
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[Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Colin,

BD5 8JP is but a stone's throw away. I guess this got picked up then
incorrectly typed and hence the 8JR ending.

Luckily OSM is editable (!) so if you can find a better source of free data
then please update.

Regards,
Rob

P.s. you can see all this on the postcode centroid map which highlights
that this is borderline BD5 and BD6.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Colin Spiller]

I've been adding postcodes in the Bradford BD area using Robert & gregrs 
useful tools. I've just noticed that the Shell station at the Rooley 
Lane / Rooley Avenue junction BD5 8JR is now reported as having an 
incorrect postal unit (the final two letters of the postcode). This 
postcode appears widely on the internet for this site, but the RM 
postcode finder thinks it should be Rooley Avenue, BD6 1DA.


The node Fuel #5210358416  
has these tags:



   Tags

addr:postcode 
 
BD5 8JR
amenity  
fuel 

brand Shell
opening_hours 
 
24/7
phone  	+44 
1274 306188 

ref:navads_shellNVDS353-12038573


but no street or city. The whole thing seems odd to me.

Colin


On 20/12/17 12:32, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Hi folks,

I have just uploaded the fuel stations:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/54785385

Thank you everyone who participated. I noticed there has been many "fixme" tags 
filled during the validation. You can see them all using Overpass API:

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/tUW

Ilya
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--
Colin Spiller
co...@thespillers.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi folks,

I have just uploaded the fuel stations:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/54785385

Thank you everyone who participated. I noticed there has been many "fixme" tags 
filled during the validation. You can see them all using Overpass API:

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/tUW

Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi,

I've just pushed a big update to the auditing service. You can now re-check 
skipped objects. But the "skipped" flag is only stored since today. If you 
want, Brian, I can reset your validation history for the entire project, so you 
could re-check all stations.

Also I can grant you admin rights when you have a osm_conflate json file ready 
to be validated.

We are just 130 stations away from the import being fully checked: 
http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell

Rob, I agree that the amenity=fuel tag should go on a territory, not on 
individual objects. That would be in line with other amenity values: school, 
university, parking, place_of_worship etc.

Robert, when you find a phone on an amenity=fuel object, you use it to call not 
a fuel pump and not a building. Amenity=fuel marks not a physical object, it is 
an abstract entity called "fuel station", with pumps, service roads, buildings 
and shops. Thus, all the extra properties, like phone or website, should go 
along the amenity=fuel tag, and not be placed on elements of its infrastructure.

When you map a fuel station with a node, it does not matter where exactly it is 
placed. The point is, when a driver plots a route to a fuel station, they 
should get to the entrance of it, and the rest does not matter. Mapping a 
station as a polygon places the virtual station point anywhere inside that 
polygon — but that, again, does not matter in practical use.

Ilya

> 8 дек. 2017 г., в 18:43, Brian Prangle  написал(а):
> 
> Hi Ilya
> 
> Great tool but it would be nice to be able to be able togo back to items you 
> skipped
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian
> 
> On 29 November 2017 at 14:49, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> Hi Phil,
> 
> I had a few free hours today, so I added the table view:
> 
> http://audit.osmz.ru/table/shell
> 
> Though I'm not sure a fuel station cannot close at 16:00 — for example, a 
> small one that serves agricultural needs.
> 
> Ilya
> 
> > 26 нояб. 2017 г., в 17:52, Philip Barnes  написал(а):
> >
> > On Sun, 2017-11-26 at 16:46 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> >> Hi Rob, thanks for looking at the website.
> >>
> >> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. That is a working tool for validating
> >> an import. Please open http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell , click
> >> "Validate the import" and check at least a hundred points. You can
> >> move a point when it's off, and you can choose which tags go on an
> >> object.
> >>
> >> If you remember writing me about some of the fuel stations, please
> >> find these on the "browse points" screen, click "edit this" and put
> >> changes there.
> >>
> >> I'll plan to do the import when at least a half of the points have
> >> been looked at — depending on a speed. I will check a few hundred
> >> myself, but me being not in UK, I doubt it would help increase the
> >> quality.
> >>
> > Would it be possible to display this import in a table form, a line for
> > each object and a column for each tag?
> >
> > This would make obvious errors easier to spot, one example I found was
> > a closing time of 16:00 which is an obvious error that does not need
> > local knowledge.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Ilya

Great tool but it would be nice to be able to be able togo back to items
you skipped

Regards

Brian

On 29 November 2017 at 14:49, Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> I had a few free hours today, so I added the table view:
>
> http://audit.osmz.ru/table/shell
>
> Though I'm not sure a fuel station cannot close at 16:00 — for example, a
> small one that serves agricultural needs.
>
> Ilya
>
> > 26 нояб. 2017 г., в 17:52, Philip Barnes 
> написал(а):
> >
> > On Sun, 2017-11-26 at 16:46 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> >> Hi Rob, thanks for looking at the website.
> >>
> >> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. That is a working tool for validating
> >> an import. Please open http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell , click
> >> "Validate the import" and check at least a hundred points. You can
> >> move a point when it's off, and you can choose which tags go on an
> >> object.
> >>
> >> If you remember writing me about some of the fuel stations, please
> >> find these on the "browse points" screen, click "edit this" and put
> >> changes there.
> >>
> >> I'll plan to do the import when at least a half of the points have
> >> been looked at — depending on a speed. I will check a few hundred
> >> myself, but me being not in UK, I doubt it would help increase the
> >> quality.
> >>
> > Would it be possible to display this import in a table form, a line for
> > each object and a column for each tag?
> >
> > This would make obvious errors easier to spot, one example I found was
> > a closing time of 16:00 which is an obvious error that does not need
> > local knowledge.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi Phil,

I had a few free hours today, so I added the table view:

http://audit.osmz.ru/table/shell

Though I'm not sure a fuel station cannot close at 16:00 — for example, a small 
one that serves agricultural needs.

Ilya

> 26 нояб. 2017 г., в 17:52, Philip Barnes  написал(а):
> 
> On Sun, 2017-11-26 at 16:46 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> Hi Rob, thanks for looking at the website.
>> 
>> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. That is a working tool for validating
>> an import. Please open http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell , click
>> "Validate the import" and check at least a hundred points. You can
>> move a point when it's off, and you can choose which tags go on an
>> object.
>> 
>> If you remember writing me about some of the fuel stations, please
>> find these on the "browse points" screen, click "edit this" and put
>> changes there.
>> 
>> I'll plan to do the import when at least a half of the points have
>> been looked at — depending on a speed. I will check a few hundred
>> myself, but me being not in UK, I doubt it would help increase the
>> quality.
>> 
> Would it be possible to display this import in a table form, a line for
> each object and a column for each tag?
> 
> This would make obvious errors easier to spot, one example I found was
> a closing time of 16:00 which is an obvious error that does not need
> local knowledge.
> 
> Thanks 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

No it was clear and you answered my question. Thanks :-)

Rob

On 26 Nov 2017 1:47 p.m., "Ilya Zverev"  wrote:

> Hi Rob, thanks for looking at the website.
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. That is a working tool for validating an
> import. Please open http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell , click "Validate
> the import" and check at least a hundred points. You can move a point when
> it's off, and you can choose which tags go on an object.
>
> If you remember writing me about some of the fuel stations, please find
> these on the "browse points" screen, click "edit this" and put changes
> there.
>
> I'll plan to do the import when at least a half of the points have been
> looked at — depending on a speed. I will check a few hundred myself, but me
> being not in UK, I doubt it would help increase the quality.
>
> Ilya
>
> > 26 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:45, Rob Nickerson 
> написал(а):
> >
> > Hi Ilya,
> >
> > I had a quick test on mobile (not ideal) and like what I see.
> >
> > When does import occur? Automatically when you get two matches or
> manually every X weeks?
> >
> > Have you received any further feedback?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> > P.s. I don't have a problem with the navads ref being added.
> > ___
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> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi Rob, thanks for looking at the website.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. That is a working tool for validating an import. 
Please open http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell , click "Validate the import" 
and check at least a hundred points. You can move a point when it's off, and 
you can choose which tags go on an object.

If you remember writing me about some of the fuel stations, please find these 
on the "browse points" screen, click "edit this" and put changes there.

I'll plan to do the import when at least a half of the points have been looked 
at — depending on a speed. I will check a few hundred myself, but me being not 
in UK, I doubt it would help increase the quality.

Ilya

> 26 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:45, Rob Nickerson  
> написал(а):
> 
> Hi Ilya,
> 
> I had a quick test on mobile (not ideal) and like what I see.
> 
> When does import occur? Automatically when you get two matches or manually 
> every X weeks?
> 
> Have you received any further feedback?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob
> 
> P.s. I don't have a problem with the navads ref being added. 
> ___
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[Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi Ilya,

I had a quick test on mobile (not ideal) and like what I see.

When does import occur? Automatically when you get two matches or manually
every X weeks?

Have you received any further feedback?

Thanks,
Rob

P.s. I don't have a problem with the navads ref being added.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi,

I recall we had some issues with the Shell import. I have nearly finished my 
auditing tool, which helps record every issue with an import and apply it to 
the actual importing process. After testing it on a few local imports, I invite 
you to check the tool out and validate some fuel stations:

http://audit.osmz.ru/project/shell

The tutorial is not yet ready, but the interface should be quite simple. You 
can move the marker on nearly half of the stations to a better position, if you 
want. For tags, both old and new values are displayed, and you can click on 
each to select it for importing. If there is something to be corrected after, 
type a message into the "fixme" field to find it later.

After validating, press the big green "Good" (or "Record changes") button to 
send the result to the server. Two "Bad" buttons are for marking duplicates or 
absent stations. Please note that the imagery is not quite recent: I've seen a 
couple stations that were built after the imagery was taken. If you're 
undecided on a point, click "Skip".

Each point should be validated by at least two users, and each change requires 
a confirmation by another user. If you think you've made a mistake, you can 
return to the point from the "Browse points" page — click "edit this" after 
selecting a point there.

If you have a region you're most familiar with, draw a bounding box for it in 
your profile (you can draw several):

http://audit.osmz.ru/profile

If you encounter an issue or have suggestions on improving the process, please 
tell me.

Thanks,
Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 16 November 2017 at 20:19, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> Robert, I don't have official branch numbers from Shell. Identifiers that
> are being added in "ref:navads_shell" will be used for updating the data, to
> skip the matching step.

As I said, I don't think it's appropriate to include such third-party
refs in OSM. I do agree that it's convenient to have a ref for
matching -- but I don't think that's enough of a reason to include
these third-party refs. Ilya, is there any way that you could ask for
the official Shell refs to be added to the dataset you have?

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

I see that not all questions were resolved in May.

Regarding the license: NavAds are authorized to upload all Shell fuel stations 
to any maps. They are paid to do that. You can find Shell, among others, in 
their partners directory: https://navads.eu/industries/

NavAds have also signed the contract with us, that includes these words (MY.COM 
is our parent company):

--
Supplier grants MY.COM B.V. a worldwide, transferable, irrevocable and 
perpetual right to use, copy, modify, process, compile, archive, incorporate, 
display, distribute and/or use, in any way MY.COM B.V. sees fit at its sole 
discretion, any or all portions of the Supplier Content, distributed to MY.COM 
B.V. through any means, in combination with any products or services developed 
by or for MY.COM B.V..

If any Supplier Content will be provided as dynamic or real-time data through 
an application programming interface (“API”). Supplier grants MY.COM B.V. a 
transferable license to integrate the API within MY.COM B.V.’s internal systems 
in order to enable access to, and use of, the API for the delivery of Supplier 
Content.

...

* By submitting Listings to MY.COM B.V., SUPPLIER grants MY.COM B.V. the right 
to publish, amend, make available to the public the Listings subject to the 
terms and conditions of this Agreement.

* MY.COM provides Navads access to an OSM importing account during the length 
of contract term to upload data to the OSM platform.
--

Regarding the source for coordinates: I do not have that in writing, but during 
one of the calls they explained that they get a list of addresses, then geocode 
them and cross-check using multiple sources, including Google, Bing and OSM, 
and then manually correct each location using various satellite imagery. From 
location accuracy it's pretty obvious that there was more than just geocoding.

Ilya


> 17 нояб. 2017 г., в 11:14, Adam Snape  написал(а):
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 16 November 2017 at 20:19, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> As for the questions about license and location quality, I answered these in 
> May:
> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-May/020216.html
> 
>  
> Not completely. I'm not convinced that the word of a third party (nothing 
> personal) that another company has been paid by Shell to input their business 
> locations into various online maps necessarily equates to Shell consenting to 
> their data being released under the ODBL. Nor am I satisfied with your 
> (again, nothing personal but as a third-party) assurance that the co-ordinate 
> information "all placed properly on top of the fuel stations" with an "error 
> of less than 10 metres" is "definitely not geo-coded". Somebody able to offer 
> that certain assurance about how data was definitely not acquired should be 
> equally able to explain how it definitely was acquired.
> 
> I apologise if this seems like I am being obtuse but OSM has a long-standing 
> policy of using sources which we are certain are okay for us to use. These 
> are the standards we hold public sector open data releases to.. If this does 
> (as Brian hopes) set a precedent private data releases, it should confrom to 
> the community's existing import standards, not set a precedent of vagueness 
> regarding licencing. I do hope you can clear this up and we can map the 
> locations because there is lots of useful information there. 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Adam


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andrew Black]

On 17 Nov 2017 04:14, "Andrew Black"  wrote:

"  I believe we need to be very clear about the licencing. All we have is
Ilya's word (and I don't dispute it but it is hardly verifiable) that Shell
has instructed a third party to map its petrol stations on various
platforms using a dataset it supplied'

Agree



I think we need assurance from Shell's legal department (or ay least
management we believe to be reasonably aware of licencing issues.)

An analogy  I was  once in a confused situation when I was volunteering
for org A.  An employee org B (sponsoring the project) said org C had said
it was ok to do print extracts their maps.  I suspect they had permission
to publish certain extract on website.  Org A printed extracts with no
attribution.As a volunteer my concerns were ignored.

Chinese whispers (is there a better phrase) are common in large
organisations.


I realise my example is a bit abstract but I don't want to break confidence.

On 16 Nov 2017 17:35, "Brian Prangle"  wrote:

> This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter
>
> On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine  wrote:
>
>> On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> >> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>> >>
>> >> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
>> colour
>> >> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> >> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or
>> journeys
>> >> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with
>> Shell
>> >> data where it is correct to green
>> >> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
>> > That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
>> > the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
>> > in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
>> > rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.
>>
>> Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
>> even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
>> owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...
>>
>> --
>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>> -
>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
>> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi everyone,

Thank you Brian for pushing this forward. The ongoing discussion (and 
reminders from a NavAds employee) have made me start developing the 
auditing tool for imported data. Hopefully next week I'll give you all a 
link where you can check every imported object one by one, and alter the 
data.


Harry's visualisation was merged into my map. Alas, colours there do not 
work as you think they do: blue means modified existing objects, green — 
new nodes to be added to OSM. Tracking the progress with the 
visualization would be complicated, since we don't have any means to 
store your verdicts on each point.


As for the questions about license and location quality, I answered 
these in May:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-May/020216.html

Robert, I don't have official branch numbers from Shell. Identifiers 
that are being added in "ref:navads_shell" will be used for updating the 
data, to skip the matching step.


Thanks,
Ilya

16.11.2017 20:34, Brian Prangle пишет:

This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter

On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine > wrote:


On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>>
>> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a 
colour
>> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
>> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
>> data where it is correct to green
>> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.

Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact

L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Brian Prangle]

This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter

On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
> >> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
> >>
> >> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
> colour
> >> change for  missing filling stations to red
> >> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> >> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> >> data where it is correct to green
> >> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> > That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> > the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> > in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> > rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.
>
> Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
> even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
> owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Lester Caine]

On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>>
>> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a colour
>> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
>> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
>> data where it is correct to green
>> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.

Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 15 November 2017 at 18:38, Brian Prangle  wrote:
> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>
> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a colour
> change for  missing filling stations to red
> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> data where it is correct to green
> Watch the map turn green as we make progress

That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell. So I
don't think we should include these numbers in OSM. On the other hand,
having some form of id/key would certainly be useful in terms of
future updates to the data. I don't know exactly what Shell do, but
I've seen what I assume are branch reference numbers on display at a
couple of Shell petrol stations (I think in conjunction with the "fill
& go code" mobile payment system identifying each pump as a branch
number followed by a pump number). See e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/248030653 Assuming these branch
numbers do exist and are expected to be stable, I think we should be
using them instead.

And +1 to Adam Snape's comments about licensing.

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Adam Snape]

Hi,

Most of that 'strawman' suggestion seems sensible and entirely the right
kind of way for the community to help companies add useful data to the map.
I do however, disagree with the penultimate point. I do not belive that we
should be automatically importing this kind of data. An omission is much
more easily noticed and solved than incorrect imported data.

To add another angle to this discussion. If we are to use these kinds of
datasets in the future  I believe we need to be very clear about the
licencing. All we have is Ilya's word (and I don't dispute it but it is
hardly verifiable) that Shell has instructed a third party to map its
petrol stations on various platforms using a dataset it supplied. Going
forward I believe that we ought to have explicit written permission or
confirmation of an open licence from the copyright holder before
considering importing datasets. Openstreetmap is different to many online
mapping platforms companies might add information to because it involves
the perpetual free public release of all information entered. Has Shell
explicitly consented to this information being released under the ODBL or
compatible licence? I also wonder how Shell obtained its co-ordinate
information and whether we can be reasonably confident that no other
organisation could claim copyright in this information as a derived work.

Adam



On 15 November 2017 at 18:38, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Like most discussions we get a useful survey of opinion and some
> elucidation of the nature of the problem, with lots of suggestions, but no
> actual decision on how we are going to proceed, except maintain the status
> quo.  As one of the core objectives of the UK OSM Chapter is to "promote
> and facilitate the release by organisations in the United Kingdom of  data
> that is suitable for use in OpenStreetMap" I'd like to suggest we focus on
> how we can achieve that objective and use this dataset as  a template for a
> methodology we can adopt for future datasets. I might be wrong but I think
> this is the first UK- wide release of data from a commercial body rather
> than a public one and we need to encourage others.
>
> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>
> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
> colour change for  missing filling stations to red
> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> data where it is correct to green
> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> We can get going on this straight away whilst we decide on POI checker or
> Map Roulette as a better tool
> Review progress- see if we need a Qarterly Project
> After   say 3 months, we should see how much the active mapping community
> can achieve, and maybe  import the remainder with a "Review=yes/no" tag
> Ask Shell to release their data on the rollout of ev charging points once
> we've made some progress (ev charging points is another story but as we
> move away from fossil fuels OSM can demonstrate its utility in keeping up
> to date for vehile navigation)
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> .
>
> On 11 November 2017 at 17:36, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
>> On 06/11/17 16:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> > Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
>> > data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
>> > serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
>> > the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
>> > that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.
>> >
>> > Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
>> > imports like this seem sadly to cause?
>>
>> I have come across this tool which is designed for "merging" in 3rd
>> party data into OSM in a semi-manual manner. But it's a bit rough around
>> the edges, with no way to add new datasets (I think)
>>
>>  http://poichecker.com/en
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Brian Prangle]

Like most discussions we get a useful survey of opinion and some
elucidation of the nature of the problem, with lots of suggestions, but no
actual decision on how we are going to proceed, except maintain the status
quo.  As one of the core objectives of the UK OSM Chapter is to "promote
and facilitate the release by organisations in the United Kingdom of  data
that is suitable for use in OpenStreetMap" I'd like to suggest we focus on
how we can achieve that objective and use this dataset as  a template for a
methodology we can adopt for future datasets. I might be wrong but I think
this is the first UK- wide release of data from a commercial body rather
than a public one and we need to encourage others.

Here's a strawman to start the discussion:

Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
colour change for  missing filling stations to red
Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
data where it is correct to green
Watch the map turn green as we make progress
We can get going on this straight away whilst we decide on POI checker or
Map Roulette as a better tool
Review progress- see if we need a Qarterly Project
After   say 3 months, we should see how much the active mapping community
can achieve, and maybe  import the remainder with a "Review=yes/no" tag
Ask Shell to release their data on the rollout of ev charging points once
we've made some progress (ev charging points is another story but as we
move away from fossil fuels OSM can demonstrate its utility in keeping up
to date for vehile navigation)

Regards

Brian

.

On 11 November 2017 at 17:36, Rory McCann  wrote:

> On 06/11/17 16:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> > Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
> > data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
> > serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
> > the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
> > that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.
> >
> > Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
> > imports like this seem sadly to cause?
>
> I have come across this tool which is designed for "merging" in 3rd
> party data into OSM in a semi-manual manner. But it's a bit rough around
> the edges, with no way to add new datasets (I think)
>
>  http://poichecker.com/en
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rory McCann]

On 06/11/17 16:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
> data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
> serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
> the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
> that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.
> 
> Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
> imports like this seem sadly to cause?

I have come across this tool which is designed for "merging" in 3rd
party data into OSM in a semi-manual manner. But it's a bit rough around
the edges, with no way to add new datasets (I think)

 http://poichecker.com/en



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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction 
> that imports like this seem sadly to cause?

It was implemented as part of Potlatch 2, so sadly probably not appropriate
for general consumption in a post-Flash age:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Potlatch_2/merging_functionality

Richard



--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Christian Ledermann]

On 6 November 2017 at 15:45, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> On 3 November 2017 at 09:55, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
>
>> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell fuel 
>> stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with Shell for 
>> putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with the import 
>> and sent an updated list of the stations. I have prepared an import and 
>> would like to do it in a few days.
>>
>> Please help me review the data.
>
> Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
> data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
> serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
> the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
> that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.
>
> Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
> imports like this seem sadly to cause?

there is also https://github.com/cleder/os-opendata-edubase for crowd
import which powers https://schools.mapthe.uk/

>
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-- 
Best Regards,

Christian Ledermann

Newark-on-Trent - UK
Mobile : +44 7474997517

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/christianledermann
https://github.com/cleder/


<*)))>{

If you save the living environment, the biodiversity that we have left,
you will also automatically save the physical environment, too. But If
you only save the physical environment, you will ultimately lose both.

1) Don’t drive species to extinction

2) Don’t destroy a habitat that species rely on.

3) Don’t change the climate in ways that will result in the above.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Mabbett]

On 3 November 2017 at 09:55, Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell fuel 
> stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with Shell for 
> putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with the import 
> and sent an updated list of the stations. I have prepared an import and would 
> like to do it in a few days.
>
> Please help me review the data.

Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.

Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
imports like this seem sadly to cause?

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[Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

Thanks Andy. Any talks you recommend us watching?

I can recommend the following:

https://2017.stateofthemap.us/program/building-community-in-south-florida.html

90% imported automatically, the remaining 10% left to the local community.
Seems like engaging with them is hard at this stage even when you offer
extra credits for student assignments!!

Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Allan]

On 3 November 2017 at 17:51, Ilya Zverev  wrote:
> First, thanks everyone for checking the import. I've made some improvements 
> regarding addresses, and I removed the "operator" tag. You can see the 
> improvements on the same map. I'd like to join Richard in a search for a 
> review tool, which would allow people from UK to participate.

Maproulette springs to mind.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapRoulette for those who haven't
seen it before.

On a more general point, I recently attended SOTM-US and it was
noticeable the shift in approach to third-party data that has been
happening over there in the last few years. Very few people or
companies were discussing imports in the manner of "lets get the data
into the right format and then just upload it with a script" and
instead the theme is very much how to get data into the hands of
mappers and how to develop the right tools so that the local
communities can incorporate the data themselves. Facebook were very
clear on this. Even ESRI have been working on developing iD so that
mappers can use third-party data during their normal workflow, rather
than going down the shapefile-and-a-script route. So it's a little
disappointing to return home and find that someone is trying to upload
some dataset directly to the servers, instead of trying put the data
in the hands of mappers to deal with it ourselves.

This Shell data appears to be useful, but I don't like the idea of
giving everyone only a few days to review and comment before shoving
it into the database. Please explore options, like MapRoulette or
others, so that the mappers are in control of the process and not the
techies. I'm sure if mappers are working through the list as part of a
MapRoulette challenge, checking for weirdness and ticking off the ones
that are done, we'll all enjoy it more and we'll end up with better
results. Even just improving these tags as part of a challenge will
lead mappers to reposition the fuel station nodes more accurately, or
even add some further details from imagery, or whatnot.

In short: Third-party data good, bulk imports bad. Power to the mappers!

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Robert Norris]

Hi Ilya,

I think some more attention needs putting on the creation of new/missing fuel 
stations.

Some issues I've come across:

Around:
http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/#18/50.85426/-1.73008

Looks like it will attempt to create a node over the top of an existing 
location.
Seems like the two nearby stations either side of the A31 are getting confused.

'New' Station NVDS353-10018810 seems a long way off the real position (about 
1.5 miles wrong).
http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/#15/52.0452/-0.0605
Existing location:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.03292/-0.09348


However a number other new locations randomly checked seem correct (i.e. looks 
like a fuel station from aerial imagery)

And at least the one here is definitely correct:
http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/#16/51.0455/-2.4317
Which I could create manually since I 'know it'


--
Be Seeing You - Rob.
If at first you don't succeed,
then skydiving isn't for you.


From: Ilya Zverev <i...@zverev.info>
Sent: 03 November 2017 09:55:59
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

Hi,

You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell fuel 
stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with Shell for 
putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with the import and 
sent an updated list of the stations. I have prepared an import and would like 
to do it in a few days.

Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:

http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/

And here is a list of changed tag values for existing fuel stations, for your 
convenience:

https://pastebin.com/KvxiZ9mc

This import will be made from Zverik_imports account and will be described at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navads_Imports page.

Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Harry Wood]

I wanted to make some little improvements to your map display (more readable 
tags)
http://bl.ocks.org/harry-wood/raw/1c590b852dd2f43569c085dc554b9abd/

I'm not that familiar with 'gists'. They don't have 'pull requests' hey? Anyway 
my fork is 
here:https://gist.github.com/harry-wood/1c590b852dd2f43569c085dc554b9abd
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[Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

>On 03/11/2017 20:42, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>> ... There is no way I see us OSM craft mappers visiting all of the
>> rest within sensible time-frames. ...
>
>Ah, silly me.  If only I (and everyone else here) had read that around
>10 years ago, then we needn't have bothered mapping all that stuff in
>OSM, and just used "official" sources instead. :)
>

Hi Andy,

I assume that the smiley face means you are just trying to bring some good
humour to this. Will post my "for the avoidance of doubt" reasoning direct
to you as don't want to sidetrack this thread again.

Bringing us back to my proposal:

1. How does this sound?
2. Is there any other systematic issues such as the refs as road names
issue?


Thanks,

Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2017 20:42, Rob Nickerson wrote:
... There is no way I see us OSM craft mappers visiting all of the 
rest within sensible time-frames. ...


Ah, silly me.  If only I (and everyone else here) had read that around 
10 years ago, then we needn't have bothered mapping all that stuff in 
OSM, and just used "official" sources instead. :)


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andrew Hain]

There is another dataset you can use, the food hygiene ratings 
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Food_Hygiene_Rating_System] at 
http://ratings.food.gov.uk that has postcodes for shops selling food, which 
includes many petrol stations. It includes Northern Ireland but not the Isle of 
Man or the Channel Islands.

--
Andrew

From: Chris Hill <o...@raggedred.net>
Sent: 03 November 2017 19:10:27
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

On 03/11/2017 18:45, David Woolley wrote:
> On 03/11/17 17:51, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> postcodes, should they be removed from the import? Is there a
>> database that I can check these against?
>
> There is a database, but one of OSM UK's big bug bears is that it is
> not licensed in a way that allows it to be used for OSM.  About the
> limit of what you could do is find wrong postcodes, and then use other
> means to correct them.  I think removing a postcode on a mismatch
> might be too close to using the data.
>
> I'm, of course, referring to Royal Mail's Postal Address File (PAF).
There is a list of GB postcodes (not Northern Ireland) which, being OGL,
is compatible with the OSM licence. I maintain an overlay of postcodes
using that data, which you can see more about here:
https://raggedred.net/codepoint/

I am, of course, referring to the dataset Codepoint Open, supplied from
Royal Mail and distributed on the Ordnance Survey open data page.
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/opendatadownload/products.html

There is a version also supplied by the Office of National Statistics
which is based on Codepoint Open, but with some extra information for
each postcode. This also contains expired postcodes too.

Both of these datasets do not show each delivery point, but just a
centroid (in OSGB grid ref) for all the delivery points.

--

cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2017-11-03 at 20:42 +, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> My thanks to Andy for finding that this data is not perfect. My
> thanks also to Phil for finding that the existing OSM data for Shell
> Porthmadog is, to use Phil's words from a later email, broken.

It was more the opening hours on Branting Hill, near Leicester. Filling
stations do not close at 16:00 on weekdays.

Phil (trigpoint)

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[Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

My thanks to Andy for finding that this data is not perfect. My thanks also
to Phil for finding that the existing OSM data for Shell Porthmadog is, to
use Phil's words from a later email, broken.

Now that we have ascertained that neither data set is perfect, can we
please discuss whether there is value in adding Shell's/Navad's data.

My suggestion is that we ask Ilya to look in to the road naming issue where
we have a road ref as the name (e.g. resulting in things like "663-667 A46"
as an address), but otherwise allow the import of the proposed tag_new
values. We can then get a list of the proposed tag changes (tags_changed)
and check these manually.

This should give us new tags that have an error comparable to our own
mapping (we all make mistakes) with the potential to make improvements to
our data by investigating the proposed tag changes. It also reduces the
amount of work. By pure fluke I have actually visited all the Shell
stations that have been called out so far. There is no way I see us OSM
craft mappers visiting all of the rest within sensible time-frames.

How does this sound?

Is there any other systematic issues such as the refs as road names issue?

Thanks,
*Rob*

P.s. I checked those close to me. All look good.
P.p.s. By "sensible time-frames" I mean 12 months. The number of fuel
stations is reducing and shortly (thanks to the autonomous and electric
vehicle bill currently oing through parliament) they will have to start
adding EV charging points. That is, expect rapid changes and hence a target
of 12 months to keep our data fresh.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2017-11-03 at 11:09 -0700, Paul Norman wrote:
> On 11/3/2017 10:51 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> > Philip, the shell.co.uk website gives the same opening hours for
> > the Branting Hill station as the source dataset. Basically,
> > everything in the dataset is the same, except for locations, which
> > have been improved by the Navads team.
> 
> What percentage of the opening hours in Shell's dataset do you
> estimate 
> are wrong?

Thats the million dollar question, I have only looked at the ones
within my stamping ground. All it proves is the the source data is
broken.

I do not deny that the import matches the hours stated on shell.co.uk,
but applying a sanity check. It is on the outbound side on a commuter
route into a major city, would any business selling fuel hope to
survive if it closes at 16:00 on weekdays?

I can apply local knowledge, it does not only open Mon-Fri 08:00-16:00, 
Sat-Sun 10:00-18:00 and those hours should look wrong to any mapper
looking at them. 

And, as its not a field in the import or in OSM, I will just ignore the
spelling howler on http://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/station-
locator.html#iframe=Lz9sb2NhbGU9ZW5fR0IjL0A1Mi44NTEsLTMuMDU3MDQsMTV6LyF
ONFh5QT9faz1tMWk0dmI=
But I am going to survey it :D

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Chris Hill]

On 03/11/2017 18:45, David Woolley wrote:

On 03/11/17 17:51, Ilya Zverev wrote:
postcodes, should they be removed from the import? Is there a 
database that I can check these against?


There is a database, but one of OSM UK's big bug bears is that it is 
not licensed in a way that allows it to be used for OSM.  About the 
limit of what you could do is find wrong postcodes, and then use other 
means to correct them.  I think removing a postcode on a mismatch 
might be too close to using the data.


I'm, of course, referring to Royal Mail's Postal Address File (PAF). 
There is a list of GB postcodes (not Northern Ireland) which, being OGL, 
is compatible with the OSM licence. I maintain an overlay of postcodes 
using that data, which you can see more about here: 
https://raggedred.net/codepoint/


I am, of course, referring to the dataset Codepoint Open, supplied from 
Royal Mail and distributed on the Ordnance Survey open data page. 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/opendatadownload/products.html


There is a version also supplied by the Office of National Statistics 
which is based on Codepoint Open, but with some extra information for 
each postcode. This also contains expired postcodes too.


Both of these datasets do not show each delivery point, but just a 
centroid (in OSGB grid ref) for all the delivery points.


--

cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[David Woolley]

On 03/11/17 17:51, Ilya Zverev wrote:

postcodes, should they be removed from the import? Is there a database that I 
can check these against?


There is a database, but one of OSM UK's big bug bears is that it is not 
licensed in a way that allows it to be used for OSM.  About the limit of 
what you could do is find wrong postcodes, and then use other means to 
correct them.  I think removing a postcode on a mismatch might be too 
close to using the data.


I'm, of course, referring to Royal Mail's Postal Address File (PAF).

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Paul Norman]

On 11/3/2017 10:51 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Philip, the shell.co.uk website gives the same opening hours for the Branting 
Hill station as the source dataset. Basically, everything in the dataset is the 
same, except for locations, which have been improved by the Navads team.


What percentage of the opening hours in Shell's dataset do you estimate 
are wrong?


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

First, thanks everyone for checking the import. I've made some improvements 
regarding addresses, and I removed the "operator" tag. You can see the 
improvements on the same map. I'd like to join Richard in a search for a review 
tool, which would allow people from UK to participate.

Seeing that there are possibly ~2% of wrong postcodes, should they be removed 
from the import? Is there a database that I can check these against?

Andy, thanks for the explanations regarding the Markham Vale.

Brian, thanks for supporting this.

Frederik,
> It may be true that existing high requirements are partly responsible
> for bad imports being attempted, but I do not concur that this means we
> should lower our standards so more imports can pass. To me, this is like
> saying "let's get rid of speed limits, then nobody will be speeding any
> more". It is true but not desirable.

That is not the reason not to fix things. I live and Russia and have seen many 
issues with speed limits: 60 kph on 12-lane highways being the most common 
example. This is fixed not by ignoring the issue and appealing to extremes, but 
by changing the limit or the road. For now it seems that the better an import 
is described, the more people understand it, the harder it is to please 
everyone. Obfuscating it, e.g. presenting a raw json and a few Shell stations 
with better tagging in my case, looks to be the more productive option — and 
it's okay if in three years somebody finds a few wrong tags. (Not that I'd do 
it, of course.)

Philip, the shell.co.uk website gives the same opening hours for the Branting 
Hill station as the source dataset. Basically, everything in the dataset is the 
same, except for locations, which have been improved by the Navads team.

Ilya

> 3 нояб. 2017 г., в 18:35, Philip Barnes  написал(а):
> 
> Looking at some of the Shell stations locally
> 
> I would dispute that the operator is most locations is Shell and that
> the brand should be Shell, but they are independent businesses who have
> a franchise to sell Shell fuel, but Shell do not employ the cashier,
> the mechanics or supply what is sold in the shop.
> 
> The opening hours you propose to add to http://www.openstreetmap.org/wa
> y/200523446 is total bobbins.
> 
> Telford Services has two filling stations, separated by an access road.
> 
> Whilst not part of your import, I would be very surprised if Shell
> Porthmadog didn't sell diesel.
> 
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> 
> On Fri, 2017-11-03 at 12:55 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of
>> Shell fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a
>> contract with Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked
>> me to proceed with the import and sent an updated list of the
>> stations. I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few
>> days.
>> 
>> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
>> 
>> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/
>> 
>> And here is a list of changed tag values for existing fuel stations,
>> for your convenience:
>> 
>> https://pastebin.com/KvxiZ9mc
>> 
>> This import will be made from Zverik_imports account and will be
>> described at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navads_Imports page.
>> 
>> Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Lester Caine]

On 03/11/17 11:20, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Ashton-under-Hill (postcode WR11 7QP, near Lester ;) ) is weird too - the
> addr:street is proposed to be changed to 'A46', which isn't a street name,
> it's a ref.

Actually Spar list it as Vale Service Station , A46 Ashton Under Hill
but it is really Cheltenham Road. All needs a bit of an update as the
Transport Cafe has been closed for a while and the lorry park is closed
off. But like many 'Shell' stations, it is operated by a third party,
not by Shell.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[David Woolley]

On 03/11/17 15:35, Philip Barnes wrote:

I would dispute that the operator is most locations is Shell and that
the brand should be Shell, but they are independent businesses who have
a franchise to sell Shell fuel, but Shell do not employ the cashier,
the mechanics or supply what is sold in the shop.


I wondered about this and tried to research it.  It looks as though 
Shell don't do a standard franchise operation, where they only provide 
the branding and branded products, but do something in between, where 
they supply the actual petrol station as well, but they then 
sub-contract the shop to a small local business, but with some branding 
conditions (I've actually seen the head office provided plans of what 
must be on each shelf, although I'm not sure if it was Shell at the time).


I guess it is closer to a tied pub than a Burger King franchise.  I'm 
not sure how to correctly code it.  Arguably Shell operate the station 
as a whole, but the shop and cash desk area has a different operator.


brand=Shell seems safe, but operator is confusing.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Philip Barnes]

Looking at some of the Shell stations locally

I would dispute that the operator is most locations is Shell and that
the brand should be Shell, but they are independent businesses who have
a franchise to sell Shell fuel, but Shell do not employ the cashier,
the mechanics or supply what is sold in the shop.

The opening hours you propose to add to http://www.openstreetmap.org/wa
y/200523446 is total bobbins.

Telford Services has two filling stations, separated by an access road.

Whilst not part of your import, I would be very surprised if Shell
Porthmadog didn't sell diesel.


Phil (trigpoint)


On Fri, 2017-11-03 at 12:55 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of
> Shell fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a
> contract with Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked
> me to proceed with the import and sent an updated list of the
> stations. I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few
> days.
> 
> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
> 
> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/
> 
> And here is a list of changed tag values for existing fuel stations,
> for your convenience:
> 
> https://pastebin.com/KvxiZ9mc
> 
> This import will be made from Zverik_imports account and will be
> described at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navads_Imports page.
> 
> Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2017 14:24, Steve Doerr wrote:


The postcode (S44 5HB) is certainly wrong. Probably should be S44 5HS. 
Euro Garages (operator of the Shell garage we're talking about) is 
certainly listed at that postcode, which is Markham Lane, as you say. 
(So are 59 other locations.) Strangely, KFC and The Little Castle, on 
the same site, have a postcode of S44 5FD, which is Enterprise Way. 
Markham Vale as a whole covers about four separate development sites 
(subdivided into plots) on both sides of the M1.


(as I may have said before) I think it's explained by the KFC and Little 
Castle (pub) being built after Enterprise Way was built, whereas the 
other businesses started to be built before it was complete.


Interestingly, Google have updated their POIs since May (maybe a Google 
contributor reads this list...). 
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2433483,-1.3312846,16.5z looks now 
mostly correct if you compare it to 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/53.24411/-1.33530 .  Back in May, 
most of the POIs were clustered around what is now labelled as "Markham 
Vale Environment Centre", which interestingly if you believe 
http://www.chesterfield.co.uk/business/conferences/markham-vale-environment-centre/ 
has a different postcode altogether of S44 5HY.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 03.11.2017 11:59, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> I see many imports every day going unnoticed, and I see this kind of a harsh 
> reaction on proposed imports. It is easy to see why people are reluctant to 
> announce their imports and automated edits beforehand. 

Any import that goes unnoticed for now, and is noticed a year or two or
three later, is liable to be removed entirely without further discussion
at any time, by anyone.

An import that has been discussed beforehand and agreed to be a good
thing doesn't run this risk.

I think this is incentive enough for people to use the proper channels,
and I'm more than happy to revert a few 5-year-old imports just to prove
the point.

> Until we develop a polite, predictable and mature way of clearing imports, we 
> will continue seeing undiscussed imports and being angry at people who just 
> did not want to be yelled at.

I think it is a frequent error to mistake criticism of data or process
for insults or "being yelled at", and it is good on the whole to see
that the OSM community is protective of its data.

The imports process is not there to rubber-stamp anything that is
brought up, but to ensure it is of high enough quality. Simply saying
yes to anything is not "mature".

It may be true that existing high requirements are partly responsible
for bad imports being attempted, but I do not concur that this means we
should lower our standards so more imports can pass. To me, this is like
saying "let's get rid of speed limits, then nobody will be speeding any
more". It is true but not desirable.

Would-be importers can hope for help from the OSM community but they are
not entitled to it; the likelihood of such help forthcoming is probably
dependent on how interesting the data set is for the community.

On 03.11.2017 13:29, Brian Prangle wrote:
> I welcome this initiative from Ilya. We are never going to get a
totally correct data source, and even data originating from human
mappers can leave a lot to be desired.

We generally afford more goodwill to individual mappers than to imports
because even if the first steps of an individual mapper can be
imperfect, they can learn and improve and become a valuable resource
over time. An import, on the other hand, is usually done as a one-off
and we can either take it or leave it; there's rarely a situation where
we would say "ah, the importer will probably spend more time to fix that
in the future".

Specifically, some people have pointed out areas in which this
particular import would deteriorate existing data (replace landline with
mobile phone etc.); this is something not even a newbie mapper would get
away with. ("Saw this on the corporate web site and added it"...)

> When we imported Naptan data we added a review tag set to "no", so
that as the community verified the data it could be set to "yes" or just
deleted.

This can be a working strategy but it should always go hand-in-hand with
a plan on how to get the review done in a reasonable time. The 12
million "tiger:reviewed-no" in the US seem to have no intent of dying
out ;-)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Steve Doerr]

On 03/11/2017 10:59, Ilya Zverev wrote:

3 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:21, Andy Townsend  написал(а):



Last time you proposed this it took only a few seconds to identify problems 
with the data.  It's the same this time - at least some of the changes that 
your map suggests you're proposing to import 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2917373098 are incorrect (address info in 
this example).

How is the address info there incorrect? Did you see the correct address of the 
building? Googling shows that amenities there are indeed addressed by Markham 
Lane, just like the Markham Vale, the business centre that contains these.




The postcode (S44 5HB) is certainly wrong. Probably should be S44 5HS. 
Euro Garages (operator of the Shell garage we're talking about) is 
certainly listed at that postcode, which is Markham Lane, as you say. 
(So are 59 other locations.) Strangely, KFC and The Little Castle, on 
the same site, have a postcode of S44 5FD, which is Enterprise Way. 
Markham Vale as a whole covers about four separate development sites 
(subdivided into plots) on both sides of the M1.


In any case, Markham Ln should be expanded to Markham Lane.

addr:housenumber = 29A also looks suspicious, as this development is at 
Junction 29A of the M1!


Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[ael]

On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 01:59:17PM +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> 3 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:21, Andy Townsend  написал(а):
> > 
> > On 03/11/2017 09:55, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell 
> >> fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with 
> >> Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with 
> >> the import and sent an updated list of the stations.

I have also done a very quick check on a couple of stations. 

The import have "ref_coords" that differ from the existing OSM nodes
which are in good locations. If this implies that the exiting nodes be
moved, then that seems wrong.

The current nodes have proper source tags. The import appears to leave
them unmodified rendering them incorrect. They should append
";navads_shell" or some such if the import goes ahead.

ael




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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2017 10:59, Ilya Zverev wrote:


How is the address info there incorrect? Did you see the correct address of the 
building? Googling shows that amenities there are indeed addressed by Markham 
Lane, just like the Markham Vale, the business centre that contains these.


I explained the likely chain of events the last time this was discussed:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-May/004985.html

Basically, when the place was built the road it is now on 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/393054254 (which based on the signage 
to the south and 
http://ris.dev.openstreetmap.org/oslmusicalchairs/map?osl_id=1001791 is 
called Enterprise Way) did not exist, and the site office was where 
Google thinks everything still is, in an office off Markham Lane.





I have received the list from the Shell UK. Are you suggesting I should buy a 
ticket and verify each of these on the ground? Are there any better sources for 
Shell fuel stations, or are you implying the UK is a special restricted 
no-imports-whatsoever territory?


No, I'm suggest that you (or whoever's doing this import) sanity-check 
the data that you get from third parties against what's already in OSM.  
David Woolley's already said "company head offices are notorious, in my 
view, for failing to map their branches at the correct location"; here 
it looked like someone at Shell had to fill in address details on a 
form, but couldn't use e.g. the correct road because it did not exist 
yet, so made up some values to fill in the fields to avoid "computer 
says no" and that's never been updated at Shell's end.





I assumed a week of heated discussions in imports@ and talk-gb@ mailing lists 
in May would be enough, and we won't start with the same arguments.


What would be good would be if you fixed the problems raised there. 
Street names were raised as an issue here:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-May/004974.html




... I personally believe our map would be better by having more data 
from the original sources: 


Agreed, if the data is correct (and it's going to be maintained, as I 
presume it is here).  The problem here seems to be that it isn't correct 
in the first place.





I see many imports every day going unnoticed, and I see this kind of a harsh 
reaction on proposed imports. It is easy to see why people are reluctant to 
announce their imports and automated edits beforehand. Until we develop a 
polite, predictable and mature way of clearing imports, we will continue seeing 
undiscussed imports and being angry at people who just did not want to be 
yelled at.
You're not being yelled at.  You're being told that some data that you 
want to import is incorrect, as you were back in May.


Where data may be iffy / need conflation there are are lots of 
alternatives to "let's dump the data in OSM and let the community figure 
it out after the event" - for example look at the way schools (including 
in relatively unmapped areas) were mapped in the UK as part of a 
project.  Shell stations by there very nature tend to be on major roads; 
I'd be surprised if many of the new ones (and things like brand changes) 
weren't visible from e.g. Mapillary to at least verify the location.  
Similarly, any human that looks at the address example I gave ("house 
number 29a", which is obviously the motorway junction ref) is unlikely 
to be valid.  Similarly for the address issues that Richard has raised.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Philip Withnall]

On Fri, 2017-11-03 at 12:55 +0300, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of
> Shell fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a
> contract with Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked
> me to proceed with the import and sent an updated list of the
> stations. I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few
> days.
> 
> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
> 
> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/

I just checked the 4 nearest me (3 by Kendal, 1 at Newby Bridge):

http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/#12/54.3
005/-2.8400

The changes to Lound Road are all entirely correct. The changes to
Prizet services (on the A591) are mostly correct, although adding
addr:street=A591 is incorrect, since that’s a ref, not a street name.

The Newby Bridge services are a bit more of a mess. The import is
proposing to add a new node on top of a house. The garage already
exists in OSM, further to the south and incorrectly labelled as a
Texaco garage. Having checked, it’s now a Shell. The proposed tags for
the new node include the inappropriate addr:street=A591 — inappropriate
both because it’s a ref, and because the road it’s on is actually the
A590.

---

Overall, I think this is valuable data to add to OSM, and it’s great
that Shell are freely licensing it and working to get it included.
However, as others have said, once data is in the map it’s assumed to
be correct — spotting and fixing incorrect data is much harder than
adding missing data. So this import should be done carefully.

I’m not an expert, but I would suggest either:
 • Importing the data as nodes which are not tagged as amenity=fuel,
and letting the community merge them over time. This is how the NAPTAN
import was done.
 • Providing a comparison tool (like bl.ocks.org) and letting the
community manually reconcile the map with your data. If you provide
progress statistics (like http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postboxes/progr
ess/) that might encourage people.

---

Finally, the new nodes seem to have a navads_shell= ID on them. Perhaps
it would make more sense to use a Shell-specific ID, just in case Shell
decide to switch ad partners away from Navads at some point, which
would leave a load of orphaned IDs in OSM?

Philip

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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[David Woolley]

On 03/11/17 10:59, Ilya Zverev wrote:

I have received the list from the Shell UK. Are you suggesting I should buy a 
ticket and verify each of these on the ground? Are there any better sources for 
Shell fuel stations, or are you implying the UK is a special restricted 
no-imports-whatsoever territory?


Whilst I do sometimes think there is too much paranoia about bulk 
imports in parts of the UK community, company head offices are 
notorious, in my view, for failing to map their branches at the correct 
location, often using postcodes.  As such, I'd expect a very diligent 
attempt to find existing mappings, and that existing addresses which 
appear to have been surveyed on the ground should not be changed, but 
rather either the mapper notified through a changeset comment, or a map 
note added, to point out the discrepancy.


They will get locations wrong, even when using Google Maps on their own 
web site store finder pages.


Generally there is a strong presumption that something already on the 
map is correct, especially if surveyed on the ground.


Having said that, I'm not aware of any errors on the ones I personally 
know, one of which is new to the map.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Richard Fairhurst]

Ilya Zverev wrote:
> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/

Eek, this still looks a bit sketchy.

Choosing one of the two nearest affected petrol stations to me, the one on
Woodstock Road, Yarnton looks like it would be tagged "brand=Texaco;
operator=Shell" post-import, which is nonsensical.

I think it is actually a Shell now rather than a Texaco (not 100% sure,
neither my bike nor train need to use Shell stations) but in any case the
tag remapping isn't working.

Looking at a few other random ones, there are all sorts of odd little data
issues like this. For example, the phone tag on Shardlow South services is
proposed to be changed from 01332 794127 to 07880 078248. This looks really
unlikely - it's replacing a local geographic number with a mobile number
(and there are big notices at every petrol station telling you not to use
mobiles!). I just checked the number by calling it and the 01332 one is
correct.

Ashton-under-Hill (postcode WR11 7QP, near Lester ;) ) is weird too - the
addr:street is proposed to be changed to 'A46', which isn't a street name,
it's a ref. Oddly, further up the A46, we have Six Hills Services
Northbound, where addr:street is currently A46 in OSM, and the import has
'ref_unused_tags.addr:street' as 'Fosse Way', which would actually be
better. But the import proposes adding a house number, so it'd end up as
663-667 A46, which is just odd. (That said, I'm not sure anyone would ever
use a house number for an isolated rural petrol station like this anyway.)

There's clearly some good data in here and it would be a shame not to have
it. But all of these are data issues that would be spotted instantly by
anyone familiar with the UK yet are difficult to code around. So I'd suggest
this would be better done with manual review than by an automated import -
maybe someone can recommend a tool which works well for this?

Richard



--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

Thanks Ed, I have removed overriding streets and postal codes, so at least 
existing correct addresses won't be changed. I've updated the map.

If a majority of addresses in the import are wrong, then I would consider 
removing these tags even from the hundred of new objects.

Ilya

> 3 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:51, Ed Loach <edlo...@gmail.com> написал(а):
> 
> I've checked the only one near me, in Clacton, and the address details in 
> OpenStreetMap are correct and the proposed address changes are wrong.
> 
> Ed
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ilya Zverev [mailto:i...@zverev.info]
>> Sent: 03 November 2017 09:56
>> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing
>> of Shell fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a
>> contract with Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked
>> me to proceed with the import and sent an updated list of the
>> stations. I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few
>> days.
>> 
>> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
>> 
>> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/
>> 
>> And here is a list of changed tag values for existing fuel stations, for
>> your convenience:
>> 
>> https://pastebin.com/KvxiZ9mc
>> 
>> This import will be made from Zverik_imports account and will be
>> described at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navads_Imports
>> page.
>> 
>> Ilya
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> 


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ilya Zverev]

3 нояб. 2017 г., в 13:21, Andy Townsend  написал(а):
> 
> On 03/11/2017 09:55, Ilya Zverev wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell fuel 
>> stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with Shell for 
>> putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with the import 
>> and sent an updated list of the stations.
> 
> Last time you proposed this it took only a few seconds to identify problems 
> with the data.  It's the same this time - at least some of the changes that 
> your map suggests you're proposing to import 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2917373098 are incorrect (address info in 
> this example).

How is the address info there incorrect? Did you see the correct address of the 
building? Googling shows that amenities there are indeed addressed by Markham 
Lane, just like the Markham Vale, the business centre that contains these. 

> 
> More serious than address vagueries, what evidence do we have that the new 
> stations that you're adding actually exist in the locations you suggest?  
> Last time there were serious problems where e.g. a Shell station in a 
> new-build area was allegedly located in the development office of a building 
> site (presumably the only valid address at the time of construction), not 
> conflated with it's actual mapped-in-osm location.

I have received the list from the Shell UK. Are you suggesting I should buy a 
ticket and verify each of these on the ground? Are there any better sources for 
Shell fuel stations, or are you implying the UK is a special restricted 
no-imports-whatsoever territory?

> 
>> I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few days.
> 
> "a few days" is nowhere near enough time for people to even read this message.

I assumed a week of heated discussions in imports@ and talk-gb@ mailing lists 
in May would be enough, and we won't start with the same arguments.

> 
>> 
>> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
>> 
>> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/
> 
> Perhaps you could provide details of what review _you_ have done? Presumably 
> you're getting paid to do this, either directly or indirectly via MAPS.ME's 
> desire to be able to sell advertising based on location.  Why should we do 
> your data validation for you?

Oh for... Of course I'm being paid gigantic piles of money to break your map!

I have explained times and times again: while I do this by a request from 
Navads via Maps.me, and I get my paycheck from Maps.me monthly, that does not 
mean any mean intent for my every edit. If you believe otherwise, please set up 
the autoreverter script (which I open sources for your convenience) on my OSM 
accounts and show me the door.

We don't receive any money from Shell or Navads. We don't have any advertising 
contracts with them. We are merely helping Navads get their data on the map — 
as opposed to their own failed attempts, linked in the past discussions of the 
same subject. I personally believe our map would be better by having more data 
from the original sources: not just amenities mappers were lucky to see on 
their way, but with a comprehensive dataset from the owning company itself.

Do you believe the alternative, that no data belongs to OSM except personally 
surveyed data?

I have made a numerous talks at conferences this year highlighting this and 
other similar issues in OSM, and it saddens me that I have changed nothing.

I see many imports every day going unnoticed, and I see this kind of a harsh 
reaction on proposed imports. It is easy to see why people are reluctant to 
announce their imports and automated edits beforehand. Until we develop a 
polite, predictable and mature way of clearing imports, we will continue seeing 
undiscussed imports and being angry at people who just did not want to be 
yelled at.

Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Ed Loach]

I've checked the only one near me, in Clacton, and the address details in 
OpenStreetMap are correct and the proposed address changes are wrong.

Ed

> -Original Message-
> From: Ilya Zverev [mailto:i...@zverev.info]
> Sent: 03 November 2017 09:56
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing
> of Shell fuel stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a
> contract with Shell for putting their stations on the map. They asked
> me to proceed with the import and sent an updated list of the
> stations. I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few
> days.
> 
> Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:
> 
> http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/
> 
> And here is a list of changed tag values for existing fuel stations, for
> your convenience:
> 
> https://pastebin.com/KvxiZ9mc
> 
> This import will be made from Zverik_imports account and will be
> described at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Navads_Imports
> page.
> 
> Ilya
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2017 09:55, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Hi,

You might remember a few months ago I discussed here importing of Shell fuel 
stations. The data provider is Navads, which has a contract with Shell for 
putting their stations on the map. They asked me to proceed with the import and 
sent an updated list of the stations.


Last time you proposed this it took only a few seconds to identify 
problems with the data.  It's the same this time - at least some of the 
changes that your map suggests you're proposing to import 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2917373098 are incorrect (address info 
in this example).


More serious than address vagueries, what evidence do we have that the 
new stations that you're adding actually exist in the locations you 
suggest?  Last time there were serious problems where e.g. a Shell 
station in a new-build area was allegedly located in the development 
office of a building site (presumably the only valid address at the time 
of construction), not conflated with it's actual mapped-in-osm location.



I have prepared an import and would like to do it in a few days.


"a few days" is nowhere near enough time for people to even read this 
message.




Please help me review the data. Here is the updated map:

http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/


Perhaps you could provide details of what review _you_ have done? 
Presumably you're getting paid to do this, either directly or indirectly 
via MAPS.ME's desire to be able to sell advertising based on location.  
Why should we do your data validation for you?


Best Regards,

Andy


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