Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Splitting of CIvil Parishes?

[Stephen Roulston]

You are quite correct KDDA. “Definitive” is too strong. I too have spotted 
errors in it, or at least differences between it and other sources. 
Nonetheless, it is a work of considerable authority from sound academic sources 
- on such a scale it is unlikely to have avoided all errors.

I have just dug out Volume 4 of County Antrim I: the Baronies of Toome, part of 
the place-names of Northern Ireland series which, unfortunately, stopped 
appearing when the Ulster Placenames Project at Queen’s in Belfast was closed 
down. This particular volume is by Pat McKay. 

On p.15, it says:

“The civil parish of Drummaul (Randalstown) is situated in the barony of Toome 
Upper, and covers an area of 32,394 acres, of which 11,472 are in Lough Neagh 
(we stop at the shore, I notice) and 171 in the river Main (Census, 1851). It 
is bounded on the east by the parishes of Antrim, Grange of Shilnavodan and 
Connor, on the north by the parish of Ahoghill, on the west by parishes of 
Grange of Ballyscullion and Duncan and on the south by Lough Neagh. It is made 
up of 49 full town lands and the greater part of two other town lands - 
Maghereagh and Ballybollen - each of which has a small portion in the 
neighbouring parishes of Antrim and Ahoghill respectively.. The parish has a 
“detached portion’, consisting of the four townlands of Ballynacraigy, 
Killyfad, Portlee and Ballynaleney, which lie along the north-west shore of 
Lough Neagh, approximately two miles form the main section of the parish; two 
of them, Portlesss and Ballynaleney, are themselves divided into two parts, the 
“detached portion’ in each case lying a short distance to the west of the main 
townland”

This would seem to agree with the map as we have it. A complication is perhaps 
that Dr McKay was involved in both this book and in the placenamesni.org 
 website - it might be one mistake replicated.

There seems nothing within the two problematic townlands (Ballybollen and 
Maghereagh) to say what bits are Drummaul and what bits are not.

It does seem to confirm the possibility of townlands having parts in different 
civil parishes.

Stephen_Co_Antrim


> On 21 Feb 2017, at 20:34, Killyfole and District Development Association 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have actually found a few instances where placenamesni.org is actually 
> wrong!  Especially where there are two or more townlands of the same name, 
> but 
> located in different Parishes, split townlands and townlands totally 
> encompassed in another parish.   I did try to get them to fix the data, but 
> my 
> phone calls fell on deaf ears it seems.
> 
> Most of the issues in my area were easily resolved by speaking to locals and 
> the Parish map is a brilliant source now as well.
> 
> http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/oocmaps.html?
> zoom=8=53.55822=-7.85303=BF
> 
> KDDA
> 
> On Tuesday, 21 February 2017 15:16:23 GMT Stephen Roulston wrote:
>> I think I may have mapped those. It was a while ago, and I had just started
>> with boundaries. I remember being very confused.
>> 
>> If you look at http://www.placenamesni.org/map.php
>>  and zoom in to the Drummaul area, you
>> can see that they distinguish between Ahoghill/Drummaul (Ballybollen
>> townland), Drummaul/Antrim (just Maghereagh townland), as well as Drummaul
>> on its own (which contains the townland of the same name and many others).
>> Placename search for Ballybollen on the Placenamesni.org
>>  site gives the 1851 parish as Ahoghill/Drummaul
>> as is the current parish. On this definitive site, Magherreagh is said to
>> be, in the Additional Information, 3/4 in Drummaul par, 1/4 in Antrim par.
>> Which 3/4, it does not seem to indicate.
>> 
>> I know we cannot use this site information as is, but it would seem to
>> suggest something more complicated than a simple Drummaul Parish.
>> 
>> Stephen
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Splitting of CIvil Parishes?

[Stephen Roulston]

I think I may have mapped those. It was a while ago, and I had just started 
with boundaries. I remember being very confused.

If you look at http://www.placenamesni.org/map.php 
 and zoom in to the Drummaul area, you can 
see that they distinguish between Ahoghill/Drummaul (Ballybollen townland), 
Drummaul/Antrim (just Maghereagh townland), as well as Drummaul on its own 
(which contains the townland of the same name and many others). Placename 
search for Ballybollen on the Placenamesni.org  site 
gives the 1851 parish as Ahoghill/Drummaul as is the current parish. On this 
definitive site, Magherreagh is said to be, in the Additional Information, 3/4 
in Drummaul par, 1/4 in Antrim par. Which 3/4, it does not seem to indicate.

I know we cannot use this site information as is, but it would seem to suggest 
something more complicated than a simple Drummaul Parish.

Stephen
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Typos in Townland names

[Brian Tuffy]

Thanks for the feedback, I agree. I have given them their unique Logainm
ref tags and, in an effort to help distinguish them, I have given them an
alt_name "Rahard - Robeen Parish" etc. I leave all three with the name=
Rahard.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Patrick Matthews 
wrote:

> Brian,
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Brian Tuffy 
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, I have started mapping some "X (part of)" townlands as exclaves
> now
> > (part of the 'parent' townland relation). This works well for the most
> > part. I noticed that the 'parent' Townland usually has an additional
> area,
> > for example "including 10A 1R 7P  dd. portion". This area matches the
> area
> > of the exclave, so that makes sense.
> >
> > Here is a difficult example though, Although it says "Part of Rahard" it
> is
> > not obvious that it is an exclave as the 'parent' townland is about 4
> > townlands to the North West (There is even a third unrelated "Rahard" to
> > the west which makes it difficult). I can identify the correct parent
> > townland by matching the E.D. and the "area ...d.d. portion". The areas
> > match, so it IS an exclave, but a strange one. The areas are relatively
> the
> > same size and its not obvious why it is an exclave and not another
> townland
> > with the same name. I will leave it alone for now.
> > exclave:
> > http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=16=53.63809=-9.
> > 10907=B00TTFFF
> > Parent:
> > http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=17=53.67605=-9.
> > 161=B00TTFFF
>
>
>
> They're in different civil parishes but have been drawn into the same DED.
> In this case, I would say that
> they're two separate townlands which just happen to have the same name and
> are being incorrectly
> treated as two parts of the same townland.(This is a different issue to
> having a single townland "split"
> between civil parishes.) I suspect that they will have different logainm
> references as well. I made a
> similar change last week to the two Corravillas in Shercock ED (Cavan) when
> I was finishing up the
> EDs there.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Another somewhat unrelated question is, Could "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)"
> > (Ball Dumha Cinn Aille) be an exclave of nearby "Dookinnely (Calvy)"
> (Dumha
> > Cinn Aille)? In Irish, Ball can mean 'part of' and we are on Achill
> Island
> > here, so it is in the Gaeltacht. As far as I understand the (Calvy)
> ending
> > is a family name in the area. The townland was named after landowners?
> The
> > common (Calvy) part in both townlands suggests they are linked. I somehow
> > think that "Bal of Dookinnely (Calvy)" should still remain as a separate
> > townland, at least for now.
> > http://askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?
> > action=doNameSearch=0=0=Submit&
> > familyname=calvy===MAYO&
> > unionname==
> >
> >
>
> I'd be inclined to leave it as is.
>
>
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Brian Hollinshead <
> br...@hollinshead.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Re Exclave
> > > try Kiltiernan in County Dublin in townlands.ie
> > >
> > > and Kinnitty as CP, both enclaves belong to eslewhere external CPs
> > >
> > > On 17 February 2017 at 16:03, Rory McCann 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > > Hash: SHA1
> > > >
> > > > On 17/02/17 16:38, Brian Tuffy wrote:
> > > > > Just to be clear, if it is "X and Y" you should treat it as "X and
> > > > > Y", as it says on the wiki page. If it is "X or Y" then it should
> > > > > be treated as "X" or "Y" in OSM but It looks like Logainm treats "X
> > > > > or Y" as "X or Y" and so two townland names have one ref tag. The
> > > > > thing is your script will look for "Lisnakirka or Milebush" but in
> > > > > OSM it is name=Milebush and alt_name= Lis...
> > > > > https://www.logainm.ie/35706.aspx
> > > >
> > > > OK, that sounds a little more complicated. I think I'll leave it
> alone
> > > > then. We can always just find townlands with an "and" and without a
> > > > logainm:ref and manually add them. Sometimes manually adding it is
> > > > quicker than programming complicated rules.
> > > >
> > > > > It confusses me why it is Lower or Northern (North is up right!! :)
> > > > > ) but I think it might be lower in elevation possibly? I doubt it.
> > > > > Upper Bavaria is the south because it rises to the alps.  More
> > > > > interestingly, up might be to the south? you go up towards Rome in
> > > > > Irish?? More More interestingly, I hear that Irish is one of those
> > > > > languages that has an in-built sense of direction, you wouldn't say
> > > > > move over to the left, you would say move east or something
> > > > > like that. I am not sure about it. Anyway, back to the map.
> > > >
> > > > Usually "Upper" is upstream, and "lower" is downstream, near the
> mouth
> > > > of the river. e.g. the Upper Rhine Plane is in south Germany, because
> > > > that's near where the Rhine starts. So when you see "Upper X" that's
> >