Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Colm Moore]

Hi,
One thing omitted in previous posts was the impetuous to map townlands in the 
1840s - taxation via rates.
Some of the results of this was the creation of urban district councils (which 
became town councils in 2001 and were abolished in 2014) and rural district 
councils (long abolished). These were made up of District Electoral Divisions 
(later renamed Electoral Divisions) which tried to balance area and population 
(I'm sure some suitably-corrupt formula was used). Electoral Divisions are the 
primary basis for the making of constituencies for electoral purposes.
In County Dublin a result of the district councils was the creation of a string 
of moneyed townships from Ballsbridge to Killiney 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pubv2.jpg
 and an increase of commuting, facilitated by the railways. As the townships 
had mostly well-off people, they could keep rates low, as they didn't need to 
support large numbers of poor people, who mostly lived in the city proper. 
Pembroke Township (modern Dublin 4) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Township was the most prominent - You 
may have heard of Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke  commonly known as 
"Strongbow", who led https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion_of_Ireland 
That's how interconnected history is. :)
Colm

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Killian Driscoll]

On 19 August 2016 at 11:39, Stephen Roulston  wrote:

> Came across this, if not too late
>
>  Townlands, parishes and baronies were the main geopolitical units
> marked and named on the maps. These were standardised, defined and
> fixed on the maps in a way they had never been before. Through the
> choice of script style of the placename, linework marking the boundary
> and the actual fixing of the boundary itself, the Ordnance Survey was
> able to create an official and administrative landscape. Today, for
> example, townlands still define the land division for such state
> institutions
> as the Department of Agriculture (for keeping track of veterinary
> 78 Landscape, Memory and History
>  service and, more recently, the spread of foot and mouth disease).
> Townlands are the basis for recording the national census and form the
> boundaries of electoral wards (Canavan 1991; Dallat 1991). Measuring
> and fixing the townland boundary sometimes resulted in altering that
> townland, by combining smaller townlands or by dividing larger
> townlands. But while the Ordnance Survey fixed these boundaries on the
> maps for administrative purposes, local social meaning and histories
> were also being scripted in the maps.
> Baronies correspond closely to the old Gaelic Tuath  or tribal division
> and it was upon this land division unit that taxes were levied during the
> seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Parishes (many dating from the
> twelfth century) were a religious division of land over which local clergy
> had jurisdiction. But it was the townland that was (and is) the
> distinguishing,
> albeit invisible, landscape feature of Ireland. Many townland
> names are of great antiquity and they are important not just because
> they became the unit for administration during the nineteenth-century
> on the Ordnance Survey maps, but because townlands are the centralising
> focus of social identity in rural Ireland. ‘Centuries old, they have
> not only defined the land but the people’ (Canavan 1991: 49). They are
> imbued with memory and tradition through local knowledge of events or
> experiences that occurred at that place. They locate where one lives,
> linking one’s identity to belonging in land and home (Lovell 1998).
>
> It is from "Landscape, Memory and History: Anthropological Perspectives”
> Edited by Stewart, P and Strathern, A (2003) in the chapter by Angèle Smith
> "Landscape Representation: Place and Identity in Nineteenth Century
> Ordnance Survey Maps of Ireland"
>

Yes, that is an excerpt of the article I posted a link to the pdf four days
ago:

This pdf talks a bit about the history and the naming in the 19C etc
>> Landscape representation: Place and identity in nineteenth-century
ordnance
>> survey maps of *Ireland*
>> <
http://www.academia.edu/download/15820198/20110506220925888.pdf#page=76 <
http://www.academia.edu/download/15820198/20110506220925888.pdf#page=76>>>
>> A Smith - Landscape, Memory and *History*, Pluto Press: London, 2003 -

>
>
> > On 16 Aug 2016, at 12:42, Stephen Roulston  wrote:
> >
> > Below is paraphrased (and a little extended) from the general
> introduction in the Place-names of Northern Ireland series published by the
> Northern Ireland Place-name Project, Department of Celtic, Queen’s
> University Belfast
> >
> > Earliest place names are found in mainly Irish language material,
> sometimes in Latin, from 7th or 8th centuries. This is them written for the
> first time - they are much older than that. The Irish Annals, started about
> 550AD, had many place names particularly of tribes, settlements and
> topographical features. Some of the legends recorded in the Annals give
> explanations of place names. For example, the triumphal charge around
> Ireland of the Brown Bull at the end of the Tain Bo Cuillaigne is said to
> have generated many names. The townland/region of Athlone or Áth Luain was
> named from the loins (luan) of the White-horned bull that the Brown Bull
> killed there. Some must be very ancient. A number relate to Maeve, who
> originated as a Mother Earth fertility god. There is Ballypitmaeve, close
> to Glenavy in Co.Antrim, for instance, where the fertility reference is
> very clear.
> >
> > We cannot know how old townland names are, but it is clear that they are
> very ancient, and they were present, and probably already very old when
> written records began in Ireland. Incidentally, it is ironic that it took
> the Plantation in the 17th Century to gather the names in a systematic way.
> It is also curious that, while Sir William Petty, who surveyed much of
> Ireland, said that Irish place names were ‘uncouth and unintelligible’ and
> that ‘where they cannot be abolished’, they should be translated into
> English, the planters in most cases retained the original names.
> >
> 

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Stephen Roulston]

Came across this, if not too late

 Townlands, parishes and baronies were the main geopolitical units
marked and named on the maps. These were standardised, defined and
fixed on the maps in a way they had never been before. Through the
choice of script style of the placename, linework marking the boundary
and the actual fixing of the boundary itself, the Ordnance Survey was
able to create an official and administrative landscape. Today, for
example, townlands still define the land division for such state institutions
as the Department of Agriculture (for keeping track of veterinary
78 Landscape, Memory and History
 service and, more recently, the spread of foot and mouth disease).
Townlands are the basis for recording the national census and form the
boundaries of electoral wards (Canavan 1991; Dallat 1991). Measuring
and fixing the townland boundary sometimes resulted in altering that
townland, by combining smaller townlands or by dividing larger
townlands. But while the Ordnance Survey fixed these boundaries on the
maps for administrative purposes, local social meaning and histories
were also being scripted in the maps.
Baronies correspond closely to the old Gaelic Tuath  or tribal division
and it was upon this land division unit that taxes were levied during the
seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Parishes (many dating from the
twelfth century) were a religious division of land over which local clergy
had jurisdiction. But it was the townland that was (and is) the distinguishing,
albeit invisible, landscape feature of Ireland. Many townland
names are of great antiquity and they are important not just because
they became the unit for administration during the nineteenth-century
on the Ordnance Survey maps, but because townlands are the centralising
focus of social identity in rural Ireland. ‘Centuries old, they have
not only defined the land but the people’ (Canavan 1991: 49). They are
imbued with memory and tradition through local knowledge of events or
experiences that occurred at that place. They locate where one lives,
linking one’s identity to belonging in land and home (Lovell 1998).

It is from "Landscape, Memory and History: Anthropological Perspectives” Edited 
by Stewart, P and Strathern, A (2003) in the chapter by Angèle Smith "Landscape 
Representation: Place and Identity in Nineteenth Century Ordnance Survey Maps 
of Ireland"


> On 16 Aug 2016, at 12:42, Stephen Roulston  wrote:
> 
> Below is paraphrased (and a little extended) from the general introduction in 
> the Place-names of Northern Ireland series published by the Northern Ireland 
> Place-name Project, Department of Celtic, Queen’s University Belfast
> 
> Earliest place names are found in mainly Irish language material, sometimes 
> in Latin, from 7th or 8th centuries. This is them written for the first time 
> - they are much older than that. The Irish Annals, started about 550AD, had 
> many place names particularly of tribes, settlements and topographical 
> features. Some of the legends recorded in the Annals give explanations of 
> place names. For example, the triumphal charge around Ireland of the Brown 
> Bull at the end of the Tain Bo Cuillaigne is said to have generated many 
> names. The townland/region of Athlone or Áth Luain was named from the loins 
> (luan) of the White-horned bull that the Brown Bull killed there. Some must 
> be very ancient. A number relate to Maeve, who originated as a Mother Earth 
> fertility god. There is Ballypitmaeve, close to Glenavy in Co.Antrim, for 
> instance, where the fertility reference is very clear.
> 
> We cannot know how old townland names are, but it is clear that they are very 
> ancient, and they were present, and probably already very old when written 
> records began in Ireland. Incidentally, it is ironic that it took the 
> Plantation in the 17th Century to gather the names in a systematic way. It is 
> also curious that, while Sir William Petty, who surveyed much of Ireland, 
> said that Irish place names were ‘uncouth and unintelligible’ and that ‘where 
> they cannot be abolished’, they should be translated into English, the 
> planters in most cases retained the original names. 
> 
> 
>> On 15 Aug 2016, at 19:14, Killian Driscoll > > wrote:
>> 
>> On 15 August 2016 at 20:01, Killian Driscoll >  > >>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 15 August 2016 at 19:17, Rory McCann >> > wrote:
>>> 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Hiya,
 
 As yous know, myself and Dave are doing a talk about townlands at the
 global OSM conferences, State of the Map, in Brussels in September.
 
 Can anyone tell me more about the history of townlands? Something nice
 to add to a slide?
 

Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Stephen Roulston]

Below is paraphrased (and a little extended) from the general introduction in 
the Place-names of Northern Ireland series published by the Northern Ireland 
Place-name Project, Department of Celtic, Queen’s University Belfast

Earliest place names are found in mainly Irish language material, sometimes in 
Latin, from 7th or 8th centuries. This is them written for the first time - 
they are much older than that. The Irish Annals, started about 550AD, had many 
place names particularly of tribes, settlements and topographical features. 
Some of the legends recorded in the Annals give explanations of place names. 
For example, the triumphal charge around Ireland of the Brown Bull at the end 
of the Tain Bo Cuillaigne is said to have generated many names. The 
townland/region of Athlone or Áth Luain was named from the loins (luan) of the 
White-horned bull that the Brown Bull killed there. Some must be very ancient. 
A number relate to Maeve, who originated as a Mother Earth fertility god. There 
is Ballypitmaeve, close to Glenavy in Co.Antrim, for instance, where the 
fertility reference is very clear.

We cannot know how old townland names are, but it is clear that they are very 
ancient, and they were present, and probably already very old when written 
records began in Ireland. Incidentally, it is ironic that it took the 
Plantation in the 17th Century to gather the names in a systematic way. It is 
also curious that, while Sir William Petty, who surveyed much of Ireland, said 
that Irish place names were ‘uncouth and unintelligible’ and that ‘where they 
cannot be abolished’, they should be translated into English, the planters in 
most cases retained the original names. 


> On 15 Aug 2016, at 19:14, Killian Driscoll  wrote:
> 
> On 15 August 2016 at 20:01, Killian Driscoll  >
> wrote:
> 
>> On 15 August 2016 at 19:17, Rory McCann  wrote:
>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hiya,
>>> 
>>> As yous know, myself and Dave are doing a talk about townlands at the
>>> global OSM conferences, State of the Map, in Brussels in September.
>>> 
>>> Can anyone tell me more about the history of townlands? Something nice
>>> to add to a slide?
>>> 
>> 
>> See this which talks about boundaries - Baronies etc (you could say the
>> townlands line up with the baronies) - based from the Iron Age
>> https://www.academia.edu/3206604/Kingship_and_
>> Sacrifice_Iron_Age_Bog_Bodies_and_Boundaries if you Google the bog bodies
>> in images you should get some you can use
>> 
> 
> This pdf talks a bit about the history and the naming in the 19C etc
> Landscape representation: Place and identity in nineteenth-century ordnance
> survey maps of *Ireland*
>  >
> A Smith - Landscape, Memory and *History*, Pluto Press: London, 2003 -
> academia.edu 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> I've heard that townlands were mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge. Can
>>> anyone tell me more about this?
>>> 
>>> I looked at [the scans of the Lebor na hUidre (Book of the Dun
>>> Cow)](https://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?https://www.isos.
>>> dias.ie/libraries/RIA/RIA_MS_23_E_25/english/index.html?
>>> ref=http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/english/ria_menu.html?ref=),
>>> is anyone able to point to a word on a page and say "This is townland
>>> X in Co. Whatever". (I tried it myself, but er, it's Old Irish). It
>>> would impress to the Americans & other Europeans that the townlands
>>> are ancient, and a part of our history, heritage and culture. We
>>> didn't spend all these years mapping them just cause.
>>> 
>>> Any hints?
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>>> 
>>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXsfkoAAoJEOrWdmeZivv2NkoH/2dD/XUWA/3EDX/t04G4C+r+
>>> FYzLmLgkGIplClf7w1Ux0wB/6ZYgtht6dvZ8DQvRaG6YxbREZXA40HLfcsLoSru2
>>> 1/eAOZeEReft7oQjugsZs+uPUNzX01PZ4bk7GTZ12/bfCDwcdAX8lAJhwIGl+Lf2
>>> ZWKaVCNq5UmCZtUJvTs/3u5YX3nVrYorjwkQ2+X6/T/Y/jN71kxen1vLrMNJRiQ+
>>> 7oEAesQwUT6Vj87mMKJ2Iw3N/6LG6TxwfHSn2etF7Syb4geOV/K6kjPblcQ1usQ5
>>> PBSB2OB9h5Apav9QyLIq+u/P1NILDOzUJbSAv/qmyMSUBC3IArhw1hohgGum938=
>>> =1GX2
>>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Killian Driscoll]

On 15 August 2016 at 20:01, Killian Driscoll 
wrote:

> On 15 August 2016 at 19:17, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> As yous know, myself and Dave are doing a talk about townlands at the
>> global OSM conferences, State of the Map, in Brussels in September.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me more about the history of townlands? Something nice
>> to add to a slide?
>>
>
> See this which talks about boundaries - Baronies etc (you could say the
> townlands line up with the baronies) - based from the Iron Age
> https://www.academia.edu/3206604/Kingship_and_
> Sacrifice_Iron_Age_Bog_Bodies_and_Boundaries if you Google the bog bodies
> in images you should get some you can use
>

This pdf talks a bit about the history and the naming in the 19C etc
Landscape representation: Place and identity in nineteenth-century ordnance
survey maps of *Ireland*

A Smith - Landscape, Memory and *History*, Pluto Press: London, 2003 -
academia.edu

>
>
>
>
>> I've heard that townlands were mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge. Can
>> anyone tell me more about this?
>>
>> I looked at [the scans of the Lebor na hUidre (Book of the Dun
>> Cow)](https://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?https://www.isos.
>> dias.ie/libraries/RIA/RIA_MS_23_E_25/english/index.html?
>> ref=http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/english/ria_menu.html?ref=),
>> is anyone able to point to a word on a page and say "This is townland
>> X in Co. Whatever". (I tried it myself, but er, it's Old Irish). It
>> would impress to the Americans & other Europeans that the townlands
>> are ancient, and a part of our history, heritage and culture. We
>> didn't spend all these years mapping them just cause.
>>
>> Any hints?
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXsfkoAAoJEOrWdmeZivv2NkoH/2dD/XUWA/3EDX/t04G4C+r+
>> FYzLmLgkGIplClf7w1Ux0wB/6ZYgtht6dvZ8DQvRaG6YxbREZXA40HLfcsLoSru2
>> 1/eAOZeEReft7oQjugsZs+uPUNzX01PZ4bk7GTZ12/bfCDwcdAX8lAJhwIGl+Lf2
>> ZWKaVCNq5UmCZtUJvTs/3u5YX3nVrYorjwkQ2+X6/T/Y/jN71kxen1vLrMNJRiQ+
>> 7oEAesQwUT6Vj87mMKJ2Iw3N/6LG6TxwfHSn2etF7Syb4geOV/K6kjPblcQ1usQ5
>> PBSB2OB9h5Apav9QyLIq+u/P1NILDOzUJbSAv/qmyMSUBC3IArhw1hohgGum938=
>> =1GX2
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Killian Driscoll]

On 15 August 2016 at 19:17, Rory McCann  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hiya,
>
> As yous know, myself and Dave are doing a talk about townlands at the
> global OSM conferences, State of the Map, in Brussels in September.
>
> Can anyone tell me more about the history of townlands? Something nice
> to add to a slide?
>

See this which talks about boundaries - Baronies etc (you could say the
townlands line up with the baronies) - based from the Iron Age
https://www.academia.edu/3206604/Kingship_and_Sacrifice_Iron_Age_Bog_Bodies_and_Boundaries
if you Google the bog bodies in images you should get some you can use




> I've heard that townlands were mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge. Can
> anyone tell me more about this?
>
> I looked at [the scans of the Lebor na hUidre (Book of the Dun
> Cow)](https://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?https://www.
> isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/RIA_MS_23_E_25/english/index.
> html?ref=http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/english/ria_menu.html?ref=
> ),
> is anyone able to point to a word on a page and say "This is townland
> X in Co. Whatever". (I tried it myself, but er, it's Old Irish). It
> would impress to the Americans & other Europeans that the townlands
> are ancient, and a part of our history, heritage and culture. We
> didn't spend all these years mapping them just cause.
>
> Any hints?
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXsfkoAAoJEOrWdmeZivv2NkoH/2dD/XUWA/3EDX/t04G4C+r+
> FYzLmLgkGIplClf7w1Ux0wB/6ZYgtht6dvZ8DQvRaG6YxbREZXA40HLfcsLoSru2
> 1/eAOZeEReft7oQjugsZs+uPUNzX01PZ4bk7GTZ12/bfCDwcdAX8lAJhwIGl+Lf2
> ZWKaVCNq5UmCZtUJvTs/3u5YX3nVrYorjwkQ2+X6/T/Y/jN71kxen1vLrMNJRiQ+
> 7oEAesQwUT6Vj87mMKJ2Iw3N/6LG6TxwfHSn2etF7Syb4geOV/K6kjPblcQ1usQ5
> PBSB2OB9h5Apav9QyLIq+u/P1NILDOzUJbSAv/qmyMSUBC3IArhw1hohgGum938=
> =1GX2
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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[OSM-talk-ie] History of Townlands - What can we put on a slide?

[Rory McCann]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hiya,

As yous know, myself and Dave are doing a talk about townlands at the
global OSM conferences, State of the Map, in Brussels in September.

Can anyone tell me more about the history of townlands? Something nice
to add to a slide?

I've heard that townlands were mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge. Can
anyone tell me more about this?

I looked at [the scans of the Lebor na hUidre (Book of the Dun
Cow)](https://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?https://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/RIA_MS_23_E_25/english/index.html?ref=http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/english/ria_menu.html?ref=),
is anyone able to point to a word on a page and say "This is townland
X in Co. Whatever". (I tried it myself, but er, it's Old Irish). It
would impress to the Americans & other Europeans that the townlands
are ancient, and a part of our history, heritage and culture. We
didn't spend all these years mapping them just cause.

Any hints?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXsfkoAAoJEOrWdmeZivv2NkoH/2dD/XUWA/3EDX/t04G4C+r+
FYzLmLgkGIplClf7w1Ux0wB/6ZYgtht6dvZ8DQvRaG6YxbREZXA40HLfcsLoSru2
1/eAOZeEReft7oQjugsZs+uPUNzX01PZ4bk7GTZ12/bfCDwcdAX8lAJhwIGl+Lf2
ZWKaVCNq5UmCZtUJvTs/3u5YX3nVrYorjwkQ2+X6/T/Y/jN71kxen1vLrMNJRiQ+
7oEAesQwUT6Vj87mMKJ2Iw3N/6LG6TxwfHSn2etF7Syb4geOV/K6kjPblcQ1usQ5
PBSB2OB9h5Apav9QyLIq+u/P1NILDOzUJbSAv/qmyMSUBC3IArhw1hohgGum938=
=1GX2
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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