Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

19. Jun 2018 19:39 by ok...@johnfreed.com :


> On balance, it seems to me that the tagging should reflect the term used to 
> publicize the line by the operator, rather than some esoteric technicality 
> knowable only to civil engineers and wiki readers. 




As long as it is not completely diverging from reality I would accept it




- something goes on rubber tyres, has dedicated tracks, looks like tram and is 
called a tram 


   - OK, for me it can be tagged as tram




- something looks like a bus, is normal bus vehicle, has no dedicated tracks 
and is called a tram

  - should be tagged as a bus, no matter how it is called by its operator




So I would use "term used to publicize the line" only if it is on the border.

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Johnparis]

Thanks for the input.

I like the idea of tram:type=rubber-tyred

But the main sticking point (at least on the French list) that I've seen
seems to be the word "railway", since tram is defined as a subdivision of
that. ("How can you call it a tram if there's no steel rail?") I'm thinking
that perhaps something like

transitway=tram/bus/train/subway

might be a better tag for dedicated transit ways. (Obviously this would not
work for ways where cars share the space; those would still need a
highway=* tag rather than transitway=*)

By the way, I'm only posing this question because I was helping a newbie
who wanted to do some mapping of trams. I personally stick to mapping buses.

On balance, it seems to me that the tagging should reflect the term used to
publicize the line by the operator, rather than some esoteric technicality
knowable only to civil engineers and wiki readers. This is keeping the end
user in mind. If I am in Lyon and I know there's a tram "somewhere nearby",
but it's tagged as a bus_guideway, my search results will be:

google maps = found
bing maps = found
OSM = zero

... and I will no doubt start grumbling ...

On the other hand, if the operator advertises it as a bus, I'll have no
problem, assuming my search engine will find a bus_guideway (with stops
appropriately tagged as bus=yes).


On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 5:32 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> After looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams
> especially "The Translohr system operates as a guided vehicle at all
> times,
> while with the Bombardier system the vehicles can be driven autonomously
> as requirements dictate, such as journeys to the depot."
>
> I would define Translohr system as a tram and Bombardier system as a bus
> on a guideway.
>
> This vehicle is on the edge between these two systems, and classification
> depends on
> a definition used - so in the end I would be OK with any decision (both
> tram and
> bus_guideway are defensible).
>
> 16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com:
>
>
> Maybe a solution is:
>
> railway=tram
> tram: type = bus_guideway
>
>
> Maybe tram:type = rubber-tyred?
>
>
> (name stolen from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams )
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

After looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams 
especially "The Translohr 
system operates as a guided vehicle at all times, 
while with the Bombardier system the vehicles can be driven autonomously 
as requirements dictate, such as journeys to the depot."

I would define Translohr system as a tram and Bombardier system as a bus on a 
guideway.
This vehicle is on the edge between these two systems, and classification 
depends ona definition used - so in the end I would be OK with any decision 
(both tram and 
bus_guideway are defensible).

16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com :
>
> Maybe a solution is:
> railway=tram> tram: type = bus_guideway




Maybe tram:type = rubber-tyred?




(name stolen from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-tyred_trams 
 )

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Johnparis]

No, it was a private conversation that covered a lot of other ground. The
technical details are in the wiki, however, in the section on guided buses.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
>
>
> 16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com:
>
> I asked TRuchin, who gave me a technical explanation. (Apparently the
> wheels are different.)
>
>
> Is this discussion on forum, changeset discussion or other public place
> that can be linked ?
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Mateusz Konieczny]

16. Jun 2018 01:08 by ok...@johnfreed.com :


> I asked TRuchin, who gave me a technical explanation. (Apparently the wheels 
> are different.)




Is this discussion on forum, changeset discussion or other public place that 
can be linked ?

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Re: [Talk-transit] tram vs. bus_guideway

[Wolfgang]

Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2018, 01:08:52 CEST schrieb Johnparis:
> Hello,
> 
> I've posted this question on the French transport list as well.
> 
> When examining the changesets of RB94, I found an anomaly.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/552199042/history
> 
> The question is: what, exactly, is a tram?
> 
> I asked TRuchin, who gave me a technical explanation. (Apparently the
> wheels are different.)
> 
> But I think this is a tram, not a kind of bus:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_tramway_Line_5#/media/File:
> T5_-_Sarcelles_-_Albert_Camus.JPG
> 
> I use the duck test. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a
> duck.
> 
> The RATP calls it a tram. Its name is "T6", T for Tram. So to me, it's a
> tram.

Yes, it's a tram. A bus_guideway means a way, and only a way, where the bus is 
guided by hard- or software on a particular way which cannot be used by other 
traffic, but the vehicles on this way are normal busses with an addition of a 
guide-system. They can use normal streets as well and can be steered by the 
driver as any other bus.

A tram is a vehicle which is not able to use other than guided ways of any 
kind (rails, street with guide rail, etc.). It cannot be steered individually. 
It makes no difference whether it runs on wheels of steel or tires.

> 
> Finally, if we want to use the tag highway=bus_guideway, and not
> railway=tram, we should change all the stops, because they should be:
> highway=bus_stop + public_transport=platform + bus=yes

-1

> 
> not :
> railway=tram_stop + public_transport=platform + tram=yes
> 
> Maybe a solution is:
> 
> railway=tram
> tram: type = bus_guideway
> 
> Other ideas?

railway=tram
highway=secondary(?,...) if usable by other vehicles
access=...(bus? if a bus runs on the same way)

> 
> Regards,
> 
> John

Regards

Wolfgang



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