Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Rihards]

On 2018.04.20. 01:12, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> "I'm totally open to suggestions for alternatives.  Gravel certainly
> doesn't describe that kind of coarse crushed rock to most people, but
> what do you call that concisely?"
> 
> The roadway in the OP's opening post has what I would definitely tag as
> a gravel surface but it has obviously been groomed to carry heavier
> traffic than many similar roads. Thus surface=gravel or surface=unpaved
> along with tracktype=grade1 (wiki: grade1 = Usually a paved or heavily
> compacted hardcore surface). Whether such roads have actually been
> mechanically compacted isn't obvious from their appearance. Perhaps some
> sort of final step was employed to prepare them for use.

It might be worth avoiding paved/unpaved. Usually, if you are tagging
surface, you can make at least a good guess on what is it. While
paved/unpaved provides some information, it is still highly desirable to
expand on it later (gravel, compacted, sand, ground etc ? - big difference).

> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Paul Johnson  > wrote:...
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> "I'm totally open to suggestions for alternatives.  Gravel certainly
> doesn't describe that kind of coarse crushed rock to most people, but what
> do you call that concisely?"
>
> The roadway in the OP's opening post has what I would definitely tag as a
> gravel surface but it has obviously been groomed to carry heavier traffic
> than many similar roads. Thus surface=gravel or surface=unpaved along with
> tracktype=grade1 (wiki: grade1 = Usually a paved or heavily compacted
> hardcore surface). Whether such roads have actually been mechanically
> compacted isn't obvious from their appearance. Perhaps some sort of
> final step was employed to prepare them for use.
>

I'm not sure you're on the same page.  I agree with Dave's assessment that
the road he posted was surface=gravel and the cycleway he posted was
surface=compacted (albeit in poor shape for a compacted surface).
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Dave Swarthout]

"I'm totally open to suggestions for alternatives.  Gravel certainly
doesn't describe that kind of coarse crushed rock to most people, but what
do you call that concisely?"

The roadway in the OP's opening post has what I would definitely tag as a
gravel surface but it has obviously been groomed to carry heavier traffic
than many similar roads. Thus surface=gravel or surface=unpaved along with
tracktype=grade1 (wiki: grade1 = Usually a paved or heavily compacted
hardcore surface). Whether such roads have actually been mechanically
compacted isn't obvious from their appearance. Perhaps some sort of
final step was employed to prepare them for use.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 16:41 Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> " I'm kind of thinking that the gravel surface in the wiki would be
>> better redone as surface=ballast. "
>>
>> -1
>>
>> I hope you won't push for this.
>>
>
> I'm totally open to suggestions for alternatives.  Gravel certainly
> doesn't describe that kind of coarse crushed rock to most people, but what
> do you call that concisely?
>
> In my experience, the only association the word "ballast" has with any
>> sort of roadway is with railroads.
>>
>
> It is definitely a thing for pretty much any kind of improved road, though
> there are some exceptions that usually turn out worse than unimproved.
> Many paths in metro Portland were paved in asphalt without ballast and have
> degraded rapidly as gophers have dug out the dirt under the asphalt
> allowing the asphalt to collapse into the gopher tunnels over the years.
> And generally, the more ballast under the surface, the heavier the loads
> and higher the speed the road is capable of handling reasonably.
>
> And, as I said before, the idea of actual railroad ballast being used as
>> the surface of a road is totally foreign to me.
>>
>
> It is relatively rare, largely limited to agricultural and temporary
> applications, at least in the US.
>
>
>


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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 16:41 Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> " I'm kind of thinking that the gravel surface in the wiki would be
> better redone as surface=ballast. "
>
> -1
>
> I hope you won't push for this.
>

I'm totally open to suggestions for alternatives.  Gravel certainly doesn't
describe that kind of coarse crushed rock to most people, but what do you
call that concisely?

In my experience, the only association the word "ballast" has with any sort
> of roadway is with railroads.
>

It is definitely a thing for pretty much any kind of improved road, though
there are some exceptions that usually turn out worse than unimproved.
Many paths in metro Portland were paved in asphalt without ballast and have
degraded rapidly as gophers have dug out the dirt under the asphalt
allowing the asphalt to collapse into the gopher tunnels over the years.
And generally, the more ballast under the surface, the heavier the loads
and higher the speed the road is capable of handling reasonably.

And, as I said before, the idea of actual railroad ballast being used as
> the surface of a road is totally foreign to me.
>

It is relatively rare, largely limited to agricultural and temporary
applications, at least in the US.
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Dave Swarthout]

" I'm kind of thinking that the gravel surface in the wiki would be better
redone as surface=ballast. "

-1

I hope you won't push for this. In my experience, the only association the
word "ballast" has with any sort of roadway is with railroads. And, as I
said before, the idea of actual railroad ballast being used as the surface
of a road is totally foreign to me. Although such roads may exist
somewhere, in my travels I have NEVER seen a rural unpaved road with
anything even resembling railroad ballast for a surface.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 21:51 Harald Kliems  wrote:
>
>> I think compacted is definitely the best way to tag, but I agree with
>> Toby's point that common terms conflicting with OSM terminology is going to
>> lead to lots of errors. Looking at my own edits, I have mistakenly used
>> surface=gravel quite frequently. Not really sure what to do -- a "did you
>> really mean to tag 'surface=gravel'?" error message/tooltip in the editor?
>> I think actual gravel in the sense of the wiki is quite rare.
>>
>
> I'm kind of thinking that the gravel surface in the wiki would be better
> redone as surface=ballast.
>
> The only things that grain of gravel gets used for that might be regularly
> observed by laymen (yeah, I know about building foundations, sand filters,
> French drains, etc) would be roadbeds surfaced by something else (gravel;
> compacted gravel that's basically a paved road minus the tar and binders;
> asphalt; concrete; etc, thus making this material visible only during
> construction, repair or severe decay; or rails), and to fill in
> particularly bad parts of trails or tracks that got washed out before.
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 21:51 Harald Kliems  wrote:

> I think compacted is definitely the best way to tag, but I agree with
> Toby's point that common terms conflicting with OSM terminology is going to
> lead to lots of errors. Looking at my own edits, I have mistakenly used
> surface=gravel quite frequently. Not really sure what to do -- a "did you
> really mean to tag 'surface=gravel'?" error message/tooltip in the editor?
> I think actual gravel in the sense of the wiki is quite rare.
>

I'm kind of thinking that the gravel surface in the wiki would be better
redone as surface=ballast.

The only things that grain of gravel gets used for that might be regularly
observed by laymen (yeah, I know about building foundations, sand filters,
French drains, etc) would be roadbeds surfaced by something else (gravel;
compacted gravel that's basically a paved road minus the tar and binders;
asphalt; concrete; etc, thus making this material visible only during
construction, repair or severe decay; or rails), and to fill in
particularly bad parts of trails or tracks that got washed out before.
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Harald Kliems]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:10 PM Rihards  wrote:

> While possibly correct for western Europe, more eastwards that is not
> correct. A lot of compacted roads. By distance, probably more than paved.
> Pure gravel usually is reserved for smaller segments where very low
> travel speed is expected - like service roads for new residential
> development, driveways etc.
>
Yeah, I grew up in Germany, and while we have almost no unpaved
highway=unclassified and above, there is a dense network of agricultural
and forestry tracks that would fall under the current surface=compacted
definition. These generally have access restricted to non-motorized traffic
and forestry/agricultural use. Stuff like this:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZAojzG2aPvD01BGF2
Funnily enough, the way in that picture is also tagged as surface=gravel.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40755302

So I guess we North Americans aren't the only ones confused about this.

 Harald.
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Rihards]

On 2018.04.19. 17:53, Max Erickson wrote:
>> I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
>> they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
>> limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
>> smooth surface after several months of traffic.
> 
> Having read about this some since Tobey mentioned it on Slack, the
> compaction is often meant to come from traffic.
> 
> In the Midwest the material is often from local "gravel pits" which
> are glacial material, so a mix of sand and rounded stone. I think they
> do some sorting and remixing of the material before using it for road
> surface construction, and they definitely add clay as a binder.
> 
> I think the use of clean stone (the wiki gravel) is more common for
> ornamental driveways than for any road meant to bear much traffic.
> Apparently part of the issue is that there aren't many built roads in
> the UK (and Europe in general) that aren't sealed.

While possibly correct for western Europe, more eastwards that is not
correct. A lot of compacted roads. By distance, probably more than paved.
Pure gravel usually is reserved for smaller segments where very low
travel speed is expected - like service roads for new residential
development, driveways etc.

> Max
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Toby Murray]

I think the road bed is compacted and built up to provide a crown so
water runs off but the gravel itself is not compacted on the surface.

So putting some numbers in here... there are only 5,700
surface=compacted ways in the US. On the other hand, there are 107,000
surface=gravel. And I am willing to bet a fair sum that 99% of those
do not follow the wiki definition of 4-8cm rocks.

Soo yeah... does anyone want to update the wiki? :)

Toby

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:04 AM, Richard Fairhurst
 wrote:
> Jack Burke wrote:
>> Keep in mind that OSM apparently uses "compacted" to refer to
>> macadamized roads, which is a specific process for building roads.
>
> surface=compacted in OSM, following British English usage, is traditionally
> as described on pages 18-20 of this document:
>
> https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/migrated-pdfs/Technical%20Note%208%20-%20Path%20surfaces(1).pdf
>
> "Self-binding gravel paths are versions of the standard limestone dust
> surface... The material is spread and levelled using a paving machine whilst
> damp/moist and then compacted using a roller or vibrating plate. The
> material 'sets' when dry, but not to the same extent as would a concrete or
> bitmac. The surface remains loose-ish and dusty"
>
> From Toby's original posting, I'd describe the first image as
> surface=gravel, since it doesn't appear to have been compacted with a
> roller. The second is probably =fine_gravel, perhaps =compacted. I'd ignore
> the wiki because the wiki, to borrow a phrase, sucks rocks.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:53 AM, Max Erickson 
wrote:

> >I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
> >they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
> >limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
> >smooth surface after several months of traffic.
>
> Having read about this some since Tobey mentioned it on Slack, the
> compaction is often meant to come from traffic.
>
> In the Midwest the material is often from local "gravel pits" which
> are glacial material, so a mix of sand and rounded stone. I think they
> do some sorting and remixing of the material before using it for road
> surface construction, and they definitely add clay as a binder.
>
> I think the use of clean stone (the wiki gravel) is more common for
> ornamental driveways than for any road meant to bear much traffic.
> Apparently part of the issue is that there aren't many built roads in
> the UK (and Europe in general) that aren't sealed.
>

Exactly - I'm guessing that we're once again dealing with something that's
familiar to us but nearly unheard of in Europe.

Around here, the native rock is sedimentary and ranges from limestone to
limy shale to various sandstones and conglomerates, that is then highly
sculpted by glaciers and water - both above and underground, the terrain is
karstic. Lots of rural roads are laid in crushed stone - which tends to
include everything from the above mix except the good limestone, which is
too valuable as a cement feedstock. (It has just the right trace minerals
to make high-quality hydraulic cement.) The material is both limy and
clay-ey enough to make it both aggregate and binder.

Across hilltops, the woods roads are often enough made simply by scraping
away the topsoil, which might not be more than a few cm deep, and exposing
the native shale. It's flat enough to drive on, and spallation makes both
aggregate and fines for a natural macadam.

There are also roads in some of the old fishing communities down at the
coast that are paved in crushed oyster shell. That's again a material
that's limy and prone to spallation, so again provides both aggregate and
binder. (I suppose it's the same stuff, only Holocene rather than Devonian!)

None of these are sealed. Once the snow is gone, the highway department -
or the landowners - will come through with a grader and maybe a truck or
two of fresh aggregate, smooth out the frost heaves, clear the rock slides,
and let the traffic compact the surface again.

They do run to being dusty in dry weather, and some of them aren't nearly
as well drained as they might be.

The locals call them 'dirt' roads, but they are definitely an improved
surface - the better ones are safe to drive on at 50 km/h or so.

I've been tagging them 'surface=compacted', but recognize that it's
controversial. None of the Wiki categories fit properly, making me suspect
that this sort of road doesn't exist in the places that the Wiki editors
(so far) are familiar with.

Even what to put in 'highway=*' is controversial for some of these. Some
that I'm familiar with are most definitely highway=tertiary at least.
Labeling them 'highway=track' is surely not correct when they are the main
roads into and out of the settlements they serve. Wiki agrees with me here:
'track' refers to agricultural or forestry use, not to the quality of the
road surface.
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Richard Fairhurst]

Jack Burke wrote:
> Keep in mind that OSM apparently uses "compacted" to refer to 
> macadamized roads, which is a specific process for building roads. 

surface=compacted in OSM, following British English usage, is traditionally
as described on pages 18-20 of this document:

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/migrated-pdfs/Technical%20Note%208%20-%20Path%20surfaces(1).pdf

"Self-binding gravel paths are versions of the standard limestone dust
surface... The material is spread and levelled using a paving machine whilst
damp/moist and then compacted using a roller or vibrating plate. The
material 'sets' when dry, but not to the same extent as would a concrete or
bitmac. The surface remains loose-ish and dusty"

From Toby's original posting, I'd describe the first image as
surface=gravel, since it doesn't appear to have been compacted with a
roller. The second is probably =fine_gravel, perhaps =compacted. I'd ignore
the wiki because the wiki, to borrow a phrase, sucks rocks.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Jack Burke  wrote:

> Keep in mind that OSM apparently uses "compacted" to refer to macadamized
> roads, which is a specific process for building roads.
>
> Maybe they wiki should be updated to say that roads with loose pieces of
> gravel scattered around but a hardened underlying surface is compacted, not
> gravel?
>

I don't quite grasp the categories on the Wiki.

I know that there are a good many rural roads around here that are finished
with crushed stone (typically ones that would go through a 1-2 cm sieve)
and fine sand. I'm not aware of a binder to harden the surface - certainly
asphalt is not used. The local soil is limy enough that it could be that
Mother Nature provides an adequate binder Herself, or it could be that the
surface is simply traditional angled-stone macadam. Certainly it would not
support high-volume traffic. It's dusty and the surface would fall apart
under a heavy load.

The advantage of the stuff is that a grader, roller and a couple of dump
trucks can repair all the damage from frost heaves and rockslides much
faster than the roadbuilding crew for a deep-bedded asphalt road. Many of
these roads are open only seasonally - nominally they close 1 December-15
April, but in practice they'll stay open longer if there's no snow, open
early if the conditions allow, or open late if Spring is late in arriving.

I label it 'compacted', but the Wiki definitions don't seem to fit exactly.

I've also tagged a couple of roads 'surface=shale'. They are places where
the road is laid our by clearing the soil - often only a few cm thick -
from native shale. The passage of traffic compacts the shale, providing a
fine-grained surface, and the native shale is limy enough that it forms
quite a good surface for driving. It does have a bad habit of forming
fissures and sinkholes - a natural hazard of karst terrain.

And there are a couple of roads that I've tagged 'surface=shells'. They're
old roads in a fishing village, macadamized using crushed oyster shells as
both aggregate and binder. Again, they provide a fair surface for traffic.
Oh lordy, though, do they ever stink for a week or two after being laid
down!

The locals call all of these, 'dirt roads.' They are not.
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Max Erickson]

>I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
>they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
>limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
>smooth surface after several months of traffic.

Having read about this some since Tobey mentioned it on Slack, the
compaction is often meant to come from traffic.

In the Midwest the material is often from local "gravel pits" which
are glacial material, so a mix of sand and rounded stone. I think they
do some sorting and remixing of the material before using it for road
surface construction, and they definitely add clay as a binder.

I think the use of clean stone (the wiki gravel) is more common for
ornamental driveways than for any road meant to bear much traffic.
Apparently part of the issue is that there aren't many built roads in
the UK (and Europe in general) that aren't sealed.


Max

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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Dave Swarthout]

 + I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
+ they're technically compacted.

Same here - "dirt roads", as we used to call them, are not compacted except
by vehicles driving on them. I learned the term "compacted" in OSM. In my
area, NY State and Alaska, the gravel is what's known as pit run, or is dug
from gravel quarries, spread out with a road-grader and not normally
compacted. Once or twice a year, a road-grader goes out and scrapes the
surface to remove ruts and potholes.

I often use surface=unpaved now just to avoid controversy and use
surface=ground when the surface has not been constructed from fill— people
simply drive on a road that's been cut through an area.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 6:22 AM, James Umbanhowar 
wrote:

> I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
> they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
> limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
> smooth surface after several months of traffic.
>
> I've used surface=gravel; gravel=crushed_limestone in my area.  I don't
> get the gravel being 4-8 cm, that seems a wikierror.
>
> James
>
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:19 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
> > I recently bought a gravel bicycle to ride on the many gravel roads
> > in
> > Kansas. Like this one:
> > https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=nYO4JI46L0SWzNAQlLT4kA=phot
> > o
> >
> > First question: What would you call this road? Obviously I am calling
> > it a "gravel road" but a couple of people have said they would call
> > it
> > a "dirt road" so I'm curious if there are any other common terms to
> > describe this type of road in different regions of the US.
> >
> > Second question: How would you tag this road? There is a
> > surface=gravel tag that is in pretty common usage in Kansas and
> > neighboring states. However looking at the wiki page for the surface
> > tag[1], this is not wiki-correct. According to that page
> > surface=gravel is to be used for large rocks (4-8cm) that are laid
> > down loosely like those typically used as ballast on railroad beds. I
> > believe The Mapillary picture I linked to would be considered
> > surface=compacted according to the wiki because the rocks are much
> > smaller and the surface is stabilized with a binding agent. There is
> > a
> > big difference between the two when it comes to bicycle riding.
> > Railroad ballast is bone jarring and flat tire inducing whereas
> > gravel
> > roads are pretty manageable on the right kind of bike.
> >
> > But If you call something a "gravel road" and there is a "gravel"
> > option in the editor preset for the surface tag, people are going to
> > choose the gravel option and not look for "compacted" since that is
> > not a common term here. I assume it is a more common term in the UK
> > and that is why it is used in OSM.
> >
> > And lastly there are trails that are surfaced with a similar material
> > but crushed to a smaller size like here:
> > https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=iQNqP-dfQ-Rm6AD9REMsgQ=phot
> > o
> >
> > I'm trying to decide if that is better as surface=compacted or
> > surface=fine_gravel although fine_gravel seems to be a slightly
> > different process from what I see on the wiki.
> >
> > Maybe this should be directed at the tagging list but I thought I
> > would get thoughts from the US community since we seem to be the ones
> > using the tag incorrectly (according to the wiki)
> >
> > [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
> >
> > Toby
> >
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Jack Burke]

Keep in mind that OSM apparently uses "compacted" to refer to macadamized 
roads, which is a specific process for building roads. 

Maybe they wiki should be updated to say that roads with loose pieces of gravel 
scattered around but a hardened underlying surface is compacted, not gravel?

-jack

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On April 19, 2018 9:22:15 AM EDT, James Umbanhowar  wrote:
>I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
>they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
>limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
>smooth surface after several months of traffic.
>
>I've used surface=gravel; gravel=crushed_limestone in my area.  I don't
>get the gravel being 4-8 cm, that seems a wikierror.
>
>James
>
>On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:19 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
>> I recently bought a gravel bicycle to ride on the many gravel roads
>> in
>> Kansas. Like this one:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=nYO4JI46L0SWzNAQlLT4kA=phot
>> o
>> 
>> First question: What would you call this road? Obviously I am calling
>> it a "gravel road" but a couple of people have said they would call
>> it
>> a "dirt road" so I'm curious if there are any other common terms to
>> describe this type of road in different regions of the US.
>> 
>> Second question: How would you tag this road? There is a
>> surface=gravel tag that is in pretty common usage in Kansas and
>> neighboring states. However looking at the wiki page for the surface
>> tag[1], this is not wiki-correct. According to that page
>> surface=gravel is to be used for large rocks (4-8cm) that are laid
>> down loosely like those typically used as ballast on railroad beds. I
>> believe The Mapillary picture I linked to would be considered
>> surface=compacted according to the wiki because the rocks are much
>> smaller and the surface is stabilized with a binding agent. There is
>> a
>> big difference between the two when it comes to bicycle riding.
>> Railroad ballast is bone jarring and flat tire inducing whereas
>> gravel
>> roads are pretty manageable on the right kind of bike.
>> 
>> But If you call something a "gravel road" and there is a "gravel"
>> option in the editor preset for the surface tag, people are going to
>> choose the gravel option and not look for "compacted" since that is
>> not a common term here. I assume it is a more common term in the UK
>> and that is why it is used in OSM.
>> 
>> And lastly there are trails that are surfaced with a similar material
>> but crushed to a smaller size like here:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=iQNqP-dfQ-Rm6AD9REMsgQ=phot
>> o
>> 
>> I'm trying to decide if that is better as surface=compacted or
>> surface=fine_gravel although fine_gravel seems to be a slightly
>> different process from what I see on the wiki.
>> 
>> Maybe this should be directed at the tagging list but I thought I
>> would get thoughts from the US community since we seem to be the ones
>> using the tag incorrectly (according to the wiki)
>> 
>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
>> 
>> Toby
>> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[James Umbanhowar]

I grew up in an area with these kinds of roads and I don't think
they're technically compacted.  The gravel, which is crushed
limerstone, is laid down and due to its chemical properties creates a
smooth surface after several months of traffic.

I've used surface=gravel; gravel=crushed_limestone in my area.  I don't
get the gravel being 4-8 cm, that seems a wikierror.

James

On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:19 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
> I recently bought a gravel bicycle to ride on the many gravel roads
> in
> Kansas. Like this one:
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=nYO4JI46L0SWzNAQlLT4kA=phot
> o
> 
> First question: What would you call this road? Obviously I am calling
> it a "gravel road" but a couple of people have said they would call
> it
> a "dirt road" so I'm curious if there are any other common terms to
> describe this type of road in different regions of the US.
> 
> Second question: How would you tag this road? There is a
> surface=gravel tag that is in pretty common usage in Kansas and
> neighboring states. However looking at the wiki page for the surface
> tag[1], this is not wiki-correct. According to that page
> surface=gravel is to be used for large rocks (4-8cm) that are laid
> down loosely like those typically used as ballast on railroad beds. I
> believe The Mapillary picture I linked to would be considered
> surface=compacted according to the wiki because the rocks are much
> smaller and the surface is stabilized with a binding agent. There is
> a
> big difference between the two when it comes to bicycle riding.
> Railroad ballast is bone jarring and flat tire inducing whereas
> gravel
> roads are pretty manageable on the right kind of bike.
> 
> But If you call something a "gravel road" and there is a "gravel"
> option in the editor preset for the surface tag, people are going to
> choose the gravel option and not look for "compacted" since that is
> not a common term here. I assume it is a more common term in the UK
> and that is why it is used in OSM.
> 
> And lastly there are trails that are surfaced with a similar material
> but crushed to a smaller size like here:
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=iQNqP-dfQ-Rm6AD9REMsgQ=phot
> o
> 
> I'm trying to decide if that is better as surface=compacted or
> surface=fine_gravel although fine_gravel seems to be a slightly
> different process from what I see on the wiki.
> 
> Maybe this should be directed at the tagging list but I thought I
> would get thoughts from the US community since we seem to be the ones
> using the tag incorrectly (according to the wiki)
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
> 
> Toby
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Gravel roads and surface tags in the US

[Rihards]

On 2018.04.19. 02:36, Jack Burke wrote:
> I've been tagging roads like that as compacted, once I learned more
> about the surfacing tech.

Same here - was tagging roads like that as gravel until I found out it's
compacted.

Editor topic - perhaps editors should be extended to offer both
compacted & gravel for the UI choice of "gravel", with compacted being
default even ?

> -jack
> 
> -- 
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
> 
> On April 18, 2018 6:19:07 PM EDT, Toby Murray  wrote:
> 
> I recently bought a gravel bicycle to ride on the many gravel roads in
> Kansas. Like this one:
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=nYO4JI46L0SWzNAQlLT4kA=photo
> 
> First question: What would you call this road? Obviously I am calling
> it a "gravel road" but a couple of people have said they would call it
> a "dirt road" so I'm curious if there are any other common terms to
> describe this type of road in different regions of the US.
> 
> Second question: How would you tag this road? There is a
> surface=gravel tag that is in pretty common usage in Kansas and
> neighboring states. However looking at the wiki page for the surface
> tag[1], this is not wiki-correct. According to that page
> surface=gravel is to be used for large rocks (4-8cm) that are laid
> down loosely like those typically used as ballast on railroad beds. I
> believe The Mapillary picture I linked to would be considered
> surface=compacted according to the wiki because the rocks are much
> smaller and the surface is stabilized with a binding agent. There is a
> big difference between the two when it comes to bicycle riding.
> Railroad ballast is bone jarring and flat tire inducing whereas gravel
> roads are pretty manageable on the right kind of bike.
> 
> But If you call something a "gravel road" and there is a "gravel"
> option in the editor preset for the surface tag, people are going to
> choose the gravel option and not look for "compacted" since that is
> not a common term here. I assume it is a more common term in the UK
> and that is why it is used in OSM.
> 
> And lastly there are trails that are surfaced with a similar material
> but crushed to a smaller size like here:
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=iQNqP-dfQ-Rm6AD9REMsgQ=photo
> 
> I'm trying to decide if that is better as surface=compacted or
> surface=fine_gravel although fine_gravel seems to be a slightly
> different process from what I see on the wiki.
> 
> Maybe this should be directed at the tagging list but I thought I
> would get thoughts from the US community since we seem to be the ones
> using the tag incorrectly (according to the wiki)
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
> 
> Toby
-- 
 Rihards

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