Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[stevea]

I, too, have noticed this "apparent deprecation" of the importance of our wiki 
and would like to see it remedied.  Not only do I find the wiki drop-dead easy 
to search and "read up on" how to do something in OSM (as in "this is how we 
already do it" or "this is how far along we are on a particular (local, 
specific) endeavor or sub-project") — encyclopedia / wikipedia style — but 
there is a comparatively low bar of entry should even a novice user wish to 
change / update a wiki that is already substantially written, but can benefit 
by a casual user coming along and discovering it needs only a slight update to 
be ship-shape.  In my opinion, this makes our wiki one of the most powerful 
reference and communication vehicles in the project, as even for novices, it is 
not only highly accessible and helpful, but encourages simple (or yes, even 
complex) contributions which strengthen it.

Let's continue to "market" our wiki (to newer users, especially) as the very 
potent resource that it is.  If this means improvement in how we point (newer) 
users to our wiki, let's do that.  If there are other, more noticeable or 
visible places where we can do this but now do not, let's fix that so we do.

SteveA
California

> On Feb 22, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:49 PM Wayne Emerson, Jr. via talk 
>  wrote:
> The OSM World Discord server usually has people on that can answer basic 
> questionshttps://discord.gg/q6HnfNZ
> Doing the iD tutorial teaches the basics and is easy to learn. One can learn 
> the basic tags by using the presets found using the iD search box. Tagging a 
> basic individual object can be learned from the wiki.
> 
> The iD tutorial is very helpful for new mappers. Completing the tutorial only 
> takes a few minutes. Unfortunately only a small percentage start or complete 
> the tutorial.  Since the first of the year of the nearly 6800 new mappers 
> only 29% complete the entire tutorial. While it doesn't get at complex edits, 
> it does cover what I see a typical new mapper contribute. 
> 
> However some tagging situations are more complex, like how to tag a school 
> (What tags go on schoolyard vs. the building) or bus routes, or admin 
> boundaries, etc. There are some nice guides buried in the wiki but it can be 
> difficult for a beginner to wade through all the component tags before 
> finding a guide to the whole. This can be discouraging to a new mapper. Even 
> more so when you do find a guide, for example, on tagging bus routes but then 
> not being sure if its the new scheme or the old scheme and so many 
> contradictions can make people give up.
> 
> I agree with this assessment. Just yesterday a new mapper added a new park, 
> unfortunately one already existed. Because it was a complex multipolygon I'm 
> sure they did realize it. 
> 
>  
> 
> Wiki cleanup & a front page link to an index of authoritative & current 
> tagging guides for complex entities would be nice. Maybe call it "Special 
> Mapping Guides"
> 
> Creating nicer guides would be nice, but my experience, most new mappers 
> don't start looking at the wiki until much later. I do point to wiki articles 
> when giving feedback with the hope they will read it.
> 
> One of the other problems facing new and occasional mappers is the complexity 
> and density of many of the cities.  When I started in the US I was able to 
> add glaciers and parks with a clean palette to work from. Today when mapping 
> we have unlike features joined, complex relations, streets with lane counts 
> and turn lanes, streams, culverts, sidewalks, buildings, etc.. It's much 
> harder to for a new or occasional mapper to contribute without problems. 
> 
> Some might suggest we force new mappers to go through the tutorial. I don't 
> think that's the answer. It would turn too many people off. The only solution 
> I can suggest is to make our editing software more robust with better hints 
> and presets. For this I applaud iD for the many improvements that have been 
> made over the years. 
> 
> Best,
> Clifford
> -- 
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Feb 2020, at 23:25, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> Creating nicer guides would be nice, but my experience, most new mappers 
> don't start looking at the wiki until much later. I do point to wiki articles 
> when giving feedback with the hope they will read it.


When I started mapping, the wiki was prominently linked from the map page and 
the wiki start page led to the various sections for beginners as well as more 
detailed documentation of map features, for developers etc.

Some years later the wiki link got hidden behind the help link, where it is the 
very last point after links to the forum, mailings lists (!), irc, help forum, 
switch2osm, „for organisations“, etc.
It might look for a newbie as if the wiki is the least interesting source for 
someone looking for help...

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 12:49 PM Wayne Emerson, Jr. via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> The OSM World Discord server usually has people on that can answer basic
> questions https://discord.gg/q6HnfNZ
> Doing the iD tutorial teaches the basics and is easy to learn. One can
> learn the basic tags by using the presets found using the iD search box.
> Tagging a basic individual object can be learned from the wiki.
>

The iD tutorial is very helpful for new mappers. Completing the tutorial
only takes a few minutes. Unfortunately only a small percentage start or
complete the tutorial.  Since the first of the year of the nearly 6800 new
mappers only 29% complete the entire tutorial. While it doesn't get at
complex edits, it does cover what I see a typical new mapper contribute.

>
> However some tagging situations are more complex, like how to tag a school
> (What tags go on schoolyard vs. the building) or bus routes, or admin
> boundaries, etc. There are some nice guides buried in the wiki but it can
> be difficult for a beginner to wade through all the component tags before
> finding a guide to the whole. This can be discouraging to a new mapper.
> Even more so when you do find a guide, for example, on tagging bus routes
> but then not being sure if its the new scheme or the old scheme and so many
> contradictions can make people give up.
>

I agree with this assessment. Just yesterday a new mapper added a new park,
unfortunately one already existed. Because it was a complex multipolygon
I'm sure they did realize it.



>
> Wiki cleanup & a front page link to an index of authoritative & current
> tagging guides for complex entities would be nice. Maybe call it "Special
> Mapping Guides"
>

Creating nicer guides would be nice, but my experience, most new mappers
don't start looking at the wiki until much later. I do point to wiki
articles when giving feedback with the hope they will read it.

One of the other problems facing new and occasional mappers is the
complexity and density of many of the cities.  When I started in the US I
was able to add glaciers and parks with a clean palette to work from. Today
when mapping we have unlike features joined, complex relations, streets
with lane counts and turn lanes, streams, culverts, sidewalks, buildings,
etc.. It's much harder to for a new or occasional mapper to contribute
without problems.

Some might suggest we force new mappers to go through the tutorial. I don't
think that's the answer. It would turn too many people off. The only
solution I can suggest is to make our editing software more robust with
better hints and presets. For this I applaud iD for the many improvements
that have been made over the years.

Best,
Clifford
-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Wayne Emerson, Jr. via talk]

The OSM World Discord server usually has people on that can answer basic 
questions https://discord.gg/q6HnfNZ
Doing the iD tutorial teaches the basics and is easy to learn. One can 
learn the basic tags by using the presets found using the iD search box. 
Tagging a basic individual object can be learned from the wiki.


However some tagging situations are more complex, like how to tag a 
school (What tags go on schoolyard vs. the building) or bus routes, or 
admin boundaries, etc. There are some nice guides buried in the wiki but 
it can be difficult for a beginner to wade through all the component 
tags before finding a guide to the whole. This can be discouraging to a 
new mapper. Even more so when you do find a guide, for example, on 
tagging bus routes but then not being sure if its the new scheme or the 
old scheme and so many contradictions can make people give up.


Wiki cleanup & a front page link to an index of authoritative & current 
tagging guides for complex entities would be nice. Maybe call it 
"Special Mapping Guides"


On 2/22/2020 5:25 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:




22 Feb 2020, 10:37 by si...@poole.ch:

From a pedagogic point of view I would consider that suboptimal,
no to mention that it would be endless.

I expect that endless part may be
solved by generating it automatically
from iD and Vespucci presets.

For anybody that is going to contribute more than once (and iDs
tutorial does a good job of guiding through that), we want them to
learn the basic concepts of OSM and enable them to extend that to
new situations.

It is intended to be tutorial for the first edit.

I remember that I was quite confused
during making first edits.

That is different from a guided contribution model, say for
example with https://osmybiz.osm.ch/
 which is preferable
for people that don't want to contribute to OSM in general but
just want to add and maintain a specific object.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

22 Feb 2020, 10:37 by si...@poole.ch:

>
> From a pedagogic point of view I would consider that suboptimal,  no to 
> mention that it would be endless.
>
>
I expect that endless part may be
solved by generating it automatically
from iD and Vespucci presets.
>
> For anybody that is going to contribute more than once (and iDs  tutorial 
> does a good job of guiding through that), we want them to  learn the 
> basic concepts of OSM and enable them to extend that to  new situations.
>
>
It is intended to be tutorial for the first edit.

I remember that I was quite confused 
during making first edits.
>
> That is different from a guided contribution model, say for  example with 
> > https://osmybiz.osm.ch/ >  
> which is preferable for people that don't want to contribute to  OSM in 
> general but just want to add and maintain a specific  object.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Simon Poole]

From a pedagogic point of view I would consider that suboptimal, no to
mention that it would be endless.

For anybody that is going to contribute more than once (and iDs tutorial
does a good job of guiding through that), we want them to learn the
basic concepts of OSM and enable them to extend that to new situations.

That is different from a guided contribution model, say for example with
https://osmybiz.osm.ch/ 
which is preferable for people that don't want to contribute to OSM in
general but just want to add and maintain a specific object.

Simon

Am 22.02.2020 um 05:37 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk:
> Is there some automatically generated website
> describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?
>
> Something directed to a potential mappers,
> explicitly describing every single smallest step,
> for every single mappable feature.
>
> I ask as I had again a friend asking me
> "how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".
>
> And it seems to me that automatically generated
> set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Yves]

I tried to do that from a corner case: begginer guide for cross-country skier:
http://www.opensnowmap.org/iframes/how-to-fra.html
It reminds me I still have to translate it in English.
This is not exactly what you are looking for, but it can give some ideas.
Yves 

Le 22 février 2020 09:23:35 GMT+01:00, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
 a écrit :
>
>
>
>22 Feb 2020, 08:09 by r...@technomancy.org:
>
>> Isn't this the job of the editing software (incl it's presets)? If
>there's a search box and the user can type in (eg) "path" and draw the
>path, then that's how you teach newbies? 
>>
>Yes, but complete newbie needs to
>be taught this steps.
>
>It is not obvious.
>
>And for mobile editing one needs 
>instructions for Vespucci that is a bit
>less obvious.
>>
>> Has this user tried to use iD (the best new user friendly editor
>today) to do this? Does that do the job? If not, I'm sure everyone,
>incl id devs, would like to know.  
>>
>No, he was unaware that it can be done this way and that it is
>relatively simple.
>(I hope that it is relatively simple)
>>
>> On 22 February 2020 05:37:13 CET, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there some automatically generated website 
>>> describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?
>>>
>>> Something directed to a potential mappers, 
>>> explicitly describing every single smallest step,
>>> for every single mappable feature.
>>>
>>> I ask as I had again a friend asking me 
>>> "how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".
>>>
>>> And it seems to me that automatically generated 
>>> set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

22 Feb 2020, 08:09 by r...@technomancy.org:

> Isn't this the job of the editing software (incl it's presets)? If there's a 
> search box and the user can type in (eg) "path" and draw the path, then 
> that's how you teach newbies? 
>
Yes, but complete newbie needs to
be taught this steps.

It is not obvious.

And for mobile editing one needs 
instructions for Vespucci that is a bit
less obvious.
>
> Has this user tried to use iD (the best new user friendly editor today) to do 
> this? Does that do the job? If not, I'm sure everyone, incl id devs, would 
> like to know.  
>
No, he was unaware that it can be done this way and that it is relatively 
simple.
(I hope that it is relatively simple)
>
> On 22 February 2020 05:37:13 CET, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>  wrote:
>
>> Is there some automatically generated website 
>> describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?
>>
>> Something directed to a potential mappers, 
>> explicitly describing every single smallest step,
>> for every single mappable feature.
>>
>> I ask as I had again a friend asking me 
>> "how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".
>>
>> And it seems to me that automatically generated 
>> set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.
>>
>
> -- 
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Rory McCann]

Isn't this the job of the editing software (incl it's presets)? If there's a 
search box and the user can type in (eg) "path" and draw the path, then that's 
how you teach newbies? 

Has this user tried to use iD (the best new user friendly editor today) to do 
this? Does that do the job? If not, I'm sure everyone, incl id devs, would like 
to know.  

On 22 February 2020 05:37:13 CET, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
 wrote:
>Is there some automatically generated website 
>describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?
>
>Something directed to a potential mappers, 
>explicitly describing every single smallest step,
>for every single mappable feature.
>
>I ask as I had again a friend asking me 
>"how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".
>
>And it seems to me that automatically generated 
>set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Warin]

On 22/2/20 3:37 pm, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

Is there some automatically generated website
describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?

Something directed to a potential mappers,
explicitly describing every single smallest step,
for every single mappable feature.

I ask as I had again a friend asking me
"how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".

And it seems to me that automatically generated
set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.




The 'painful' detail will depend on which editor is selected.

I started with JOSM and have not bothered to learn anything else, thus 
skipping some intermediate steps.



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[OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Is there some automatically generated website 
describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?

Something directed to a potential mappers, 
explicitly describing every single smallest step,
for every single mappable feature.

I ask as I had again a friend asking me 
"how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".

And it seems to me that automatically generated 
set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.___
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