Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It is ok to do it this also with other data
users who refuse to attribute OSM properly?

This mail finally mobilised me to complain 
to Mapbox about their practise of putting
large Mapbox logo and hiding any mention 
of OpenStreetMap behind click to view button.

But I am planning next action(s) as I do not
believe that single complaint will suffice
to stop this misattribution.

22 Dec 2018, 22:55 by si...@poole.ch :

> Please feel
> free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
> you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
> permitting, take action.
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 27. Dec 2018, at 14:04, Simon Poole  wrote:

>> Am 26.12.2018 um 11:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>> 
>> It seems more straightforward to fix this upstream rather than asking a 
>> myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is with one of our most 
>> prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be discussed on the board?
>> 
> This is not the way (as you know) the ODbL, or for what its worth any of
> the CC licences, work, every distributor of an OSM derived work is
> licensed directly from the OSMF and in the case of non-sub-licensable
> content with similar licences the respective licensors.


I didn’t mean to call for immediate legal action. If mapbox distributes a 
framework that doesn’t attribute in the default configuration to OSM as we 
prefer to, it seems it would be efficient to convince them rather than their 
hundreds of clients, even if they might not have legal liability from die Zeit 
showing an incorrect attribution (although you could argue, as they provide 
templates which are infringing the attribution requirements as defined and 
interpreted by ODbL and LWG, that they might be held liable as well (by their 
clients)).
As they use the same css attribution styles for their own maps as well, eg
https://api.mapbox.com/styles/v1/mapbox/streets-v9.html?title=true_token=pk.eyJ1IjoibWFwYm94IiwiYSI6ImNpejY4M29iazA2Z2gycXA4N2pmbDZmangifQ.-g_vE53SD2WrJ6tFX7QHmA#1.07/54.1/7.7

it directly concerns them anyway.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Simon Poole]

Am 26.12.2018 um 11:46 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:

> It seems more straightforward to fix this upstream rather than asking a 
> myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is with one of our most 
> prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be discussed on the board?
>
This is not the way (as you know) the ODbL, or for what its worth any of
the CC licences, work, every distributor of an OSM derived work is
licensed directly from the OSMF and in the case of non-sub-licensable
content with similar licences the respective licensors.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Dec 2018, at 22:55, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> But just as clear we (as in the LWG) do not engage actively in
> enforcement except when community level activities do not lead to the
> required result (obviously anything else would not scale). Please feel
> free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
> you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
> permitting, take action.


In this case we’re not discussing a single user (die Zeit) but the general 
default system of attribution from a third party service, like here those based 
on Mapbox. It is the mapbox default to require, on small screens, a click to 
see the osm attribution, but not for the mapbox trademark and logo, which are 
displayed in all circumstances. It seems more straightforward to fix this 
upstream rather than asking a myriad of downstream users to patch it. As it is 
with one of our most prominent users, maybe this specific issue should be 
discussed on the board?


Cheers, Martin 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Simon Poole]

On 22.12.2018 12:44, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> ..
> Yes, but second rate attribution is such a clear cut case that it could 
> and should be covered. 

..

I'm not quite sure what your point is, we've made it clear in the past
that click to show attribution is not acceptable outside of a situation
in which there is very little screen real estate, which essentially now
days is likely "never".

But just as clear we (as in the LWG) do not engage actively in
enforcement except when community level activities do not lead to the
required result (obviously anything else would not scale). Please feel
free to engage Die Zeit and if you do not get a satisfactory response
you can submit a properly documented case to the LWG and we will, time
permitting, take action.

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 22 December 2018, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> But even with new material it needs to be clear that the purpose of
> the guidelines is to outline "safe" ways to provide appropriate
> attribution and not to be an exhaustive list of all ways to so so.

Yes, but second rate attribution is such a clear cut case that it could 
and should be covered.  In particular since the wording of the OdbL is 
quite clear in attribution being not a technical formality but a matter 
of actual de facto user experience.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Simon Poole]

Just to explain what we are planning: the current attribution guidance
on the OSMF website and on openstreetmap.org mostly goes back to before
2012 and there have only been some tweaks to the texts since them.

This on the one hand makes it difficult to find statements that we have
made on aspects of attribution that have cropped up since then (for
example the icon click to show attribution) and on the other hand it
doesn't take the myriad of use cases and technology changes that have
cropped up since then (just think about screen sizes for mobile devices)
in to account.

But even with new material it needs to be clear that the purpose of the
guidelines is to outline "safe" ways to provide appropriate attribution
and not to be an exhaustive list of all ways to so so.

Simon


On 19.12.2018 12:08, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> ...
> Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines - 
> please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:
>
> https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Naveen Francis]

Some discussion are happening in OSM Asia telegram group



@OpenStreetMapAsia


On Thu 20 Dec, 2018, 8:11 PM Imre Samu 
> Techcrunch: "Grab is messing up the world’s largest mapping community’s
> data in Southeast Asia
> Remote teams incorrectly overwrote data developed by volunteer mappers in
> Thailand"
> https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/19/grab-maps-osm-thailand-southeast-asia/
>
> Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18723138  ( Please
> somebody add our community view )
>
>
>
> Christoph Hormann  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 19.,
> Sze, 12:10):
>
>> On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> >
>> > bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 1 Eur bezahlt?
>> > Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
>> > durcheinander?
>>
>> I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the
>> FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own
>> accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.
>>
>> And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF
>> local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)
>>
>> Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
>> please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:
>>
>>
>> https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer
>>
>> --
>> Christoph Hormann
>> http://www.imagico.de/
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Imre Samu]

Techcrunch: "Grab is messing up the world’s largest mapping community’s
data in Southeast Asia
Remote teams incorrectly overwrote data developed by volunteer mappers in
Thailand"
https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/19/grab-maps-osm-thailand-southeast-asia/

Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18723138  ( Please
somebody add our community view )



Christoph Hormann  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec. 19., Sze,
12:10):

> On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 1 Eur bezahlt?
> > Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
> > durcheinander?
>
> I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the
> FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own
> accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.
>
> And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF
> local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)
>
> Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines -
> please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:
>
>
> https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 19 December 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 1 Eur bezahlt?
> Kommt mir unwahrscheinlich vor ;-) Oder bringe ich da was
> durcheinander?

I am on the AB because the FOSSGIS sent me there (and neither i not the 
FOSSGIS paid anything for that).  If i wanted to be there on my own 
accord i would have to pay EUR 10k as well.

And to my knowledge no one ever accused the FOSSGIS or any other OSMF 
local chapter for insufficient attribution. :-)

Glad to hear the LWG is working on clearer attribution guidelines - 
please make sure to clearly condemn second rate attribution like on:

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2016-07/china-hat-keinen-gebietsanspruch-auf-inseln-im-suedchinesischen-meer

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 19. Dez. 2018 um 11:28 Uhr schrieb Simon Poole :

> Please get your quotes correct.




mea culpa, they must have changed something in the UI :o
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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Simon Poole]

Please get your quotes correct.


On 19.12.2018 10:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Hallo Christoph,
>
> bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 1 Eur bezahlt? Kommt mir 
> unwahrscheinlich vor ;-)
> Oder bringe ich da was durcheinander?
>
> Gruß, Martin 
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 19. Dec 2018, at 10:42, Simon Poole  wrote:
>>
>> A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership 
>> which costs EUR 1 per year.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Hallo Christoph,

bist Du nicht im advisory board? Hast Du mind 1 Eur bezahlt? Kommt mir 
unwahrscheinlich vor ;-)
Oder bringe ich da was durcheinander?

Gruß, Martin 

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2018, at 10:42, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership 
> which costs EUR 1 per year.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Simon Poole]

The LWG has added a work item for 2019 to update the guidance on
attribution. The major part of the existing texts were written in the
ramp up to the licence change in 2012 and are now over 6 years old. 

Lots of things have changed massively since then, be it the scope of OSM
usage, to what kind of devices are used by the majority of users and it
is obviously high time for some updates. And we will include guidance
that we've previously given, but which may not be really documented
anywhere. For example that in many circumstances "click to hide" is
acceptable, but not "click to show".

So that there is no confusion about this, any such guidance will never
be an exhaustive list of all what is compliant with the requirement of
our licence (for Produced Works), just a list of what we have deemed to
fulfill the terms and can safely be used:

However, if you Publicly Use a Produced Work, You must include a notice
associated with

the Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any Person that
uses,views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the
Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the Database,
Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database,
and that it is available under this License.

Simon

On 19.12.2018 09:42, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 19.12.2018 09:33, Ervin Malicdem wrote:
>> I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY
>> board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that
>> history so soon.
> A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership
> which costs EUR 1 per year.
>
> I agree that we should hold our corporate members to even higher
> standards than the average company out there, both in terms of
> attribution (Grab's not the only corporate member taking a cavalier
> attitude to that) and also in terms of how they are contributing data to
> OSM, if any.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 19.12.2018 09:33, Ervin Malicdem wrote:
> I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY
> board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that
> history so soon.

A seat on the advisory board requires at least a "gold" level membership
which costs EUR 1 per year.

I agree that we should hold our corporate members to even higher
standards than the average company out there, both in terms of
attribution (Grab's not the only corporate member taking a cavalier
attitude to that) and also in terms of how they are contributing data to
OSM, if any.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Ervin Malicdem]

They have been known NOT to attribute OSM since over 4 years back. [1]
Unfortunately, our community leaders back then is more assertive in
other ways than those who potentially violate the attribution guidelines.

They were notified but instead of replying back for a resolution, they
ceased using the map and got back to Google Maps.

It is a good thing though that they are now considering going back to the
community by being a corporate member to the foundation. Probably they have
already realized the importance of crowd source and open data to their
business model.

I just hoped before they were given a seat as part of OSMF's ADVISORY
board, these issues had been handled. 500 euros seems to clear all that
history so soon.

But still, the issue remains that when the community does not care about
these violations, then we are prone to such instance over and over. Thanks
for seeing that this get to be known Mishari!

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ph/2014-July/005207.html


Ervin M.
*Schadow1 Expeditions* - A Filipino must not be a stranger to his own
motherland.
http://www.s1expeditions.com


On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 1:30 PM Eugene Alvin Villar 
wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, Mishari Muqbil 
> wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> > Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is
> using data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route
> previews in their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now
> if only they would attribute us.
> >
> > https://www.mishari.net/en/2018/12/grab-osm-data/
>
> Hi Mishari,
>
> I won't comment on whether the attribution to OSM is enough or not. That
> is something that is for the OSMF Licencing Working Group to decide. Please
> feel free to join the legal-talk mailing list[1] if you want to discuss the
> lack of attribution further. But it is already known that Grab uses and
> contributes to OSM.
>
> Grab is a Gold Corporate Member of the OSM Foundation and they have a
> representative on the Advisory Board by virtue of their Gold corporate
> membership:
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board
>
> Grab has a dedicated mapping team helping to map and improve the road
> network in urban areas where they operate. Their mapping process is
> documented on the OSM Wiki and they keep track of their progress on GitHub:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab
> https://github.com/GRABOSM/Grab-Data
>
> And there has even been a recent article on Quartz on why Grab is doing
> this:
>
> https://qz.com/1481849/grab-southeast-asias-biggest-ride-hailing-firm-is-on-a-mapping-spree/
>
> [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>
> ~Eugene
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Grab using OSM Data for route preview

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, Mishari Muqbil  wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> Good news overall for the project I suppose, Grab (SE Asia's Uber) is
using data from OSM to do fare calculations as well as display route
previews in their app, making it a high profile use case for OSM Data. Now
if only they would attribute us.
>
> https://www.mishari.net/en/2018/12/grab-osm-data/

Hi Mishari,

I won't comment on whether the attribution to OSM is enough or not. That is
something that is for the OSMF Licencing Working Group to decide. Please
feel free to join the legal-talk mailing list[1] if you want to discuss the
lack of attribution further. But it is already known that Grab uses and
contributes to OSM.

Grab is a Gold Corporate Member of the OSM Foundation and they have a
representative on the Advisory Board by virtue of their Gold corporate
membership:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Corporate_Members
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board

Grab has a dedicated mapping team helping to map and improve the road
network in urban areas where they operate. Their mapping process is
documented on the OSM Wiki and they keep track of their progress on GitHub:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab
https://github.com/GRABOSM/Grab-Data

And there has even been a recent article on Quartz on why Grab is doing
this:
https://qz.com/1481849/grab-southeast-asias-biggest-ride-hailing-firm-is-on-a-mapping-spree/

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

~Eugene
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