Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Celine Jacquin]

  3. srsly?! | Re:  I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up
  office hours for questions (Rory McCann)

Good afternoon everybody,

I pay attention only occasionally to the talk-list, but this message
resonated in Geochicas and made me (us) feel attacked, from the tone and
expressions chosen by Frederik Ramm. Regardless of the point you try to
defend, the tone and care with the expression is a basic principle of
coexistence in a community of which permanence and renewal are so
important, as in Openstreetmap. And it sounds completely incredible to me
to read this, when so few weeks ago many were wondering (honestly?) how to
increase the diversity of participation on the board (and we have the same
concern for Openstreetmap in general). As Geochicas, we have participated
on Twitter in this collective reflection, where it seemed to me that few
people really wanted to understand the reasons why few women participate
and apply for activities such as being a board member. As if it will only
be about inviting and convincing. We are precisely in the presence of an
expression of the problem: a frankly demotivating tone to enter this type
of dialogue. And I find it especially serious that this occurs in a circle
of (ex, present and future) members of the board.

There is a code of conduct in OSM, it is surprising to remember it by now.
When looking for it in other no less serious circumstances, I could see
that it exists in a non-definitive version, which lets me understand that
it has not been a central work issue in OSM.

Given that, and the Geochicas survey demonstrates it, coexistence behaviors
in all OSM channels are a central vector of inclusion or exclusion, I
invite you, board members, to consider the Code of Conduct as a priority
OSM project : its promotion, its participatory consolidation, its
socialization, and its careful respect especially for those who are
spokespersons.

Thanks everyone
Mapeadora


El dom, 6 de dic. de 2020 a la(s) 06:21, 
escribió:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re:  Please review "Community attribution advice” wiki page
>   (Joseph Eisenberg)
>2. weeklyOSM #541 2020-11-24-2020-11-30 (weeklyteam)
>3. srsly?! | Re:  I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up
>   office hours for questions (Rory McCann)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 10:31:32 -0800
> From: Joseph Eisenberg 
> To: Mateusz Konieczny 
> Cc: osm 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk]  Please review "Community attribution
> advice” wiki page
> Message-ID:
>  ierfn09pbg1qu0cyxkt+e+c82lfxj...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The text of the first section previously ended with this sentence:
>
> "To what extent you might practically get away with lesser attribution -
> either legally or socially - is outside the scope of this document."
>
> Probably such a sentence is acceptable in some cultures, but it sounds odd
> in the Anglo-American legal context so I removed it.
>
> However, perhaps there is a more polite way to say the same sort of thing,
> without seeming to invite "getting away with it?"
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 12:36 AM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> > One thing that is missing to me is explicit mention that it is not
> > overriding ODBL or related laws and is not adding any legal
> > requirements.
> >
> > If someone follows ODBL license or is in situation where following
> license
> > is not needed for some reason, they can legally do this.
> >
> > Maybe also mention that it is may be recommending more attribution than
> > bare minimum that is required by ODBL, so it is a safe solution that
> should
> > be also fine for any typical[1] project that is not hostile to OSM?
> >
> > [1] "typical" - especially for very small objects things gets trickier,
> > if you are making some special purpose map (tactile map for blind)
> > then attribution also needs to be adapted, if map is going to be used
> > in place where English is not understood in general you will definitely
> > need to translate attribution etc etc.
> >
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Draft_Attribution_Guideline claim
> > that smartphone has not enough space for attribution is clearly untrue.
> > But if you show OSM map on screen of size 1cm x 1 cm or similarly tiny
> > physical object then alternative attribution methods - that still comply
> > with
> > ODBL - 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

it occurs to me that I should have provided more context to this message.

I wrote:

On 12/3/20 00:44, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected
> he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab
> our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would

The quote I have been using is from a tape recording of Donald Trump,
the outgoing president of the United States of America. The full quote
goes like this:

"And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab
'em by the pussy. You can do anything."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_Access_Hollywood_tape)

It was recorded and became public before he became president, but
apparently not enough people found it bad enough, or they thought that
it was just "locker room talk" and not to be taken seriously.

Obviously, "grabbing people by the pussy" is a loathsome thing to do,
and even Trump in this quote is aware of that, because he chooses it as
an example of something that you can do "when you're a star".

Facebook undoubtedly is "a star" on the tech circuit, and they get away
with lots of things that are loathsome. Exactly a year ago today, I have
compiled a small list of these loathsome things here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck/diary/391480 (there's also a
couple of agreeing and disagreeing comments below the post; I'd like to
particularly direct your attention to the agreeing comment by Nancy
Pelosi). More things have happened in the last 12 months of course.

Therefore, the very least I would expect of a board candidate who is
employed by Facebook is to clearly separate their OSMF candidacy from
their employment. I don't see that coming from Mike. I feel that he is
clearly riding the "I am a star" ticket here - "I can do anything".

I have been called out as using sexist language here; for me, it looked
like I was using very well-known political quote that clearly expressed
the concept of "person believes they can get away with doing loathsome
things because they are a star, and they even get elected".

My statement was not intended to trivialize sexual harassment (and I
would certainly not have been one of the 60+ million Americans who
thought that "this was just locker room talk" and waved Trump through in
2016 had I been an American citizen). But my statement needed something
loathsome to work. Whatever other wording I could have chosen - like:
"get away with murder" - could have been interpreted as trivializing
whichever loathsome thing I would have used; so I'm at a loss here.

(Just to be clear, I have not accused Mike of any form of sexual
harassment, just as I don't accuse someone of murder when I say that
they think they can get away with murder.)

Those of you who think that my comments were divisive, or lacked
politeness, I'm sorry but I cannot accommodate you, I think that in a
situation like this clear and strong words are required to condemn
loathsome activities by a company, or a lack of distancing by that
company's employee.

But those of you who feel that by quoting Trump as a bad example and
painting Mike as walking in those "when you're a star you can do
anything" footsteps I have trivialized sexual harassment or somehow made
sexual harassment more likely or denigrated women or made it less likely
for them to want to join the OSMF board - I'm sorry, I apologize, it
wasn't my intention.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[ndrw6]

Since you asked, I am a company employee myself and I fully support Michal in 
following his company's official position. We are not talking about a matter 
that would warrant whistleblowing, we disagree on an interpretation of a 
license term we all agree is not very specific. All interpretations are 
arbitrary, to know which one of them is (legally) right we would have to take 
Facebook to court.

I agree with most of you that unless Facebook changes their position to 
something much more proactive and aligned with the spirit of the project, no 
one from the company should be allowed on the OSMF board. If, however, Michal 
had managed to convince the company to do just that, it would make him, as a 
Facebook employee, a very strong candidate.

Conversely, if Michal had left his job to avoid a conflict of interest, he 
would obviously qualify but he wouldn't bring nearly as much value to OSMF.

-ndrw6


On 4 December 2020 13:27:58 GMT, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
>Danke, dass Du dich hier noch mal ganz eindeutig für jegliche
>Verantwortungs-Position in OpenStreetMap disqualifizierst.
>
>Zum Verständnis:  Zunächst fällt Michal zum Thema Attribution nichts
>anderes ein, als mechanisch-roboterhaft die Formulierungen anderer
>nachzuplappern.  Die Frage nach der eigenen Meinung, ob Facebook bei
>seiner derzeitigen Datennutzung den Anforderungen der Quellennennung
>von OpenStreetMap genügt, wird geflissentlich ignoriert.  Eine eigene
>Überzeugung zum Thema ist offensichtlich nicht vorhanden.
>
>Und dann schmeißt der Kandidat zum Abschluss noch einmal wild mit Dreck
>um sich, wobei er sein Ziel um Meilen verfehlt und stattdessen als
>Kollateralschaden Mateusz und Mikel trifft - stevea hat das bereits
>recht gut und ausführlich erklärt.
>
>Zum Abschluss: Was mich freuen würde ist, wenn hier mal ein paar andere
>Mitarbeiter von Großunternehmen auftauchen würden und deutlich machten,
>dass das keine Haltung ist, die sie unterstützen.  Wer in der
>OSM-Community als Angestellter von Unternehmen im OSM-Umfeld nicht nur
>als Vertreter seines Arbeitgebers, sondern auch als Individuum
>wahrgenommen werden möchte, muss zumindest gelegentlich auch deutlich
>machen, dass er oder sie Überzeugungen und Werte vertreten, die nicht
>gegenüber dem Gehalts-Scheck zurückgestellt werden.  Dies wäre eine
>gute Gelegenheit dafür.
>
>
>
>Non-authoritive English translation from deepl:
>
>Thanks for disqualifying yourself for any position of responsibility in
>OpenStreetMap.
>
>For understanding: First of all, Michal can't think of anything else to
>say about attribution but to mechanically and robotically parrot the
>phrases of others.  The question of his own opinion whether Facebook,
>with its current data usage, meets the requirements of source
>attribution in OpenStreetMap is deliberately ignored.  There is
>obviously no own conviction on the subject.
>
>And then the candidate throws dirt around wildly at the end, missing
>his target by miles and instead hitting Mateusz and Mikel as collateral
>damage - stevea has already explained this quite well and in detail.
>
>At the end: What would make me happy is if a few other employees of
>large companies would show up here and make it clear that this is not
>an attitude they support.  If you want to be perceived in the OSM
>community as an employee of companies in the OSM environment, not only
>as a representative of your employer, but also as an individual, you
>have to make it clear, at least occasionally, that he or she represents
>beliefs and values that are not put on the back burner compared to the
>paycheck.  This would be a good opportunity for this.
>
>-- 
>Christoph Hormann 
>http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Christoph Hormann]

Danke, dass Du dich hier noch mal ganz eindeutig für jegliche 
Verantwortungs-Position in OpenStreetMap disqualifizierst.

Zum Verständnis:  Zunächst fällt Michal zum Thema Attribution nichts anderes 
ein, als mechanisch-roboterhaft die Formulierungen anderer nachzuplappern.  Die 
Frage nach der eigenen Meinung, ob Facebook bei seiner derzeitigen Datennutzung 
den Anforderungen der Quellennennung von OpenStreetMap genügt, wird 
geflissentlich ignoriert.  Eine eigene Überzeugung zum Thema ist offensichtlich 
nicht vorhanden.

Und dann schmeißt der Kandidat zum Abschluss noch einmal wild mit Dreck um 
sich, wobei er sein Ziel um Meilen verfehlt und stattdessen als 
Kollateralschaden Mateusz und Mikel trifft - stevea hat das bereits recht gut 
und ausführlich erklärt.

Zum Abschluss: Was mich freuen würde ist, wenn hier mal ein paar andere 
Mitarbeiter von Großunternehmen auftauchen würden und deutlich machten, dass 
das keine Haltung ist, die sie unterstützen.  Wer in der OSM-Community als 
Angestellter von Unternehmen im OSM-Umfeld nicht nur als Vertreter seines 
Arbeitgebers, sondern auch als Individuum wahrgenommen werden möchte, muss 
zumindest gelegentlich auch deutlich machen, dass er oder sie Überzeugungen und 
Werte vertreten, die nicht gegenüber dem Gehalts-Scheck zurückgestellt werden.  
Dies wäre eine gute Gelegenheit dafür.



Non-authoritive English translation from deepl:

Thanks for disqualifying yourself for any position of responsibility in 
OpenStreetMap.

For understanding: First of all, Michal can't think of anything else to say 
about attribution but to mechanically and robotically parrot the phrases of 
others.  The question of his own opinion whether Facebook, with its current 
data usage, meets the requirements of source attribution in OpenStreetMap is 
deliberately ignored.  There is obviously no own conviction on the subject.

And then the candidate throws dirt around wildly at the end, missing his target 
by miles and instead hitting Mateusz and Mikel as collateral damage - stevea 
has already explained this quite well and in detail.

At the end: What would make me happy is if a few other employees of large 
companies would show up here and make it clear that this is not an attitude 
they support.  If you want to be perceived in the OSM community as an employee 
of companies in the OSM environment, not only as a representative of your 
employer, but also as an individual, you have to make it clear, at least 
occasionally, that he or she represents beliefs and values that are not put on 
the back burner compared to the paycheck.  This would be a good opportunity for 
this.

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 21:50, Michal Migurski  wrote:

> I am speaking here as an individual and not on behalf of Facebook

I'd have no problem with Facebook, or any other commercial
organisation, putting up a candidate for a seat on the board; but I am
having trouble seeing how the above statement can align with the
following:

> FB believes its maps comply...

> My candidacy for the board is explicitly driven by a desire to see commercial
> and organizational use of OSM better represented in the OSMF

> in general it’s much more likely that FB and other companies’ need ... As a
> board member I would work ... to make sure all these overlapping needs
> and desires lead to an OSM that’s stronger together.


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[stevea]

On Dec 3, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> For those using or defending rape metaphors, shame on you.

I take offense (and will not be shamed) at Mike's gross mischaracterization 
(after I took GREAT pains to be painstaking) of my reiteration of Frederik's 
analogy of offensive-to-women behavior by a politician being something we 
should be highly wary and suspect of in our board election.  NEVER was the word 
"rape" used, the highly offensive behavior was called out AS highly offensive 
for the purpose of making an analogy:  "don't be sweet-talked by people who act 
highly offensively while promising not to act highly offensively after they are 
elected."  Moreover, such highly offensive behavior (certainly not rape) was 
NEVER condoned by neither Frederik nor myself.  Wow!

Frederik has no reason to be (a)shamed, he simply used strong language to say 
"be careful of false promises by deceptive people running for high office — you 
shouldn't be surprised when they remain deceptive after being elected."  (Some 
may he say did so with a colorful, perhaps offensive example – but I am certain 
him offering an example of heinous behavior does not mean he "defends rape.")  
Wow!  And, certainly I have no reason to be (a)shamed for doing my utmost to 
clarify that, while pointing out that such behavior of blaming the one who 
calls out such behavior (as, Mike, you seem to be doing to Frederik here, once 
again) is often exactly the same sort of abusive behavior!

If we get this sort of misunderstanding from Mike mischaracterizing what 
happened HERE, well, I leave to this list to imagine what he might do if 
elected.  Mike, your behavior and words — as do mine, as do Frederik's — are 
here on display for anybody to reach their own conclusions.  Yes, you have a 
lot of work in OSM to your credit, but you certainly made a mess of this.  You 
might say Frederik "baited" you (I disagree), but it is the mark of a true 
leader who can understand someone making an analogy versus twisting it 
(repeatedly!) into something that it isn't, "blaming he who calls out bad 
behavior."  Especially when you denigrate him with something he didn't say.

Some might say this is a misunderstanding, though in light of what I wrote 
earlier about blame-shifting, please understand this behavior is often deeply 
entrenched, often not being seen for what it is in the eye of the beholder.

I would love for this list to get back to topics which are much more cool 
(literally and figuratively), as once again, I type my words here to generate 
light, not heat.  While I give Mike one (single) point in his favor for 
recently replying and (at first, generally) sticking to topics, the one-line 
"zinger" he ends with that I quote above rather rudely wipes all the nice 
pieces off the board, subtracting far, far more than his one, single point.  
So, really, shame on you, Mike.

Please, let's keep it civil and honest here.

SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Michal Migurski]

Hi Robert, Christoph, and Mateusz, thanks again for continuing to engage in 
this thread!

I’m going to post just once more since I think we’re reaching the limits of how 
much I can say on behalf of my employer here. I’m participating as a way to 
make myself available for questions and feedback during the board campaign, 
expand on my manifesto and Q, and hopefully make a case for why I’d be a 
helpful addition to the OSMF board.

I want to make sure that I am not mischaracterizing the points of view 
expressed upthread, so I’ll do my best to restate them: attribution is a form 
of remuneration or gratitude to the mappers who build the map, its high visual 
prominence is a sign of respect toward the OSM project, and the desired goal of 
attribution is to inform end-users of the ingredients that make up a basemap 
they’re seeing. This is adapted and condensed from Christoph’s wiki entry, I 
hope I’m conveying the key points correctly. As a board member, these points of 
view will be important for me to understand.

Commenters on this topic have compared OSM attribution to commercial 
attribution for data vendor companies, and suggested using their model of 
requiring equally-prominent logos and links. OSM is bigger and more important 
than this. I can talk more about why if anyone’s interested but the short 
version is that frontline engineers and designers at companies who use OSM data 
create powerful internal pressure to choose OSM in serious “build vs. buy” 
debates. OSM often wins because of its openness and flexibility, and its key to 
growth is awareness and participation from motivated experts. This is a much 
more interesting winning strategy than that employed by commercial vendors.

The OSMF board supports the interests of community members, and I would seek to 
do the same. I’ll improve the board’s decisions with respect to large, 
organized OSM community members poorly represented by past boards or venues 
like this talk@ list. I’d like to see other contributors like humanitarian 
mappers or new geographies on the board as well, and my manifesto calls for 
support of the candidates from Cameroon and the Philippines.

Thanks again to those of you who participating in the conversation.

For those using or defending rape metaphors, shame on you.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

> On Dec 2, 2020, at 1:50 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> 
> Hi Robert, Martin, Alexandre, Jochen, Richard, Tom:
> 
> Thanks for your followups in this conversation! I am speaking here as an 
> individual and not on behalf of Facebook, so I’m going to focus on the areas 
> relevant to board candidacy.
>  
> First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
> awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
> that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can. 
> FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is 
> commonly associated with attribution.
> 
> Successful attribution guidelines published by the OSMF will make it much 
> easier to decide how to interpret the ODbL. As a board member with experience 
> in cartography design & implementation and OSM-relevant companies my 
> involvement will make it more likely that the eventual attribution guidelines 
> work for everyone.
> 
> A few of you have pushed back on my “beyond the ODbL” framing in my prior 
> reply. I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but the ODbL is very terse and 
> leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Common practices for data 
> attribution in map and non-map domains rely on click-through interactions 
> like the ones FB uses. This is a completely reasonable way to make users 
> aware of the source of map data to the extent that viewers know that maps are 
> made of data, that it is often sourced externally, and that the words in the 
> corner of a map are relevant to how that basemap was produced and not (for 
> example) the location of a friend or venue overlaid on top of it. The 
> community here on talk@ is understandably focused on basemap attribution, but 
> in the context of the many hundreds of ways that FB uses maps in its products 
> and the many sources of that data, there’s also important design and 
> interaction considerations with dramatically more needs to keep in balance. 
> The power of OSM has always been its openness to new kind of uses beyond 
> simple display maps. My interest as a board member is in maintaining this 
> open approach to uses that are bigger, weirder, more niche, or otherwise 
> different than OSM might have previously imagined.
> 
> Second, Jochen examines further the issue of conflict of interest. All of us 
> involved in OSM represent a variety of interests that we bring to the map. My 
> candidacy for the board is explicitly driven by a desire to see commercial 
> and 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[stevea]

Mikel:

I’m disappointed to see you characterize Frederik’s characterization of 
behavior as “garbage;” to do so is a red herring (intentional distraction).  
While I don’t want to put words in Frederik's mouth (indeed, I said I fully 
understand why he used such colorful language — to vividly identify what he 
sees as actual or perceived disingenuous or deceitful behavior), Frederik did 
so to identify hypocrisy and aggressive abuse.  This is because identifying and 
calling out abuse is the first step is tamping it down when it (or even its 
potential) is seen in any group — whether a family or a foundation.

A sad but true fact about people who abuse is they frequently “project,” 
blame-shifting and deflecting  their own atrocious behavior (abuse of women, 
abuse of power, aggressive power plays…) onto the very person who is victimized 
or who calls out and identifies this behavior.  This (bullying) can be a 
devastatingly effective tactic that actually re-victimizes the target of the 
abuse, making him or her appear to be the crazy (weak, abusive…) one in these 
actively aggressive acts.  It also intimidates “good (people) who say nothing 
and do nothing about those who perpetrate bad or evil acts” (I paraphrase) into 
CONTINUING to do nothing.  This allows the perpetrator to continue to get away 
with the abuse, effectively silencing many who would defend not only the single 
victim (target, survivor…) but those in the greater group (family, 
congregation, company, foundation, organization, country). 

The entire point of using such strong and colorful language is not to “make a 
point with garbage, further promulgating garbage.”  It is to highlight abuse as 
abuse — raw, difficult and uncomfortable as those facts are.  Pointing out that 
somebody else engages in atrocious behavior (and using strong language to do 
so) does not make the one pointing that finger a “slinger of garbage.”  This is 
an old (yet sadly, quite effective) trick from the playbook of nasty, 
aggressive people, especially as they put on a public face of charming “nice 
guy.”  This often results in one who identifies dangerous perpetrators of 
aggression, simply in their quest to call it out, becoming suspect themselves:  
“look at the histrionic, crazy drama-queen behavior by this unfortunate, 
name-caller” (but he won’t say “victim,” as that would identify the 
psychosocial dynamics of what is truly going on).  This ruse has existed 
forever in the history of people who exercise power with terrible acts of 
aggression while remaining covert as they do so, pointing to others as “garbage 
slinging, accusatory, overly dramatic / histrionic, name-calling, unstable 
people.”  It’s a sad, old trick, and the only way to stop it is to identify it 
and have it recognized by “good people who do (or say) SOMEthing” about it, 
rather than perpetrating the evil themselves with their silence.

In many years of often close and intimate interaction / collaboration with 
Frederik in OSM, I have never, not one single time, even had a HINT that he 
“evokes violence against women.”  That is a highly inflammatory statement, 
especially as you offer no evidence of it in what appears to be blame-shifting, 
when all Frederik did (it appears to me) was to make an analogy of one leader’s 
atrocious behavior having the potential for similar bad havior to infect our 
Board.  We should call that out as we see it, and that is what is going on 
here, nothing more.  Blame-shifting in the face of identifying bad behavior is 
something I (and others who have experienced this first-hand for what it is) 
find this behavior of yours highly suspect.

I apologize to the list for going into the deeper and darker aspects of human 
behavior here.  Sometimes, it is required to do so.

SteveA

On Dec 3, 2020, at 3:32 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> Thanks Mateusz, I agree. Points can easily be made without such garbage. 
> Unfortunately Frederik has a habit of using rhetoric that evokes violence 
> against women. I’m not saying that he or anyone here personally holds biased 
> views about women. But the effect is the same, it degrades our entire 
> community. And we wonder why there are no women running for the board. 
> 
> Mikel


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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 3, 2020, 11:07 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> Am Do., 3. Dez. 2020 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <> 
> talk@openstreetmap.org> >:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by >> frede...@remote.org>> :
>>
>>> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
>>> whole
>>>
>> I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
>> to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.
>>
>> This really have not added anything useful and this insults
>> were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
>> without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
>>
>
>
> Mateusz, have a second read what Stevea wrote, because he put it very well
> why sometimes it may be appropriate to use strong terms: "However, sometimes,
> as when we have abusive, naked aggression inside of (sometimes at the very 
> top of!)
> institutions, we must call out such atrocious behavior.  We call it out to 
> say 
> “we will not stand for this.” 
>
I fully agree. And I am a bit involved in this, see 
https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap

I create it slowly, it is intended to be a version of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution that would be 
clear to someone from outside OSM.

Also, focusing on especially egregious violations.

Primarily by massive corporation where missing attribution is not caused by 
lack of 
resources, but by a deliberate plagiarism.

In Mapbox or FB display of attribution certainly went through review that judged
violating OSM license as safe.

> Sometimes, colorful language is used to draw attention to this.
>
In general I agree, see repository name that I linked above.

This was deliberate, despite some risk that one of corporations listed there
(I plan to add FB there with evidence of violating OSBL) may decide
to attack me using their overwhelming advantage in terms of money,
number of employed lawyers and experience in avoiding legal system
or misusing it for their own advantage.

I strongly prefer claims and language such as 
"FB commits large scale-copyright violation",
"FB is llegally using OpenStreetMap data to show maps",
"FB is plagiarising maps shown on their website and in apps",
"Mapbox misrepresents actual source of data",
"FB representative claims that attribution is not needed to be clearly 
displayed, what is untrue"
 "OSMF can at any moment file accurate DMCA notice to take down FB apps"
"Recent attribution guideline looks like written by FB and Mapbox lawyers,
misrepresents ODBL requirements and is deeply harmful"

All of them are accurate.

While "missing attribution is like sexual assault" seems to be inaccurate,
unlikely to be useful and unlikely to be seriously treated by people, especially
outside OSM community.

>   Sometimes, because people either are not fully aware of this in their 
> experience, wish to turn away from looking at evil, or because they are part 
> of those who "say nothing about bad men” (in the sense of John Stuart Mill’s 
> quote, while "good men...look on and do nothing") the very nature of nasty, 
> disingenuous people who mislead, lie, deceive, do not recuse, demand 
> unwarranted loyalty, refuse to play by the rules, “stack the (court, Board)," 
> slander… must be so vividly brought to light that strong and colorful 
> language IS required."
>
I fully support strong language - just one without pulling into problematic 
comparison,
USA politics, genitalia and so on. It seems to be both counteproductive and 
problematic.
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Christoph Hormann]

> Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)  hat am 
> 03.12.2020 12:27 geschrieben:
> 
> [...] It means that the
> attribution method you use must be reasonably calculated to ensure
> that *every* person viewing will be aware that content has come from
> OpenStreetMap. Nowhere does the clause allow you to only provide the
> opportunity for anyone to be able to discover the source if they
> decide to, or to only ensure some people are aware.

Exactly.

This has been identified to be the community consensus very early in the 
discussion on the attribution guideline and it was also quite clearly the 
expectation of the community when the ODbL was originally adopted in the 
license change process.

In the Community attribution advice i formulated some time ago:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_attribution_advice

I phrased it like this:

"What we mean by this is that the criterion for a valid attribution is if it 
effectively makes the user aware that OpenStreetMap data licensed under the 
ODbL is used."

Side note:  Facebook's main business model is selling the attention of their 
users to paying advertisement customers.  They have a huge department doing 
nothing but analysis of their users' behavior all day long.  They know 
*exactly* how many (or more accurately: how few) of the users of their maps 
actually become aware of the origin of the data in OSM.  

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mikel Maron]

Thanks Mateusz, I agree. Points can easily be made without such garbage. 
Unfortunately Frederik has a habit of using rhetoric that evokes violence 
against women. I’m not saying that he or anyone here personally holds biased 
views about women. But the effect is the same, it degrades our entire 
community. And we wonder why there are no women running for the board. 

Mikel

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 4:45 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
 wrote:




Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:

People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
whole

I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.

This really have not added anything useful and this insults
were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 21:56, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
> awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
> that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can.

I believe that you are wrong here. In ODbL 4.3, "any Person" is
synonymous with "every Person". The term "reasonably calculated"
modifies the whole clause, and is about the result of the scheme as a
whole, not "reasonable awareness" by individuals. It means that the
attribution method you use must be reasonably calculated to ensure
that *every* person viewing will be aware that content has come from
OpenStreetMap. Nowhere does the clause allow you to only provide the
opportunity for anyone to be able to discover the source if they
decide to, or to only ensure some people are aware. Yes, the
"reasonably calculated" means that not 100% of people necessarily have
to be aware, but the attribution scheme does have to have the purpose
and intention of making everyone aware. You have to be able to say
that under a reasonable assessment of the scheme, everyone viewing the
work will know of the ODbL source. I think it's clear this is not the
case for the current Facebook attribution, as clearly lots of people
will not choose to click on the "(i)" icon.

Given your interpretation of ODbL 4.3 and the statements you have made
so far, does this mean that you and/or Facebook are admitting that the
current Facebook attribution does not meet this stricter
interpretation of 4.3? i.e. the current Facebook attribution is not
"reasonably calculated" to ensure that every person who "uses, views,
accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work
aware that Content was obtained from" OpenStreetMap?

I think this is a crucial point that the OSM community needs an answer
to, given your candidacy for the OSMF Board.

Many thanks,

Robert.

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 3. Dez. 2020 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org>:

>
>
>
> Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:
>
> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole
>
> I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
> to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.
>
> This really have not added anything useful and this insults
> were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
> without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
>


Mateusz, have a second read what Stevea wrote, because he put it very well
why sometimes it may be appropriate to use strong terms: "However,
sometimes, as when we have abusive, naked aggression inside of (sometimes
at the very top of!) institutions, we must call out such atrocious
behavior.  We call it out to say “we will not stand for this.”  Sometimes,
colorful language is used to draw attention to this.  Sometimes, because
people either are not fully aware of this in their experience, wish to turn
away from looking at evil, or because they are part of those who "say
nothing about bad men” (in the sense of John Stuart Mill’s quote, while
"good men...look on and do nothing") the very nature of nasty, disingenuous
people who mislead, lie, deceive, do not recuse, demand unwarranted
loyalty, refuse to play by the rules, “stack the (court, Board)," slander…
must be so vividly brought to light that strong and colorful language IS
required."

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:

> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole
>
I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.

This really have not added anything useful and this insults
were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[stevea]

While I have travelled widely, I call California home (and have for several 
decades) so I unapologetically have a parochial perspective from the USA.  
Clifford, I deeply respect you, Frederik and many others in OSM:  it is a 
global project about all of Earth (and its humanity, among other things).  I 
agree with you about being exhausted at relentlessly hearing a shadowy US 
president repeatedly lie and bluster his way through the most embarrassing 
period of “leadership" in our country’s history.  We (indeed, all of humanity) 
will eventually heal from these wounds.

However, sometimes, as when we have abusive, naked aggression inside of 
(sometimes at the very top of!) institutions, we must call out such atrocious 
behavior.  We call it out to say “we will not stand for this.”  Sometimes, 
colorful language is used to draw attention to this.  Sometimes, because people 
either are not fully aware of this in their experience, wish to turn away from 
looking at evil, or because they are part of those who "say nothing about bad 
men” (in the sense of John Stuart Mill’s quote, while "good men...look on and 
do nothing") the very nature of nasty, disingenuous people who mislead, lie, 
deceive, do not recuse, demand unwarranted loyalty, refuse to play by the 
rules, “stack the (court, Board)," slander… must be so vividly brought to light 
that strong and colorful language IS required.

I understand why Frederik used strong language.  It is (usually) not pleasant 
to countenance what either is or looks like underhandedness, attempts to 
mislead or disingenuous behavior.  Yet among friends, families, groups, 
institutions, companies, societies, facing any ugliness which might rise from 
within is a necessary chore.  Figuratively put a clothespin on your noise at 
the whiff of stink if you must, but let us not censor as “completely 
inappropriate” what are topics of critical importance to the present and future 
of OSM as we discuss the supremely important topic(s) of conflict of interest 
(among others).  These are “front burner” issues and we must not shy away from 
candid discussion about them.  If strong and colorful language must be used 
(and indeed, sometimes it must), let us remain respectful, not make personal 
attacks and offer our very best to keep (national, parochial, partisan…) 
politics out of it, remaining as objective as possible.

These are difficult times.  Let us retain good senses of our humanity, lest we 
devolve from even being human.  OSM has what it takes to make good decisions.  
Every day, today included, we put that to the test.

SteveA


> On Dec 2, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> Frederik,
> I've had it with four years of listening to Trump. Not only don't I want to 
> hear it on OSM but it's completely inappropriate for a mailing list. Can you 
> please respond in a constructive manner.
> 
> Thanks,
> Clifford
> 
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 12/2/20 23:09, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> > FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that
> > is commonly associated with attribution.
> > 
> > Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for
> > attribution.
> 
> Agree with Mateusz, and I'm just flabbergasted how someone can kick our
> license in the groin and have the audacity to ask for the community to
> thank them for it with a board seat, where they will be tasked with
> upholding values they apparently don't share.
> 
> If Mike Migurski at least had the decency to say: "Yeah, my employer
> sucks with attribution, I know, and I'm trying to get it fixed." I
> wouldn't believe him but at least he'd say something that is ok. But
> instead he says "y'all suck with your baseless ideas of attribution,
> please vote for me."
> 
> Anyone who thinks that, once elected, Mike will put OSM's interests
> before those of Facebook because that's his job as a board member, think
> twice. People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected
> he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab
> our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would, and he's being
> paid a fine salary for that from one of the most disturbing mega-corps
> on the planet.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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> 
> -- 
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Clifford Snow]

Frederik,
I've had it with four years of listening to Trump. Not only don't I want to
hear it on OSM but it's completely inappropriate for a mailing list. Can
you please respond in a constructive manner.

Thanks,
Clifford

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 12/2/20 23:09, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> > FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that
> > is commonly associated with attribution.
> >
> > Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for
> > attribution.
>
> Agree with Mateusz, and I'm just flabbergasted how someone can kick our
> license in the groin and have the audacity to ask for the community to
> thank them for it with a board seat, where they will be tasked with
> upholding values they apparently don't share.
>
> If Mike Migurski at least had the decency to say: "Yeah, my employer
> sucks with attribution, I know, and I'm trying to get it fixed." I
> wouldn't believe him but at least he'd say something that is ok. But
> instead he says "y'all suck with your baseless ideas of attribution,
> please vote for me."
>
> Anyone who thinks that, once elected, Mike will put OSM's interests
> before those of Facebook because that's his job as a board member, think
> twice. People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected
> he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab
> our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would, and he's being
> paid a fine salary for that from one of the most disturbing mega-corps
> on the planet.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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>


-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:

> Hi,
>
> On 12/2/20 23:09, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that
>>  is commonly associated with attribution.
>>
>> Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for
>> attribution.
>>
>
> Agree with Mateusz, and I'm just flabbergasted how someone can kick our
> license in the groin and have the audacity to ask for the community to
> thank them for it with a board seat, where they will be tasked with
> upholding values they apparently don't share.
>
Small note: something went wrong with quotes here, 
I am not author of the first paragraph and I consider it as dubious at
best.
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 2:56 PM Michal Migurski  wrote:

> In some specific cases there may be a conflict of interest where I’d
> recuse myself, but in general it’s much more likely that FB and other
> companies’ need for a high-quality, free, global map with a healthy org
> behind it is *strongly aligned* with OSMF’s interests.
>
Thanks for running for the board, and for inviting discussion of your
candidacy here. Your willingness to address criticisms headon shows good
character.

I realize that the exact meaning of "conflict of interest" (COI) is going
to vary from organization to organization, and from culture to culture.  I
have worked for a number of corporations in the US where we had mandatory
annual COI training.  A COI was anything where you (and any family member
or other organization you are part of) and the corporation had an interest
in the same issue.  Whether you felt that your interests and the interests
of the corporation were aligned didn't matter.   The reason being that if
you had an interest in something you, whether you realize it or not,  are
going to tend to think that what is in your interest is also in the
interest of everyone else.  For example, since both your employer FB and
the OSMF have an interest in "attribution guidelines", I would think you
should recuse yourself from any work or decision making by the board in
this matter, should you be elected.  Just my 2 cents...

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 12/2/20 23:09, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that
> is commonly associated with attribution.
> 
> Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for
> attribution.

Agree with Mateusz, and I'm just flabbergasted how someone can kick our
license in the groin and have the audacity to ask for the community to
thank them for it with a board seat, where they will be tasked with
upholding values they apparently don't share.

If Mike Migurski at least had the decency to say: "Yeah, my employer
sucks with attribution, I know, and I'm trying to get it fixed." I
wouldn't believe him but at least he'd say something that is ok. But
instead he says "y'all suck with your baseless ideas of attribution,
please vote for me."

Anyone who thinks that, once elected, Mike will put OSM's interests
before those of Facebook because that's his job as a board member, think
twice. People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
whole grab-them-by-the-pussy talk is just showmanship and once elected
he'll be more presidential. But don't be fooled. Mike is going to grab
our licence by the pussy just as he promised he would, and he's being
paid a fine salary for that from one of the most disturbing mega-corps
on the planet.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Michal Migurski:

Hi Robert, Martin, Alexandre, Jochen, Richard, Tom:

Thanks for your followups in this conversation! I am speaking here as an individual 
and not on behalf of Facebook, 


great.
...


First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” awareness. FB 
believes its maps comply with this.


So speaking as an individual, do *you* believe that FB complies with the ODbBL?


--
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Alexandre Oliveira]

> First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
> awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
> that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can. 
> FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is 
> commonly associated with attribution.
Not true. The button is barely visible and only those really looking
for attribution will be able to spot the button, and even then it's
very easy to miss the button.


>  I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but the ODbL is very terse and 
> leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
Uhh, except not? It leaves a lot of room for interpretation because
corporate users want to read imaginary text between the lines. The
ODbL license text is crystal clear that the attribution should be
somewhere visible, and hiding under interaction of a nearly-hidden
button is not visible.


> Common practices for data attribution in map and non-map domains rely on 
> click-through interactions like the ones FB uses.
This image shows otherwise[0]


> and that the words in the corner of a map are relevant to how that basemap 
> was produced and not (for example) the location of a friend or venue overlaid 
> on top of it.
I would agree with you if FB and Mapbox (another corporate user that
doesn't attribute OSM correctly) used OSM data solely for displaying
POIs, which isn't the case.


> My interest as a board member is in maintaining this open approach to uses 
> that are bigger, weirder, more niche, or otherwise different than OSM might 
> have previously imagined.
By undermining attribution of a big, open and free dataset, it would
only please corporate users.


> but in general it’s much more likely that FB and other companies’ need for a 
> high-quality, free, global map with a healthy org behind it is *strongly 
> aligned* with OSMF’s interests.
Nope. The corporate users want a free database, so they don't have to
pay a single cent of royalties to who produced the database. They want
to use something free and open, but don't want to credit it. They want
to change attribution guidelines so they don't have to worry about
potential lawsuits that may follow.

I really don't understand how hard is it to add a text on the corner
of the map including the words "(c) OpenStreetMap contributors" and
linking to the project. You're not paying and once you add attribution
you shouldn't worry about it anymore. Why do corporate users have to
make things so hard?


Corporate users have succeeded in pushing their agenda in the working
group writing the attribution guidelines draft. Just take a look,
there are so many examples accepted by the WG that go against what's
written in the ODbL (splash screen being one of them)[1].

[0] https://www.systemed.net/osm/attribution.png
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Draft_Attribution_Guideline/2020v2

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Michal,,

 

> Successful attribution guidelines published by the OSMF will make it much 
> easier to decide how to interpret the ODbL.

 

The problem is, I expect the current draft will not get support from the 
community so for me its back to my original question.

 

Given the community concern about the lack of ‘community required attribution’ 
by Facebook (and other major corporations) do you think it would be beneficial 
for Facebook to take a corporate lead in updating attribution to that accepted 
by the community, without the need for further guidelines. I have found that 
when requested politely to update the attribution as requested at 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright, most organisations do the right thing 
by the community.

 

To me this has more to do with how much Facebook values the OSM Community…not a 
legal definition/interpretation of ODbL licencing

 

Cheers – Phil

 

 

From: Michal Migurski  
Sent: Thursday, 3 December 2020 8:51 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours 
for questions

 

Hi Robert, Martin, Alexandre, Jochen, Richard, Tom:

Thanks for your followups in this conversation! I am speaking here as an 
individual and not on behalf of Facebook, so I’m going to focus on the areas 
relevant to board candidacy.
 
First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can. 
FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is commonly 
associated with attribution.

Successful attribution guidelines published by the OSMF will make it much 
easier to decide how to interpret the ODbL. As a board member with experience 
in cartography design & implementation and OSM-relevant companies my 
involvement will make it more likely that the eventual attribution guidelines 
work for everyone.

A few of you have pushed back on my “beyond the ODbL” framing in my prior 
reply. I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but the ODbL is very terse and 
leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Common practices for data attribution 
in map and non-map domains rely on click-through interactions like the ones FB 
uses. This is a completely reasonable way to make users aware of the source of 
map data to the extent that viewers know that maps are made of data, that it is 
often sourced externally, and that the words in the corner of a map are 
relevant to how that basemap was produced and not (for example) the location of 
a friend or venue overlaid on top of it. The community here on talk@ is 
understandably focused on basemap attribution, but in the context of the many 
hundreds of ways that FB uses maps in its products and the many sources of that 
data, there’s also important design and interaction considerations with 
dramatically more needs to keep in balance. The power of OSM has always been 
its openness to new kind of uses beyond simple display maps. My interest as a 
board member is in maintaining this open approach to uses that are bigger, 
weirder, more niche, or otherwise different than OSM might have previously 
imagined.

Second, Jochen examines further the issue of conflict of interest. All of us 
involved in OSM represent a variety of interests that we bring to the map. My 
candidacy for the board is explicitly driven by a desire to see commercial and 
organizational use of OSM better represented in the OSMF. In some specific 
cases there may be a conflict of interest where I’d recuse myself, but in 
general it’s much more likely that FB and other companies’ need for a 
high-quality, free, global map with a healthy org behind it is *strongly 
aligned* with OSMF’s interests. I’ve held this belief for many years and in 
many organizations. As a board member I would work with members representing 
other OSM constituencies to make sure all these overlapping needs and desires 
lead to an OSM that’s stronger together.

Thanks everyone for your words in the thread so far. The annual election 
process is important because it’s one of the only venues OSM has typically had 
to ask itself tough questions and make important decisions.

-mike.



michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Michal Migurski mailto:m...@teczno.com> > wrote:

 

Hi everyone,

 

I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make the 
OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must succeed 
at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.


I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 2, 2020, 22:50 by m...@teczno.com:

> The ODbL does not require that “every” person see the attribution. It 
> requires that “any” person can.
>
Untrue.

"notice associated withthe Produced Work reasonably calculated to make any 
Person that 
uses,views, accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the 
ProducedWork aware
that Content was obtained from"

It is not , it is
.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. But reading of this seems quite clear to me.


>  FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is 
> commonly associated with attribution.
>
Barely visible icon that must be clicked is not a standard place for 
attribution.
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Michal Migurski]

Hi Robert, Martin, Alexandre, Jochen, Richard, Tom:

Thanks for your followups in this conversation! I am speaking here as an 
individual and not on behalf of Facebook, so I’m going to focus on the areas 
relevant to board candidacy.
 
First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can. 
FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is commonly 
associated with attribution.

Successful attribution guidelines published by the OSMF will make it much 
easier to decide how to interpret the ODbL. As a board member with experience 
in cartography design & implementation and OSM-relevant companies my 
involvement will make it more likely that the eventual attribution guidelines 
work for everyone.

A few of you have pushed back on my “beyond the ODbL” framing in my prior 
reply. I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but the ODbL is very terse and 
leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Common practices for data attribution 
in map and non-map domains rely on click-through interactions like the ones FB 
uses. This is a completely reasonable way to make users aware of the source of 
map data to the extent that viewers know that maps are made of data, that it is 
often sourced externally, and that the words in the corner of a map are 
relevant to how that basemap was produced and not (for example) the location of 
a friend or venue overlaid on top of it. The community here on talk@ is 
understandably focused on basemap attribution, but in the context of the many 
hundreds of ways that FB uses maps in its products and the many sources of that 
data, there’s also important design and interaction considerations with 
dramatically more needs to keep in balance. The power of OSM has always been 
its openness to new kind of uses beyond simple display maps. My interest as a 
board member is in maintaining this open approach to uses that are bigger, 
weirder, more niche, or otherwise different than OSM might have previously 
imagined.

Second, Jochen examines further the issue of conflict of interest. All of us 
involved in OSM represent a variety of interests that we bring to the map. My 
candidacy for the board is explicitly driven by a desire to see commercial and 
organizational use of OSM better represented in the OSMF. In some specific 
cases there may be a conflict of interest where I’d recuse myself, but in 
general it’s much more likely that FB and other companies’ need for a 
high-quality, free, global map with a healthy org behind it is *strongly 
aligned* with OSMF’s interests. I’ve held this belief for many years and in 
many organizations. As a board member I would work with members representing 
other OSM constituencies to make sure all these overlapping needs and desires 
lead to an OSM that’s stronger together.

Thanks everyone for your words in the thread so far. The annual election 
process is important because it’s one of the only venues OSM has typically had 
to ask itself tough questions and make important decisions.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

> On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
> community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make the 
> OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must 
> succeed at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.
> 
> I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
> questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything else. 
> I did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
> conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over the 
> next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in touch 
> via email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!
> 
>   • Dec 1, 16:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201201T16=388=1
>  
> 
>   • Dec 3, 8:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201203T08=388=1
>  
> 
>   • Dec 4, 16:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201205T16=388=1
>  
> 
>   • Dec 9, 8:00 PST – 
> 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Alexandre Oliveira]

I would like to ask a question related to #1.

Let's make a thought exercise. OSM provides geographical data, right? By
definition, a map is a visualization of geographical and other types of
data. In this case, a tile server is nothing more than the visual
representation of the geographical data. Don't you agree that without the
data OSM provides there would be no map (of course you can use other
sources like Google or Bing), since there would be no data to be visualized
and represented?

So why is attribution not necessary? The most important part of the map is
its data, without it there is no map. So I can't understand why you're so
hostile towards proper attribution which is REQUIRED by the ODbL.

I would also like to ask, given the circumstances, would it be fair if I
use Mapillary images (now that the service is in the hands of Facebook) and
hide attribution credits under a button your average user won't ever see?
They might think that data comes from Street View by Google.


And finally, I'd like to remind everyone that the LeafletJS library, used
by many, comes with attribution enabled by default, if there is no
attribution it was removed intentionally and in bad faith.
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Tom Hughes via talk]

On 02/12/2020 09:27, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Michal Migurski wrote:
 > FB’s attribution approach in keeping with best practices

seen from other commercial users of display maps.


In the spirit of Twitter footnoting one of Donald Trump's "I won the 
election" tweets, this is your respectful reminder that Google, Bing, 
Here, Tencent, ViaMichelin, TomTom, Mapquest, Esri, and Qwant all have 
on-map attribution.


The really curious thing is that of all of those, it is only Facebook
that manages to annoy our volunteers by causing them to receive what
are essentially support requests that should be going to Faceboook.

Something about the way Facebook attributes causes their users to
think that we are responsible for whatever problems they are having...

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 2. Dez. 2020 um 09:51 Uhr schrieb Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) <
robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com>:

> On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 03:41, Michal Migurski  wrote:
>
> > Facebook is in compliance with the ODbL license which requires that
> attribution be “reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views,
> accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work
> aware” of OSM’s contribution to a map.
>
> Are you seriously claiming that *every* person who views one of the
> maps on Facebook, will either already know that it uses OpenStreetMap
> data, or will click on the faint "(i)" logo to find that out?
>



yes, this short exchange already demonstrates that there is an evident
conflict of interest huge like a skyscraper, implicit in being employed by
facebook and serving on the OSM board. By not acknowledging the obvious
insufficiency of attribution but rather trying to defend it, Michal has
provided the necessary information to evaluate where he stands. Thank you,
no more questions.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Jochen Topf]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 07:36:24PM -0800, Michal Migurski wrote:
> Facebook is in compliance with the ODbL license which requires that 
> attribution be “reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, 
> accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware” 
> of OSM’s contribution to a map. FB’s attribution approach in keeping with 
> best practices seen from other commercial users of display maps.
> 
> Parts of the community have expressed a desire to see attribution that goes 
> beyond the ODbL. [...]

Very interesting way of framing the issue. First you assert that
Facebook is in compliance. Then you talk about "Parts of the community"
who want something "beyond the ODbL.". But that's a straw man [1]
argument. This argument is not about people wanting something beyond the
ODbL. This is about a difference in opinion how the license is to be
interpreted. Facebook simply reads the license in a different way than
other people.

This framing is especially interesting, because as board member you
would have to defend the ODbL and have a conflict of interest over any
issue where different interpretations of the ODbL between OSM/the
community vs. Facebook are involved. But you would not have a conflict
of interest over anything "beyond the ODbL". So by framing the issue
this way you argued yourself out of your conflict of interest problem in
this issue. Very clever!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Richard Fairhurst]

Michal Migurski wrote:
> FB’s attribution approach in keeping with best practices
> seen from other commercial users of display maps.

In the spirit of Twitter footnoting one of Donald Trump's "I won the election" 
tweets, this is your respectful reminder that Google, Bing, Here, Tencent, 
ViaMichelin, TomTom, Mapquest, Esri, and Qwant all have on-map attribution.

http://www.systemed.net/osm/attribution.png

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 03:41, Michal Migurski  wrote:

> Facebook is in compliance with the ODbL license which requires that 
> attribution be “reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, 
> accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware” 
> of OSM’s contribution to a map.

Are you seriously claiming that *every* person who views one of the
maps on Facebook, will either already know that it uses OpenStreetMap
data, or will click on the faint "(i)" logo to find that out? Because
that is what the ODbL requires. This isn't just about a mechanism for
people who are already motivated to find out where the map data comes
from, your attribution needs to be reasonably calculated to ensure
that *everyone* viewing one of your maps (whether they're interested
or not) is aware that the map data has come from OpenStreetMap. I
don't see how you can claim that your current attribution does that.

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Phil Wyatt]

Hi Michal,

 

I have a second question on #1

 

Given the community concern about the lack of ‘community required attribution’ 
by Facebook (and other major corporations) do you think it would be beneficial 
for Facebook to take a corporate lead in updating attribution to that accepted 
by the community, without the need for further guidelines. I have found that 
when requested politely to update the attribution as requested at 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright, most organisations do the right thing 
by the community.

 

Cheers – Phil (tastrax)

 

From: Michal Migurski  
Sent: Wednesday, 2 December 2020 2:36 PM
To: Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours 
for questions

 

Great questions, thanks Mateusz!

 

I’ll start with #2 because the answer is very straightforward: I would recuse 
myself from cases where there is a conflict of interest between the 
OpenStreetMap Foundation and my employer or other organizations whose boards I 
serve on (currently PlanScore, Facebook, GreenInfo Network, and Digital 
Democracy).

 

#1 is a two-parter.

 

Facebook is in compliance with the ODbL license which requires that attribution 
be “reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, 
interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware” of OSM’s 
contribution to a map. FB’s attribution approach in keeping with best practices 
seen from other commercial users of display maps.

Parts of the community have expressed a desire to see attribution that goes 
beyond the ODbL. OSMF and its LWG have been developing new OSM-specific 
attribution guidelines since late 2019 with proposed rules for different screen 
sizes, number of clicks, and privileged position of OSM contributors relative 
to other data sources. Currently, these are not yet finalized. Once these are 
released, Facebook would revisit attribution decisions in light of the wishes 
of the OSMF.

 

I hope this answers your questions!

 

-mike.

 


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





On Dec 1, 2020, at 9:12 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:

 

(1)

In 2019 you answered

 

"we’re moving toward a consolidated approach to maps at Facebook. Thus, you 
will soon

see us take a more uniform approach to the way we handle attribution across all 
map

surfaces across the company"

 

to question[1] about illegal OSM data use (without proper attribution) by 
Facebook, MAPS.ME

and Moovit[2].

 

Do you consider current attribution used by Facebook as sufficient and 
displayed to all users,

as required by ODBL license?

 

 

 

(2)

Would you recuse yourself from cases where there is conflict of interest 
between OSM

and Facebook?

 

For example on issues such us

- enforcing attribution requirements

- protecting OSMF from takeover by corporations, such as Facebook

- handling paid/organized editing

 

?

 

 

[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM19/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos

[2] MAPS.ME still has insufficient attribution, with 1.5 sec flash on opening 
and "MAPS.ME"

attribution otherwise, Moovit fixed its attribution in Android app

 

Nov 30, 2020, 21:04 by m...@teczno.com  :

Absolutely!

 



michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:

sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

 

On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:

 

Is it also OK to ask questions also in public via mailing list?

 

 

Nov 30, 2020, 20:00 by m...@teczno.com  :

Hi everyone,

 

I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make the 
OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must succeed 
at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.

 

I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything else. I 
did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over the 
next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in touch via 
email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!

 

• Dec 1, 16:00 PST – 
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours
 

 =20201201T16=388=1

• Dec 3, 8:00 PST – 
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours
 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Michal Migurski]

Great questions, thanks Mateusz!

I’ll start with #2 because the answer is very straightforward: I would recuse 
myself from cases where there is a conflict of interest between the 
OpenStreetMap Foundation and my employer or other organizations whose boards I 
serve on (currently PlanScore, Facebook, GreenInfo Network, and Digital 
Democracy).

#1 is a two-parter.

Facebook is in compliance with the ODbL license which requires that attribution 
be “reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, 
interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware” of OSM’s 
contribution to a map. FB’s attribution approach in keeping with best practices 
seen from other commercial users of display maps.

Parts of the community have expressed a desire to see attribution that goes 
beyond the ODbL. OSMF and its LWG have been developing new OSM-specific 
attribution guidelines since late 2019 with proposed rules for different screen 
sizes, number of clicks, and privileged position of OSM contributors relative 
to other data sources. Currently, these are not yet finalized. Once these are 
released, Facebook would revisit attribution decisions in light of the wishes 
of the OSMF.

I hope this answers your questions!

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 9:12 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>  wrote:
> 
> (1)
> In 2019 you answered
> 
> "we’re moving toward a consolidated approach to maps at Facebook. Thus, you 
> will soon
> see us take a more uniform approach to the way we handle attribution across 
> all map
> surfaces across the company"
> 
> to question[1] about illegal OSM data use (without proper attribution) by 
> Facebook, MAPS.ME
> and Moovit[2].
> 
> Do you consider current attribution used by Facebook as sufficient and 
> displayed to all users,
> as required by ODBL license?
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> Would you recuse yourself from cases where there is conflict of interest 
> between OSM
> and Facebook?
> 
> For example on issues such us
> - enforcing attribution requirements
> - protecting OSMF from takeover by corporations, such as Facebook
> - handling paid/organized editing
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM19/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos
>  
> 
> [2] MAPS.ME still has insufficient attribution, with 1.5 sec flash on opening 
> and "MAPS.ME"
> attribution otherwise, Moovit fixed its attribution in Android app
> 
> Nov 30, 2020, 21:04 by m...@teczno.com:
> Absolutely!
> 
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>> mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Is it also OK to ask questions also in public via mailing list?
>> 
>> 
>> Nov 30, 2020, 20:00 by m...@teczno.com :
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
>> community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make 
>> the OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must 
>> succeed at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.
>> 
>> I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
>> questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything 
>> else. I did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
>> conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over the 
>> next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in touch 
>> via email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!
>> 
>> • Dec 1, 16:00 PST – 
>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201201T16=388=1
>>  
>> 
>> • Dec 3, 8:00 PST – 
>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201203T08=388=1
>>  
>> 
>> • Dec 4, 16:00 PST – 
>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201205T16=388=1
>>  
>> 
>> • Dec 9, 8:00 PST – 
>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201209T08=388=1
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Read my complete manifesto on 

Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

(1)
In 2019 you answered

"we’re moving toward a consolidated approach to maps at Facebook. Thus, you 
will soon
see us take a more uniform approach to the way we handle attribution across all 
map
surfaces across the company"

to question[1] about illegal OSM data use (without proper attribution) by 
Facebook, MAPS.ME
and Moovit[2].

Do you consider current attribution used by Facebook as sufficient and 
displayed to all users,
as required by ODBL license?



(2)
Would you recuse yourself from cases where there is conflict of interest 
between OSM
and Facebook?

For example on issues such us
- enforcing attribution requirements
- protecting OSMF from takeover by corporations, such as Facebook
- handling paid/organized editing

?


[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM19/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos
[2] MAPS.ME still has insufficient attribution, with 1.5 sec flash on opening 
and "MAPS.ME"
attribution otherwise, Moovit fixed its attribution in Android app

Nov 30, 2020, 21:04 by m...@teczno.com:

> Absolutely!
>
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/ca            > http://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>
>
>> On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk <>> 
>> talk@openstreetmap.org>> > wrote:
>>
>> Is it also OK to ask questions also in public via mailing list?
>>
>>
>> Nov 30, 2020, 20:00 by >> m...@teczno.com>> :
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
>>> community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make 
>>> the OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must 
>>> succeed at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.
>>>
>>> I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
>>> questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything 
>>> else. I did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
>>> conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over 
>>> the next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in 
>>> touch via email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!
>>>
>>> • Dec 1, 16:00 PST – >>> 
>>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201201T16=388=1
>>> • Dec 3, 8:00 PST – >>> 
>>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201203T08=388=1
>>> • Dec 4, 16:00 PST – >>> 
>>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201205T16=388=1
>>> • Dec 9, 8:00 PST – >>> 
>>> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201209T08=388=1>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>> Read my complete manifesto on the Wiki for more about why I think I’d make 
>>> a good OSMF board member: >>> 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM20/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos/Michal_Migurski#Manifesto>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>> -mike.
>>>
>>> 
>>> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
>>> sf/ca            >>> http://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Michal Migurski]

Absolutely!


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

> On Nov 30, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is it also OK to ask questions also in public via mailing list?
> 
> 
> Nov 30, 2020, 20:00 by m...@teczno.com:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
> community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make the 
> OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must 
> succeed at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.
> 
> I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
> questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything else. 
> I did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
> conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over the 
> next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in touch 
> via email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!
> 
> • Dec 1, 16:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201201T16=388=1
>  
> 
> • Dec 3, 8:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201203T08=388=1
>  
> 
> • Dec 4, 16:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201205T16=388=1
>  
> 
> • Dec 9, 8:00 PST – 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201209T08=388=1
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Read my complete manifesto on the Wiki for more about why I think I’d make a 
> good OSMF board member: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM20/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos/Michal_Migurski#Manifesto
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -mike.
> 
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html 
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Is it also OK to ask questions also in public via mailing list?


Nov 30, 2020, 20:00 by m...@teczno.com:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I’m excited to be running for the OSMF board this year! In 2021, OSM’s 
> community has two opportunities to grow stronger together: we should make the 
> OSM organization support a wider diversity of participants and we must 
> succeed at starting to manage our technical operations professionally.
>
> I’d like to make myself available for conversations with anyone who has 
> questions about my candidacy, manifesto, priorities, or really anything else. 
> I did this last year when I ran and ended up having a few really fun 
> conversations with community members. I’m blocking these four times over the 
> next two weeks prior to the close of voting and AGM on Dec 12; get in touch 
> via email if you’d like to chat by text, voice, or video!
>
> • Dec 1, 16:00 PST – > 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201201T16=388=1
> • Dec 3, 8:00 PST – > 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201203T08=388=1
> • Dec 4, 16:00 PST – > 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201205T16=388=1
> • Dec 9, 8:00 PST – > 
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=OSMF+Campaign+Office+Hours=20201209T08=388=1>
>   
>
> Read my complete manifesto on the Wiki for more about why I think I’d make a 
> good OSMF board member: > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM20/Election_to_Board/Answers_and_manifestos/Michal_Migurski#Manifesto>
>   
>
> -mike.
>
> 
> michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
> sf/ca            > http://mike.teczno.com/contact.html
>

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