Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
Such topics are curently discussed during the voting of a power tagging proposal on the wiki. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_supports_refinement Have a look to the voting section. As I understand, renders is A (out of plenty) way to look at the data. It sounds very restrictive to make the data look like just a few people want to see it. What about ones who just want to produce data without looking at it from a narrow window ? The main argument opposed is often oh wait, this would cause a rendering issue. Thus, why the render can't adapt if the information is available in the data ? I totally agree with people who separate data from renders (structure from styles). It can be very frustrating to often prevent a good structure from existing because styles won't match. OSM should look at this problem deeply and make strong choices, before letting other sorts of contributors to leave the boat. All the best *François Lacombe* fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com www.infos-reseaux.com @InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux 2015-05-18 12:19 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: On 18/05/2015, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: I think the mission will be accomplished once we have it integrated with OSM website somehow, just like we did with routing: there were already a few routing services using our data, so we may not care, but for average user they were just not here. And so is uMap. Routing is different in that it is immediately useful to *contributors*, who can now check that the OSM data is correct for routing, just like the slippymap is useful to check that the data looks good. uMap not so much : as a contributor, I'd rather use josm, taginfo, overpass, or even data dumps. As nice as it'd be, http://osm.org/ is not trying to be http://maps.google.com/. It's not trying to be the One True Map Portal that caters to every needs. Some reasons off the top of my head, some strong and some weak : * The needs of contributors and users can easily conflict, and priority is/should be given to the contributors. * Even without conflicts, the size of the contributor-focused todo list means that enduser-focused features get constantly pushed back. Help welcome. * Becoming the internet's one-stop map website would require huge server ressources. Getting the kind of money required to run them would require huge changes to the way OSM is run, which'd be dangerous for OSM's freedom. * Similarly for manpower requirements; volunteers wouldn't be enough anymore. * A healthy ecosystem of commercial users is important for OSM. And they should be able to do a better job of serving the end-user, so it's probably a bad idea to compete with their use-case. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
Am 18.05.2015 um 00:44 schrieb Paul Norman penor...@mac.com: Tiles@home was not a P2P map style, it was kept in SVN and used a distributed rendering system. Distributed rendering is still used, primarily by larger scale operations. yes, but because there were no or few authorities to control what came onto the map (svn write access was sufficient), it was also a very flexible, fast moving, very responsive (in that time mapnik got re-rendered once a week), every pet tag displaying, colorful, esthetic mess. It had its advantages but wasn't really a nice map. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
On 18/05/2015, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: I think the mission will be accomplished once we have it integrated with OSM website somehow, just like we did with routing: there were already a few routing services using our data, so we may not care, but for average user they were just not here. And so is uMap. Routing is different in that it is immediately useful to *contributors*, who can now check that the OSM data is correct for routing, just like the slippymap is useful to check that the data looks good. uMap not so much : as a contributor, I'd rather use josm, taginfo, overpass, or even data dumps. As nice as it'd be, http://osm.org/ is not trying to be http://maps.google.com/. It's not trying to be the One True Map Portal that caters to every needs. Some reasons off the top of my head, some strong and some weak : * The needs of contributors and users can easily conflict, and priority is/should be given to the contributors. * Even without conflicts, the size of the contributor-focused todo list means that enduser-focused features get constantly pushed back. Help welcome. * Becoming the internet's one-stop map website would require huge server ressources. Getting the kind of money required to run them would require huge changes to the way OSM is run, which'd be dangerous for OSM's freedom. * Similarly for manpower requirements; volunteers wouldn't be enough anymore. * A healthy ecosystem of commercial users is important for OSM. And they should be able to do a better job of serving the end-user, so it's probably a bad idea to compete with their use-case. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 18.05.2015 0:44, Paul Norman napisał(a): I am not certain of the details after this long, but I don't think the Tiles@home rendering was P2P either - simply distributed. You're probably right! =} I just focused on how distributed platform could be even more distributed in the future. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
Am 17.05.2015 um 21:36 schrieb Daniel Koć: . I also don't think we should let anybody do anything on default map, however the general idea is good if we split the problem: 1. We should have some tools to let people render their own style, no matter how crazy. It's possible of course from the technical point of view (the data and tools are available and the licenses are open), but that is far too complicated for average Joe or Jane. I suspect kind of P2P tools would be great, but have no clear ideas about it. The positive output would be more people can edit map style and we have more experts for working with default style. There is a reason that maps are protected by copyright, making a aesthetically pleasing and useful map (in any respect) is difficult, and in the digital world it hasn't become any easier. As has been pointed out there is no lack of tools that make editing a/the style easy, that just doesn't mean that the actually crafting a good map is easy. 2. But default map style is still underused. Reluctance to show everything on merits that it's impossible, because it should be a mess, probably does not take into account that some features may be rendered only on highest zoom levels. For example we have trash cans and benches from the latest version of osm-carto and that is not a problem, because they are rendered on z=19! OSM for a long time -had- a show essentially everything map style and there wasn't a lot of protest when it went away, nor did anybody feel strongly enough about it to invest the effort to keep it around. I know you'd love to have a map that renders everything but you will not get that from OpenStreetMap. As all the data is available there is nothing to stop you setting up your own map renderer and doing as you please (although good luck making it look anything other than a mess). As I said in 1. - for nerds it's not a problem at all, but for the most of OSM mappers (see the long tail thread) that is not the option until they have as easy to use tools as iD for editing. Showing your favourite objects on a map with uMap is reasonably easy and in the mean time something fairly popular even with people without a deep technical background. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 17.05.2015 22:22, moltonel 3x Combo napisał(a): Did you even try the existing tools ? Tilemilll is very userfriendly, and if Joe or Jane has trouble setting it up, they can just use the MapBox instance. There's very little skill needed to start tweaking an existing style, and the learning curve is IMHO not too steep, considering how intrinsically complicated the task is. Yes, I did some initial work with Tilemill and plan to go even further. I think it's a very nice tool (well, I hope I'll be able to open more than a few tabs once =} ), but why do you think it's existence and great UI are all one needs? My personal problem is setting it on my version of Ubuntu with right database and Mapnik. Also I mentioned average Joe or Jane, not average Geek or Nerd. ;-} Even if they will be able to start working with TileMill, they probably won't be ready to set their own tiling server for friends, family or coworkers. I have no idea how you'd apply P2P to map style design. It sounds like you; ve heard of a great technology, and want to apply it to every problem without fully understanding the technology and/or the problem. I even used it once on OSM - it was called Tiles@home. My reasoning is simple: we are very decentralized, but still use plain old centralized servers with only few styles to render. Why not create a lightweight platform for people where we just let them connect, exchange their styles and share rendering/tiles? I may be wrong, but that's just the idea to test. Sorry if I was not too clear what I mean. I assure you the osm-carto devs are competent and take those things into account. It's a design decision, they want the map to be pretty as well, not just a show-everything endeavour. They've also stoped rendering some things that they felt didn't match the usecase. Nevertheless, they managed to continually increase the data density, while making the style more eye-pleasing. Congrats to them. You don't have to assure me: +1 - it's quite nice map and kudos for devs! But still underused in my opinion. Being technically competent is one thing and there are other problems also - I'm an active member trying to be more of a developer too and I know osm-carto from inside to some degree. We even don't know exactly what is the usecase now - is it still a map for the mappers to be used as a way of checking your input or just a general one? We already have another general one, much less detailed (MapQuest Open), which is probably more eye-pleasing because of this, so I guess default should be more working assistance, but the feel is it's not so much. That said, you really shouldn't focus too much on the default map style. Stop puting it on a pedestal, there are plenty of other high-quality styles, and one size does not fit all. The fact that anyone can make his own style (and that the data is rich enough to warrant it) is one of OSM's strenghts. I wish we could emphasize other syles more on osm.org. I'm happy the data can be used in many places and for different purposes, but where is the map for the mappers - people wanting to see their precious input? How can people find it? I think problems with rendering as innocent thing as a fountain (how much bloat would it be if we render it?) tells something about what is still missing. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 17.05.2015 23:47, Simon Poole napisał(a): Showing your favourite objects on a map with uMap is reasonably easy and in the mean time something fairly popular even with people without a deep technical background. I've heard about it lately and I like it. Great tool, but - how one could know it exists at all? I think the mission will be accomplished once we have it integrated with OSM website somehow, just like we did with routing: there were already a few routing services using our data, so we may not care, but for average user they were just not here. And so is uMap. I like decentralized nature of OSM very much, but lack of connections (even inside the project) makes it inefficient and IMO it doesn't have to be like this. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
On 5/17/2015 3:14 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: I have no idea how you'd apply P2P to map style design. It sounds like you; ve heard of a great technology, and want to apply it to every problem without fully understanding the technology and/or the problem. I even used it once on OSM - it was called Tiles@home. Tiles@home was not a P2P map style, it was kept in SVN and used a distributed rendering system. Distributed rendering is still used, primarily by larger scale operations. Craigslist distributes their pre-rendering workload among a large number of machines, and I believe MapBox did the same when they were pre-rendering. I am not certain of the details after this long, but I don't think the Tiles@home rendering was P2P either - simply distributed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
On 17/05/2015, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote: 1. We should have some tools to let people render their own style, no matter how crazy. It's possible of course from the technical point of view (the data and tools are available and the licenses are open), but that is far too complicated for average Joe or Jane. Did you even try the existing tools ? Tilemilll is very userfriendly, and if Joe or Jane has trouble setting it up, they can just use the MapBox instance. There's very little skill needed to start tweaking an existing style, and the learning curve is IMHO not too steep, considering how intrinsically complicated the task is. I suspect kind of P2P tools would be great, but have no clear ideas about it. I have no idea how you'd apply P2P to map style design. It sounds like you; ve heard of a great technology, and want to apply it to every problem without fully understanding the technology and/or the problem. 2. But default map style is still underused. Reluctance to show everything on merits that it's impossible, because it should be a mess, probably does not take into account that some features may be rendered only on highest zoom levels. I assure you the osm-carto devs are competent and take those things into account. It's a design decision, they want the map to be pretty as well, not just a show-everything endeavour. They've also stoped rendering some things that they felt didn't match the usecase. Nevertheless, they managed to continually increase the data density, while making the style more eye-pleasing. Congrats to them. That said, you really shouldn't focus too much on the default map style. Stop puting it on a pedestal, there are plenty of other high-quality styles, and one size does not fit all. The fact that anyone can make his own style (and that the data is rich enough to warrant it) is one of OSM's strenghts. I wish we could emphasize other syles more on osm.org. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
W dniu 16.05.2015 1:57, Rob Nickerson napisał(a): The people behind the default map render have put a lot of work in to trying to develop a map style which works well for the average OSM mapper. To have anyone come along and add their own styling for any map feature they like would be chaos. We'd end up in a map style edit war!! Also even if a mapper found a style and colour that worked for the default OpenStreetMap render, it wouldn't work with other map styles (Humanitarian, MapQuest, etc..). I also don't think we should let anybody do anything on default map, however the general idea is good if we split the problem: 1. We should have some tools to let people render their own style, no matter how crazy. It's possible of course from the technical point of view (the data and tools are available and the licenses are open), but that is far too complicated for average Joe or Jane. I suspect kind of P2P tools would be great, but have no clear ideas about it. The positive output would be more people can edit map style and we have more experts for working with default style. 2. But default map style is still underused. Reluctance to show everything on merits that it's impossible, because it should be a mess, probably does not take into account that some features may be rendered only on highest zoom levels. For example we have trash cans and benches from the latest version of osm-carto and that is not a problem, because they are rendered on z=19! I know you'd love to have a map that renders everything but you will not get that from OpenStreetMap. As all the data is available there is nothing to stop you setting up your own map renderer and doing as you please (although good luck making it look anything other than a mess). As I said in 1. - for nerds it's not a problem at all, but for the most of OSM mappers (see the long tail thread) that is not the option until they have as easy to use tools as iD for editing. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
Of course the editors don't render EVERYTHING. Depending on the kind of work I want to focus on, I'm switching MapCSS styles and filters on and off in JOSM all the time. bicycle routes walking itineraries public transport routes addresses turn lanes traffic signs HOT validation speed limits It's impossible to show everything at the same time both in renderings and in the editors. Especially the more abstract stuff represented by relations. Polyglot 2015-05-16 2:08 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com: On 16 May 2015 at 00:57, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: when a mapper invents something new, they can add tags for colour, opacity, line colour, line width, line opacity - for areas and similar attributes for lines and points (colour, opacity, size etc.) and obviously tags for name and description etc. What do people think to this ? The people behind the default map render have put a lot of work in to trying to develop a map style which works well for the average OSM mapper. To have anyone come along and add their own styling for any map feature they like would be chaos. We'd end up in a map style edit war!! Also even if a mapper found a style and colour that worked for the default OpenStreetMap render, it wouldn't work with other map styles (Humanitarian, MapQuest, etc..). I'm talking ADDITIONAL tags - so the other map styles wouldn't be affected. I'm also talking temporary tags - to be removed by the default map renderers after they've created a 'proper' render style for the object. Having said that, I wouldn't object if they became a feature of the db - for a 'natural map'. I'm sure that would result in a bizarre map - likely 'suitable' for an art gallery ! I know you'd love to have a map that renders everything but you will not get that from OpenStreetMap. As all the data is available there is nothing to stop you setting up your own map renderer and doing as you please (although good luck making it look anything other than a mess). I'm sure folks will be happy to point you in the direction of guides for setting that up. Perhaps look at MapBox Studio first. All the map editors (iD etc.) render everything in a way. And yes, I'm all in favour of a map CAPABLE of showing everything yet allowing the viewer to choose what's not shown. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
when a mapper invents something new, they can add tags for colour, opacity, line colour, line width, line opacity - for areas and similar attributes for lines and points (colour, opacity, size etc.) and obviously tags for name and description etc. What do people think to this ? The people behind the default map render have put a lot of work in to trying to develop a map style which works well for the average OSM mapper. To have anyone come along and add their own styling for any map feature they like would be chaos. We'd end up in a map style edit war!! Also even if a mapper found a style and colour that worked for the default OpenStreetMap render, it wouldn't work with other map styles (Humanitarian, MapQuest, etc..). I know you'd love to have a map that renders everything but you will not get that from OpenStreetMap. As all the data is available there is nothing to stop you setting up your own map renderer and doing as you please (although good luck making it look anything other than a mess). I'm sure folks will be happy to point you in the direction of guides for setting that up. Perhaps look at MapBox Studio first. Regards, Rob ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging FOR the renderer
On 16 May 2015 at 00:57, Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com wrote: when a mapper invents something new, they can add tags for colour, opacity, line colour, line width, line opacity - for areas and similar attributes for lines and points (colour, opacity, size etc.) and obviously tags for name and description etc. What do people think to this ? The people behind the default map render have put a lot of work in to trying to develop a map style which works well for the average OSM mapper. To have anyone come along and add their own styling for any map feature they like would be chaos. We'd end up in a map style edit war!! Also even if a mapper found a style and colour that worked for the default OpenStreetMap render, it wouldn't work with other map styles (Humanitarian, MapQuest, etc..). I'm talking ADDITIONAL tags - so the other map styles wouldn't be affected. I'm also talking temporary tags - to be removed by the default map renderers after they've created a 'proper' render style for the object. Having said that, I wouldn't object if they became a feature of the db - for a 'natural map'. I'm sure that would result in a bizarre map - likely 'suitable' for an art gallery ! I know you'd love to have a map that renders everything but you will not get that from OpenStreetMap. As all the data is available there is nothing to stop you setting up your own map renderer and doing as you please (although good luck making it look anything other than a mess). I'm sure folks will be happy to point you in the direction of guides for setting that up. Perhaps look at MapBox Studio first. All the map editors (iD etc.) render everything in a way. And yes, I'm all in favour of a map CAPABLE of showing everything yet allowing the viewer to choose what's not shown. -- Mike. @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland via *the area's premier website - * *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property pets* TCs https://sites.google.com/site/pmailkeey/e-mail ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
