Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hello Melissa, On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:30:40 -0800 GMT (27/10/2003, 00:30 +0700 GMT), Melissa Reese wrote: I would not recommend this product to my parents or other non-geeks, On the other hand...I did get my mother - who is impressively non-computer literate - to use TB!. I did this *because* of her lack of geekiness, as she was constantly infecting her machine with viruses and worms with the help of OE! :-) My mother, when she was fed up with AOL/Germany's customer service, wanted another email address. But she didn't want OL/OE to pop-check it, because she didn't want to be vulnerable to viruses. So TB is what she uses for that account; she uses no geeky features, no special templates, just out-of-the-box. (She is also back to AOL for some reason and therefore now has two email addresses. But she uses TB for the other one without difficulties.) Another example is my prof, who changed from Eudora Pro to TB (and paid for it) because there was one single feature missing in Eudora, and he hasn't looked back since. And he is also a non-geek: when I tried to explain filters and folders to him, he just said he won't need that. This is what fascinates me about TB: it appeals to geeks and non-geeks alike. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. I tested this program in the presence of a certified child labourer, and she went crazy over it. - Wanda Sloan in a software review for an icon-generating program. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.01.7 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 128MB RAM Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hello, Anthony: Thank you for this. Your message was valuable, even for somebody who has used the Bat for several years. Your remind me that it would be a mistake to recommend it to family members (who would rely on me for support) and you have also reminded me of the importance of keeping HTML turned off. Incidentally, after building dozens and dozens of filters, I finally gave up and installed a challenge and response email filtering system. Not everybody likes that, but I am careful to create a permission for every personal contact who receives my business card. Perhaps you will develop an economical way to create all the necessary filtering for keeping spam out of your inbox. I will eventually convert to Bayesian filtering. But there too, I notice quite a few messages indicating that route is not as smooth as people might wish. With best wishes, David Austen Sunday, October 26, 2003, 7:01:14 AM, you wrote: AGA After two days of trying it out, I decided to purchase The Bat! AGA The Bat will replace Outlook Express as my primary e-mail client. AGA The reasons why I bought it: AGA 1. Spam relief AGA The ability to set filters that look at message headers has AGA _vastly_ improved my filtering of spam. Almost all the spam I AGA receive has a Content-type of multipart/alternative or AGA text/html, whereas almost all the legitimate e-mail I receive AGA has a content-type of plain text, or something else. By AGA filtering on this one field, I manage to separate spam from real AGA e-mail with at least 95% accuracy. On Outlook Express, even with AGA several filters (on keywords, message size, and so on), only AGA about 20% of spam was correctly identified. AGA I still read the headers of spam and delete it by hand, but AGA having it correctly sorted speeds this up considerably, since AGA legit e-mail and spam are less likely to be mixed together. AGA 2. No HTML AGA The Bat lets me turn off HTML support. Outlook Express doesn't. AGA By not interpreting HTML, I can avoid any virus risks or stupid AGA Javascript or other problems associated with HTML. Virtually AGA nobody sends me e-mail in HTML, anyway, except for spammers, and AGA a handful of correspondents who leave OE defaults as they are. AGA 3. Quick raw message viewing AGA I don't run anti-virus or anti-spam software on my systems, for AGA various reasons. Instead, I examine the raw text of suspicious AGA messages before opening them. This can be done on OE (Properties AGA | Details | Message Source on a message), but it's awkward. I AGA can do this rapidly with F9 on The Bat and quickly see if there AGA is any suspicious content in the message. AGA 4. Better control overall AGA The Bat has a lot more options for control and sending of e-mail, AGA and I like to be able to adjust everything to my liking. AGA What I lost in going to The Bat: AGA 1. PGP support AGA PGP support for Outlook Express with PGP 8.x works great. It AGA hardly works at all with The Bat. No sense in having twenty AGA different options for PGP support if almost none of them work AGA correctly. What's wrong with just having buttons like OE? This AGA is not a blocking issue for me, as I can still send and receive AGA PGP with OE-equivalent functionality by hand, but I can imagine AGA that some potential customers would have to pass on the product AGA for this reason. AGA 2. Too many bugs AGA The product crashed at least three dozen times while I was trying AGA to tidy up folders imported from OE. On several occasions, it AGA locked the current window, and killing the Bat process did not AGA release the window--I had to log off and log on again. These AGA bugs seemed limited to that clean-up activity, but if I start AGA getting bugs in everyday use of the product, it's going to go AGA right out the window. There is no excuse for _any_ bugs in a AGA commercial product. AGA Also, if PGP Keys is running concurrently with The Bat, some AGA operations in The Bat appear to crash the PGP SDK service. This AGA isn't acceptable, either. AGA 3. Sparse documentation AGA I'm not one to depend a great deal on documentation, but the AGA online help for The Bat is among the sparsest I've ever seen, and AGA it's a complex product. I can usually figure out things on my AGA own, but some things just have to be documented, and from what AGA I've seen, they often are not. This isn't a blocking issue for AGA me, since there are other ways to find out how to do things (such AGA as this mailing list), but it slows adoption of the product. AGA Anyway ... I couldn't tell if a personal license was sufficient AGA for me (I'm a sole proprietorship, so I use e-mail for both AGA business and personal stuff), so I got the commercial license. AGA Since I'm currently broke, ยค45 was a lot to cough up, but I don't AGA use software that isn't free without paying for it. AGA I would not recommend this product to my parents or other AGA non-geeks, but to people with a fair
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hello Anthony, Sunday, October 26, 2003, 13:30, you wrote: AGA After two days of trying it out, I decided to purchase The Bat! The Bat AGA will replace Outlook Express as my primary e-mail client. AGA The reasons why I bought it: AGA 1. Spam relief AGA The ability to set filters that look at message headers has _vastly_ AGA improved my filtering of spam. Almost all the spam I receive has a AGA Content-type of multipart/alternative or text/html, whereas almost all the AGA legitimate e-mail I receive has a content-type of plain text, or AGA something else. By filtering on this one field, I manage to separate AGA spam from real e-mail with at least 95% accuracy. On Outlook Express, AGA even with several filters (on keywords, message size, and so on), only AGA about 20% of spam was correctly identified. AGA I still read the headers of spam and delete it by hand, but having it AGA correctly sorted speeds this up considerably, since legit e-mail and AGA spam are less likely to be mixed together. snip- AGA 2. Too many bugs AGA The product crashed at least three dozen times while I was trying to AGA tidy up folders imported from OE. On several occasions, it locked the AGA current window, and killing the Bat process did not release the AGA window--I had to log off and log on again. These bugs seemed limited to AGA that clean-up activity, but if I start getting bugs in everyday use of AGA the product, it's going to go right out the window. There is no excuse AGA for _any_ bugs in a commercial product. -snip- AGA 3. Sparse documentation AGA I'm not one to depend a great deal on documentation, but the online help AGA for The Bat is among the sparsest I've ever seen, and it's a complex AGA product. I can usually figure out things on my own, but some things AGA just have to be documented, and from what I've seen, they often are not. AGA This isn't a blocking issue for me, since there are other ways to find AGA out how to do things (such as this mailing list), but it slows adoption AGA of the product. Filtering: Have you considered another filtering method such as the BayestIt! plugin that you can find here: http://klirik.narod.ru/usefuls/bayesiteng.htm I have used it for a couple of weeks and find it very easy to set up and it is amazingly effective. It is a relief not to have to write and re-write filtering rules to keeps up with the bad guys. Bugs: That is highly unusual, and this is generally not even an issue even on the betas. I have used TheBat! for years and it has never crashed on me and I have never lost as much as a single message. Maybe you should set the account properties to compress all folders at exit? Documentation: The help-file is extensive, but it is not always logical where the information is hidden. Have you found the menu navigator button on the title bar to the left of the minimize button? That can help you to find what you are looking for. Another place for help is the forum on RitLabs website. -- Best regards, Mogens --- Using The Bat! v2.01.7 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 --- Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Sunday, October 26, 2003, 1:01:14 PM, Anthony wrote: AGA There is no excuse for _any_ bugs in a commercial product. This statement is naive and ignores the current state of the art in software development. It is impossible to make a software product that meets the huge and complex (sometimes even conflicting) user requirements while keeping it affordable and delivered on time. Frank -- Best regards, Frank J de Bruin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Melissa Reese, [MR] wrote: MR On the other hand...I did get my mother - who is impressively MR non-computer literate - to use TB!. ... MR ... Now and then, she even surprises me with a new trick that she MR has discovered on her own. Each time she learns about a new and MR useful TB! feature, she's very happy that she made the switch from MR OE (in addition to remaining virus-free since the switch over a year MR ago). It's in the genes so no fair. ;) BTW, are my signatures verifying OK since getting my public key update, i.e., the one with the newly generated encrypting subkey? -- -= allie_M =- | List Moderator PGPKeys: http://www.ac-martin.com/pgpkeys.html Using TB! v2.01.7 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hi Darrin, on Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:51:47 -0800GMT (26.10.03, 16:51 +0100GMT here), you wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : JM Good luck! I found two new features just this morning! D lol! I think I say that about every day. I always find features that I D didnt know were there. I have been using The Bat! for almost three years now, and it still won't stop! Just today I discovered a new little one, not strongly needed but neat and closer to my personal preference. :-)) -- Cheers Peter 'Yield to temptation. It may not come your way again.' Oscar Wilde Winamp currently playing: Randy Newman - Mama Told Me Not To Come pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Sunday, October 26, 2003, 6:01:14 AM, you wrote: 3. Sparse documentation I'm not one to depend a great deal on documentation, but the online help for The Bat is among the sparsest I've ever seen, and it's a complex product. I can usually figure out things on my own, That's good news, Anthony! Welcome to The Bat! Club! You have no idea how poorly documented The Bat! is! because that hasn't been documented, either! Years from now, maybe even decades, you'll *still* be discovering features that you had no idea were even there! That's just part of the fun and *excitement* of using The Bat! You really don't even have to wait for the nice folks at Ritlabs to publish a new version. Nuh uh. You can pretty much have a new version almost every single day, just by tinkering around a little! Okay, I'm kidding around a little. It *is* poorly documented, but it's still the *best* piece of e-mail software out there, and you can forget all about going back to OE. It's much too late for that. The trap has already been set. You'll stick with The Bat!, if only to find that next new feature you don't even know is there! Good luck! I found two new features just this morning! -- Best regards, Jack Using The Bat! 2.01.3 on Windows 5.1 (2600) Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Darrin- Sunday, October 26, 2003, 7:51:47 AM, you wrote: D lol! I think I say that about every day. I always find features that I D didnt know were there. Ditto here, although I usually find features because of discussion on this list. I'll take tbudl over documentation any day! -- -Mark Wieder Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2 Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hello Anthony, Sunday, October 26, 2003, 2:01:14 PM, you wrote: AGA 1. PGP support AGA PGP support for Outlook Express with PGP 8.x works great. It hardly AGA works at all with The Bat. This is quite strange to hear. From my experience, it's quite contrary :-) AGA No sense in having twenty different options for PGP support if AGA almost none of them work correctly. Please specify. There are some minor problems (like encryption when there are some invalid/expired keys, which should be fixed), but it works good in general, as far as I understand... AGA What's wrong with just having buttons like OE? There will be buttons. But, frankly, I personally did not feel any real need for them - everything is done automatically at my system. :-) AGA 2. Too many bugs AGA The product crashed at least three dozen times while I was trying to AGA tidy up folders imported from OE. This is really strange and rare case. Because OE's folder structure is not documented, some messages could be imported in a strange way that could cause some internal conflicts. But it is better to have detailed description of those crashes. I would also recommend to check RAM for errors when time allows because it looks like becoming a very common problem nowadays... AGA There is no excuse for _any_ bugs in a commercial product. I agree. But you know what the reality is... AGA Also, if PGP Keys is running concurrently with The Bat, some operations AGA in The Bat appear to crash the PGP SDK service. This isn't acceptable, AGA either. That happened once for me, but it was several months ago and I could not see the connection with The Bat! Now, I have a clue an will try to make more research on this subject. AGA 3. Sparse documentation AGA I'm not one to depend a great deal on documentation, but the online help AGA for The Bat is among the sparsest I've ever seen, and it's a complex AGA product. I can usually figure out things on my own, but some things AGA just have to be documented, and from what I've seen, they often are not. Such as... ? :-) Thank you for your input and we'll see how the development go in the next few months. I hope, nobody will get disappointed :-) -- Cheers! Stefan pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Melissa Reese, [MR] wrote: BTW, are my signatures verifying OK since getting my public key update, i.e., the one with the newly generated encrypting subkey? MR They're fine here. :-) Good. I was wondering if I'd need to generate a brand new key pair. -- -= allie_M =- | List Moderator PGPKeys: http://www.ac-martin.com/pgpkeys.html Using TB! v2.01.7 on WinXP Pro (SP1) pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Purchased the Bat!
Hello Michael, I apologize if this has been previously discussed (if so, please direct me to the appropriate thread and I'll look it up), but is there a way to filter those strings of random letters? I didn't even know how to describe the problem before reading your description above. I would try POPFile (http://popfile.sourceforge.net/) before trying to set up any filter. POPFile is free. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.01.3 Winamp OFF: Current version is 2.01.3 | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
