Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
As another rant: we old farts know which window manager we want to use. But for newer users, there might be a chance to find something cool before they get totally fossilized. And secondary rant: X is a failure, in that there is a *choice* of window managers, but so many of them haven't been really upgraded and thus are "useless" because they don't support modern hints. It looks like a very interesting line to die on.
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 02:33:34AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 09:42:47AM -0400, Bryan Steele wrote: > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 09:17:00AM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > > > On Mon 2023.05.15 at 10:41 +0200, Matthieu Herrb wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:26:41AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote: > > > > > Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window > > > > > managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around > > > > > without restarting X and/or custom window manager config. > > > > > > > > > > cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult. > > > > > Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Feedback? OK? > > > > > > > > Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really > > > > too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints. > > > > > > > > People still using it should switch to cwm or maybe ctwm from ports > > > > (to keep the same configurarion system), or someone should step up to > > > > maintain it and enhance it with exwmh support. (but this is somehow > > > > just wasting time imho). > > I don't know anything about twm, so I'll leave that to others. > > > > > > > > > Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window > > > > managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in > > > > Xenocara) > > > > > > I might argue the opposite, to remove cwm from fvwm and twm restart > > > menus, if > > > this inconsistency is a real concern. The entries in fvwm/twm are in the > > > (shipped) example config files, where-as below it is, well, there for > > > good with > > > no user choice. Heck, how often to do people even use this restart wm to > > > another WM outside of playing around? Most window managers handle restarts > > > differently, regardless of what ICCCM/EWMH says) and even then, crossing > > > window > > > managers like this introduces inconsistencies. It's fine for playing > > > around I > > > suppose, but is it really a demanded "workflow"? > > It is convenient for testing because you keep all your windows and don't > have to login out and in again; that's about it for me. I have to side with kn on this. Actually, it would be cool if ywe could register more wm and switch on runtimes (a bit like @shell ?)
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
I'm not an OpenBSD developer but, allow me to share my opinion about this, please. On May 15 2023, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Mon 2023.05.15 at 10:41 +0200, Matthieu Herrb wrote: > > Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really > > too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints. For full support for ICCCM/EWMH you already have that modern, updated and maintained version of fvwm you have in base :-). > > > > People still using it ... I started using unix-like systems in 2006, I guess that *decades* before twm was already short for daily desktop use. But twm has been always there as part of the default X installation on any unix-like system. Perhaps because its simplicity is precisely what makes twm useful as a rescue option? This is, at least, the use I've made of twm along all these years. As a side note. Even being so simple, unlike the other two WMs in base, twm supports utf-8. This is now in part dysfunctional since you removed half of the bitmap fixed "miscellaneous" fonts, which also affects fvwm2 and fvwm3 ports. > > > > Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window > > managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in > > Xenocara) > > I might argue the opposite, to remove cwm from fvwm and twm restart menus, if > this inconsistency is a real concern. The entries in fvwm/twm are in the > (shipped) example config files, where-as below it is, well, there for good > with > no user choice. Heck, how often to do people even use this restart wm to > another WM outside of playing around? Most window managers handle restarts > differently, regardless of what ICCCM/EWMH says) and even then, crossing > window > managers like this introduces inconsistencies. It's fine for playing around I > suppose, but is it really a demanded "workflow"? > > > > > > > PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and > > > twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running); > > > do we want to keep those default-broken entries around? > > I'd support removing them. In my experience, restarting from one window manager to another has *never* worked fine. -- Walter
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 09:42:47AM -0400, Bryan Steele wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 09:17:00AM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > > On Mon 2023.05.15 at 10:41 +0200, Matthieu Herrb wrote: > > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:26:41AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote: > > > > Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window > > > > managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around > > > > without restarting X and/or custom window manager config. > > > > > > > > cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult. > > > > Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between > > > > them. > > > > > > > > Feedback? OK? > > > > > > Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really > > > too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints. > > > > > > People still using it should switch to cwm or maybe ctwm from ports > > > (to keep the same configurarion system), or someone should step up to > > > maintain it and enhance it with exwmh support. (but this is somehow > > > just wasting time imho). I don't know anything about twm, so I'll leave that to others. > > > > > > Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window > > > managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in > > > Xenocara) > > > > I might argue the opposite, to remove cwm from fvwm and twm restart menus, > > if > > this inconsistency is a real concern. The entries in fvwm/twm are in the > > (shipped) example config files, where-as below it is, well, there for good > > with > > no user choice. Heck, how often to do people even use this restart wm to > > another WM outside of playing around? Most window managers handle restarts > > differently, regardless of what ICCCM/EWMH says) and even then, crossing > > window > > managers like this introduces inconsistencies. It's fine for playing around > > I > > suppose, but is it really a demanded "workflow"? It is convenient for testing because you keep all your windows and don't have to login out and in again; that's about it for me. > > > > PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and > > > > twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running); > > > > do we want to keep those default-broken entries around? > > > > I'd support removing them. > > +1 > > I don't think hardcoding window managers into cwm makes sense. I don't > think anyone is actually switching around WMs at runtime like this. Except for cwm itself, since that's how you reload the cwmrc(5). No idea how fvwm(1) handles config reload and/or state across restart. > If the point is for new users to have an example that provides a list > of alternative WMs, perhaps this is a man page issue and they should > be added to "SEE ALSO" sections. Sure, these can't hurt. > > -Bryan. > I prefer consistency across base window managers, so if we don't want users to hop around by default, here's a tentative diff to remove foreign window managers from fvwm. Lef click -> Root Menu -> (Re)Start no lists xterm and fvm itself, the latter results in an appearent restart and a new FvwmPager process whilst 'fvwm -s' remains on the same PID (I don't use fvwm). There are multiple configs, I changed all containing cwm or twm. So something like this? Not touching twm (assuming it goes away) or cwm (needs itself for reload). Index: sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc === RCS file: /cvs/xenocara/app/fvwm/sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc,v retrieving revision 1.2 diff -u -p -r1.2 system.fvwm2rc --- sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc15 Aug 2019 16:15:04 - 1.2 +++ sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc16 May 2023 02:31:40 - @@ -196,13 +196,6 @@ AddToMenu Quit-Verify "Really Quit Fvwm + "Restart Fvwm2" Restart fvwm2 + "Restart Fvwm" Restart fvwm + "" Nop -+ "Start twm" Restart twm -+ "Start ctwm"Restart ctwm -+ "Start tvtwm" Restart tvtwm -+ "Start vtwm"Restart vtwm -+ "Start mwm" Restart mwm -+ "Start olwm"Restart /usr/openwin/bin/olwm -+ "" Nop + "Start dummy" Restart xterm + "" Nop + "No, Don't Quit"Nop Index: sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc-sample-1 === RCS file: /cvs/xenocara/app/fvwm/sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc-sample-1,v retrieving revision 1.1.1.1 diff -u -p -r1.1.1.1 system.fvwm2rc-sample-1 --- sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc-sample-1 26 Nov 2006 10:53:57 - 1.1.1.1 +++ sample.fvwmrc/system.fvwm2rc-sample-1 16 May 2023 02:21:06 - @@
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 09:17:00AM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Mon 2023.05.15 at 10:41 +0200, Matthieu Herrb wrote: > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:26:41AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote: > > > Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window > > > managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around > > > without restarting X and/or custom window manager config. > > > > > > cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult. > > > Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between > > > them. > > > > > > Feedback? OK? > > > > Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really > > too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints. > > > > People still using it should switch to cwm or maybe ctwm from ports > > (to keep the same configurarion system), or someone should step up to > > maintain it and enhance it with exwmh support. (but this is somehow > > just wasting time imho). > > > > Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window > > managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in > > Xenocara) > > I might argue the opposite, to remove cwm from fvwm and twm restart menus, if > this inconsistency is a real concern. The entries in fvwm/twm are in the > (shipped) example config files, where-as below it is, well, there for good > with > no user choice. Heck, how often to do people even use this restart wm to > another WM outside of playing around? Most window managers handle restarts > differently, regardless of what ICCCM/EWMH says) and even then, crossing > window > managers like this introduces inconsistencies. It's fine for playing around I > suppose, but is it really a demanded "workflow"? > > > > > > > PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and > > > twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running); > > > do we want to keep those default-broken entries around? > > I'd support removing them. +1 I don't think hardcoding window managers into cwm makes sense. I don't think anyone is actually switching around WMs at runtime like this. If the point is for new users to have an example that provides a list of alternative WMs, perhaps this is a man page issue and they should be added to "SEE ALSO" sections. -Bryan.
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
On Mon 2023.05.15 at 10:41 +0200, Matthieu Herrb wrote: > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:26:41AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote: > > Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window > > managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around > > without restarting X and/or custom window manager config. > > > > cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult. > > Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between > > them. > > > > Feedback? OK? > > Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really > too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints. > > People still using it should switch to cwm or maybe ctwm from ports > (to keep the same configurarion system), or someone should step up to > maintain it and enhance it with exwmh support. (but this is somehow > just wasting time imho). > > Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window > managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in > Xenocara) I might argue the opposite, to remove cwm from fvwm and twm restart menus, if this inconsistency is a real concern. The entries in fvwm/twm are in the (shipped) example config files, where-as below it is, well, there for good with no user choice. Heck, how often to do people even use this restart wm to another WM outside of playing around? Most window managers handle restarts differently, regardless of what ICCCM/EWMH says) and even then, crossing window managers like this introduces inconsistencies. It's fine for playing around I suppose, but is it really a demanded "workflow"? > > > > PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and > > twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running); > > do we want to keep those default-broken entries around? I'd support removing them.
Re: cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:26:41AM +, Klemens Nanni wrote:
> Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window
> managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around
> without restarting X and/or custom window manager config.
>
> cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult.
> Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between
> them.
>
> Feedback? OK?
Last year I mentionned that I think we should retire twm. It's really
too old and missing support for the modern window managers hints.
People still using it should switch to cwm or maybe ctwm from ports
(to keep the same configurarion system), or someone should step up to
maintain it and enhance it with exwmh support. (but this is somehow
just wasting time imho).
Otherwise ok to add this and fix the other WM menus for other window
managers (those parts of the configs are already local changes in
Xenocara)
>
> PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and
> twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running);
> do we want to keep those default-broken entries around?
>
> Index: conf.c
> ===
> RCS file: /cvs/xenocara/app/cwm/conf.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.255
> diff -u -p -r1.255 conf.c
> --- conf.c26 Feb 2022 15:19:18 - 1.255
> +++ conf.c15 May 2023 06:11:01 -
> @@ -307,6 +307,8 @@ conf_init(struct conf *c)
> conf_cmd_add(c, "lock", "xlock");
> conf_cmd_add(c, "term", "xterm");
> conf_wm_add(c, "cwm", "cwm");
> + conf_wm_add(c, "fvwm", "fvwm");
> + conf_wm_add(c, "twm", "twm");
>
> c->font = xstrdup("sans-serif:pixelsize=14:bold");
> c->wmname = xstrdup("CWM");
>
--
Matthieu Herrb
cwm: add fvwm and tvm as default wm entries
Both fvwm(1) and twm(1) have a restart menu that contains other window
managers by default, which is useful if you want to switch around
without restarting X and/or custom window manager config.
cwm(1) only offers to restart into itself by deafult.
Add the other two we ship by default so users can round trip between
them.
Feedback? OK?
PS: fwvm and twm menus more programs we don't ship, e.g. "wm2", and
twm dies when failing to execute them (fvwm and cwm keeps running);
do we want to keep those default-broken entries around?
Index: conf.c
===
RCS file: /cvs/xenocara/app/cwm/conf.c,v
retrieving revision 1.255
diff -u -p -r1.255 conf.c
--- conf.c 26 Feb 2022 15:19:18 - 1.255
+++ conf.c 15 May 2023 06:11:01 -
@@ -307,6 +307,8 @@ conf_init(struct conf *c)
conf_cmd_add(c, "lock", "xlock");
conf_cmd_add(c, "term", "xterm");
conf_wm_add(c, "cwm", "cwm");
+ conf_wm_add(c, "fvwm", "fvwm");
+ conf_wm_add(c, "twm", "twm");
c->font = xstrdup("sans-serif:pixelsize=14:bold");
c->wmname = xstrdup("CWM");
