[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[@TiddlyTweeter]

The irony is if I "Up-Vote" that comment I will fall into its fallout.

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 16:46:36 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>
> It will also be a short era. Once the AI start writing code, there will be 
> no need for us coffee-fied wetware interfaces.
>
> So enjoy the music while you may.
>
> -- Mark 
>
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 4:58:01 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> I should write sometime about how "software" can become more like music 
>> playing. I.e. you have a vast system of "instruments" in play, each of 
>> which has a history, a way of working. 
>>
>> The art is in the mastery, at which level you can construct the new, and 
>> not repeat.
>>
>> Software is still fairly young. It is fairly crude. But the twin honing 
>> of both the "instrument" (code blocks) and intent of the user (player) is 
>> interesting and getting a bit clearer and useful without having to 
>> re-design the "instrument" every time.
>>
>> Josiah
>>
>> On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 13:21:42 UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> A friendly rant.
>>>
>>> In any given structure, there tends to be an atomic smallest unit. In 
>>> tiddlywiki this is the tiddler. This unit is so practical we tend to 
>>> operate in this domain. In databases the minimum unit is a record, and 
>>> people have to build larger structures such as client records (plural) to 
>>> get any meaningful work done. This is not the case, in tiddlywiki. 
>>>
>>> Because the tiddler title must be unique, you always have a unique key 
>>> to reference the smallest unit. This means you do not need to worry about 
>>> unique keys.
>>>
>>> If you want larger structures, especialy multiple multiline text fields 
>>> you need to build them. I think this only comes as a supprise to people 
>>> because the smallest unit is so useful.
>>>
>>> Here are a few ways to extend a tiddler
>>> Use the tiddler to tag a set of tiddlers
>>> Transclude other tiddlers
>>> Make "subtiddlers" such as tiddlername/subtiddler name
>>> Create a chain of tiddlers, or list of tiddlers
>>> Use datatiddlers
>>>
>>> For example if you have multiple quotes for fred and others, do new here 
>>> and call the tiddler quote, clone this to quote 1 and it to will be tagged 
>>> fred. Do as many as you want, now you want quotes from Wilma, clone one of 
>>> freds quotes, remove the fred tag and add wilma tag, now clone that for 
>>> multiple wilma quotes. Here you do not care about the quote titles Only 
>>> that the are unique and tagged with the quotee.
>>>
>>> There is I believe no structure you can not build with tiddlywiki. And 
>>> that is even before using alternate tag structures and custom fields.
>>>
>>> The universe has being fine built by quarks, so to is tiddlywiki built 
>>> on tidders.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

It will also be a short era. Once the AI start writing code, there will be 
no need for us coffee-fied wetware interfaces.

So enjoy the music while you may.

-- Mark 

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 4:58:01 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> I should write sometime about how "software" can become more like music 
> playing. I.e. you have a vast system of "instruments" in play, each of 
> which has a history, a way of working. 
>
> The art is in the mastery, at which level you can construct the new, and 
> not repeat.
>
> Software is still fairly young. It is fairly crude. But the twin honing of 
> both the "instrument" (code blocks) and intent of the user (player) is 
> interesting and getting a bit clearer and useful without having to 
> re-design the "instrument" every time.
>
> Josiah
>
> On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 13:21:42 UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> A friendly rant.
>>
>> In any given structure, there tends to be an atomic smallest unit. In 
>> tiddlywiki this is the tiddler. This unit is so practical we tend to 
>> operate in this domain. In databases the minimum unit is a record, and 
>> people have to build larger structures such as client records (plural) to 
>> get any meaningful work done. This is not the case, in tiddlywiki. 
>>
>> Because the tiddler title must be unique, you always have a unique key to 
>> reference the smallest unit. This means you do not need to worry about 
>> unique keys.
>>
>> If you want larger structures, especialy multiple multiline text fields 
>> you need to build them. I think this only comes as a supprise to people 
>> because the smallest unit is so useful.
>>
>> Here are a few ways to extend a tiddler
>> Use the tiddler to tag a set of tiddlers
>> Transclude other tiddlers
>> Make "subtiddlers" such as tiddlername/subtiddler name
>> Create a chain of tiddlers, or list of tiddlers
>> Use datatiddlers
>>
>> For example if you have multiple quotes for fred and others, do new here 
>> and call the tiddler quote, clone this to quote 1 and it to will be tagged 
>> fred. Do as many as you want, now you want quotes from Wilma, clone one of 
>> freds quotes, remove the fred tag and add wilma tag, now clone that for 
>> multiple wilma quotes. Here you do not care about the quote titles Only 
>> that the are unique and tagged with the quotee.
>>
>> There is I believe no structure you can not build with tiddlywiki. And 
>> that is even before using alternate tag structures and custom fields.
>>
>> The universe has being fine built by quarks, so to is tiddlywiki built on 
>> tidders.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tony
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I should write sometime about how "software" can become more like music 
playing. I.e. you have a vast system of "instruments" in play, each of 
which has a history, a way of working. 

The art is in the mastery, at which level you can construct the new, and 
not repeat.

Software is still fairly young. It is fairly crude. But the twin honing of 
both the "instrument" (code blocks) and intent of the user (player) is 
interesting and getting a bit clearer and useful without having to 
re-design the "instrument" every time.

Josiah

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 13:21:42 UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> A friendly rant.
>
> In any given structure, there tends to be an atomic smallest unit. In 
> tiddlywiki this is the tiddler. This unit is so practical we tend to 
> operate in this domain. In databases the minimum unit is a record, and 
> people have to build larger structures such as client records (plural) to 
> get any meaningful work done. This is not the case, in tiddlywiki. 
>
> Because the tiddler title must be unique, you always have a unique key to 
> reference the smallest unit. This means you do not need to worry about 
> unique keys.
>
> If you want larger structures, especialy multiple multiline text fields 
> you need to build them. I think this only comes as a supprise to people 
> because the smallest unit is so useful.
>
> Here are a few ways to extend a tiddler
> Use the tiddler to tag a set of tiddlers
> Transclude other tiddlers
> Make "subtiddlers" such as tiddlername/subtiddler name
> Create a chain of tiddlers, or list of tiddlers
> Use datatiddlers
>
> For example if you have multiple quotes for fred and others, do new here 
> and call the tiddler quote, clone this to quote 1 and it to will be tagged 
> fred. Do as many as you want, now you want quotes from Wilma, clone one of 
> freds quotes, remove the fred tag and add wilma tag, now clone that for 
> multiple wilma quotes. Here you do not care about the quote titles Only 
> that the are unique and tagged with the quotee.
>
> There is I believe no structure you can not build with tiddlywiki. And 
> that is even before using alternate tag structures and custom fields.
>
> The universe has being fine built by quarks, so to is tiddlywiki built on 
> tidders.
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[TonyM]

Folks,

A friendly rant.

In any given structure, there tends to be an atomic smallest unit. In 
tiddlywiki this is the tiddler. This unit is so practical we tend to operate in 
this domain. In databases the minimum unit is a record, and people have to 
build larger structures such as client records (plural) to get any meaningful 
work done. This is not the case, in tiddlywiki. 

Because the tiddler title must be unique, you always have a unique key to 
reference the smallest unit. This means you do not need to worry about unique 
keys.

If you want larger structures, especialy multiple multiline text fields you 
need to build them. I think this only comes as a supprise to people because the 
smallest unit is so useful.

Here are a few ways to extend a tiddler
Use the tiddler to tag a set of tiddlers
Transclude other tiddlers
Make "subtiddlers" such as tiddlername/subtiddler name
Create a chain of tiddlers, or list of tiddlers
Use datatiddlers

For example if you have multiple quotes for fred and others, do new here and 
call the tiddler quote, clone this to quote 1 and it to will be tagged fred. Do 
as many as you want, now you want quotes from Wilma, clone one of freds quotes, 
remove the fred tag and add wilma tag, now clone that for multiple wilma 
quotes. Here you do not care about the quote titles Only that the are unique 
and tagged with the quotee.

There is I believe no structure you can not build with tiddlywiki. And that is 
even before using alternate tag structures and custom fields.

The universe has being fine built by quarks, so to is tiddlywiki built on 
tidders.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-7, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> In a quote framework, I dont like the *idea* of having to come up with 
> some unique title to specify each quote. I'd rather have a quotes 
> *database* (tiddler) with *rows* (fields? bullet points in the text 
> field?) that I can access outside that tiddler in a sensible way. 
>
>  

> Right now, I'd have to come up with some contrived way to have 
> meaningful but unique tiddler titles, and use *tags* to specify that 
> these are all really *rows* of the quotes tiddler.
>
>
The problem is that you're getting hung up on "meaningful" names. They 
don't need to be meaningful. They just need to be unique. You can add 
meaning through fields, tags, sub-titles etc. Most "real" database systems 
depend on a unique ID field that is auto-generated and that has no 
relationship to the actual data. 

That said, many of us would like to have the slices capability of the old 
TWC back. Most people don't start with short little paragraphs and then 
build up a document. Most people start with a document, and then create 
sub-sections within it that they want to refer to later. Five years on, 
there are still no core tools to make it easy to move or delete "documents" 
(tiddlers associated by tag  or field structure). Using tags to form a 
document means that you're using tags both for semantic and structural 
constructions, which results in tag-space pollution. In addition, there's 
at least a hundred bytes of overhead space required for every tiddler. In a 
system that is space-sensitive. But I digress.

Oh well. That's progress for you.  Have to keep up with the times. You *can* 
construct an entire document, or even an entire document from tiddlers. 
Search the group and you'll find a Bible where every single verse is in 
it's own tiddler. I would be surprised if your quote collection exceeded 
that.

Have fun
-- Mark

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[PMario]

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 6:10:14 PM UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> I agree Mario - having multiline fields will not solve this conceptual 
> problem - the problem being the relationship between titles and content in 
> a minimum information unit framework.
>
> The solution might not be multiline fields, instead its some way to 
> *specify* and *access* some kind of "sub structure" of a tiddler. 
>

Yea, This possibility has been removed from TW5. I think this was a error. 
With TWclassic it was possible to transclude parts of a tiddler using 
headings as delimiter. ... 

The syntax was {{tiddler-name##heading-text}} ... Which is now access to 
data tiddlers.

The problem with TWc was, that changing the heading-text broke the links 
!!!  Which caused a different set of problems :/

-

You are right, if someone creates an intrinsic structure, while writing 
prose text. It should be possible to access (transclude) parts of this 
structure into other tiddlers. 

If we can reliably detect the "start" and "end-point" of the content to be 
used, I'd be in favour of using it! 

-m

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Jed Carty]

You can use a data tiddler to hold the quotes and just give each one a 
numeric key that you increment each time. That way you don't have to worry 
about names and you can have multi-line quotes. You can't tag them 
individually that way but you could have one tiddler for each group of 
quotes.

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Diego Mesa]

I agree Mario - having multiline fields will not solve this conceptual 
problem - the problem being the relationship between titles and content in 
a minimum information unit framework.

The solution might not be multiline fields, instead its some way to 
*specify* and *access* some kind of "sub structure" of a tiddler. 

In a quote framework, I dont like the *idea* of having to come up with some 
unique title to specify each quote. I'd rather have a quotes *database* 
(tiddler) with *rows* (fields? bullet points in the text field?) that I can 
access outside that tiddler in a sensible way. 

Right now, I'd have to come up with some contrived way to have 
meaningful but unique tiddler titles, and use *tags* to specify that these 
are all really *rows* of the quotes tiddler.

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:48:17 AM UTC-5, PMario wrote:
>
> I did edit my previewous post: 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/nJVYWLmxEmk/fv3T5UZUCgAJ
> -m
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[PMario]

I did edit my previewous post: 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/nJVYWLmxEmk/fv3T5UZUCgAJ
-m

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[PMario]

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:31:18 AM UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> This is a good idea - but my concern is not so much about how to create 
> and ensure I have a unique title. Its more that these methods cause me to 
> question the entire *idea* and *meaning* of a tiddler title under these 
> circumstances  
>

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:31:18 AM UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> This is a good idea - but my concern is not so much about how to create 
> and ensure I have a unique title. Its more that these methods cause me to 
> question the entire *idea* and *meaning* of a tiddler title under these 
> circumstances  
>

When you start with TiddlyWiki, the tiddler title is "plain text". ... 
That's a good thing, because it's simple. 

 - Plain text titles tend to be long. ... 
 - That's why they may not fit nicely into TOCs
 - So  why we introduced the "caption" field. 

That's a good solution, but it already increases complexity. ... Users need 
to know about the caption field, and where the core UI automagically uses 
it. 
eg: lists, tabs, ... and so on. 

At the moment that's as far as "the core UI" goes. 
---

Using plugins, you can go further. ... Using plugins is a "user decision" 
... So advanced users know, what they are doing ;)

The uni-link plugin  allows 
you to use the "caption" and "subtitle"-field to be shown instead of a 
[[tiddler link]] without breaking backwards compatibility.  

The alias-function goes even further, it allows you to reference a tiddler, 
by a completely different alias-name. 

It abstracts away the "tiddler-title", by *signifacally increasing 
complexity*. eg: 

 - a lot more documentation is needed
 - a new [[link syntax|?]] is needed ... (still not breaking backwards 
compatibility)
 - new javscript code is needed to speed things up. 
 - ViewTemplate extensions are needed to identify alias tiddler (see 
alias-footer)
 - new link-colors are introduced to make alias links visible for users
 - ... 

At the moment that's as fare as uni-link goes 

Creating a new theme can go even further: eg: slant-01 
 is an opinionated theme. 

I use it as a starting point for my TWs (+ a lot of my other plugins 
)

 - It scales down the tiddler title in the view-template, to make it less 
dominant. 
 - This allows me to use real h1-headings in the tiddler content. 
- This makes tiddler content reusable
- Especially in combination with the new upcomming 
tv-adjust-heading-level 
 
variable it will be a "killer"
 - The tiddler title is nothing but an identifier anymore. 
 - Once it is defined, it will never be changed again
   - having good tiddler names is hard !!
   - that's just a convention.
 - my tiddler titles need to be human readable (so UUIDs are a no go!)
 - my tiddler titles (should) create nice URL links.
   - eg: https://wikilabs.github.io/editions/slant-01/#01-slant-01-theme 
   - this rule will be broken, if the use-case needs it! 

In combination with uni-link and the alias function I think it's almost 
possible to eliminate tiddler titles. 

BUT 

to fully eleimnate them, the theme would need to be expanded quite a bit. 
... Which is *complex *;)

just some thougts

have fun!
mario




 

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[PMario]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:50:12 PM UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> I (respectfully) disagree completely on having fields take up multiple 
> lines!
> I think a combination of:
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1947#issuecomment-261960097
> and
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3308
> Would adequately address this!
>

Having multi line filds will _not_ save your conceptual problems!

It will only introduce a plethora of new problems, that will signiffcally 
increase complexity.

-mario

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[TonyM]

Diego,

I have no such conumdrum, but I am looking at the edge cases, recently 
creating a unique field ID allowing references after a title change. One is 
unique for all time the other is unique at any moment in time. 


On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 11:31:18 AM UTC+10, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Hey David,
>
> This is a good idea - but my concern is not so much about how to create 
> and ensure I have a unique title. Its more that these methods cause me to 
> question the entire *idea* and *meaning* of a tiddler title under these 
> circumstances  
>
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:28:02 PM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:
>>
>> I would have a new journal button that titles the journal down to the 
>> second.
>>
>> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 1:28:35 PM UTC-5, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
>>> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
>>> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
>>> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
>>> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
>>> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
>>> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>>>
>>> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>>>
>>> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to 
>>> have a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like 
>>> this) expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information 
>>> than the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section 
>>> off/refer to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>>>
>>> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are 
>>> very deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Diego 
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Diego,

You have stumbled upon the deep philosophical conundrum at the heart of 
tiddlywiki (and maybe the whole world) and one of the "two hardest problems 
in computer science"

"There are 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming 
things, and off-by-1 errors 
"

Regards,
Richard

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[TonyM]

Just to add

Although a field can have only one line it can include  or a reference to a 
text field which is multiline eg {{othertiddler}}

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Diego Mesa]

Hey David,

This is a good idea - but my concern is not so much about how to create and 
ensure I have a unique title. Its more that these methods cause me to 
question the entire *idea* and *meaning* of a tiddler title under these 
circumstances  

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:28:02 PM UTC-5, David Gifford wrote:
>
> I would have a new journal button that titles the journal down to the 
> second.
>
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 1:28:35 PM UTC-5, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
>> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
>> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
>> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
>> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
>> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
>> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>>
>> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>>
>> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to 
>> have a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like 
>> this) expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information 
>> than the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section 
>> off/refer to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>>
>> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are 
>> very deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>>
>> Best,
>> Diego 
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[David Gifford]

I would have a new journal button that titles the journal down to the 
second.

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 1:28:35 PM UTC-5, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>
> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>
> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to have 
> a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like this) 
> expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information than 
> the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section off/refer 
> to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>
> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are very 
> deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>
> Best,
> Diego 
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I respectfully think you are right. I didn't mean they should. 

I meant it is an issue that one might want to store data with breaks. BUT I 
don't think its necessary the breaks go with it. Its more about the 
interaction with fields. Breaks can be re-constituted. The same issue 
applies to easier managing of arrays.  

On Sunday, 22 July 2018 22:50:12 UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> I (respectfully) disagree completely on having fields take up multiple 
> lines!
>
> I think a combination of:
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1947#issuecomment-261960097
>
> and
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3308
>
> Would adequately address this!
>
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Comments on fields ...
>>
>> 1 -- you can set TW to show them even if not used (and reveal them 
>> outside the editor if you need)
>>
>> 2 -- you can move them to a different position in the editing interface
>>
>> 3 -- its possible to order them (if you need a lot) other than a-z.
>>
>> A fundamental problem is you can't have more than a line in one. In 
>> theory it would be possible to get round this but probably not worth the 
>> hassle. 
>>
>> On Friday, 20 July 2018 20:28:35 UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
>>> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
>>> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
>>> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
>>> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
>>> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
>>> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>>>
>>> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>>>
>>> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to 
>>> have a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like 
>>> this) expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information 
>>> than the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section 
>>> off/refer to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>>>
>>> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are 
>>> very deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Diego 
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Diego Mesa]

I (respectfully) disagree completely on having fields take up multiple 
lines!

I think a combination of:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1947#issuecomment-261960097

and

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3308

Would adequately address this!

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-5, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Comments on fields ...
>
> 1 -- you can set TW to show them even if not used (and reveal them outside 
> the editor if you need)
>
> 2 -- you can move them to a different position in the editing interface
>
> 3 -- its possible to order them (if you need a lot) other than a-z.
>
> A fundamental problem is you can't have more than a line in one. In theory 
> it would be possible to get round this but probably not worth the hassle. 
>
> On Friday, 20 July 2018 20:28:35 UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
>> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
>> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
>> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
>> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
>> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
>> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>>
>> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>>
>> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to 
>> have a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like 
>> this) expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information 
>> than the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section 
>> off/refer to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>>
>> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are 
>> very deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>>
>> Best,
>> Diego 
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Comments on fields ...

1 -- you can set TW to show them even if not used (and reveal them outside 
the editor if you need)

2 -- you can move them to a different position in the editing interface

3 -- its possible to order them (if you need a lot) other than a-z.

A fundamental problem is you can't have more than a line in one. In theory 
it would be possible to get round this but probably not worth the hassle. 

On Friday, 20 July 2018 20:28:35 UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>
> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>
> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to have 
> a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like this) 
> expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information than 
> the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section off/refer 
> to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>
> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are very 
> deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>
> Best,
> Diego 
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Diego Mesa]

Thank you all for your response and suggestion.

For me, it seems like this brings into sharp focus the relationship between 
a minimum information unit (tiddler?) in TW and its requirements (title?). 
As Mark S said, I like thinking of a tiddler more as a database. If so, 
then it makes sense that we should have better ways to make and edit fields.

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 4:13:31 PM UTC-5, whatever wrote:
>
> Hi!
> You can take a look at my PersonalQuotePlugin (1) or Eric's Quot
> eOfTheDayPlugin  (2, 3) 
> for TWC to see how it could be done. You can then port those principles to 
> TW5.
>
> (1) http://personalquote.tiddlyspot.com/
> (2) http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#QuoteOfTheDayPlugin 
> 
> (3) http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#QuoteOfTheDayPlugin 
> Info
>
> w
>
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 8:28:35 PM UTC+2, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
>> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
>> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
>> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
>> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
>> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
>> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>>
>> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>>
>> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to 
>> have a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like 
>> this) expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information 
>> than the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section 
>> off/refer to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>>
>> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are 
>> very deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>>
>> Best,
>> Diego 
>>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Yes, tiddlers have sub-parts.

Each tiddler can be thought of as a record in a conventional database, 
where the title functions as a title, unique id, and visibility flag. There 
is only one field that corresponds to a blob or text field (i.e. the text 
field). Real databases may have more than one blob field per record.

When organizing your quotes, perhaps try to figure out what is most 
important (date? author? topic?). Then organizing your titles like author - 
source - topic - date will give you a unique title that is human readable. 
BUT, you don't want to depend on it for searching. Probably.

For organizing your records further, you will want fields like "author", 
"quote-date" , "source", topic. You could, of course, put some of this 
information into the tags. Then color-code the tags for whether they 
correspond to author (blue), date (red), source (green). This has the 
advantage because so much utility is already built into the tag structure. 
You don't have to add templates or take additional steps. So if you have a 
tiddler tagged with "Emerson", you can instantly see all the other titles 
tagged with Emerson and with a single click you can go to the Emerson 
author tiddler and learn when he was born, worked, etc. I think this is the 
way I would go if I had only a hundred quotes or so to manage. More than 
that, and it's probably time to start thinking of using multiple fields and 
template patterns to apply. C Pa had a good overview of such a system here:


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/QUXd3kG1pTQ/RnYdTqLmAwAJ

Systems that depend on exact spelling of names and other field values can 
be very fragile. That's why for key fields like author, it might be best to 
assign an id (perhaps a number, or a standard abbreviation) and "link" by 
that. That is, your author's tiddler would have an id field (e.g. "rwe") 
and your quotes would have a corresponding author id field (author-id). 
That way you can nest list filters without causing confusion between Ralph 
Waldo Emerson, "Emerson, Ralph", "Emerson, Ralph W.", "Emerson, R.W." etc.

Those are my thoughts. Probably others will have better suggestions.

HTH
-- Mark

  






On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 11:28:35 AM UTC-7, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>
> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>
> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to have 
> a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like this) 
> expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information than 
> the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section off/refer 
> to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>
> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are very 
> deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>
> Best,
> Diego 
>

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[tw5] Re: Quotes and Minimum Information Units as Tiddlers

[Matthew Lauber]

I would consider putting the quote (or the first line of the quote) as the 
title of the tiddler, the full quote as the body, and then including 
information like speaker, date spoken, location, etc, in fields.  I'd also 
tag the tiddlers as "Quotes" so it's easy to find all of them.  There's 
some plugins/filters you can use to get a random set of quotes, including 
my "Shuffle" operator, available at http://mklauber.github.io/tw5-plugins.  
In this case, to randomly pick one to display I'd use the filter 
"[tag[Quote]shufflelimit[1]" which does the following:  Grab all 
tiddlers tagged Quote -> Shuffle the provided list randomly based on the 
date displayed (so you get a different list order each time) -> Limit the 
results to the first item.

Matt Lauber

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 2:28:35 PM UTC-4, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have a tiddler of "Important Quotes" with a bunch of bullet points of 
> interesting quotes Ive come across. I thought it would be nice to randomly 
> pick one of these as display them. Immediately, I thought this community 
> would say "They should each be in separate tiddlers!", which got me 
> thinking, what would I *title* each of those tiddlers? Surely nothing 
> meaningful, especially if I have several quotes by one person on the same 
> topic. For example, "Emmerson on Nature 1", "Emmerson on Nature 2", etc. 
>
> *Question 1:* How would you organize/solve this?
>
> *Question 2: *The "minimum unit of information" aka Tiddler needs to have 
> a title, but does this issue (I've had several related issues like this) 
> expose that there is a deeper/smaller level of relevant information than 
> the tiddler? If so, does this require a way to be able to section off/refer 
> to pieces of a tiddler easily?
>
> I can see fields being an answer to this question, but if so they are very 
> deficient (cant handle multiple lines, not easy to make/edit, etc)
>
> Best,
> Diego 
>

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