Re: [tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Tony,

I do not want to seem like I am hijacking the thread.
>
Neither do I.


> … what you seem to be suggesting is […] that the browser back and forward,
> and history are ways of jumping around urls within that session even if the
> tab changes in some way?
>
What I was suggesting is that the browser can jump around on the same *page*,
from anchor to anchor or via Javascript, changing URLs without the server
noticing. Positioning the content in the browser is a presentation issue
and totally independent from the server.


> What is not clear to me is as long as I make a change and it has not saved
> yet, when I do save it (except for NodeJS and Noteself), tiddlywiki writes
> the whole wiki back to the server, If you edited and saved something in
> between me I would overwrite your changes. like wise if I try and navigate
> to any other address, and I took this to mean also asking the browser to go
> to a new address outside the tiddlywiki (and inside for that matter) It
> will not permit me to leave if I have a save outstanding.
>
This is OT and I lack experience with saving to a server. But TW will ask
you to save before you leave if it can.


> Now back to Archizonas first question why would tiddlywiki maintain a
> scroll state etc... for every url in a browsers session,
> when it needs to respond dynamically to the users input? Or is this just a
> fault of the way we change focus within the tiddlywik?
>
Yes, in my eyes it is not correct now. Archizona is suggesting an
improvement.


> I hope my English is clear enough, and its my mother tongue.
>
:–D

I took a look at Archizonas code now and it seems to me it would profit
from an experts view, maybe @Mario if he could find some time.

All the best!
Thomas

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Re: [tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[TonyM]

 Archizona V

You site is impressive and extraordinary it is in tiddlywiki, I would love 
to know more, incidentally I am building a WordPress / Divi / WooCommerse 
Shop right now.

*Thomas,*

I am grateful for your answer and see no problem with your English. I am 
quite happy to be set strait and will change my mind on evidence 
(incidentally I am a modern skeptic, who works hard to be a critical 
thinker).

I do not want to seem like I am hijacking the thread.

To clarify

I understand what you have told me, Interestingly I have being involved 
with computers since before 1980, and I am aware that the key to the 
internet is the same as mainframe computers of the past, basically the 
server sends and it receives (get and Put), and these can be moments or 
hours between, so each put and get needed to somehow stand on their own, 
and a server does not care if you respond except in so far as it may 
maintain a session status, basically a server gets on with other work and 
only looks at what you ask it to, when we ask the server to do something  
(a Put).. I understood that in TiddlyWiki, that the terminal / browser and 
code in tiddlywiki are feature rich and and can do a lot on their own 
between put and get (this occurs every save for single files, and every 
tiddler under nodejs or noteself with couch db). Most of the interaction / 
response a user gets in tiddlywiki is from the local environment 
responding, not the server.

In my case I have equated a tab in a browser with a session, what you seem 
to be suggesting is the session is in the browser behind the tabs, and that 
the browser back and forward, and history are ways of jumping around urls 
within that session even if the tab changes in some way?

What is not clear to me is as long as I make a change and it has not saved 
yet, when I do save it (except for NodeJS and Noteself), tiddlywiki writes 
the whole wiki back to the server, If you edited and saved something in 
between me I would overwrite your changes. like wise if I try and navigate 
to any other address, and I took this to mean also asking the browser to go 
to a new address outside the tiddlywiki (and inside for that matter) It 
will not permit me to leave if I have a save outstanding.

Of course If I remain in one tab, where I use tiddlywiki to navigate, and 
it updates the address bar, I am not actually leaving the tiddlywiki 
session, and I am not forced to save. It remains in the save session. Of 
course we can add to this the ability of modern browsers to maintain a 
website session across browser restarts in some cases (like noteseff 
without a db).

Now back to Archizonas first question why would tiddlywiki maintain a 
scroll state etc... for every url in a browsers session, 
when it needs to respond dynamically to the users input? Or is this just a 
fault of the way we change focus within the tiddlywik?

I hope my English is clear enough, and its my mother tongue.

Regards
Tony






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Re: [tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Tony,

Technically, the tupper page, tiddlywiki.com and many TW pages I made are
all the same: they are single-page web applications. As a user you can load
one single HTML page and you have everything. Then you can disconnect from
the internet and still use the website or navigate through the shop and
everything just works until you close the browser tab.

Heeg/tupper is a really great and innovative example of the potential TW
has concerning presentation. It hides it's TW nature from visitors … while
a savvy TW user can hack it, go to the control panel, activate some buttons
and edit content and even prices. It looks like read-only, but it isn't. It
is dynamic and editable and it hides it very well ;–)

Now about the browser navigation buttons. A single page web app like TW5
does not reload the page, even if the URL changes. Think of it like
internal links or anchors on the same page. They take you to another
section of the same page. Usually, browsers reflect this by appending the
name of the anchor to the url of the page: pagename.html#anchorname. In TW
you can choose if you want this or not and TW will instruct the browser
accordingly. (The first setting I mentioned in my previous post.) The same
is true for including this address in the browser’s history list: with TW
you can choose. (The second setting.) – No matter what you choose, the
browser will not leave the page and all edits are save, even if the app
presents different content after every click and the #anchor segment of the
URL is updated. This is also true if you go back and forth in the browser
history using the browser buttons!

You would be right if we were talking about static websites which TW also
can produce/export but this is not the case with our examples here.

No intent to set you straight – just trying to explain how single page
Tiddlywikis work :–)

I hope I could make my points clear even if my English is not the best.

Cheers,
Thomas


TonyM  schrieb am Fr. 13. Okt. 2017 um 03:13:

> Thomas,
>
> I stand to be corrected, but clearly in the above example are we
> discussing https://Tupper.online
> 
> is a read only published website, which is substantially different to a
> dynamic editable tiddlywiki. The first question did not make this
> differentiation.
>
> The only thing I dispute, which I expected a newbie to be mistaken is the
> browser back button in writable tiddlywiki.
>
> If auto-save is on and permalinks displayed this may be achievable but
> when a single file wiki is in use back and forward force the browser to
> load the whole wiki again on each action. Changes not saved will not be
> found after back or forward. As nice as save on every action is when you
> have large wikis or data tiddlers, turning off auto-save is needed, and you
> must manually save before leaving the page.
>
> In the examples discussed, this is clearly tiddlywiki as a website (prior
> to web 2.0) , I agree totally that it would be ideal if it behaves like any
> other website and honors the forward and back buttons as navigation tools,
> but surely this needs to be a static website, lest you load the whole wiki
> every-time?
>
> If you can set me strait on the question and issues please to so.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
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[tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[TonyM]

Thomas,

I stand to be corrected, but clearly in the above example are we discussing 
https://Tupper.online 

 
is a read only published website, which is substantially different to a 
dynamic editable tiddlywiki. The first question did not make this 
differentiation.

The only thing I dispute, which I expected a newbie to be mistaken is the 
browser back button in writable tiddlywiki. 

If auto-save is on and permalinks displayed this may be achievable but when 
a single file wiki is in use back and forward force the browser to load the 
whole wiki again on each action. Changes not saved will not be found after 
back or forward. As nice as save on every action is when you have large 
wikis or data tiddlers, turning off auto-save is needed, and you must 
manually save before leaving the page.

In the examples discussed, this is clearly tiddlywiki as a website (prior 
to web 2.0) , I agree totally that it would be ideal if it behaves like any 
other website and honors the forward and back buttons as navigation tools, 
but surely this needs to be a static website, lest you load the whole wiki 
every-time?

If you can set me strait on the question and issues please to so.

Tony




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[tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Tony

I have to disagree with your statement about the ways “we” navigate in TW as 
there are many ways and none of them are right or wrong. 

It takes only a few clicks in the control panel > settings tab to make 
tiddlywiki.com behave like the tupper demo (minus the improvement made in the 
latter): 

Navigation Address Bar

Behaviour of the browser address bar when navigating to a tiddler:

( ) Include the target tiddler and the current story sequence

(x) Include the target tiddler

( ) Do not update the address bar

Navigation History

Update browser history when navigating to a tiddler:

(x) Update history

( ) Do not update history

Of course you have to choose zoomin for the storyview too as mentioned before. 

Jumping back to the previous position on the previous page/section using the 
browser’s back button seems to be standard behavior and to meet user 
expectations. 

So to me this looks like a useful proposal and I wuold appreciate if anyone 
more qualified than me could look into the code of the demo and suggest a pull 
request on Github. 

Thanks to Archizona and cheers to both of you!
Thomas 

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[tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[TonyM]

Archizona,

I understand,. there is a fundamental difference here, We do not use back 
or forward in TiddlyWiki, we remain on a single page all the time, Your 
example stores a scroll position for each page.

There are other ways to navigate in tiddlywiki, like using a Table of 
contents, or the Open (tiddlers) tab in the sidebar. or tabs (Yes it would 
be great.e if a tab could remember the scroll position).

What you raise is a little similar to my interest in a click to edit at 
cursor, but there are some architectural differences that need to be 
addressed.

Best of Luck
Tony


On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:31:57 AM UTC+11, Archizona V wrote:
>
> Hi,Tony! Your tabs don't solve this problem. The only way I have found is 
> to put some JS code to zoomin.js system tiddler. Here is my demo 
> https://Tupper.online  if you scroll to the bottom, click any picture and 
> the push back button, your will see that scroll position on the first page 
> is the same. 
>
> It will be very nice, if this modification will be in next TW5 releases 
>

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[tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[Archizona V]

Hi,Tony! Your tabs don't solve this problem. The only way I have found is to 
put some JS code to zoomin.js system tiddler. Here is my demo 
https://Tupper.online  if you scroll to the bottom, click any picture and the 
push back button, your will see that scroll position on the first page is the 
same. 

It will be very nice, if this modification will be in next TW5 releases 

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[tw] Re: Bad zoomin.js working with long tiddlers.

[TonyM]

Archizona,

A Few very large tiddlers may benefit from TiddlersBar to place them as 
tabs.

Without solving your problem would this be a solution?

http://tongerner.tiddlyspot.com/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Ftongerner%2Ftiddlersbar

But perhaps this indicates time to excise, or divide the tiddler into 
smaller pieces.

Regards
Tony

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