[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Yes... I was wondering about that too.

It's like running into a crowded theater and yelling, "Does anyone know 
where the fire extinguisher is?"

Mark

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 7:14:18 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> What conversations are you referring to? I haven't seen anyone saying that 
> we should move toward a server model for anything. 

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Jed Carty]

What conversations are you referring to? I haven't seen anyone saying that we 
should move toward a server model for anything. 

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Hegart Dmishiv]

Hi Mat,

(Dunce-hat!? I'm but a beautiful cone head 
> !
>  
> )
>

Ah, I see, sorry, showing my age here again.
 

> The no-server-needed was definitely what enabled me to begin using TW.. If 
> some server based or server interactive solutions came up, that did not 
> take away the current TW format but worked as a parallel fork, I'd be fine 
> with that too. Were additional multi-file offline solutions to come, beyond 
> the nodejs version we have, I'd be fine with that too. I'm not saying I'd 
> use any of them, I don't know that -  but of course TW would reach a larger 
> user base and likely attract even more competence, brains, solutions, and 
> ideas that cross-pollinate and bring benefit also for the current TW.
>

On that we can totally agree. I don't use Node.js at all. I have used 
GitHub to host a TW instance, and had to deal with tiddlers as individual 
files in that setup, similar to the way Node.js does. I currently have 
several TWs hosted on Dropbox, which I'm not a fan of either, but I use it 
because that's what the *{{DesignWrite}}* course uses currently. Beyond 
that, as long as any future developments of TiddlyWiki don't impinge on the 
single-file nature of the TWs I use, I'm all for other people being able to 
use TW the way they want to. I see no problem with the co-existance of both 
single-file and server-based TiddlyWiki development.

Hegart.

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Mat]

Hegart, 
 

> I did a  search for your funny little dunce-hat emoticon in the 
> TiddlyWikiDev  
> forums, and came across many instances of posts you've made there, so I 
> know you know about "the Dev channel".
>

Ah, sorry, I had just never heard the Dev group being referred to as the 
Dev *channel*, that's all. But then, which threads there does Josiah refer 
to?

(Dunce-hat!? I'm but a beautiful cone head 
!
 
)

...

The no-server-needed was definitely what enabled me to begin using TW.. If 
some server based or server interactive solutions came up, that did not 
take away the current TW format but worked as a parallel fork, I'd be fine 
with that too. Were additional multi-file offline solutions to come, beyond 
the nodejs version we have, I'd be fine with that too. I'm not saying I'd 
use any of them, I don't know that -  but of course TW would reach a larger 
user base and likely attract even more competence, brains, solutions, and 
ideas that cross-pollinate and bring benefit also for the current TW.


<:-)

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[progetti]

Mat

The two solutions SERVER v. ONE PAGE are NOT exclusive. But they ARE 
orthogonal.There IS tension between them. 

Mr Ruston will say where I am I wrong, I am sure. And if I was off I would 
like him to say so. My comments are based on my understanding of his 
understanding that one needs to be cautious of getting in bed with systems 
beyond ones living room. 

Much fine stuff has been lost from lack of caution on things like that. 
RadioUserland, a brilliant user editable application, a home server 
website/blog was superb. The guy behind it also developed the first RSS 
structures. Its OFF the map now. 

One thing is sure, if you don't hold onto your central vision you'll end up 
a slave of servers.

TW to me is something I can use at home in a browser to create both content 
& structures I need. Its power, modularity & iterative, self-changing logic 
is unique.

I get NERVOUS that the ONE FILE, ALONE AT HOME, is perhaps no longer so 
much the PRIMARY base we are all focused on here.

Otherwise, I'm quite happy.

Josiah

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Hegart Dmishiv]

Hi Mat,

And, actually, where/what is "the Dev channel"? a google hangout?
>
> <:-)
>

I did a  search for your funny little dunce-hat emoticon in the 
TiddlyWikiDev  
forums, and came across many instances of posts you've made there, so I 
know you know about "the Dev channel".

I totally agree with the primacy of the single file, offline TiddlyWiki. 
The whole reason I started using TiddlyWiki in the first place, as an ex 
network admin, was the simple fact that I didn't need to spin up a server 
stack in order to get TW working. If not for that one fact, I'd have stayed 
with using MediaWiki for my home network.

Apart from my main personal use of TW which brought me here, I've since 
started work on another project which I've been dreaming about for years, 
and only since meeting the single-file TiddlyWiki have I been confident 
enough to give it a go. That project (from my perspective, anyway) is 
reliant on the single-file nature of TW if it is to succeed with its 
intended target audience. I know some people may consider a single-user, 
single-file CRM system to be severely hobbled, but TiddlyCRM is no 
traditional CRM, and will be focused on the home user, who may not have the 
expertise to spin up a server stack (either online or local), and who 
definitely wouldn't want their confidential contact data to be available 
online.

So, to me, the biggest "argument against server dependency" is the low 
entry-point for non-technical users. Jeremy has recently been speaking in 
the *{{DesignWrite}}* weekly Conversations about treating TiddlyWiki wikis 
as documents, similar to MS Word / LibreOffice Writer documents. You create 
them on the fly, many of them, as and when you need them, and dispose of 
them at will. That level of knowledge is what I expect from the intended 
audience for TiddlyCRM. I certainly don't expect they'll be ready for 
Node.js.

Hegart.

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Mat]

Josiah

I'm just asking what Jeremys arguments are, because I have simply not heard 
them. Or maybe the post is about your own opinion on what TW should or 
should not be? (Fair enough)


What is your point? Are you saying TW should give up adherence to the idea 
> a user alone with TW on a private PC is as lesser being?
>

Interesting interpretation of my post. Please read it again, will you.

As for my (actual) opinion on the matter; I don't see why a standalone 
solution and a server solution would be mutually exclusive - ? For example, 
TiddlySpace worked (works) around a different paradigm where tiddlers where 
stand-alone units. This opened up for really cool stuff. But you could 
still download a tiddlyspace and have it be an offline standalone TW.

<:-)

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[progetti]

Mat

The point is serious. TW is unique in being essentially a ONE FILE system. 

The fact we communicate beyond it using different media is NOT the point. 

What is your point? Are you saying TW should give up adherence to the idea 
a user alone with TW on a private PC is as lesser being?

Serverism is seductive. Are you seduced?

Josiah

On Tuesday, 26 April 2016 22:51:58 UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
> Exactly which arguments against server dependency is it that are praised 
> here? I have not heard them.
>
> And, actually, where/what is "the Dev channel"? a google hangout?
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw] Re: To Jeremy Ruston - TW STAND-ALONE is MY thing ...

[Mat]

Exactly which arguments against server dependency is it that are praised 
here? I have not heard them.

And, actually, where/what is "the Dev channel"? a google hangout?

<:-)

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