In a message dated 13/12/2009 18:52:37 GMT Standard Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:
Volts and yards, at least, are also not absolute measurements in the
same sense that measurements of time are not absolute. Volts express
the difference in electrical potential, and yards the p
[time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
Mike wrote:
>You guys obviously missed Hermann Weyl's writings, specifically his
>"Space-Time-Matter" and "Philosophy of
>Mathematics" * * * That was mainly why earlier I expressed
>my opinion simply as "
Mike wrote:
You guys obviously missed Hermann Weyl's writings, specifically his
"Space-Time-Matter" and "Philosophy of
Mathematics" * * * That was mainly why earlier I expressed
my opinion simply as "bullshit"
Not at all. It's just that for all of Weyl's brilliant contributions
t
At 01:51 PM 12/13/2009, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote...
In my view, these are all questions, not about time, but rather about
our perception of time.
Yes, he seems to have discovered Eddington's "arrow of time."
There also seems to be some confusion over the difference between the
spacetime dim
Perhaps because we may move about in the three spatial
dimensions as we move unidirectionally in the temporal dimension?
Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
The puzzle is why we perceive the spatial dimensions so differently from
the temporal dimension. It is a fascinating question, but may not
You guys obviously missed Hermann Weyl's writings, specifically his
"Space-Time-Matter" and "Philosophy of Mathematics" both of which I have
read exhaustively in my early 20's. That is well over 40 years ago, yet I
still feel the impact of some of his statements. That was mainly why earlier
I expre
Charles,
That's a very good description of the situation.
The real dilemma has to do with why some people require absolutes,
as perfect, complete, or pure, when nature doesn't offer any. The
need originates in the brain, where perceptions are adjusted to
find absolutes.
Absolute zero is merely t
Nigel wrote:
I use "absolute" in the sense that is commonly implied in the term
"absolute quantity", where an absolute quantity is the measure of
the absolute occurence of a variable, as in "so many volts, yards, kilos, etc.
Volts and yards, at least, are also not absolute measurements in t
This discussion started off interestingly enough, but has deteriorated to a
point where it reminds me of a tale told to me by one of my mentors well
over 40 years ago. At the time, I was very interested in existential
philosophy myself and studied it and thought about it ad infinitum.
It goes so
In a message dated 13/12/2009 05:04:53 GMT Standard Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:
I think we all agree that intervals are what we measure. The
question is whether this has any bearing on whether "time is an
absolute quantity," and if so, whether time being or not being an
In a message dated 13/12/2009 05:04:53 GMT Standard Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:
I think we all agree that intervals are what we measure. The
question is whether this has any bearing on whether "time is an
absolute quantity," and if so, whether time being or not being an
Nigel wrote:
Again though, it's the interval that we measure. [In response to my
suggestion that, in theory, we could specify the interval since the
big bang and it would be "absolute" in a fairly robust sense, at
least in this universe.]
Assigning conventional units to measurement is not a
idier
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Neville Michie
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
I can not see h
At 05:02 PM 12/12/2009, Mike Naruta AA8K wrote...
Some (Penrose, Nottale) suggest that time
may be discrete rather than continuous.
10E-43 second might be your basic tick.
Yes, Planck time. Closer to 5.4e-44 s.
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I can not see how time is any different to any other quantity in
Maxwell's equations,
so time must be just as measurable, real and physical.
cheers, Neville Michie
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Some (Penrose, Nottale) suggest that time
may be discrete rather than continuous.
10E-43 second might be your basic tick.
Mike S wrote:
Alternately, he simply means there is no universal epoch for time, so
just as a spacial coordinate requires a defined reference, so too does a
time mea
At 12:41 PM 12/12/2009, Ian Sheffield wrote...
I can imagine this kind of debate over a soccer/hockey/insert your
sport here/ team,
but on the nature of time?
unless I am missing some irony?
He's either having a very hard time stating something very obvious (and
behaving as if it's insightf
Well, here's another statement that reveals the nature of time:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Bill Hawkins
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Whoah
I can imagine this kind of debate over a soccer/hockey/insert your sport
here/ team,
but on the nature of time?
unless I am missing some irony?
- Original Message -
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time refe
In a message dated 12/12/2009 15:17:23 GMT Standard Time,
mi...@flatsurface.com writes:
At 08:53 AM 12/12/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
>I'm sorry you can't, or won't, understand but the ability to measure
>intervals between events does not in itself demonstrate the existence
>of time
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Mike S wrote:
> At 06:47 PM 12/11/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
>
> Unfortunately, that's not really the way it is.
>>
>
> That's opinion, stated as fact.
That all depends on what your definition of "is" is :-)
___
sing under the weight of these heavy thoughts . . .
Bill Hawkins
-Original Message-
From:
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 11:47 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
>
> In a message dated 11/12/2009 21:47:28 GMT Standard Time,
> michael.c...@wanadoo.f
Give it to them Nigel . . . . .
Roy
--
From:
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 11:47 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
In a message dated 11/12/2009 21:47:28 GMT Standard Time,
michael.c...@wanadoo.fr writes:
F
At 08:53 AM 12/12/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
I'm sorry you can't, or won't, understand but the ability to measure
intervals between events does not in itself demonstrate the existence
of time as
any kind of physical entity.
LOL. You're over your head here.
___
nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ian Sheffield
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:18 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
>
> Remember that saying from the Hitchhikers' Guide:
>
> &q
In a message dated 12/12/2009 13:00:21 GMT Standard Time,
mi...@flatsurface.com writes:
At 07:13 AM 12/12/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
>I think you might be missing the point, the OED definition that you
>quote
>does not define time itself as an absolute measurable entity, and what
>ti
Remember that saying from the Hitchhikers' Guide:
"Time is an illusion - lunchtime doubly so."
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At 07:13 AM 12/12/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
I think you might be missing the point, the OED definition that you
quote
does not define time itself as an absolute measurable entity, and what
time
nuts measure are, yet again, the intervals between events.
Define "absolute measurable quan
In a message dated 12/12/2009 11:35:49 GMT Standard Time,
mi...@flatsurface.com writes:
At 06:47 PM 12/11/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
>Unfortunately, that's not really the way it is.
That's opinion, stated as fact.
--
Is it?
Can you show me any definition of "time" which de
At 06:47 PM 12/11/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
Unfortunately, that's not really the way it is.
That's opinion, stated as fact.
Time nuts do not and cannot measure time itself because time as an
absolute
entity just doesn't exist.
That depends upon how one defines "time." Also, how one
In a message dated 12/12/2009 08:13:04 GMT Standard Time,
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com writes:
>Time nuts do not and cannot measure time itself because time as an
>absolute entity just doesn't exist.
I suppose specifying the interval since the big bang could qualify as
an absolute measure
In a message dated 12/12/2009 05:08:39 GMT Standard Time,
john.fo...@gmail.com writes:
Time does not just exist. That is correct. It is a human construct, like
all other things. We define it, as all other things, and then make useful
empirical comparative observations with it.
-
Nigel wrote:
Time nuts do not and cannot measure time itself because time as an
absolute entity just doesn't exist.
I suppose specifying the interval since the big bang could qualify as
an absolute measure of time (at least in our universe), but in
practice it must elude us because everythin
by AT&T
-Original Message-
From: gandal...@aol.com
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:47:02
To:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
In a message dated 11/12/2009 21:47:28 GMT Standard Time,
michael.c...@wanadoo.fr writes:
For me time just exists. What time nuts do
Hi
We ran one of the NIST common view gizmos for a number of years. After watching
what they were doing off of published data, I think a "time nut" could do the
same thing. The only gotcha being that you have a good clock to compare to.
Bob
On Dec 11, 2009, at 6:44 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote:
In a message dated 11/12/2009 21:47:28 GMT Standard Time,
michael.c...@wanadoo.fr writes:
For me time just exists. What time nuts do is to try and measure and
characterise it.
Unfortunately, that's not really the way it is.
Time nuts do not and cannot measure time itse
The big boys use GPS to compare their clocks. Search for >common view<.
common view time transfer
Stanley
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> Thank you for your suggestions. I suppose I should have emphasised
> that I was looking to have my own reference, i.e. something not
> dependent on GPS, LORAN, or other signals from the aether. Indeed I
> might get better accuracy for less money by tapping the GPS time
> signal, but to me that's
Excellent comments!
John WA4WDL
--
From: "mike cook"
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:46 PM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
- Ori
- Original Message -
From: "jmfranke"
< snipped >
> You will often hear that time is the inverse of frequency, but the
inverse of
frequency is period or time interval. Time is set by governments.
I agree with the the sentment, but not the last phrase.
For me time just exists. Wha
Building oscillators, restoring old frequency standards, interfacing to a
clock or time display, and tracking your successes and failures is the lure.
For independent checking of time and to some extent frequency, I play with
several radio related approaches: WWV, WWVB, CHU, GPS, and Russian
T
Charl,
I am very new to this as well and I had similar goals you to yours.
In the end, all of these standards use a crystal oscillator. It is just a
matter of what is doing the disciplining. The Cesium Beam, Rubidium, and
GPS signals all discipline a crystal oscillator. The quality of the sign
riginal Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Justin Pinnix
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:50 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
I'm hearing a lot of rec
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:50 AM, John Green wrote:
> As someone relatively new to the precision time/frequency game my viewpoint
> is a little different to the more seasoned folk. Your statement that you
> wanted to build your own atomic standard leads me to believe that this is
> more of a learni
As someone relatively new to the precision time/frequency game my viewpoint
is a little different to the more seasoned folk. Your statement that you
wanted to build your own atomic standard leads me to believe that this is
more of a learning experience for you. Even if you want to build it
yourself
I'm hearing a lot of recommendations for types of oscillators, but noone has
asked the question - what is the desired performance?
For me, I wanted a clock that stays within a second of UTC for a year. I'm
pretty sure the LPRO I bought will exceed that, (though I guess I won't know
for another 12
> Bill,
>
> he was planning to spend 100 USD on a used Rubidium, I think a Cs is way
> over his budget ;-)
Luck has more to do with that than money. My cheapest cesium standard, at
$500, also turned out to be the only one out of three with a healthy tube. You
have to plan on buying a few tur
Bill,
he was planning to spend 100 USD on a used Rubidium, I think a Cs is way
over his budget ;-)
But I agree that a Rubidium has a shorter life span and if you get one
for 100 USD on eBay, I would expect it to be "worn out" already.
I would not spend 100 USD on a used oscillator, Rubidium
Charl,
If it is autonomous operation you want, then your only choice is a Cesium Beam
frequency reference. By definition it is absolute ! But that does not address
resolution. For instance, if the Cs is old tube and noisy, while it may be
accurate, due to the noise you may not be able to resolv
.
Best regards,
Jean-Louis
- Original Message -
From: "Charl"
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference
Dear Hal and others,
Thank you for y
Hi
Simple answers:
Will you have fun - yes indeed.
Will a $100 rubidium deliver more accurate time long term than a GPS - no.
To get close to what the GPS delivers you will need to go at least to a Cesium
standard. Getting one with a working tube is not going to be cheap. Once you
do, the tub
Dear Hal and others,
Thank you for your suggestions. I suppose I should have emphasised that I
was looking to have my own reference, i.e. something not dependent on GPS,
LORAN, or other signals from the aether. Indeed I might get better accuracy
for less money by tapping the GPS time signal, but t
> I'm hoping to build my own circuit around the device, which might cut
> down the costs somewhat. Some rubidium sources on eBay go for less
> than $100, but I'm not sure what quality to expect. Any advice or
> suggestions are appreciated!
Short answer: Sure, get one of the $100 rubidium boxes
> >
> Unless one uses a 3 cornered hat technique or equivalnet one can only
> measure the relative stability of a pair of sources.
> What source was used as the reference in your measurements?
The measurements were made with an upgraded 5061A (Datum tube and
10811-60109).
I have used it to measu
John Miles wrote:
but you may not be comparing apples to apples.
Tom's plots are actual performance of probably a very good sample unit.
The 5071A spec lines you drew are worst-case specs.
In reality, the 5071A probably performs much better than it's
spec limits?
Also, I think the 5071A
>
> but you may not be comparing apples to apples.
>
> Tom's plots are actual performance of probably a very good sample unit.
> The 5071A spec lines you drew are worst-case specs.
>
> In reality, the 5071A probably performs much better than it's
> spec limits?
>
> Also, I think the 5071A "just"
Hi John,
but you may not be comparing apples to apples.
Tom's plots are actual performance of probably a very good sample unit.
The 5071A spec lines you drew are worst-case specs.
In reality, the 5071A probably performs much better than it's spec limits?
Also, I think the 5071A "just" has
> As a
> newbie to the field of timekeeping, I'm a bit uncertain what would make a
> good first system. The price tag of the high end masers unfortunately puts
> them outside my range, based on what I could see on eBay. I'll be happy to
> pay for good equipment, but once it gets to 4 digits it star
Dear Nuts,
For a while now, I've been wanting to build a time refence. Initially I was
considering making a crystal oven, but after some browsing I found that an
atomic reference is actually within my grasp! It appears there are quite a
few options with regard to technology, but also to competing
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