Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi Thanks to all the information here. I can put more items to my experiment list. Regads Li Ang, BI7LNQ 2016-01-11 11:28 GMT+08:00 Magnus Danielson : > Moin, > > On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: > >> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100 >> Magnus

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Moin, On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD? A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it. Also, as

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

God morgon, On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: > > A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation, > > but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect > > it from a normal mixer (namely having half

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Moin phk! On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 + "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >Single gate chips better than multi gate chips. > >(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts) > > Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things > better or

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

God eftermiddag, On 01/10/2016 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: God morgon, On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation, but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On 01/10/2016 11:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: Moin phk! On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 + "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: Single gate chips better than multi gate chips. (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts) Would paralleing multiple gates

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi > On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > > Moin phk! > > On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 + > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > >>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips. >>> (no interference through the power supply of the

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044) being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or race conditions. Motorola showed a block diagram made of gates, as if it were combinatorial logic, but because of the feedback, it is actually a state machine, as described in

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: > > SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD? > > A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it. > Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Am 10.01.2016 um 22:47 schrieb Alexander Pummer: and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices, which took care about that dead zone AD9901. 73 KJ6UHN Alex 73, Gerhard, DK4XP ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices, which took care about that dead zone 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 1/10/2016 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044) being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

"generate stable high -frequency signals with d flip-flops as digital mixers ans all -IC low frequency phase -locked loop", by R.Treadway and L.J. Reed, page 78 Electronic design 1 January 1972 Resistot array denounces D flip-flop mixer page 184 EDN 12 April 1990 digital frequency subtract or

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi Bob, In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate? Acorrding to my understanding, to multiply 1bit with another, I should use an AND gate, right? When

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800 Li Ang wrote: > In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input > signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the > difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate? A D-Flipflop is a rather weird

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi You can use a D flip flop to sample (down convert) a signal. You may or may not get into metastability problems when you do. If you treat the gate inputs as -1 and +1 rather than 0 and 1, the XOR is a multiplier. If you put two signals into the gate and look at the output on a spectrum

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: > >> > > Generally speaking: Faster CMOS better than slower CMOS in terms of phase > noise. > (Though, I have yet to see actual measurements of this) The gotcha is that each family gets measured as the parts come out.

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Attila, On 01/09/2016 09:25 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800 Li Ang wrote: In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the difference between D-flipflop

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

In message <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7...@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali writes: >Single gate chips better than multi gate chips. >(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts) Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things better or worse ?

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than an over-driven analog part. Bob If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it to the

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than an over-driven analog part. Yes *somebody* should check out a board built that way …. I’ll let you know when I do. Bob > On Jan 7, 2016, at 7:35 AM,

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi The board I have uses high speed CMOS single gate XOR’s. They have a pretty good phase noise floor (-170’s) so they should be pretty reasonable. Bob > On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist > wrote: > > > > On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On 2016-01-07 13:35, Attila Kinali wrote: On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" wrote: Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and you will see that the whole theory of operation of these depends on keeping the signal levels in

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On 1/7/2016 4:35 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer, ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other and replacing the current sources by resistors? How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much worse than the diode mixer?

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Bruce wrote: You mean DMTD = dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers / shift registers instead of a pair of mixers. I don't see how your comment is relevant to my post -- I did not mention either DMTDs or DDMTDs. I

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi Ok, so what needs to be done with the output of the mixer (no matter how you do it)? Assume you start from 10 MHz and head down to 10 Hz. Assume you are mad at your 5370 and want significantly better performance. Where does that get you? The 5370 already is in the ~ 20 ps range. A lot

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Sorry I was under the impression I was replying to Don's post. Sometimes my Windows machine seems to mess up the part of the thread to which I thought I was replying. My Linux box doesn't seem to have this problem. Bruce On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:26:14 PM Charles Steinmetz wrote: > Bruce

[time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

I realize this would not measure frequency or phase difference; but has anyone used a lock-in amplifier to compare two 10 MHz signals -- for example to adjust a rubidium oscillator to agree with a GPS reference? Bruce, KG6OJI ___ time-nuts mailing

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On 1/5/2016 12:07 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer. Bruce Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and you will see that the whole theory of operation of these depends on keeping

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Yes must have been a year or so ago there was a thread I recall that someone was doing that. Thats one expensive approach to the problem. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Bruce Hunter via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > I realize this would not measure frequency or

[time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD. Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD, and to be honest I fail to see the attraction. Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer. Bruce On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of my HP5370B counter which is

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

With some sine-to-square conversion as signal conditioning, not too hard these days, this could be a relatively straight forward approach. CERN already have digital clocks, so the DDMTD approach fits them well. For normal mixers you want to signal condition the signal prior to the mixers, and

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Poul-Henning, I have some guesses but I look forward to others. I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support circuitry especially if single power supply. I used lower frequency Analog Devices units in early experimentation on the wwvb d-psk-r. Granted they worked. They were

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond. Bruce On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

In message , paul swed writes: >I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support >circuitry especially if single power supply. The AD835 is 8-pins and as easy as they come I think. Not needing

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

2016 2:19 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ? You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond. Bruce     O

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>, Bruce Griffiths writes: >The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of >the traditional mixer. Yes, but does that really matter in this case ? The interesting output will be

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Poul-Henning wrote: My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD. Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD, and to be honest I fail to see the attraction. Why wouldn't a analog

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Poul-Henning, On 01/05/2016 10:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>, Bruce Griffiths writes: The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer. Yes, but does that

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:37:00 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com>, Bruce Griffiths writes: > >The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of > >the traditional mixer. > Yes, but

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Mini-circuits has packaged phase detectors plug-in, surface, and with connectors for $20 TO $70. Diode bridges with transformers. They also have cheap wideband amps. Bet a simple DDMTD could be built with these? I know...I wish I did have the time at present. Happy New Year! Don Magnus Danielson

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Hi Poul-Henning, On 01/06/2016 12:28 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message <568c46b9.4020...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

In message <568c46b9.4020...@rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes: >The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to >jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the >trigger-circuit. Digitize the LPF output and do a curve-fit to find the

Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

You mean DMTD =  dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers / shift registers instead of a pair of mixers. Bruce On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 12:03 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote: Poul-Henning