Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-29 Thread Alex Pummer
it is a way to use a carrier fc to make one SSB signal with fm modulation frequency, use just the side-band, , which have a frequency of fc + fm = fR, [fR/fc is a function of the SSB modulator carrier suppression capability,] fm could be from less than 1/2 fc any frequency to zero, if it is

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-29 Thread Attila Kinali
On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 00:26:07 + (UTC) Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeeping Systems I quickly went over the papers people have pointed me at. Without having gone through all the math, the idea for choosing the PLL values

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-28 Thread Bruce Griffiths
Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeeping Systems |   | |   | |   |   |   |   |   | | Diophantine Frequency Synthesizer Design for Timekeepi...Abstract Diophantine Frequency Synthesis (DFS), a number-theoretic approach to the design of very high resolution frequency synthesizers,

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-28 Thread Attila Kinali
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 14:06:09 -0700 Alex Pummer wrote: > On 7/28/2016 11:03 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 + (UTC) > > Bruce Griffiths wrote: > > > >> No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs >

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-28 Thread Alex Pummer
if you send the circuit to me Attila, I would try to help you 73 KJ6UHN Alex by the way aside of that ham license, I have some fifty years of experience and also an MSEE On 7/28/2016 11:03 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 + (UTC) Bruce Griffiths

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-28 Thread Attila Kinali
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:19:43 + (UTC) Bruce Griffiths wrote: > No, the first one merely uses a pair of cascaded heterodyne PLLs > as shown on p3 of the manual. Ok. I tried to understand how this circuit works. While I can see how a small and precise frequency

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-25 Thread Bob Camp
Hi A typical double oven design runs about 10 mw or so in the circuitry in the inner oven. The “stuff” inside the outer oven likely doubles that number. The rest of the circuit is put outside the outer oven to reduce heat rise. There could be another 40 mw in that part of the circuit.

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-24 Thread Hal Murray
> 24 bit DAC Which chip are you using? How many useful bits do you think you will get? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-24 Thread James Flynn
Richard (Rick) Karlquist writes: > The last thing you want in an oven is a lot of > added thermal overhead, especially in a double oven > where you already fighting against running out of > temperature range. If you want to ovenize everything > but the kitchen sink, put it in it's

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-24 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
On 7/24/2016 6:44 AM, James Flynn wrote: Hal Murray writes: Has anybody put the DAC and all of the analog stuff inside the oven? Seems like an obvious idea so somebody has probably patented it. I am using a 5 MHz custom built design which has everything inside the outer oven

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-24 Thread James Flynn
Hal Murray writes: > That still leaves the temperature quirks of the DAC and amplifiers. > > Has anybody put the DAC and all of the analog stuff inside the oven? Seems > like an obvious idea so somebody has probably patented it. > I am using a 5 MHz custom built design which

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Charles Steinmetz
Hal wrote: There are 2 markets for DACs and ADCs. I'll call them DC and RF, but the RF goes down to audio. In the DC market, the data sheet talks about linearity and usually covers temperature stability. * * * In the RF market, nobody cares about temperature drift. By far the

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Chris Caudle
On Fri, July 22, 2016 2:15 pm, Hal Murray wrote: > Has anybody put the DAC and all of the analog stuff inside the oven? I ran across some OCXO's with a DAC inside the oven a few years back. They were 5MHz instead of the 10MHz I was looking for so I didn't buy them at the time. I have forgotten

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Hal Murray
att...@kinali.ch said: > You can already get 24bit DAC's off the shelf from TI (DAC1282). I do not > know how stable they are in reality. ... There are 2 markets for DACs and ADCs. I'll call them DC and RF, but the RF goes down to audio. In the DC market, the data sheet talks about linearity

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Hal Murray
rich...@karlquist.com said: > That's what we tried to do with the E1938A. A multiplying DAC is used based > on a reference that is ovenized instead the crystal oven. That certainly > eliminated the tempco issue with the reference, but then we discovered 1/f > noise on the reference. We had to

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message <20160722113312.f1f292c42ba086aafd6d4...@kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w rites: >You can already get 24bit DAC's off the shelf from TI (DAC1282). Precisely(!) as stable as the voltage reference you feed them. These are oversampling designs which *by definition* cannot attenuate

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
On 7/22/2016 10:15 AM, David wrote: It is too bad voltage control of an oscillator cannot be made ratiometric. Or can it? I have never heard of such a thing. That would remove some of the demands on a low drift reference. That's what we tried to do with the E1938A. A multiplying DAC

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread David
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:33:12 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:22:14 -0500 >David wrote: > >> Increased integration has only helped insofar as you can attempt >> designs which would have been prohibitive before. >> >> I keep trying to come up with a charge

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Scott Stobbe
Capacitor matching (Moore's law) has improved for switch-cap designs. Also depends on the tuning gain, 10 ppm/V would be very demanding versus 10 ppb/V. On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < rich...@karlquist.com> wrote: > > > On 7/21/2016 4:56 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Ole Petter Rønningen
SpectraDynamics HROG 5/10 http://www.spectradynamics.com/products/hrog-10-high-resolution-phase-and-frequency-offset-generator/ On 22. jul. 2016, at 09.49, Anders Wallin wrote: >> rich...@karlquist.com said: >>> Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
On 7/22/2016 2:22 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: Hoi Rick, On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 18:47:24 -0700 "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" wrote: Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and didn't have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea. If

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Attila Kinali
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:22:14 -0500 David wrote: > Increased integration has only helped insofar as you can attempt > designs which would have been prohibitive before. > > I keep trying to come up with a charge balancing design but what about > Linear Technology's solution

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Bruce Griffiths
quency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Friday, 22 July 2016 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone? > rich...@karlquist.com said: > > Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and > didn't > > have a good reputation for spectral purity. 

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-22 Thread Anders Wallin
> rich...@karlquist.com said: > > Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and > didn't > > have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea. > > What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS? > > (Google gets lots of hits, but they all

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Hal Murray
rich...@karlquist.com said: > Also in 1996, phase microsteppers were already legacy technology and didn't > have a good reputation for spectral purity. Another non-panacea. What is a phase microstepper and/or how does it compare to a DDS? (Google gets lots of hits, but they all refer to

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread David
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 18:47:24 -0700, you wrote: >On 7/21/2016 4:56 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote: > >> Oh my. That’s a bit more than I was originally considering… What I had in >> mind was adding a DAC front end to an OCXO so that you could tune the EFC >> with serial commands rather than

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
On 7/21/2016 4:56 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote: Oh my. That’s a bit more than I was originally considering… What I had in mind was adding a DAC front end to an OCXO so that you could tune the EFC with serial commands rather than analog and calling that a product. 20 years ago when

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Bob Camp
esolution phase measurement >> technique was confirmed with the PicoPak project: >> >> http://www.wriley.com/PicoPak%20App%20Notes%20Links.htm >> >> So, yes, please take the bait and play with all aspects of your NCOCXO idea. >> >> /tvb >> >>

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Bob Camp
Hi > On Jul 21, 2016, at 7:17 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > In message <4763643485B04450A76F7C04BA8CFB63@pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes: > >> There are highly-prized commercial instruments that do this. But >> no amateur has tried yet. > > It would be more

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Nick Sayer via time-nuts
confirmed with the PicoPak project: > > http://www.wriley.com/PicoPak%20App%20Notes%20Links.htm > > So, yes, please take the bait and play with all aspects of your NCOCXO idea. > > /tvb > > - Original Message - > From: "Nick Sayer via time-nuts"

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message <4763643485B04450A76F7C04BA8CFB63@pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes: >There are highly-prized commercial instruments that do this. But >no amateur has tried yet. It would be more precise to say that no amateur has been willing to talk about their results yet. I personally know

Re: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Tom Van Baak
-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 10:05 AM Subject: [time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone? > Would anyone see any value in a board that had an OH300 with a serial > interface for tuning? > > I had a thought perhaps to make one starting with my GPSDO and just ditching > the GPS par

[time-nuts] NCOCXO anyone?

2016-07-21 Thread Nick Sayer via time-nuts
Would anyone see any value in a board that had an OH300 with a serial interface for tuning? I had a thought perhaps to make one starting with my GPSDO and just ditching the GPS part and possibly adding an RS-232 level converter. I could conceivably bring it all out to a DB9 and emulate an