Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Lady Heather has support for setting the system clock from the GPS receiver. The next release has support for analyzing and compensating for the GPS / system / com port message delay. It does not use the 1PPS signal.

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Mark, Do you have a likely date for the availability of the new release (other than RSN)? Cheers Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Sent: 04 October 2016 18:40 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 10/6/2016 8:10 PM, Wes wrote: Although I personally ceased pursuing this activity many years ago, there remain some of us, who are not Luddites, but still believe that "Deep Search Decoding" is a questionable practice, no matter how it is rationalized. "Deep Search Decoding" of the JT

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 10/6/16 11:15 AM, William H. Fite wrote: Indeed, Nick. And more than a little (usually) courteous one upmanship couched in terms of being helpful by correcting all previous posters. This gentlemanly "mine is bigger than yours" phenomenon is part of what makes this group fun to read. Except

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

asurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 11:15 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help > > > Indeed, Nick. And more than a little (usually) courteous one upmanship > couched in terms of being helpful by correcting all previous posters. This

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

; <omni...@gmail.com> To: "Nick Sayer" <nsa...@kfu.com>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help Indeed, Nick. And more than a little (

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi Often the dive into the fine details is all that is left without guidance from the OP. After a few days (here or elsewhere) it can get pretty deep …. Bob > On Oct 6, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts > wrote: > > To be fair, this is at least partly because

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Indeed, Nick. And more than a little (usually) courteous one upmanship couched in terms of being helpful by correcting all previous posters. This gentlemanly "mine is bigger than yours" phenomenon is part of what makes this group fun to read. On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Nick Sayer via

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 10/5/2016 7:40 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: There was a time when HAMs where the ones pushing radio technology forward. Maybe these guys are doing that and building a digital EME network on VHF? We don't know. Actually, we do know. Regarding my earlier comments, I believe at the time

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

To be fair, this is at least partly because asking a relatively simple question here routinely turns into a dissertation defense. > On Oct 6, 2016, at 3:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > > Hi > > That’s very typical in a lot of forums. The OP tosses up a question and then > pretty much

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi That’s very typical in a lot of forums. The OP tosses up a question and then pretty much vanishes. My observation is that roughly 80% of the “I have a question” threads work that way. I’ve never been able to figure out if it is an expectation that all answers will arrive in an hour or two

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Given the number of replies to the OP, most pointed but others drifting OT, it is remarkable that there has been no comment or feedback from Larry. He has slung his bottle and gone away it seems. > Le 5 oct. 2016 à 23:58, Bob Camp a écrit : > > Hi > > Given that this is for

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: > The problem is harder then most people think. To avoid jumps in time either > forward or backwards the software must be something that runs continuously > and monitors your clock vs. one or more reference clocks. Logically there > is no other way. I think it

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

There was a time when HAMs where the ones pushing radio technology forward. Maybe these guys are doing that and building a digital EME network on VHF? We don't know. We can guess but typically when you start wanting precise time synchronization it is because of something like TDMA (time

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

First off you are right, NTP does not run well as it can with only a single reference. But that is a general statement and assumes there is some error in a reference clock. Certainly if using Internet pool servers as reference clocks you want to have 5 to 7 of them. But GPS is so darn good

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi Given that this is for intermittent EME use, it’s not a system that has uber reliability as a requirement. Once you get the antenna up in a reasonable location a GPS is going to be pretty stable and reliable. If you have an EME array running, adding a GPS antenna to it probably not a big

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

I agree that the built in Microsoft tools are SNTP only and will not work at the 15ms level. I have had excellent success with Windows PC's of many vintages, from XP through Windows 10, using Meinberg NTPD and the "pool.ntp.org" timeservers. Tim N3QE On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 12:41 AM, Larry Hower

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Yo Bob! On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 07:14:30 -0400 Bob Camp wrote: > If you buy a GPS receiver and get it set up for timing …. just use > it. Then there is no need for NTP at all…. Assuming your GPS never farts and always has a good lock. A pretty good assumption, but not a perfect one.

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Yo Chris! On Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:19:10 -0500 "Chris Caudle" wrote: > On Wed, October 5, 2016 6:14 am, Bob Camp wrote: > > If you buy a GPS receiver and get it set up for timing, just use it. > > Then there is no need for NTP at all. > > Is there another way to get

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 2016-10-05 10:22 , Jay Grizzard wrote: Because NTP normally never actually sets you clock to match a server's clock. It adjusts the RATE of your clock so the it cruises on the middle of the pack of vetted servers. To be nitpicky, it doesn't actually track towards the median, it tracks

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

In practice I'm not convinced the timing requirements for the JT modes in question are even more than a single order of magnitude more severe than the when I have been timing 15 second sequences on my wrist watch during manual non computer aided weak signal operations. To recap if some one has

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

If you are working "real" EME where you, and not a computer plus lookup table, are coping the signals, none of these precise timing issues exist. Wes N7WS On 10/5/2016 6:18 AM, Peter Torry via time-nuts wrote: I must admit to being rather puzzled at the sub microsecond timing requirement as

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On Wed, October 5, 2016 6:14 am, Bob Camp wrote: > If you buy a GPS receiver and get it set up for timing, just use it. > Then there is no need for NTP at all. Is there another way to get computer system time set from a GPS receiver other than NTP? In the case that the system clock is controlled

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Yes I'd be curious in knowing more about this as well. I've often observed time differences from other stations of several tenths of a second when running the JT modes on HF. Although I am beginner at EME I have made a couple of EME (earth moon earth) JT65 contacts on VHF without taking any

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

I must admit to being rather puzzled at the sub microsecond timing requirement as I use ntp to set the W7 clock in my computer and have not had any issues. In fact less than one second is OK for the usual two minute periods that are required to allow for the Faraday rotation. Although I use a

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

For the group. This ham is trying to work EME. Earth-Moon-Earth propagation path. Aka, "moonbounce." He is trying to time synchronize a system, where the other station he is communicating with can be any other place on the Earth that can also see the Moon. So the system time sync is for a little

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi If you buy a GPS receiver and get it set up for timing …. just use it. Then there is no need for NTP at all…. Bob > On Oct 5, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Chris Albertson > wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >> If: >>

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If: > > 1) You are a typical Ham in a home environment > 2) All the servers are “out there” on the internet > 3) You have any of the normal modems feeding your home > > You have a very basic issue in terms of path delay. All

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: > The problem, I think with your Internet sync's NTP servers is you are only > using one server S. The most common practice is to use 3 to 5 with 5 being > about the right number. If you get Ntp enough Internet

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi If: 1) You are a typical Ham in a home environment 2) All the servers are “out there” on the internet 3) You have any of the normal modems feeding your home You have a very basic issue in terms of path delay. All the servers you can access have the *same* asymmetric delay. In that case, no

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

The problem, I think with your Internet sync's NTP servers is you are only using one server S. The most common practice is to use 3 to 5 with 5 being about the right number. If you get Ntp enough Internet servers to work with it can detect problem like asymmetric path lengths which I'm sure is

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On Tue, 4 Oct 2016 15:41:58 +1100 Larry Hower wrote: > Ultimately we want sub-millisecond accuracy. If you want to go that way, you will have to leave windows as this operating system does not offer the facilities to get down to such a low levelUnless you calibrate the

[time-nuts] Need Time Help

Lady Heather has support for setting the system clock from the GPS receiver. The next release has support for analyzing and compensating for the GPS / system / com port message delay. It does not use the 1PPS signal. It can get the Windoze clock to under 40 msecs (two times the typical

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

I think to sum up what has been written 1) USB connection will not work well for timing 2) Notebook computers dont work well for timing 3) A good NTP server on your LAN can get you "close" to what you need even on PC notebooks 4) With effort and a real serial port and after downloading a copy of

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 10/4/2016 6:41 AM, Larry Hower wrote: > Hello to the List: Hi and welcome! > After a long and bitter struggle with XP and WIN 10, I am writing to ask > for some help in solving some problems we have been having in our attempt > to establish a very accurate time reference for use in EME

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

] On Behalf Of dl...@yahoo.de via time-nuts Sent: 04 October 2016 07:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help Hello Larry, for Windows i know only one piece of software that is able to set the system clock within a few milliseconds. Dimension4

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

; To: <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2016 9:41 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Need Time Help Hello to the List: After a long and bitter struggle with XP and WIN 10, I am writing to ask for some help in solving some problems we have been having in our attempt to establish a very a

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On 10/4/16 6:26 AM, Graham / KE9H wrote: Larry: You have multiple problems, with the way you are trying to define "time-error." I think you are defining it as the time error of the signal coming out of your receivers/decoders. You are blending all the error/delay sources together, and you

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

. Chris DL3HC - Nachricht beantworten - Von: "Larry Hower" <ho...@hower.net> An: <time-nuts@febo.com> Betreff: [time-nuts] Need Time Help Datum: Di., Okt. 4, 2016 06:41 Hello to the List: After a long and bitter struggle with XP and WIN 10, I am writing to ask fo

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

From: Graham / KE9H Larry: [] First, the reflector has already jumped in and helped you with the definition of absolute time. You can get single digit millisecond accuracy (with some caviats and bewares) from NTP, for stations at different locations. You should be able to get single digit

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Larry: You have multiple problems, with the way you are trying to define "time-error." I think you are defining it as the time error of the signal coming out of your receivers/decoders. You are blending all the error/delay sources together, and you need to break them apart, since each one will

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hi As others have mentioned, you have two strikes against you: 1) Modern laptops *love* power saving. That makes them poor time keepers at the millisecond level. It takes some well thought out software in the OS to keep track of all the strange things they do. 2) Windows XP is getting a bit

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

What's being transmitted? If it's a repetitive message would it be possible to inhibit transmission using an external time source, perhaps a PIC or even a Pi inhibiting the "PTT", leaving the windows box in control of what's transmitted or do the Windows boxes have to communicate with each other

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

From: Hal Murray david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said: You can use a GPS puck or equivalent with PPS output to get the sort of accuracy you need. ..: PPS output is only half the battle. You also have to get it into the system that needs it. A modem control signal on an old fashioned serial

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

You can find some information here : https://www.meinberg.de/download/burnicki/time_synchronization_accuracy_with_ntp.pdf Please note the resolution of the system time in Win XP is only about 16 ms. The NTP service tries to extrapolate the system time to yield better resolution, but applications

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said: > You can use a GPS puck or equivalent with PPS output to get the sort of > accuracy you need. ..: PPS output is only half the battle. You also have to get it into the system that needs it. A modem control signal on an old fashioned serial port (not USB)

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Larry Hower wrote: > > > 1. We are using desktops and laptops in separate locations running XP or > Win 10. > Assuming you have decent GPS receivers with an un-obstructed view of the sky with 1 pulse per second output and you have let the GPS run

Re: [time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hello to the List: After a long and bitter struggle with XP and WIN 10, I am writing to ask for some help in solving some problems we have been having in our attempt to establish a very accurate time reference for use in EME activities. We are hoping to achieve less than 5ms deviation, although

[time-nuts] Need Time Help

Hello to the List: After a long and bitter struggle with XP and WIN 10, I am writing to ask for some help in solving some problems we have been having in our attempt to establish a very accurate time reference for use in EME activities. We are hoping to achieve less than 5ms deviation, although