On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Steve Wiseman wrote:
>
> There are mailing lists for this stuff, chaps - openpnp, firepick,
> versatronics, plenty of others. All full of people finding out that,
> like everything, it's trickier than you first think. See you over
> there, let time nuts be time nu
OpenPNP has a set of drivers for each class of PNP machine. One of the
drivers outputs LinuxCNC g-code, They already have other drivers for other
kinds of machines, maybe 8 or 10 in total.
Yes you could translate centroid files to G-code but that is exactly what
openPNP does. It does a little m
If OpenPnp generates a gcode file for a particular CNC controller (say Linux
CNC) my program can easily translate it into something pretty much any other
CNC machine can read (including some machines that have not existed for over 40
years). It would not be hard to add the ability to read a sta
Hi
The vision stuff comes in a few ways:
1) Your board needs to be aligned to the machine. There may or may not be
accurate holes in the board to do this.
Doing it with holes still leaves you with the need to get the board location
“into” the machine’s coordinate system.
2) Tapes come in fair
On 25 June 2016 at 05:28, Mark Sims wrote:
> Vision system is nice, but a decent CNC is more than accurate enough for
> 0402 sized parts. Again, surface tension is your friend.
There's often more positional slop within the tape pocket than the pin
pitch, for components more tricky than 0402s.
I have seen pick and place systems built around CNC machines (same applies to
3D printers). The reel strips are fed through a slotted guide. The pickup
head has a finger (or some use the pickup nozzle... a flat tipped hypodermic
needle) that is used to advance the reel. It drops down into th
On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 12:41:05 -0500
Oz-in-DFW wrote:
> On 6/24/2016 8:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> > The advantage of "professional"
> > companies like Alktech over "hobbyist" companies like macrofab is,
> > that you get full professional support while the price does not differ much.
> > E.g. wh
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Don Latham wrote:
> I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a
> 3-d printer.
You are not the first to think of this. But the problem is
1) moving the reels of parts,
2) programming the machine. Translating the PCB design
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
> The trick is to use semi-manual pick&place machines for low volumes.
> Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
> faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
> with a pure manual process
I've done a over one hundred boards with a Kapton stencil without any problems
(0603 size parts) and 50 boards with a stencil cut out of vellum paper (a
plasticized paper available at craft stores, red cuts very well with 405nm
lasers) by my home-made laser cutter head for a desktop CNC mill
Hi
A “low cost” auto pick and place does have some things in common with a 3D
printer:
Drive is by stepper motors
Micro stepping stepper motor drivers are used
Belt drive is pretty common
Tube support and circular ball bearings are generally used
You have X, Y and Z drive
Very custom software to
On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 20:01:24 +0100, you wrote:
>...
>
>I definitely concur with the 'make it SMT as much as possible' plan -
>pin-mount stuff is a pain. Also, QFN is far preferable to QFP, as
>catalogue suppliers don't always manage to ship fine-pitch stuff
>without bending legs in one direction o
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:28 PM, Jay Grizzard
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
>
> Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
> range?
I sell a reflow oven conversion kit on Tind
On 24 June 2016 at 14:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Unlike what most people seem to think, small batches of PCBs have always
> been a business for some assembly companies.
For my sins, I am one of those... (Cambridge, UK).
Yes - semi-manual assembly is the way it goes, especially for the
active par
Don Latham said
to Discussion
I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on
a 3-d printer.
Lots of problems to be solved...
How do you take loose parts or cut tape or tape reels and get the right
part out, and into the chuck, oriented in the right direction?
How man
You know, this thread has had a tremendous amount of practical information,
with actual URLs, etc. Would someone be willing to consolidate the info on a
web page somewhere?
> On Jun 24, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Oz-in-DFW wrote:
>
> On 6/23/2016 10:53 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>>> Am I missing some
Hi
If you are doing a board with a few hundred parts on it (as earlier mentioned).
And have designed
a “3D printer” pick and place that runs one reel at a time. And are running the
printer slow to keep
everything from going all over the place. And have a manual reel advance (no
feeder) ….
I c
On 6/24/2016 8:23 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:28:15 + (UTC)
> Bob Stewart wrote:
Lotsa stuff deleted
>> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
>> What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards. My GPSDOs
>> have about 120 parts p
On 6/24/2016 9:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> Oz-in-DFW wrote:
>> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
> Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
> they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stenci
Hi:
For IC pitches of 0.050" (1.27mm) hand soldering works fine, even for my vision
when a stereo microscope is used.
Elmer's glue to hold the chips is place.
Getting boards from ExpressPCB that have solder mask helps to prevent bridging.
Here is an example:
http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml
I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a
3-d printer.
Don
> On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> Oz-in-DFW wrote:
>
>> 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
>>"small" one
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
Oz-in-DFW wrote:
> 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
> "small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
> 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
> using them continuously each new run is a new and
On 6/23/2016 9:36 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the
> board, it has a very
> limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your
> soldering quality can
> suffer quite a bit.
>
> Bob
>
For most of t
On 6/23/2016 10:53 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>> Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
>
> A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
> toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
> thermometer and wrist watch.I
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:28:15 + (UTC)
Bob Stewart wrote:
> One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
> What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards. My GPSDOs
> have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors.
> Is there a s
Take a look at the oven at http://whizoo.com/buy . They sell several kits as
well as a complete kit to modify a toaster oven, and a ready-to-go oven for
$699, shipping included. According to the web site, it uses a B&D model
T01303SB toaster oven, capable of handling an 8"x10.5" board.
The oven
I’ve been doing SMT assembly for 40 years. I have never ever seen anybody with
a process
that “just worked”. They all involve some amount of fine tuning and design
optimization.
Hi,
Yep, The amount of tweaking required to get a good board build can be
extensive. Part density, ground plane,
Disclaimer: I've not used any of these yet. New style assembly houses
are MUCH cheaper than traditional proto shops. The ones I'm planning on
trying are:
Macrofab (Houston) https://macrofab.com/
pcb:ng http://pcb.ng/index.html (currently in beta with **deep**
discounts. $1/sq in + BoM cost
--
GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
On Thu, 6/23/16, Oz-in-DFW wrote:
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping
board
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement&qu
kb...@n1k.org said:
> Iâve been doing SMT assembly for 40 years. I have never ever seen anybody
> with a process that âjust workedâ. They all involve some amount of fine
> tuning and design optimization.
As an example... I remember supplying dead chips to the fab house so they
could cal
I'll second this, and suggest you consider:
1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
using them continuously each new run is a new and different
exp
>
> Am I missing some obvious cheapie oven without these types of problems?
A lot of people are building them from Black and Decker (and the like)
toaster ovens. Use Arduino for controller or just eyeballs. oven
thermometer and wrist watch.It is not rocket science the Arduino
controller soft
Hi
The gotcha with “really slow” is that once you print the solder paste on the
board, it has a very
limited “open air” life. If you don’t get the board done fairly quickly, your
soldering quality can
suffer quite a bit.
Bob
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Chris Albertson
> wrote:
>
> This
We use
"Advanced Assembly" in Colorado for prototype assembly.
http://aa-pcbassembly.com/
For just one or two boards, it is faster to hand solder the parts, as long
as no BGA's or similar.
If complex soldering like BGAs, or more than three boards, we use a proto
assembly house.
--- Graham
==
O
Aside from using the toaster oven reflow controller from SparkFun?
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 21:28, Jay Grizzard wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
>> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
>
> Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in t
Hi
Both the T962 and the T962A’s work ok. You need to re-tape them and re-flash
the
firmware. They *are* IR reflow machines and you have to design with that in
mind. The IR
process has never been a good idea for 85C rated black cased plastic
capacitors. Is it
better or worse than a converted t
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:28:00PM +, Mark Sims wrote:
> A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300.
Do you (or anyone) have suggestions for usable reflow ovens in this price
range? Every time I've gone looking on Amazon, I've found ovens which
(according to reviews) had cycle timers were *horr
This is a very important topic for anyone who wants to build state of
the art electronic today. You can't continue to live in the 1970s
using DIP parts with 0.1 inch leads. So how to make small batches of
custom designs.
The pick and place machine could be very inexpensive if you are
willing to
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts
wrote:
> It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit
> like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit
> cost after that is quite low, which favors volume.
>
> Any way you slice it
Hi
Right now the dividing line for a fully automatic machine is at about $3K. For
below that you can get a machine without vision. For a bit above that you can
get a machine with dual camera (one up / one down) vision capability. You
quickly spiral up in cost as you add auto change pick heads,
There are fairly decent small pick-and-place machines you can get for <$3000.
A usable re-flow oven can be had for $300. At these costs, it does not take
many outside assembly house runs to pay for the machinery... maybe even one.
If your board has components on only one side, the do-it-your
let this die. Thanks for the responses!
>
> Bob
>
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
>
> ----
> On Thu, 6/23/16
On 6/23/16 2:56 PM, jimlux wrote:
On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind.
What about the other side of building: stuffing the boards. My GPSDOs
have about 120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA
connectors. Is t
e-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping
board
To: "Bob Stewart" , "Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement"
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2016, 5:27 PM
Hi
Around here, assuming:
1) You supply all the parts on full reels with
leaders
2) There is
Hi
Around here, assuming:
1) You supply all the parts on full reels with leaders
2) There is no hand assembly work
3) You already have framed stencils that are the correct size for their gear
4) You have multiple proper solder and placement fiducials on both sides
5) The boards are designed to
On 6/23/16 12:28 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:
One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind. What
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards. My GPSDOs have about
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors. Is there a
service out there that w
I’ve done quite a bit of this. My assembler of choice is Small Batch Assembly.
It all sort of depends on what you call “reasonable.” PNP assembly is a bit
like PCB fab in that there are rather large set-up costs and the per-unit cost
after that is quite low, which favors volume.
Any way you sli
One more related question before this topic dies, if you don't mind. What
about the other side of building: stuffing the boards. My GPSDOs have about
120 parts per board, plus some custom work on the SMA connectors. Is there a
service out there that will populate boards with SMT components fo
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