Having two HP CBT's minus enclosure sitting on my window sill, allow me to
ad my two cents worth. Looking at the assemblies I see more art than
science and duplicating something like that would most likely end in failure.
Comparing that to the previous H Maser discussions the collective know
On 01/15/2011 11:20 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Hi Robert,
From: Robert Vassar rvas...@rob-vassar.com
You could probably safely handle a small quantity of Rb in a home lab
environment for a short period of time. Pure Cesium would be a
significant risk.
As you can see on page 28 vials remains
Hi Magnus,
From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
As you can see on page 28 vials remains untouched till everythings are
in place
and else broken.
No, do read at page 27 first. There is some handling in a glove-box filled
with argon and movement from that one before final
On 01/16/2011 04:38 PM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Hi Magnus,
From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
As you can see on page 28 vials remains untouched till everythings are
in place
and else broken.
No, do read at page 27 first. There is some handling in a glove-box
filled with argon
The vials are commonly broken in vaccuo with a magnet and steel plunger.
-John
===
Hi Magnus,
From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
As you can see on page 28 vials remains untouched till everythings are
in place
and else broken.
No, do read at page 27 first. There
What interested me was the beam collimator. I'd thought the beam would be
collimated and small diameter like a LASER, but the setup clearly is to
produve a beam of Cs maybe 1 to 1.5 inches in diameter.
-John
=
On 01/16/2011 04:38 PM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Hi Magnus,
From:
By the way that is why I repeatedly have asked the list if there is any
long term Tbolt data out there comparing the 1 PPS or the 10 MHz with a Maser.
I hope this is worth two cents.
Bert Kehren
Bert,
Here's a 4+ day run between a TBolt 10 MHz and maser.
Phase samples are 1 Hz, units are
Thank you. Bert Kehren
In a message dated 1/16/2011 12:03:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
hol...@hotmail.com writes:
Baring any holdover events, the long term output of a properly configured
tbolt should exceed any single cesium source or maser. If you assume the
1 PPS signal is
Hi
While I agree with the idea of a super GPS as being a good standard, there
are some reasons for needing something else:
1) You need something to compare *your* GPS gizmo to in your setting. Knowing
that it might be working ok is not as good as knowing that it is working ok.
2) Without some
1 OR 1.5 INCHES IS ONLY ONE OF THE DIMENSIONS.
THE OTHER ONE IS SMALLER, AND THE BEAM IS NOT CIRCULAR ( OR NOT CONICAL).
At 17:44 16.1.2011, you wrote:
What interested me was the beam collimator. I'd thought the beam would be
collimated and small diameter like a LASER, but the setup
Hi Robert,
From: Robert Vassar rvas...@rob-vassar.com
You could probably safely handle a small quantity of Rb in a home lab
environment for a short period of time. Pure Cesium would be a
significant risk.
As you can see on page 28 vials remains untouched till everythings are in
place
Tom
That is one thing I noticed even without the CS the system is very stable
with the Xtal.
My comment was tagging on to a previous one and I couldn't resist the fact
that I get might old stuff.
Good comment on the standard. Indeed I run my 5065 every month or so for a
day or two insuring its
Before this indelible conversation goes too far, note that cesium beam
frequency standards are explicitly included on the U.S. ITAR list under
§121.IV.28 and that, under §120.10.a, this prohibits the dissemination of
(1) Information, other than software as defined in § 120.10(d), which is
Hi,
I can get a 00105-6013 xtal oscillator that is the type used in the
5051A and 5065 standards. Does it worth for a standalone frequency
standard or the more modern compact types such the miniature units from
the telco towers salvage coming from China are more convenient?
I realize that I
In your dreams.
There was a very nice HP Cs there a few years ago, but it had a properety
tag that I recognized. I knew that unit had a known bad Cs tube, as I seen
it at a company surplus sale a month before, but that didn't stop the guy
hawking it as working for well over $5K.
Caveat Emptor!!
Hi,
From: Robert Lutwak rlut...@gmail.com
Before this indelible conversation goes too far, note that cesium beam
frequency standards are explicitly included on the U.S. ITAR list under
§121.IV.28 and that, under §120.10.a, this prohibits the dissemination of
:-)
-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of EB4APL
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:05 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
Hi,
I can get a 00105-6013 xtal oscillator that is the type used in the
5051A and 5065 standards. Does
measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
...We're still waiting to see if they can figure out
how make 5071 CBT's on the east coast, let alone
someone's garage
Rick...what did you mean by on the east coast? Just curious.
73, Jeff W3KL
Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA
+1-609-638
Van Baak; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
Tom
That is one thing I noticed even without the CS the system is very stable
with the Xtal.
My comment was tagging on to a previous one and I couldn't resist the fact
that I get might old
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:34 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
On 1/14/11 6:55 AM, Robert Lutwak wrote:
Before this indelible conversation goes too far, note that cesium beam
frequency standards are explicitly included on the U.S. ITAR list under
§121.IV.28 and that, under §120.10.a, this prohibits the dissemination of
(1) Information, other than software
On 1/14/11 8:12 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Hi,
From: Robert Lutwak rlut...@gmail.com
Before this indelible conversation goes too far, note that cesium beam
frequency standards are explicitly included on the U.S. ITAR list under
§121.IV.28 and that, under §120.10.a, this prohibits the
In message 4d30be89.8050...@earthlink.net, jimlux writes:
On 1/14/11 8:12 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Sadly, it has been made abundantly clear to me and my colleagues that
merely because something is published in the open literature does not
make it export-control free. We are specifically
] On
Behalf Of jimlux
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 4:22 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
On 1/14/11 8:12 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Hi,
From: Robert Lutwak rlut...@gmail.com
Before this indelible conversation goes too far, note that cesium beam
frequency
14, 2011 4:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
In message 4d30be89.8050...@earthlink.net, jimlux writes:
On 1/14/11 8:12 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote:
Sadly, it has been made abundantly clear to me and my colleagues
Hi,
From: jimlux jim...@earthlink.net
pretty much anything in space is a defense article)
I can't imagine they could have done such mistake!
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2doc=GetTRDoc.pdfAD=ADA509345
(second page)
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2001/paper2.pdf
Bye,
...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of EB4APL
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:05 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
Hi,
I can get a 00105-6013 xtal oscillator that is the type used in the
5051A and 5065 standards. Does it worth for a standalone frequency
standard
On Jan 14, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Well that crosses off any discussion of Tang as a breakfast drink
(You would indeed need to be fairly old to remember the TV commercials
selling it based on it's space connection).
Bob
Tang is a good example of a
Tang was a WMD (Weapon of Massive Disgust) in and of itself.
-John
On Jan 14, 2011, at 1:45 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
Well that crosses off any discussion of Tang as a breakfast drink
(You would indeed need to be fairly old to remember the TV commercials
On Jan 13, 2011, at 5:18 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
The other problem for the garage builder is that one of the Rb
isotopes is slightly radioactive. Probably not OK to have
in your garage.
I used to perform Rb/Sr geochronology wet bench chemistry in
college. Rb-87 has a half-life on
I used to perform Rb/Sr geochronology wet bench chemistry in
college. Rb-87 has a half-life on the order of ~48.8 billion years.
Several multiples of the estimated age of the universe. The
potassium-40 in your own body is a much greater threat, followed by
C-14, and various natural
I think any pure alkali metal basically has to be handled in a good vacuum
and moved around by distillation. It's easy enough as you are concerned
with grams, at most, not pounds of the stuff.
-John
You obviously didn't see the Myth Busters episode where they used
several pounds of sodium to
It may not be necessary to open a tube to renew the supply of an
alkali metal.
I remember an experiment where an incandescent light bulb was dipped
into molten sodium chloride in an iron vessel.
The filament was run and a voltage between the filament and the iron
vessel caused sodium ions to
I suppose that would be possible if a C beam standard worked like a rubidium
reference, but alas, they are different in virtually all respects.
Think of the C beam as having a small kettle full of cesium that is put
on a low simmer. The kettle keeps the cesium molten, and bubbling up minute
It sounds like you need to dip a corner of the device in liquid nitrogen
and allow the metal to evaporate and condense in the cold corner.
Or is it sublimation.
I do not know how long it would take.
cheers, Neville Michie
On 13/01/2011, at 11:31 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
I suppose that would
Really interesting thread. About a year ago on this thread the same
discussion occurred.
Several thoughts along these lines and frankly I know little accept for what
I read here and online.
I would agree the CS never runs out. Accept for one minor point. We tend to
get these things way beyond HPs
On 1/13/11 4:59 AM, paul swed wrote:
Really interesting thread. About a year ago on this thread the same
discussion occurred.
Several thoughts along these lines and frankly I know little accept for what
I read here and online.
I would agree the CS never runs out. Accept for one minor point. We
You might find it interesting to look up the vapor pressure of
cesium at room temperature.
To get the cesium to transport from where it has deposited to your
cold corner would require heating the whole tube up to where the
cesium would vaporize. I can't help but think that heating everything
in
Sure it would be lots of fun making your own tube or rebuilding a bad one.
This, my favorite internet video, is not exactly about caesium beam
tubes, but at least shows some of the required skills, as well as how
much fun it can be.
As I said last go-round, I think the chances of rebuilding an HP Cs tube
are slim to none.
BUT, if you were really dedicated, I think you could build up the physics
package from pretty much standard stuff, like the Kimball Physics gun
parts and Conflat SS vacuum hardware, etc. Check Duniway.
-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:24 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CS reservoir depletion
As I said last go-round, I think the chances
Really interesting thread. About a year ago on this thread the same
discussion occurred.
Several thoughts along these lines and frankly I know little accept for what
I read here and online.
I would agree the CS never runs out. Accept for one minor point. We tend to
huh?
get these things way
Hi Tom been quite a while hope you are well.
The never run out comments, not from me. Look at the previous thread I
tagged onto. My humor is that most of the CS tubes we get are very long in
the tooth usually way past whatever anyone would say they are good for.
However my 5065 Rb is still going
On 13/01/11 17:24, J. Forster wrote:
As I said last go-round, I think the chances of rebuilding an HP Cs tube
are slim to none.
BUT, if you were really dedicated, I think you could build up the physics
package from pretty much standard stuff, like the Kimball Physics gun
parts and Conflat SS
I'm not so sure handling the Cs is all that different from handling Na.
You basically distill it in glass from where you break the vial to where
it wants to ultimately be, under high vacuum. Actually, moving Rb is
essentially the same too.
I'd imagine building a Cs unit might be a bit easier
On 13/01/11 18:27, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I certainly agree with that. The tubes in a portable cesium are done so
they fit inside a specific box. In a lot of ways bigger is better if you are
going to do it yourself. It would not at all be a trivial undertaking. It
also would not be cheap.
Cs
Magnus Danielson wrote:
experimentation and learning. The HP/Symmetricom efforts spans from the
60thies. Many steps of improvement, of which only some is found in
papers and patents. But they have left such traces too. There are many
practical solutions which can be learned from the archives.
On 13/01/11 22:55, Rick Karlquist wrote:
Magnus Danielson wrote:
experimentation and learning. The HP/Symmetricom efforts spans from the
60thies. Many steps of improvement, of which only some is found in
papers and patents. But they have left such traces too. There are many
practical solutions
J. Forster wrote:
I'd imagine building a Cs unit might be a bit easier than an H MASER, but
not by much. Certainly a Rb is easier.
-John
Other than the glassware, building an Rb is entirely possible
in your garage, at least if you are a certifiable time nut.
This is based on the HP 10816
Lead is slightly radioactive. Presumably the person building the device
would either source the right isotope or just use an existing vapor
container from an old unit. Of course if it was totally scratch built, I'd
still just buy the right isotope.
-Bob
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Rick
The glassware part is outlined in Strong's Proceedures in Experimental
Physics as I remember. It takes some skill, but it's not insurmountable.
Best,
-John
=
Lead is slightly radioactive. Presumably the person building the device
would either source the right isotope or
On 14/01/11 00:18, Rick Karlquist wrote:
J. Forster wrote:
I'd imagine building a Cs unit might be a bit easier than an H MASER, but
not by much. Certainly a Rb is easier.
-John
Other than the glassware, building an Rb is entirely possible
in your garage, at least if you are a certifiable
On 14/01/11 00:23, Robert Darlington wrote:
Lead is slightly radioactive. Presumably the person building the device
would either source the right isotope or just use an existing vapor
container from an old unit. Of course if it was totally scratch built, I'd
still just buy the right isotope.
Not to mention radio calcium in your bones.
-John
=
To start with, Rb-87 has a half-life of 4,88E+10 years with negative
beta-decay, i.e. an electron.
It has been judged very hard to accumulate any large amounts of it in
the body to build up to a unsafe dosage... you would pee
On 1/13/11 3:18 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
J. Forster wrote:
I'd imagine building a Cs unit might be a bit easier than an H MASER, but
not by much. Certainly a Rb is easier.
-John
Other than the glassware, building an Rb is entirely possible
in your garage, at least if you are a certifiable
Also, I already have it in the garage and does not feel overly scared by
it. I also have some Americum in a smoke-detector. There is also uranium
in the ground, causing background radiation.
yes, all true, but this is what causes my wife to worry that she will
come home from work and find a
My glassblowing friends say that it's just a matter of getting
comfortable with the oxyhydrogen torch (with a colorless flame). If you
can work with Pyrex and a oxyPropane, it's easier. They all say that
this is a basic life skill that everyone should have. Yeah, sure.
There seems to be a
On 1/13/11 2:24 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 13/01/11 22:55, Rick Karlquist wrote:
Magnus Danielson wrote:
experimentation and learning. The HP/Symmetricom efforts spans from the
60thies. Many steps of improvement, of which only some is found in
papers and patents. But they have left such
On 14/01/11 02:25, jimlux wrote:
Also, I already have it in the garage and does not feel overly scared by
it. I also have some Americum in a smoke-detector. There is also uranium
in the ground, causing background radiation.
yes, all true, but this is what causes my wife to worry that she
Magnus,
That's a very interesting paper. It has some interesting stuff on the
vacuum techniuque that's needed for Rb or more for Cs.
Do you know if anybody has actually built / is selling a Rb with a diode
light source, rather than the bulb?
Best,
-John
It seems like
On 14/01/11 03:07, J. Forster wrote:
Magnus,
That's a very interesting paper. It has some interesting stuff on the
vacuum techniuque that's needed for Rb or more for Cs.
Do you know if anybody has actually built / is selling a Rb with a diode
light source, rather than the bulb?
Not to my
Not lately I seem to remember $12K or 30K something crazy like that.
Somewhat out of an Amateurs budget. Though I should get the lotto any day
now.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Shawn Tayler sh...@xmtservices.net wrote:
So,
Has anyone priced a replacement for a 5061 tube lately? I
J. Forster wrote:
Magnus,
That's a very interesting paper. It has some interesting stuff on the
vacuum techniuque that's needed for Rb or more for Cs.
Do you know if anybody has actually built / is selling a Rb with a diode
light source, rather than the bulb?
Kernco, Symmetricom.
Best,
Hi Tom been quite a while hope you are well.
The never run out comments, not from me. Look at the
previous thread I tagged onto. My humor is that most of
the CS tubes we get are very long in the tooth usually
way past whatever anyone would say they are good for.
That is so true. It always
Scott,
Just being a high vacuum nut may not be enough. Most vacuum
devices have getters engineered into them. These are usually
reactive coatings applied to the cavity wall that react with or
absorb trace gasses to maintain the vacuum. They are made of
evaporated thin-films of
This is a popular FAQ that Cs engineers hear.
The correct answer (at least for HP/Agilent CBTs)
is that there is plenty of Cs in the tube, and
they don't fail because they ran out of Cs. Something
else will always wear out first.
Regarding the general idea of rebuilding CBT's:
a used CBT is
Now that we are discussing how to restore Rb lamps.
Has anyone given any thought to refilling or refluxing the Cs in depleted Cs
tubes?
Oh yes, after I ran into my first dead Cs and found the
price of a replacement tube, you bet I wondered if they
could be refilled. I mean, the same hp also
On 12/01/11 01:06, scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote:
Now that we are discussing how to restore Rb lamps.
Has anyone given any thought to refilling or refluxing the Cs in depleted Cs
tubes?
As it has been pointed out before, the failure of a tube may be from any
number of issues, including the
I have a CS tube that has a 'rattle'. I suspect one of the magnets has
become dislodged.
It would be nice to be able to 'reposition' the magnet if indeed that is the
problem.
I have thought about X-Raying it to see if I could see the problem.
Joe
-Original Message-
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