On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 15:02:15 -0700
Alex Pummer a...@pcscons.com wrote:
there is a complete description:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/ein-digitaler-dcf77-empfanger-mit-hoher-empfindlichkeit/oclc/245812903
unfortunately the closest is in Hamburg, but I am working on it
You can find it at [1]
-nuts
is here:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-June/068021.html
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: Donald donvuko...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB
@febo.com
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
On 8/20/2015 9:31 PM, Alexander Pummer wrote:
it looks like somebody already made a decoder for a wwvb like
transmission, see here:
Performance Analysis and Receiver Architectures of DCF77
Radio-Controlled
/time-nuts/2012-June/068021.html
/tvb
- Original Message -
From: Donald donvuko...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
On 8/20/2015 9:31 PM, Alexander Pummer
Of Jim Lux
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:12 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
On 8/9/15 4:33 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
If you never have tried to keep an IC in production, there are some basic things
that may not be very obvious:
snip
There's always Rochester
Hi Donald,
On the page referenced by Alex later in this thread, there is a link to
Galleon as a US distributor of the HKW modules and WWVB receiver chip:
http://www.ntp-time-server.com/wwvb-receiver/wwvb-receiver.html
where the price may or may not be lower than direct shipping from EU,
or
Consumer WWVB products long ago moved from hobbyist-friendly DIP to gumdrop
IC's (black epoxy blobs covering chip bonded directly to PCB).
You can either buy a $10-$20 consumer WWVB clock and cut out the PCB
section around the gumdrop IC/filter crystal/ferrite stick, or buy a module
e.g.
You might look into GPS devices. They aren't quite as cheap as the WWVB
chips, but there are lots of them on the market.
Yes GPS receivers can be very cheap and self contained and much easier yo
use than those WWVB chips. I have two of the chips. I don't think they
work now that WWVB has
If you need time the GPS chips are the way to go.
Heavens for $11 I think you get the complete system with antenna.
The old wwvb chips do still work as well as they ever did. They detect AM
and thats still a part of the format. They are as reliable as they ever
were. (Sort of not if you live on
The difficult thing about that is that making the wifi connection without
any user interface is difficult now that most wifi connections have
security enabled.
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
wrote:
You might look into GPS devices. They aren't quite
one DCF77 receiver is described here:
http://www.compuphase.com/mp3/h0420_timecode.htm
there are two files to download one for implement the MSF60 the other to
implement the DCF77
* A script file that implements a simple DCF77 decoder
http://www.compuphase.com/mp3/dcf77.zip, that you can
donvuko...@gmail.com said:
A few years ago I had been building some LED clocks for friends, more art
then electronics.
...
People keep saying there are WWVB chips available, but I can not find any
chips.
If you are using LEDs (rather than LCD), I assume you are not running off
batteries.
I looked at the site its the typical cmall board with everything on it.
Saves you the trouble of doing that very fine soldering.
No antenna.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
HI
Discrete as in resistors and transistors or discrete as in “stuff
Hi
Like it or not, the world is going to BGA’s. Even the “fine pitch” leaded stuff
is slowly going away. You might or might not like soldering a fine pitch IC.
Doing a BGA at home - sorry, not for me. I doubt it’s on the “fun list” for
anybody else either. We had better all get used to the idea
On 8/8/2015 11:16 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
HI
Discrete as in resistors and transistors or discrete as in “stuff plus an MCU”?
To be clear(er):
This data sheet is one of a few receivers from a few vendors:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/U/4/2/2/U4221B.shtml
Looking at the data
On 8/9/2015 12:01 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
snip
Back to my original comment, These boards and chips are no longer
available in the US.
From the UK I have purchased some older boards and they do work as
described.
After all the discussion, I guess WWVB is no longer a profitable market.
Buying
On 8/9/2015 2:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ok, that’s a 20 year old IC. When it talks about doing WWVB, it’s talking about
the AM modulation format. It’s not talking about the new phase modulation
approach.
These are the chips that probably will disappear completely once the chips for
the newer
Hi
Ok, that’s a 20 year old IC. When it talks about doing WWVB, it’s talking about
the AM modulation format. It’s not talking about the new phase modulation
approach.
These are the chips that probably will disappear completely once the chips for
the newer format
show up.
Bob
On Aug 9,
This data sheet is one of a few receivers from a few vendors:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/U/4/2/2/U4221B.shtml
Looking at the data sheet link shows the internals of the receiver chip.
This chip outputs the serial stream of the WWVB pwm data.
From there any MCU can decode
Hi
Maybe a little more on “why demodulate the phase mod?”.
1) The signal to noise of the recovered data stream will be significantly
better with the phase mod data. The NIST paper is correct about that.
That alone makes it a neat thing.
2) The interference rejection of the phase mod approach
: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:12 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
On 8/9/15 4:33 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
If you never have tried to keep an IC in production, there are some basic
things
that may
I wish to thank you all for the information presented here about WWVB
receivers.
A few years ago I had been building some LED clocks for friends, more
art then electronics.
Those clocks had a WWVB receiver I got from Digikey.
Today I am re-visiting those clocks as Word Clocks.
Letters
On 8/9/15 4:33 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
If you never have tried to keep an IC in production, there are some basic things
that may not be very obvious:
snip
There's always Rochester Electronics.. leaders in the trailing edge
(no kidding, that's their slogan)..
They buy old fabs, masks, etc,
Hi
On Aug 9, 2015, at 6:56 PM, Donald donvuko...@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/9/2015 2:16 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Ok, that’s a 20 year old IC. When it talks about doing WWVB, it’s talking
about
the AM modulation format. It’s not talking about the new phase modulation
approach.
These are
Hi
If you never have tried to keep an IC in production, there are some basic things
that may not be very obvious:
1) Chip geometries shrink fast. A 4 year old production geometry is essentialy
obsolete.
2) Manufacturing lines either are retired or re-tooled to the new rules on a
regular basis
On 8/9/15 7:57 PM, John Allen wrote:
Hi Jim -
You wrote:
At some point, multiproject wafers (like MOSIS) might become a hobby
product. So far, it's in the several kilobuck minimum purchase, and,
as well, the tools aren't easy to come by. Or, more properly, good
design tools are expensive,
HI
Discrete as in resistors and transistors or discrete as in “stuff plus an MCU”?
Bob
On Aug 7, 2015, at 11:33 PM, Donald donvuko...@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/7/2015 4:30 PM, Clint Turner wrote:
( very detailed explanation snipped )
Thank You for your explanation, I had thought of this as
On 8/7/2015 8:13 AM, Brian Inglis wrote:
Given a $10 60kHz receiver,
This is the problem.
I can not find $10 receivers any more.
I can find $15-$20 receivers (from the UK), add shipping and it minimum
$20+.
Even the older chips still work with the new format, its just finding
them,
Hi
On Aug 7, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:
kb...@n1k.org said:
A ~$30 FPGA card plus an MCU would be massive overkill. It would also be
fairly easy to do. A similarly priced ARM board from any of a dozen outfits
*might* do the trick.
...
Could you get
On 8/7/15 1:40 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
kb...@n1k.org said:
Well, at least *some* of the chips out there do not make it to 96 KHz when
sampling at 192 KHz. It’s been a few years since I dug into them. Back then
a chip that had an internal filter that went to 96K was very much the
exception
I have a very similar looking Junghams clock bought in the UK about 20
years ago (though it doesn't have that time zone graphic). It works off the
UK MSF standard : still in daily use, though it doesn't sync quite so well
since the transmitter moved to Cumbria (I'm quite close to the old site,
On 8/7/2015 4:30 PM, Clint Turner wrote:
( very detailed explanation snipped )
Thank You for your explanation, I had thought of this as well, but I do
not know enough to implement this.
Looking at the WWVB chips that were available, what might it take to
make a discrete version of those
On 07/08/15 07:18, Charles Steinmetz wrote:
Bob wrote:
Well, at least *some* of the chips out there do not make it to 96 KHz
when sampling at 192 KHz. Its
been a few years since I dug into them. Back then a chip that had an
internal filter that went to 96K
was very much the exception rather
On 2015-08-07 14:43, Donald wrote:
On 8/7/2015 8:13 AM, Brian Inglis wrote:
Given a $10 60kHz receiver,
This is the problem.
I can not find $10 receivers any more.
I can find $15-$20 receivers (from the UK), add shipping and it minimum $20+.
Even the older chips still work with the new format,
(GMT+01:00)
/divdivTill: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com /divdivRubrik: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
/divdiv
/divOn 8/7/2015 8:13 AM, Brian Inglis wrote:
Given a $10 60kHz receiver,
This is the problem.
I can not find $10 receivers any more.
I can
Hi Bob,
The use of the PIC for WWVB carrier/data detection was only ever
intended for use with a visual clock, thus uncertainty (e.g. lag, delay
or whatever you want to call it) was par for the course in the
implementation that I described.
On 8/7/2015 3:51 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com
kb...@n1k.org said:
A ~$30 FPGA card plus an MCU would be massive overkill. It would also be
fairly easy to do. A similarly priced ARM board from any of a dozen outfits
*might* do the trick.
...
Could you get away without this or that? Who knows. There isnât enough cost
in any of those
If anyone is really interested in an SDR WWVB receiver project, TAPR has
a fairly large quantity of boards left over from a previous project that
use a very high performance 192ksample sound card chip (AK5394) in a
carefully laid-out design with no filtering (I believe the inputs are
also DC
Bob wrote:
Well, at least *some* of the chips out there do
not make it to 96 KHz when sampling at 192 KHz. Its
been a few years since I dug into them. Back
then a chip that had an internal filter that went to 96K
was very much the exception rather than the
rule. If the only point of 192K is
kb...@n1k.org said:
Well, at least *some* of the chips out there do not make it to 96 KHz when
sampling at 192 KHz. Itâs been a few years since I dug into them. Back then
a chip that had an internal filter that went to 96K was very much the
exception rather than the rule. If the only point
a software demodulator for the DCF77 was published last year, the DCF77
has similar modulation structure as the new wwvb it was developed at a
Swiss company
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 8/6/2015 3:11 PM, Donald wrote:
I have found this old posting from 2014:
On 2015-08-04 21:36, Hal Murray wrote:
kb...@n1k.org said:
So far there have not been any home brew design radios show up that will
demodulate and lock to the new data format. There is plenty of info on the
transmit format. The demodulation approach is not crazy hard. That said,
there’s
On 8/5/15 8:27 PM, Donald wrote:
On 8/5/2015 7:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Analog Devices has some very nice ADC’s that are directly targeted at
doing this general sort of thing. They do not have any “odd” filtering
approach
that creates issues. Some of the early 192 KHz audio parts did not do
On 8/5/15 8:03 PM, Donald wrote:
On 8/5/2015 6:44 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
I'm not sure it would buy you much.. you'd have something running at
240kHz switching the inputs to the detector?
It's MUCH easier to just digitize the 60kHz with a high resolution
converter. And have a nice BPF in front of
On 8/5/2015 7:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Analog Devices has some very nice ADC’s that are directly targeted at
doing this general sort of thing. They do not have any “odd” filtering approach
that creates issues. Some of the early 192 KHz audio parts did not do very well
past 1/4 the clock rate.
kb...@n1k.org said:
You *might* even be able to dispense with the tear down of the KS box and
feed it 1 pps out of your ADC / FPGA / MCU / Bailing wire rig. Instant WWVB
disciplined OCXO.
Has anybody investigated the signals on the cable between the two boxes?
The status screen on the
On 8/5/2015 6:44 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
I'm not sure it would buy you much.. you'd have something running at
240kHz switching the inputs to the detector?
It's MUCH easier to just digitize the 60kHz with a high resolution
converter. And have a nice BPF in front of the digitizer.
The
Hi
Well, at least *some* of the chips out there do not make it to 96 KHz when
sampling at 192 KHz. It’s
been a few years since I dug into them. Back then a chip that had an internal
filter that went to 96K
was very much the exception rather than the rule. If the only point of 192K is
getting
Hi
The gotcha with under sampling is the need for tight bandpass filters in front
of the sampler. Narrow bandwidth always
equates to long delay. If the filters are analog (rather than digital) that
delay will have drift and temperature sensitivity.
Both of those things are to be avoided (if
Hi
On Aug 6, 2015, at 1:43 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:
On 8/5/15 8:27 PM, Donald wrote:
On 8/5/2015 7:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Analog Devices has some very nice ADC’s that are directly targeted at
doing this general sort of thing. They do not have any “odd” filtering
On 8/5/2015 12:43 AM, Donald wrote:
/Does anyone have a schematic for building a simple WWVB receiver ?/
You might give a look at this :
http://armradio.weaksignals.com
The board itself costs less than 25 USD. The other components just a few $$.
Of course you need to know how to solder...
Clint,
Is this the design you are looking for?
http://webpages.charter.net/ekyle/WWVB.html
-Neil
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Clint Turner tur...@ussc.com wrote:
Years ago I ran across a project in which the WWVB signal, after being
siphoned from a cheap TRF clock module with a Hi-Z
can get them on eBay for around $200.00
Burt, K6OQK
From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wtd: WWVB info
Does anyone have a schematic for building a simple WWVB receiver
Years ago I ran across a project in which the WWVB signal, after being
siphoned from a cheap TRF clock module with a Hi-Z follower, IIRC, was
shoved directly into the A/D input (10 bits) of a rather low-end PIC
running at a fairly low sample rate - something in the 4-8 kHz range.
IIRC, from
I have found this old posting from 2014:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-August/086043.html
Ivan Cousins states:
A WWVB receiver can now be done on an Arduino microprocessor with a
little help from an antenna.
Googleing has not found such an article or project.
Has this ever
As long as there is no analog audio bandwidth Nyquist filter, or it is
digital and scales with the sampling frequency, then I agree.
--- Graham
==
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:24 AM, David G. McGaw david.g.mc...@dartmouth.edu
wrote:
That is not true. If the converter is set to 192kHz sampling,
That is not true. If the converter is set to 192kHz sampling, the
bandwidth will be nearly 96kHz, typically at least 80kHz, not limited to
20kHz. That is the POINT of 192kHz sampling.
David N1HAC
On 8/5/15 10:03 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:
Scott:
You won't be able to use an off-the-shelf
Hi
On Aug 5, 2015, at 11:27 PM, Donald donvuko...@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/5/2015 7:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Analog Devices has some very nice ADC’s that are directly targeted at
doing this general sort of thing. They do not have any “odd” filtering
approach
that creates issues. Some
Hi
The front end would be “dealers choice”. He who does the
project gets to decide what gets used.
If you look over some other designs, you can indeed get
a device going with a 12 bit converter. The qualifier is that
the signal to noise needs to be pretty good. With fades
and switcher
There are several high end audio Analog to Digital Data converters that
will clock at 192 kHz, ~23 bits ENOB, which puts a 60 kHz signal sweetly in
the first Nyquist zone. Typical NF of the front end of the data converter
is 20 to 25 dB, so noise floor well below the atmospheric noise level at 60
Does anyone have a schematic for building a simple WWVB receiver ?
Any information would be grateful.
- Don
See http://www.joejaworski.com/wwvb/ for a recent WWVB project.
See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/WWVBexps.pdf for a vintage project.
/tvb
There is someone on ebay selling an analog 'movement'
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181283274562
DISCLAIMER: Not associated with the seller
On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The front end would be “dealers choice”. He who does the
project gets to decide what
On 8/4/2015 9:36 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
kb...@n1k.org said:
So far there have not been any home brew design radios show up that will
demodulate and lock to the new data format. There is plenty of info on the
transmit format. The demodulation approach is not crazy hard. That said,
there’s still
Hi
10 MHz does not divide by an integer to 60 KHz. 15 MHz, 6 and 9 MHz are all more
reasonable candidates. The attractiveness of 15 MHz and the value of a tunable
OCXO is what makes the current $25 price of the KS boxes pretty attractive. You
*might* even be able to dispense with the tear down
Hi
It will work as a direct conversion radio. As with any of these, the practical
result
will be a tone at a lower frequency. You will convert 60 KHz to 600 Hz by using
a 60.6 KHz
local oscillator. The big question is: Does this really help out or not?
Bob
On Aug 5, 2015, at 3:41 PM, Donald
At 12:40 PM 8/5/2015, Graham / KE9H wrote:
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
There are several high end audio Analog to Digital Data converters that
will clock at 192 kHz, ~23 bits ENOB, which puts a 60 kHz signal sweetly in
the first Nyquist zone. Typical NF of the front end of the data
On 8/5/15 12:41 PM, Donald wrote:
On 8/4/2015 9:36 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
kb...@n1k.org said:
So far there have not been any home brew design radios show up that will
demodulate and lock to the new data format. There is plenty of info
on the
transmit format. The demodulation approach is not
Hi
Analog Devices has some very nice ADC’s that are directly targeted at
doing this general sort of thing. They do not have any “odd” filtering approach
that creates issues. Some of the early 192 KHz audio parts did not do very well
past 1/4 the clock rate.
Bob
On Aug 5, 2015, at 6:47 PM,
Scott:
You won't be able to use an off-the-shelf audio card, because they will have
filters that cut off just above human hearing limits, somewhere in the
mid 20 kHz range. I was referring to the data converter chips they use
on those high end cards. The circuit for ~80 kHz (Nyquist) low pass
If one were trying to use it not simply for the time code but also as a
frequency reference, it seems to me that the ideal thing would be a ADC
that can easily use an external clock (derived from a local voltage-tuned
OCXO reference under control of the SDR). Otherwise one is doing (rather
At 05:43 PM 8/4/2015, Donald wrote:
I have been looking into WWVB receivers.
I see that the sources I had purchased from a few years ago are no
longer available(in the US).
I've bought modules and antennas recently from Germany and the UK:
kb...@n1k.org said:
So far there have not been any home brew design radios show up that will
demodulate and lock to the new data format. There is plenty of info on the
transmit format. The demodulation approach is not crazy hard. That said,
thereâs still a lot of work to get a receiver
Don nothing magical. Simply no market.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Donald donvuko...@gmail.com wrote:
I have been looking into WWVB receivers.
I see that the sources I had purchased from a few years ago are no longer
available(in the US).
I see that the format of
Hi
Quick summary:
WWVB changed the format of their transmissions. They now have a phase
modulation
component in the signal. That *eventually* will let people make a better chip
to demodulate
the time info string (and to get more info out of it). So far the new chips
have not been spotted
for
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