Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTPserver?

[David J Taylor]

Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
stratum 1 server!)

I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
practical if your software only works on Windoze.

Any comments?

Dave, G8WRB.
==

Dave,

I very much doubt that with a typical consumer-level Internet source you are 
going to do much better than a millisecond over the day, as the load can 
vary so much (and hence the packet delay time), and some ISPs don't 
prioritise NTP packets in any case (they may prioritise other traffic 
instead).


For the millisecond level of accuracy using Windows I would strongly 
recommend a local clock with a GPS/PPS source.  It is entirely practical on 
Windows:


 http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/FreeBSD-GPS-PPS.htm
 http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/NTP-on-Windows-serial-port.html
 http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Sure-GPS.htm

I've used such sources on Windows 2000, XP and Windows-7 and you can see the 
accuracy obtained here:


 http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php

The Windows 2000 box does seem very sensitive to higher CPU use causing an 
internal temperature drift and hence millisecond errors.


I've also made a simple NTP server using the low-cost Raspberry Pi board and 
GPS/PPS which gets "microsecond" level offsets, and you could hard-lock a 
Windows PC over the LAN to such a server using short polling intervals such 
as you suggest.  PCs Hydra and Narvik in the above graphs are LAN-connected 
with a 32 second polling interval to local stratum-1 servers.  Other 
non-stratum-1 PCs are Wi-Fi connected.


Note that Windows-8 has a new high-precision GetSystemTime call which may be 
helpful to those writing such programs.


If, as others have suggested, only fractions of seconds are needed, then a 
well-configured NTP (not the so-called Atomic Time programs), may well 
suffice.  I have install details for NTP on my Web site:


 http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html

73
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 



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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump (at last!)

[paul swed]

Elio
Just downloaded the information. The schematic really is shaping up very
nicely.
On the dumps any suggestion for looking at them?
Thanks for your hard work.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Elio C  wrote:

> I'm sorry for the long delay (due to personal reasons) but at last I was
> able to dump the contents of the PSD chips which contains the firmware of
> the FEI FE-5680A rubidium frequency standard!
> I have also updated the schematics with some more details/information.
> You will find the new schematics at:
> <
>
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.3.pdf
> >
>
> and the firmware dump (FLASH/EEPROM/CPLD/UserSpace) in .HEX and .BIN format
> at:
> <
>
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE5680A_FirmwareDump_v001.rar
> >
>
> _   Elio Corbolante.
>
> P.S. I tried to disassemble the FLASH binary image and it seems the dump is
> OK: I was able to identify where the CPU accesses the DDS and the ADC.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Christopher Brown]

There are 2 different things here.


"Setting" the time based on a single query.

"Disciplining" the local clock


Many of the built in NTP clients just "Set" the time every X

Setting one of these to "SET" the local clock every X seconds is a less
than good thing.


If you timing needs are loose, let the client _set_ the time once an
hour or day.


If you need tight timing, install a full NTP setup.


Normally this means...


Host starts up

Host performs a _set_ to get the time within a few tens of ms

Host then fires up a proper ntp server, with a list of remote service.
This talks to all of the provided servers, figures the local osc offset,
compensates and keeps everything in-line.

This is a much better (and more stable) setup than hard setting the
clock every 4 seconds

On 11/7/12 12:41 PM, David Kirkby wrote:
> Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
> time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
> sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
> server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
> (DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
> really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
> assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
> stratum 1 server!)
> 
> I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
> some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
> serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
> practical if your software only works on Windoze.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Dave, G8WRB.
> 
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> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Jim Lux]

On 11/7/12 5:42 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

That sounds odd, as most radios take tens of millisecond, if not hundreds to 
switch from transmit to receive and back in any mode other than break-in CW.

Further JT65 is used with propagation modes that typically do not have a stable 
or predictable propagation time like moonbounce or meteor scatter, so I don't 
understand why mS timing would be necessary?

I must be missing something.




maybe some form of Coherent or very low speed CW or equivalent, where 
you use an external reference to get symbol timing.  Say you were 
sending at 1 bit per second, using a 1 PPS as your symbol clock.  You 
send a sync pattern at the beginning, then free run for the message.


Don't forget that the implementation may be very unsophisticated or 
adopted/modified from some hardware design where the timing was counted 
down from a good clock, and now it's just a slavish copy in software.





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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[David]

The symbol time for JT65 is  2.69 baud or 0.372 seconds so one symbol
is about 70,000 miles of propagation.  The information I found online
says synchronization needs to be within 1 or 2 seconds for decoding
and closer is better.

http://www.qsl.net/zs2pe/VHF/Downloads/JT65%20Technical%20Specs.txt

If the OS clock was screwed up because of the issues I mentioned
earlier, synchronizing every few seconds might be needed to make it
work.  I sure would try fiddling with CPU power management though to
fix it.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:42:38 -0600, shali...@gmail.com wrote:

>That sounds odd, as most radios take tens of millisecond, if not hundreds to 
>switch from transmit to receive and back in any mode other than break-in CW.
>
>Further JT65 is used with propagation modes that typically do not have a 
>stable or predictable propagation time like moonbounce or meteor scatter, so I 
>don't understand why mS timing would be necessary?
>
>I must be missing something.
>
>Didier KO4BB
>
>
>Didier
>
>Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Kirkby 
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
>Sent: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 5:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP 
>server?
>
>On 7 November 2012 23:28,   wrote:
>> We had a presentation at our radio club several months ago on digital HF
>> modes, and part of the presentation was on JT65 and apparently it needs
>> a precise synchronized time fix on both ends for an exchange to occur.
>> I do not recollect all of the details that were presented, but they did
>> say that the default windows time keeper is not accurate enough, and
>> advocated installing a third party ntp client that updates (way too)
>> frequently.
>>
>> -Brian
>
>I think it might be JT65 he is using. I know he said that if your time
>was accurate to 1 ms, and someone elses 2 ms, you have a higher chance
>of making the QSO. Hence there is a need for accurate timing. (I'm not
>sure he said those exact figures of 1 and 2 ms, but the general point
>was that it needed to be accuate, and increased accuracy gave a higher
>chance of making the QSO).
>
>But the whole idea of getting time from an internet time server every
>few seconds seemed odd to me. He is not using any local time server.
>
>I'll try to find out what mode he is using, and what software to
>correct his time.
>
>Dave
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[shalimr9]

That sounds odd, as most radios take tens of millisecond, if not hundreds to 
switch from transmit to receive and back in any mode other than break-in CW.

Further JT65 is used with propagation modes that typically do not have a stable 
or predictable propagation time like moonbounce or meteor scatter, so I don't 
understand why mS timing would be necessary?

I must be missing something.

Didier KO4BB


Didier

Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.



-Original Message-
From: David Kirkby 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP 
server?

On 7 November 2012 23:28,   wrote:
> We had a presentation at our radio club several months ago on digital HF
> modes, and part of the presentation was on JT65 and apparently it needs
> a precise synchronized time fix on both ends for an exchange to occur.
> I do not recollect all of the details that were presented, but they did
> say that the default windows time keeper is not accurate enough, and
> advocated installing a third party ntp client that updates (way too)
> frequently.
>
> -Brian

I think it might be JT65 he is using. I know he said that if your time
was accurate to 1 ms, and someone elses 2 ms, you have a higher chance
of making the QSO. Hence there is a need for accurate timing. (I'm not
sure he said those exact figures of 1 and 2 ms, but the general point
was that it needed to be accuate, and increased accuracy gave a higher
chance of making the QSO).

But the whole idea of getting time from an internet time server every
few seconds seemed odd to me. He is not using any local time server.

I'll try to find out what mode he is using, and what software to
correct his time.

Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

JT65 needs at most +/- 0.5 seconds. Just about any proper NTP running 
continuously on a Windows machine will do far better than that. There's no need 
for massive update rates  to make it all happen. 

Bob



On Nov 7, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Jeff Stevens  wrote:

> David,
> 
> What mode is your friend using that he finds the need to do an ntp
> update every 4 seconds?  I'm familiar with JT65 , but that does fine
> with a +/- 1 second error.
> 
> -Jeff
> W7WWA
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTPserver?

[paul swed]

OK thanks for the pointer to joe taylor will look him up.
This would be familiar to the very weak signal work I was doing years ago
about 15 and I used discreet ICs to process very weak signals that were
slow. But we would use a common view reference such as wwvb or a am radio
station. These days you would do it all in a sound card.
Regards
Paul.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

> Hi Paul think synchronous data transmission where you cant detect enough
> signal to synchronise reliably via the bit edges received. Initially
> developed for LF (136kHz) where the ERP of amateur antennas is very low.
> Google Joe Taylor but not for his Nobel prize, who's original interest was
> Moonbounce communication. He has now generated modes for LF too.
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
> - Original Message - From: "paul swed" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from
> NTPserver?
>
>
>
>  Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
>> a timing relationship.
>> At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
>> is pretty odd.
>> Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
>> Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
>> Regards
>> Paul
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:
>>
>>  Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
>>> clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
>>> adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
>>> that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
>>> frequent updates.
>>>
>>> If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
>>> assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.
>>>
>>> There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
>>> That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
>>> anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
>>> and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
>>> >time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
>>> >sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
>>> >server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
>>> >(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
>>> >really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
>>> >assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
>>> >stratum 1 server!)
>>> >
>>> >I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
>>> >some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
>>> >serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
>>> >practical if your software only works on Windoze.
>>> >
>>> >Any comments?
>>> >
>>> >Dave, G8WRB.
>>> >
>>> >_**__
>>> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> >To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> >and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> __**_
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>>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Jeff Stevens]

David,

What mode is your friend using that he finds the need to do an ntp
update every 4 seconds?  I'm familiar with JT65 , but that does fine
with a +/- 1 second error.

-Jeff
W7WWA

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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I think you would do a lot better with a cheap GPS rather than fiddling with 
NTP for this level of timing. No real need for a GPSDO, just the raw pps and 
time of day straight out of the GPS. Probably no need for a timing grade GPS, 
just one with a PPS.

Bob

On Nov 7, 2012, at 6:47 PM, David Kirkby  wrote:

> On 7 November 2012 23:28,   wrote:
>> We had a presentation at our radio club several months ago on digital HF
>> modes, and part of the presentation was on JT65 and apparently it needs
>> a precise synchronized time fix on both ends for an exchange to occur.
>> I do not recollect all of the details that were presented, but they did
>> say that the default windows time keeper is not accurate enough, and
>> advocated installing a third party ntp client that updates (way too)
>> frequently.
>> 
>> -Brian
> 
> I think it might be JT65 he is using. I know he said that if your time
> was accurate to 1 ms, and someone elses 2 ms, you have a higher chance
> of making the QSO. Hence there is a need for accurate timing. (I'm not
> sure he said those exact figures of 1 and 2 ms, but the general point
> was that it needed to be accuate, and increased accuracy gave a higher
> chance of making the QSO).
> 
> But the whole idea of getting time from an internet time server every
> few seconds seemed odd to me. He is not using any local time server.
> 
> I'll try to find out what mode he is using, and what software to
> correct his time.
> 
> Dave
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[lists]

Based on a sample of one (my NTP), I can hold the clock frequency to 0.1PPM. 
Seems to me you could compute the adjustment requirements from such a number.

 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Albertson 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:02:41 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP
server?

Sure enough every 4 seconds would work, as would every 2 seconds.  But I
bet every 1000 seconds would work as well.

We need some more details but it seem he has something badly misconfigured
if 4 seconds updates are required.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:41 PM, David Kirkby wrote:

> Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
> time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
> sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
> server every 4 seconds or so.
>



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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[time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump (at last!)

[Elio C]

I'm sorry for the long delay (due to personal reasons) but at last I was
able to dump the contents of the PSD chips which contains the firmware of
the FEI FE-5680A rubidium frequency standard!
I have also updated the schematics with some more details/information.
You will find the new schematics at:
<
http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.3.pdf>

and the firmware dump (FLASH/EEPROM/CPLD/UserSpace) in .HEX and .BIN format
at:
<
http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE5680A_FirmwareDump_v001.rar
>

_   Elio Corbolante.

P.S. I tried to disassemble the FLASH binary image and it seems the dump is
OK: I was able to identify where the CPU accesses the DDS and the ADC.
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTPserver?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Paul think synchronous data transmission where you cant detect enough 
signal to synchronise reliably via the bit edges received. Initially 
developed for LF (136kHz) where the ERP of amateur antennas is very low. 
Google Joe Taylor but not for his Nobel prize, who's original interest was 
Moonbounce communication. He has now generated modes for LF too.

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "paul swed" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from 
NTPserver?




Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
a timing relationship.
At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
is pretty odd.
Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:


Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
frequent updates.

If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.

There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
 wrote:

>Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
>time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
>sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
>server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
>(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
>really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
>assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
>stratum 1 server!)
>
>I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
>some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
>serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
>practical if your software only works on Windoze.
>
>Any comments?
>
>Dave, G8WRB.
>
>___
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[David Kirkby]

On 7 November 2012 23:28,   wrote:
> We had a presentation at our radio club several months ago on digital HF
> modes, and part of the presentation was on JT65 and apparently it needs
> a precise synchronized time fix on both ends for an exchange to occur.
> I do not recollect all of the details that were presented, but they did
> say that the default windows time keeper is not accurate enough, and
> advocated installing a third party ntp client that updates (way too)
> frequently.
>
> -Brian

I think it might be JT65 he is using. I know he said that if your time
was accurate to 1 ms, and someone elses 2 ms, you have a higher chance
of making the QSO. Hence there is a need for accurate timing. (I'm not
sure he said those exact figures of 1 and 2 ms, but the general point
was that it needed to be accuate, and increased accuracy gave a higher
chance of making the QSO).

But the whole idea of getting time from an internet time server every
few seconds seemed odd to me. He is not using any local time server.

I'll try to find out what mode he is using, and what software to
correct his time.

Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A Problem

[Bob Camp]

Hi

They did indeed exist. I haven't seen one for 10 years or so.

Bob

On Nov 7, 2012, at 7:30 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> There were a *lot* of firmware updates to the Oncores. I don't know if the 
> re-flash images are still out there or not. If they are, it wouldn't hurt to 
> upgrade the card. I don't think it will fix your problem, but it won't hurt 
> either.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Nov 7, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Ed Palmer  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Mike,
>> 
>> My unit has the standard 6 channel VP.  In fact, here's the ID message:
>> 
>> COPYRIGHT 1991-1995 MOTOROLA INC.
>> SFTW P/N # 98-P39972M
>> SOFTWARE VER # 8
>> SOFTWARE REV # 4
>> SOFTWARE DATE  13 JUL 1995
>> MODEL #B1121P1114
>> HDWR P/N # _
>> SERIAL #   SSG0239632
>> MANUFACTUR DATE 7H18
>> OPTIONS LISTIB
>> 
>> I understand that the 'B1' start to the model number means that it's quite 
>> old.
>> 
>> I don't remember if I ever did a full reset so I just did one. We'll see 
>> what happens.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ed
>> 
>> On 11/6/2012 10:20 PM, Mike S wrote:
>>> On 11/6/2012 2:59 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:
 But if this is a firmware issue, shouldn't there be lots of Z3801As with
 this problem?  I suspect that there's a fault with my unit, but I can't
 imagine what.
>>> 
>>> Does your unit by chance have an 8 channel Oncore VP instead of the stock 6 
>>> channel one?
>>> 
>>> Also, have you tried a full reset (:system:preset)?
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[bjones0]

We had a presentation at our radio club several months ago on digital HF
modes, and part of the presentation was on JT65 and apparently it needs
a precise synchronized time fix on both ends for an exchange to occur.
I do not recollect all of the details that were presented, but they did
say that the default windows time keeper is not accurate enough, and
advocated installing a third party ntp client that updates (way too)
frequently.

-Brian




On Wed, 2012-11-07 at 16:52 -0600, David wrote:
> Some finicky software becomes upset if time is stepped backwards too
> far.
> 
> I have seen PC hardware clocks that drifted 30 seconds a day but that
> only matters during a restart.  The more common problem involves OS
> time drift, often amounting to seconds per minute, caused by bad
> System Management Mode code leading to lost interrupts or other
> problems.  A BIOS update or fiddling with the CPU power management
> usually fixes that.
> 
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:11:26 -0500, paul swed 
> wrote:
> 
> >Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
> >a timing relationship.
> >At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
> >is pretty odd.
> >Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
> >Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
> >Regards
> >Paul
> >
> >On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:
> >
> >> Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
> >> clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
> >> adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
> >> that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
> >> frequent updates.
> >>
> >> If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
> >> assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.
> >>
> >> There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
> >> That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
> >> anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
> >> and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.
> >>
> >> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> >Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
> >> >time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
> >> >sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
> >> >server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
> >> >(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
> >> >really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
> >> >assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
> >> >stratum 1 server!)
> >> >
> >> >I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
> >> >some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
> >> >serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
> >> >practical if your software only works on Windoze.
> >> >
> >> >Any comments?
> >> >
> >> >Dave, G8WRB.
> >> >
> >> >___
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[Chris Albertson]

Sure enough every 4 seconds would work, as would every 2 seconds.  But I
bet every 1000 seconds would work as well.

We need some more details but it seem he has something badly misconfigured
if 4 seconds updates are required.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:41 PM, David Kirkby wrote:

> Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
> time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
> sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
> server every 4 seconds or so.
>



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[David]

Some finicky software becomes upset if time is stepped backwards too
far.

I have seen PC hardware clocks that drifted 30 seconds a day but that
only matters during a restart.  The more common problem involves OS
time drift, often amounting to seconds per minute, caused by bad
System Management Mode code leading to lost interrupts or other
problems.  A BIOS update or fiddling with the CPU power management
usually fixes that.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:11:26 -0500, paul swed 
wrote:

>Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
>a timing relationship.
>At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
>is pretty odd.
>Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
>Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
>Regards
>Paul
>
>On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:
>
>> Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
>> clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
>> adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
>> that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
>> frequent updates.
>>
>> If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
>> assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.
>>
>> There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
>> That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
>> anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
>> and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
>> >time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
>> >sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
>> >server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
>> >(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
>> >really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
>> >assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
>> >stratum 1 server!)
>> >
>> >I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
>> >some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
>> >serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
>> >practical if your software only works on Windoze.
>> >
>> >Any comments?
>> >
>> >Dave, G8WRB.
>> >
>> >___
>> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >and follow the instructions there.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[paul swed]

Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
a timing relationship.
At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
is pretty odd.
Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:

> Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
> clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
> adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
> that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
> frequent updates.
>
> If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
> assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.
>
> There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
> That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
> anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
> and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.
>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
>  wrote:
>
> >Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
> >time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
> >sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
> >server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
> >(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
> >really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
> >assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
> >stratum 1 server!)
> >
> >I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
> >some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
> >serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
> >practical if your software only works on Windoze.
> >
> >Any comments?
> >
> >Dave, G8WRB.
> >
> >___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[David]

Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
frequent updates.

If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.

There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
 wrote:

>Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
>time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
>sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
>server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
>(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
>really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
>assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
>stratum 1 server!)
>
>I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
>some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
>serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
>practical if your software only works on Windoze.
>
>Any comments?
>
>Dave, G8WRB.
>
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[time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTP server?

[David Kirkby]

Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
stratum 1 server!)

I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
practical if your software only works on Windoze.

Any comments?

Dave, G8WRB.

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A Problem

[Rex]

Back in the early 2000's Randy Warner was working at Synergy and posting 
here. He provided a lot of good and accurate details about the Oncores 
to the list. You might want to search the archive for his name and scan 
through the posts. He was a fabulous, accurate source while he was 
posting here, but left Synergy around 2006-2007.


One document he provided is this:
http://www.febo.com/pages/hardware/VPCommands.pdf

In there he mentions the VP firmware versions and that Synergy could 
re-flash the firmware for you, but I doubt that option still exists. I 
think it may have been mentioned that there was no way to update the 
firmware outside of the factory. That is what I remember.


-Rex

On 11/7/2012 5:05 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

Never found an Oncore firmware file... can you point me to anyone of them?
I'm curious to see one.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:


Hi

There were a *lot* of firmware updates to the Oncores. I don't know if the
re-flash images are still out there or not. If they are, it wouldn't hurt
to upgrade the card. I don't think it will fix your problem, but it won't
hurt either.

Bob

On Nov 7, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Ed Palmer  wrote:


Hi Mike,

My unit has the standard 6 channel VP.  In fact, here's the ID message:

COPYRIGHT 1991-1995 MOTOROLA INC.
SFTW P/N # 98-P39972M
SOFTWARE VER # 8
SOFTWARE REV # 4
SOFTWARE DATE  13 JUL 1995
MODEL #B1121P1114
HDWR P/N # _
SERIAL #   SSG0239632
MANUFACTUR DATE 7H18
OPTIONS LISTIB

I understand that the 'B1' start to the model number means that it's

quite old.

I don't remember if I ever did a full reset so I just did one. We'll see

what happens.

Thanks,
Ed

On 11/6/2012 10:20 PM, Mike S wrote:

On 11/6/2012 2:59 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:

But if this is a firmware issue, shouldn't there be lots of Z3801As

with

this problem?  I suspect that there's a fault with my unit, but I can't
imagine what.

Does your unit by chance have an 8 channel Oncore VP instead of the

stock 6 channel one?

Also, have you tried a full reset (:system:preset)?

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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A Problem

[Azelio Boriani]

Never found an Oncore firmware file... can you point me to anyone of them?
I'm curious to see one.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> There were a *lot* of firmware updates to the Oncores. I don't know if the
> re-flash images are still out there or not. If they are, it wouldn't hurt
> to upgrade the card. I don't think it will fix your problem, but it won't
> hurt either.
>
> Bob
>
> On Nov 7, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Ed Palmer  wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > My unit has the standard 6 channel VP.  In fact, here's the ID message:
> >
> > COPYRIGHT 1991-1995 MOTOROLA INC.
> > SFTW P/N # 98-P39972M
> > SOFTWARE VER # 8
> > SOFTWARE REV # 4
> > SOFTWARE DATE  13 JUL 1995
> > MODEL #B1121P1114
> > HDWR P/N # _
> > SERIAL #   SSG0239632
> > MANUFACTUR DATE 7H18
> > OPTIONS LISTIB
> >
> > I understand that the 'B1' start to the model number means that it's
> quite old.
> >
> > I don't remember if I ever did a full reset so I just did one. We'll see
> what happens.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ed
> >
> > On 11/6/2012 10:20 PM, Mike S wrote:
> >> On 11/6/2012 2:59 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:
> >>> But if this is a firmware issue, shouldn't there be lots of Z3801As
> with
> >>> this problem?  I suspect that there's a fault with my unit, but I can't
> >>> imagine what.
> >>
> >> Does your unit by chance have an 8 channel Oncore VP instead of the
> stock 6 channel one?
> >>
> >> Also, have you tried a full reset (:system:preset)?
> >>
> >> ___
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A Problem

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There were a *lot* of firmware updates to the Oncores. I don't know if the 
re-flash images are still out there or not. If they are, it wouldn't hurt to 
upgrade the card. I don't think it will fix your problem, but it won't hurt 
either.

Bob

On Nov 7, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Ed Palmer  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> 
> My unit has the standard 6 channel VP.  In fact, here's the ID message:
> 
> COPYRIGHT 1991-1995 MOTOROLA INC.
> SFTW P/N # 98-P39972M
> SOFTWARE VER # 8
> SOFTWARE REV # 4
> SOFTWARE DATE  13 JUL 1995
> MODEL #B1121P1114
> HDWR P/N # _
> SERIAL #   SSG0239632
> MANUFACTUR DATE 7H18
> OPTIONS LISTIB
> 
> I understand that the 'B1' start to the model number means that it's quite 
> old.
> 
> I don't remember if I ever did a full reset so I just did one. We'll see what 
> happens.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed
> 
> On 11/6/2012 10:20 PM, Mike S wrote:
>> On 11/6/2012 2:59 PM, Ed Palmer wrote:
>>> But if this is a firmware issue, shouldn't there be lots of Z3801As with
>>> this problem?  I suspect that there's a fault with my unit, but I can't
>>> imagine what.
>> 
>> Does your unit by chance have an 8 channel Oncore VP instead of the stock 6 
>> channel one?
>> 
>> Also, have you tried a full reset (:system:preset)?
>> 
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