Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Scott Harris]

I've got an SRS 700 and I live in CO. Any chance I can pick up the "new" LORAN 
signals?

Thanks,
-Scott
On Mar 19, 2013, at 9:33 AM, paul swed  wrote:

> 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Stan, W1LE]

Just got in.  LORAN C had been locked since Paul mentioned the signal.

So far it is comparing to my T'Bolt GPS/DO to 8E-13.

Stan, W1LE   Cape Cod
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Re: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Does your rubidium put out a pps? Do you have any counter capable of time 
interval (time channel 1 to channel 2) measurement?

Something like a 5334 is a pretty common item, and they are cheap if you need 
to get one. Feed the pps into the "start" channel. Feed the generator into the 
"stop" channel. The time interval measured will distribute over the period of 
the generator output. At first glance the data will look like junk. You need to 
post process it to "unwrap" the delta phase readings. Your data will be once a 
second and only good to a couple ns. 

Taking your original frequency, the period would be 135.83… ns.  A perfect 
setup would only report data in the 0 to 135.83 ns range. Real counters are 
never quite perfect, so you will probably not get 0 and you probably will get 
136 or 137 ns. You might also get negative numbers. A lot depends on your 
counter. The first thing is to fold the data into the proper range. Next is to 
make a reasonable guess when you go from say 121 ns to 13 ns. That's the phase 
unwrapping process. Once you've done that, you have a phase record (delta phase 
once a second) that you can feed into Stable-32. There likely will be a bit 
more fiddling on real data, but that's the basics.

Bob

On Mar 19, 2013, at 6:08 PM, John Doering  wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> I am a grad student working part time for a frequency generator
> distributor. For the most part, it's just buy/resell so we don't do
> production sized testing, rather specific tests when it's too expensive to
> outsource or we already have the necessary setup. However, we've had quite
> a few requests for TDEV & MTIE analysis, so we started looking into ways to
> do it in house for the future. I've been seeing a wealth of information on
> these boards, figured it was worth a shot to ask.
> 
> It's not a garage operation budget, but the size of the company doesn't
> permit for more expensive pieces of equipment either (like the symmetricoms
> that run for 25-30k)
> 
> I do most of the instrument and test application programming. For stability
> processing, we use stable32.
> 
> John
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Re: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

[Said Jackson]

John,

Look into getting a cheap pld reference board. Here is one for $39 from Digikey:

ICE40HX1K-BLINK-EVN

Feed it from your signal generator. Then program a counter that counts down 
7362000 steps and outputs a short pulse on underflow thus generating a 1pps 
pulse. You simply change the counter value to adjust for different device test 
frequencies. This can be done in about 40 lines of code.

Then get a $800 HP 53131A counter to measure the time interval from your DUT to 
your Rb reference and feed that data into Stable32 to generate TIE plots.

This is how we do it here.

Cant get much cheaper than that.

Bye,
Said



Sent From iPhone

On Mar 19, 2013, at 15:08, John Doering  wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> I am a grad student working part time for a frequency generator
> distributor. For the most part, it's just buy/resell so we don't do
> production sized testing, rather specific tests when it's too expensive to
> outsource or we already have the necessary setup. However, we've had quite
> a few requests for TDEV & MTIE analysis, so we started looking into ways to
> do it in house for the future. I've been seeing a wealth of information on
> these boards, figured it was worth a shot to ask.
> 
> It's not a garage operation budget, but the size of the company doesn't
> permit for more expensive pieces of equipment either (like the symmetricoms
> that run for 25-30k)
> 
> I do most of the instrument and test application programming. For stability
> processing, we use stable32.
> 
> John
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

[John Doering]

Bob,

I am a grad student working part time for a frequency generator
distributor. For the most part, it's just buy/resell so we don't do
production sized testing, rather specific tests when it's too expensive to
outsource or we already have the necessary setup. However, we've had quite
a few requests for TDEV & MTIE analysis, so we started looking into ways to
do it in house for the future. I've been seeing a wealth of information on
these boards, figured it was worth a shot to ask.

It's not a garage operation budget, but the size of the company doesn't
permit for more expensive pieces of equipment either (like the symmetricoms
that run for 25-30k)

I do most of the instrument and test application programming. For stability
processing, we use stable32.

John
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Clocks don't sync anymore (revisited)

[paul swed]

Funny you bring this up. I am just noticing a sharp clock that I always use
and it has been accurate. But it did not flip with the time change this
time and though it says its locked its off by 45 seconds slow. Yet a
lacross clock across the room seems to be on second wise but never flipped
with the time change.
As I say its just becoming apparent.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Clint Turner  wrote:

> A few weeks ago I posted a question/comment about some of my WWVB-based
> "Atomic" clocks no longer setting themselves properly. These two clocks,
> SkyScan #86716, would show the symbol indicating that they had set
> themselves, but their time was drifting away from UTC.  Interestingly, they
> *would* set themselves exactly once upon installation of the battery, but
> never again.
>
> Since that time, I've done a bit of digging around.
>
> The first suspicion was that, perhaps, the NIST had fudged a bit in the
> WWVB timecode recently, so I manually decoded a few frames and analyzed
> them:  Nothing suspicious there.
>
> The next question was if the addition of the BPSK somehow skewed the
> timing of the TRF's AGC/threshold - but logically, this didn't make sense
> since the clock *did* set itself exactly ONCE - and it wouldn't have been
> able to do this at all were this the case.  Out of curiosity I poked around
> on the board and found the trace containing the time code and found that
> despite the BPSK, its timing was exactly as it should have been:  No
> surprise there.
>
> This left the clock itself, so I did what any other Time Nut would do:  I
> built a WWVB simulator.
>
> Initially, I set it to a 2010 date - a time that I knew that the clock
> worked properly.  I had two clocks:  One that I'd just reset by pulling and
> replacing the battery while the other had been "stuck" for a few weeks, not
> resetting itself nightly as it should. I put both of these in the coupling
> loops from my WWVB simulator and over the next few days, the recently
> re-set clock happily synchronized itself while the other one with the 2013
> date was still "stuck."  I then reset that clock and it, too, behaved
> itself from then on.
>
> I then reset the clock on the simulator to a February 2013 date and time.
>  Initially, both clocks reset themselves to the current time and date at
> their next midnight, but after that, they got "stuck", never resetting
> themselves at "night" again.
>
> So, it appears to be a problem with "Broken Sand" (e.g. a silicon problem).
>
> For the morbidly curious, I have documented my efforts here:
>
> http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/**2013/02/did-nist-break-bunch-**of-radio.html-
>  The initial testing
>
> http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/**2013/03/yes-nist-did-break-**
> bunch-of-radio.html-
>  The testing with the WWVB simulator
>
> 73,
>
> Clint
> KA7OEI
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Clocks don't sync anymore (revisited)

[Clint Turner]

Someone pointed out a typo:  I wrote model number "86716" where I meant 
to write "86715" for the SkyScan clock in question.  In the linked web 
pages it is correct, however.


73,

Clint
KA7OEI


Clint Turner wrote:
A few weeks ago I posted a question/comment about some of my 
WWVB-based "Atomic" clocks no longer setting themselves properly. 
These two clocks, SkyScan #86716, would show the symbol indicating 
that they had set themselves, but their time was drifting away from 
UTC. Interestingly, they *would* set themselves exactly once upon 
installation of the battery, but never again.


Since that time, I've done a bit of digging around.

The first suspicion was that, perhaps, the NIST had fudged a bit in 
the WWVB timecode recently, so I manually decoded a few frames and 
analyzed them:  Nothing suspicious there.


The next question was if the addition of the BPSK somehow skewed the 
timing of the TRF's AGC/threshold - but logically, this didn't make 
sense since the clock *did* set itself exactly ONCE - and it wouldn't 
have been able to do this at all were this the case.  Out of curiosity 
I poked around on the board and found the trace containing the time 
code and found that despite the BPSK, its timing was exactly as it 
should have been:  No surprise there.


This left the clock itself, so I did what any other Time Nut would 
do:  I built a WWVB simulator.


Initially, I set it to a 2010 date - a time that I knew that the clock 
worked properly.  I had two clocks:  One that I'd just reset by 
pulling and replacing the battery while the other had been "stuck" for 
a few weeks, not resetting itself nightly as it should. I put both of 
these in the coupling loops from my WWVB simulator and over the next 
few days, the recently re-set clock happily synchronized itself while 
the other one with the 2013 date was still "stuck."  I then reset that 
clock and it, too, behaved itself from then on.


I then reset the clock on the simulator to a February 2013 date and 
time.  Initially, both clocks reset themselves to the current time and 
date at their next midnight, but after that, they got "stuck", never 
resetting themselves at "night" again.


So, it appears to be a problem with "Broken Sand" (e.g. a silicon 
problem).


For the morbidly curious, I have documented my efforts here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/02/did-nist-break-bunch-of-radio.html 
- The initial testing


http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/03/yes-nist-did-break-bunch-of-radio.html 
- The testing with the WWVB simulator


73,

Clint
KA7OEI



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[time-nuts] WWVB Clocks don't sync anymore (revisited)

[Clint Turner]

A few weeks ago I posted a question/comment about some of my WWVB-based 
"Atomic" clocks no longer setting themselves properly. These two clocks, 
SkyScan #86716, would show the symbol indicating that they had set 
themselves, but their time was drifting away from UTC.  Interestingly, 
they *would* set themselves exactly once upon installation of the 
battery, but never again.


Since that time, I've done a bit of digging around.

The first suspicion was that, perhaps, the NIST had fudged a bit in the 
WWVB timecode recently, so I manually decoded a few frames and analyzed 
them:  Nothing suspicious there.


The next question was if the addition of the BPSK somehow skewed the 
timing of the TRF's AGC/threshold - but logically, this didn't make 
sense since the clock *did* set itself exactly ONCE - and it wouldn't 
have been able to do this at all were this the case.  Out of curiosity I 
poked around on the board and found the trace containing the time code 
and found that despite the BPSK, its timing was exactly as it should 
have been:  No surprise there.


This left the clock itself, so I did what any other Time Nut would do:  
I built a WWVB simulator.


Initially, I set it to a 2010 date - a time that I knew that the clock 
worked properly.  I had two clocks:  One that I'd just reset by pulling 
and replacing the battery while the other had been "stuck" for a few 
weeks, not resetting itself nightly as it should. I put both of these in 
the coupling loops from my WWVB simulator and over the next few days, 
the recently re-set clock happily synchronized itself while the other 
one with the 2013 date was still "stuck."  I then reset that clock and 
it, too, behaved itself from then on.


I then reset the clock on the simulator to a February 2013 date and 
time.  Initially, both clocks reset themselves to the current time and 
date at their next midnight, but after that, they got "stuck", never 
resetting themselves at "night" again.


So, it appears to be a problem with "Broken Sand" (e.g. a silicon problem).

For the morbidly curious, I have documented my efforts here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/02/did-nist-break-bunch-of-radio.html - 
The initial testing


http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/03/yes-nist-did-break-bunch-of-radio.html - 
The testing with the WWVB simulator


73,

Clint
KA7OEI

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

Well if it ever stops snowing I plan on hitting the MIT fleas (and NEARfest) 
again this year!


Peter


On 3/19/2013 2:45 PM, paul swed wrote:

So Boston reclaims the technology capital of the world with all of the
time-nuttery folks around here. And to think people believe its silicon
valley.
I know John and I get to the MIT flea and perhaps its one of you two that I
have seen walking off with the widget I was looking for and missed out on
by a few minutes. :-)
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:03 PM, David I. Emery wrote:


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

 Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.

--
   Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston,
Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
either."

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Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5688 - Release Date: 03/19/13




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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

We should get together, especially since I was laid off a couple of weeks ago 
(after the place I worked went Ch 11 and was bought by the Chinese) and have 
some free time.


Peter

On 3/19/2013 2:03 PM, David I. Emery wrote:

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.



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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

So Boston reclaims the technology capital of the world with all of the
time-nuttery folks around here. And to think people believe its silicon
valley.
I know John and I get to the MIT flea and perhaps its one of you two that I
have seen walking off with the widget I was looking for and missed out on
by a few minutes. :-)
Regards
Paul.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:03 PM, David I. Emery wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
> > Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
> > Regards
> > Paul
>
> Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
> a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
> John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.
>
> --
>   Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston,
> Mass 02493
> "An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
> 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole -
> in
> celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now
> either."
>
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[David I. Emery]

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 01:29:44PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
> Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
> Regards
> Paul

Peter lives about 3 miles from my house in Weston... in
a corner of Natick abutting Weston.   So three of us are quite close.
John Forster lives in Belmont (or did)... which is also pretty close.

-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

Peter you are in boston, I am in franklin. We must be 25-30 miles apart
Regards
Paul

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Peter Gottlieb  wrote:

> I don't have a Loran receiver but last night in the Boston area I
> definitely was able to pick up a strong Loran signal.
>
> Peter
>
> On 3/19/2013 11:33 AM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> __**_
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> -
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5688 - Release Date: 03/19/13
>>
>>
>>
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[Peter Gottlieb]

I don't have a Loran receiver but last night in the Boston area I definitely was 
able to pick up a strong Loran signal.


Peter

On 3/19/2013 11:33 AM, paul swed wrote:

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Re: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

[Bob Camp]

Hi

One other important question - is this a basement project, or is it part of
your day job? Put another way - are you after a quick / dirty / cheap
solution or is there a real budget behind the question?

If it's a day job sort of thing, there are a number of test sets out there
that will do the job just fine. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of John Doering
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:11 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

Hi all!

First time poster here, but I've been lurking for a couple months and found
this place to be highly informative.

I want to measure TIE for a 7.362 MHz oscillator. Ultimately, I want to
process into TDEV and MTIE.

1) Is it acceptable to use the DMTD method and set a signal generator
(driven by rubidium) as the reference frequency to a value equal to the
oscillator's?

2) If not, can you point me to a more proper way of doing this type of
measurement for arbitrary frequencies that are not easily divisible into 10
MHz?

Thank you!
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[time-nuts] LORAN C still on the air 24 hours SRS 700 looking good

[paul swed]

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Re: [time-nuts] TIE measurement for arbitrary frequency oscillator

[Bob Camp]

Hi

How short a time interval (and how long) are you interested in?

How good do you expect the oscillator to be?

Bob

On Mar 19, 2013, at 12:10 AM, John Doering  wrote:

> Hi all!
> 
> First time poster here, but I've been lurking for a couple months and found
> this place to be highly informative.
> 
> I want to measure TIE for a 7.362 MHz oscillator. Ultimately, I want to
> process into TDEV and MTIE.
> 
> 1) Is it acceptable to use the DMTD method and set a signal generator
> (driven by rubidium) as the reference frequency to a value equal to the
> oscillator's?
> 
> 2) If not, can you point me to a more proper way of doing this type of
> measurement for arbitrary frequencies that are not easily divisible into 10
> MHz?
> 
> Thank you!
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