Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
The Pi has virtually no IOs, not good for any embedded system. The BeagleBone Black on the other hand has plentt of IOs Didier You can see the RPi I/O connections here: http://elinux.org/RPi_Low-level_peripherals#General_Purpose_Input.2FOutput_.28GPIO.29 Hardly "virtually no IOs", and some of the pins can be re-assigned. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
I'm surprised not to have seen the picaxe(s) mentioned. cheap enough, easily programmed, large amount of re-useable code chunks, etc. Not for production, but good enough for a few-off or individual projects, cheaper than Arduinos... Of course, I like New Micros. expensive (relatively) but directly programmable in Forth BTW, an Arduino can be converted to Forth as well. Don johncr...@aol.com > Nice topic. I learned at bit. One source of info on the PIC is a course > book and > programming kit, programmer, prototype board and components set up by > the ARRL. > > www.arrl.org > > You get all the stuff you need to get going. Software and a integrated > development environment is provided. All in one package. They also have > a couple of new courses on the Raspberry PI and the Arduino. > > I got into the PIC course last summer, read the extensive course book > and learned to program the things. Made lights blink - also made LCD say > "Hi Hottie" to my wife. > > My only comments - > > 1. Nice course for a beginner - my roots are old and in BASIC and > FORTRAN Still used today, on junker laptops. So it was fun go fool with > assembly for while. > > 2. My impression is that the PICs are powerful if you do a lot with one, > but there is a lot of work involved to get up the learning curve. > > 3. My conclusion is that my next venture - should it occur will be with > an integrated product that I can program in high level, with good input > and some display capability, because I just want to get on with the > project, but then I am not making a production device. > > Others comments re the more complex boards appreciated and noted for > future reference. > > -73 john k6iql > - > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind." De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it." Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Nice topic. I learned at bit. One source of info on the PIC is a course book and programming kit, programmer, prototype board and components set up by the ARRL. www.arrl.org You get all the stuff you need to get going. Software and a integrated development environment is provided. All in one package. They also have a couple of new courses on the Raspberry PI and the Arduino. I got into the PIC course last summer, read the extensive course book and learned to program the things. Made lights blink - also made LCD say "Hi Hottie" to my wife. My only comments - 1. Nice course for a beginner - my roots are old and in BASIC and FORTRAN Still used today, on junker laptops. So it was fun go fool with assembly for while. 2. My impression is that the PICs are powerful if you do a lot with one, but there is a lot of work involved to get up the learning curve. 3. My conclusion is that my next venture - should it occur will be with an integrated product that I can program in high level, with good input and some display capability, because I just want to get on with the project, but then I am not making a production device. Others comments re the more complex boards appreciated and noted for future reference. -73 john k6iql - ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 09:26:02PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > I realize this is a bit like water torture - sorry about that. > If I go to Microchip Direct and ask for a PIC 18F with two > UARTS and two A/D's I get the PIC18F86J72 and PIC 18F87J72. > To me the second one is the obvious winner. It's got twice > the flash for next to nothing more money. 1-25 piece price is > $6.04. > Same search, 1 A/D, 4 UARTS, lowest cost this time. PIC18F65J94 > is the winner. Lowest price package is $3.30 in 1-25 pieces. 4 UARTS are untypical for PICs and result in higher price as the device usually has more pins (which makes them more expensive) > Are those some *very* arbitrary choices - you bet they are. > They are random picks, and were not optimized to show any > particular thing. Only to target an application that had some > serial i/o and a bit of A/D involvement. > Bottom line - not all PIC's are $1. once you start adding > peripherals. For $6 over in ARM land, you can get a lot of > chip. To be fair, my experience has been that you can do better > in the PIC24 line once you start adding stuff. Searching the > PIC24's is hard enough that my brief search tonight did not > show up a lower cost part. PIC24F04KA200 1 UART, 10 ADC, XLP, 1.38 USD (1.05 USD @1k) PIC24EP32GP202 2 UART, 6 ADC, 2.76 USD (1.86 USD @1k) One (dis)advantage of the Microchip PICs is that there are so many different families and parts. best, Herbert > Bob > On May 25, 2013, at 9:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> I just realized the "buy direct" button on that page requires a login. The >> single piece direct price is $9.70. First price break is at 25 pieces (to >> $8.95). >> Bob >> On May 25, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> Hi >>> It's one of the Freescale K60's they have them in several speeds and >>> packages. Others have similar parts. >>> http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=K60_120&nodeId=01624698C9DE2DDDAF&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&fromSearch=false >>> hopefully shows the family information >>> The first part on the list is the MK60FN1M0VLQ12 for 8% more money you can >>> get the 150 MHz core rather than the 120 MHz core version. Both have enough >>> pins that you can get at a lot of the peripherals at once. Both have enough >>> pins that they are not a lot of fun to solder by hand. Of course their BGA >>> cousins are even less hand solder friendly…. >>> Bob >>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote: On 5/25/2013 3:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit > A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than > $10. Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. > Comes with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. Bob: I was wondering which manufacturer/part you were referring to. Thanks, --- Graham == >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Didier Juges wrote: > While I have often said that I have more time than money, I still consider > that my time is too scarce (or valuable) for assembly language. > > My opinion is that the language for small embedded devices is C. Some may > disagree, but after over 40 years of writing software for a whole bunch of > platforms (obviously not all in C), I see no reason to switch to something > else for small embedded systems. > > Therefore make sure you select a chip/family/architecture for which you > can get a decent C compiler. > > Friends don't let friends write in assembly. > > I agree entirely. C is pretty close to assembly itself in a way... given its history where *p1++ = *p2++; was one PDP-11 instruction. It's so much easier to get a program going in C than PIC assembly; now which way around do I have to put the operands to subtract a constant? (I had macros to do such things before I switched to a C compiler.) I have tried a few PIC C compilers and actually paid money for the SourceBoost compiler. I look at the assembly output and it usually does at least as good a job as I would. If not and it's timing critical, I can embed some assembly, though the little review I just did showed that the timing critical parts were in C! Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Didier Juges wrote: > > My opinion is that the language for small embedded devices is C. Some may > disagree, but after over 40 years of writing software for a whole bunch of > platforms (obviously not all in C), I see no reason to switch to something > else for small embedded systems. > > Therefore make sure you select a chip/family/architecture for which you can > get a decent C compiler. I've been at this for a long time too, Yes C is the language now for embedded devices but sometimes you need assembly for some odd-ball critical case. If so you can mix C and Assembly. Typically you would only ever write at most a few critical sections in assembly. That is the best advice, find a good C compiler. UNLESS this is all new to you and you don't have years of programming experience. In that case get an Arduino. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 10:04:59PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > If you are putting money into a Microchip programmer, I'd > probably head over to the PIC Kit 3 rather than the 2. It will > do debug as well as programming on the range of parts. Unfortunately the command line support is missing in the PICkit 3, although there was/is an efford to make the 'new' PICkit 3 compatible with the PICkit 2. (as usualy, marketing decisions ... :) And the PICkit 2 can do all the debugging the PICkit 3 does plus it can work as UART and Logic Analyzer as well. > Having breakpoints and debug is a *good* thing. Depends, using breakpoints and/or debug on time critical stuff (like software PWM or UART) usually results in unexpected results, more often it is simpler to add one or more LEDs to display a state or do 'printf' style debugging via serial (UART/I2C/SPI). But as always, YMMV. best, Herbert > Bob > On May 25, 2013, at 9:44 PM, Herbert Poetzl wrote: >> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 08:46:03AM -0500, Jason Rabel wrote: >>> I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC >>> chip for some smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good >>> (and cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or >>> website)? I have a fairly recent willem eprom programmer that >>> I'm hoping I can use. >> Microchip has good product selection tools like this one: >> http://www.microchip.com/maps/microcontroller.aspx >> (note the plus signs on the right side of each section) >>> I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first >>> project I would like to have it connected to a serial port on >>> one of my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current >>> time, or NTP/GPS info) and output that on a little LED display. >> Depending on the type of LED display you have in mind, you >> want to have PWM capabilities (multiplexing) and high >> current source/sink, as well as an (E)U(S)ART for the serial >> communication. >> A four digit LED display can be easily controlled by a >> PIC16F1503 (price about 0.8 USD, 14 pins) and the required >> documents are available on the Microchip site: >> http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en553475 >> You can do the UART part in software for low data rates >> or simply take the PIC16F1508/9 which already includes >> an EUSART (price about 1.3 USD, 20 pins) >> One programmer for many PIC chips (8 bit to 32 bit) is >> the PICkit2 which can be bought for less than 30 USD >> (via usb, works fine on Linux and MacOS as well) >> HTH, >> Herbert >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Having used PICs since 1990, I've designed them into projects rather than getting a board like a Parallax or Arduino (either of which are far more expensive than the chip and the few components required to make it work) and then shoehorning someone else's board into my project. Since the late 90's, I've used the PICC compiler (by CCS) which - once you know it - can produce reasonably tight code that is can also be fast: I've done a number of audio DSP projects on 16F platforms - mostly in "C" - and had plenty of horsepower. A bit expensive, but I updated only every 4-7 years and with as many projects that I've done (I have used rails of the things with personal/amateur/work projects as well as some commercial prototypes) the time/power is worth the cost. The PICs that I use the most are the 12F683 - an 8-pin device with 10 bits of A/D and a 10 bit PWM: With a 20 MHz xtal, I've done audio DSP with this. As it turns out, a great many projects require <=6 pins (the PIC using an internal R/C clock - 1 of the pins is input-only) and this will do the trick. The other one that I use is the 16F88 - It has the A/D, PWM as well as I2C/SCL and USARTs and internal clocks - an 18 pin device, 16 of which can be used for I/O (1 of those only does "I"). With more RAM/Program memory, one can do more DSP than with the '683... For more horsepower I'll often use the 18F2620/18F4620's - 28/40 pin devices (respectively) and these have more I/O and peripherals. There's are close cousins of this that also has hardware-based USB (I don't recall the number of an example, however...) I've yet to do anything with the 24F and dsPICs, but maybe, the next time I update the compiler... 73, Clint KA7OEI ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi If you are putting money into a Microchip programmer, I'd probably head over to the PIC Kit 3 rather than the 2. It will do debug as well as programming on the range of parts. Having breakpoints and debug is a *good* thing. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 9:44 PM, Herbert Poetzl wrote: > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 08:46:03AM -0500, Jason Rabel wrote: >> I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC >> chip for some smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good >> (and cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or >> website)? I have a fairly recent willem eprom programmer that >> I'm hoping I can use. > > Microchip has good product selection tools like this one: > http://www.microchip.com/maps/microcontroller.aspx > (note the plus signs on the right side of each section) > >> I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first >> project I would like to have it connected to a serial port on >> one of my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current >> time, or NTP/GPS info) and output that on a little LED display. > > Depending on the type of LED display you have in mind, you > want to have PWM capabilities (multiplexing) and high > current source/sink, as well as an (E)U(S)ART for the serial > communication. > > A four digit LED display can be easily controlled by a > PIC16F1503 (price about 0.8 USD, 14 pins) and the required > documents are available on the Microchip site: > http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en553475 > > You can do the UART part in software for low data rates > or simply take the PIC16F1508/9 which already includes > an EUSART (price about 1.3 USD, 20 pins) > > One programmer for many PIC chips (8 bit to 32 bit) is > the PICkit2 which can be bought for less than 30 USD > (via usb, works fine on Linux and MacOS as well) > > HTH, > Herbert > >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi I have had several conversations with 16 bit chip designers over the past couple of years. Each time the M0 or similar ARM parts has come up. The consensus seems to be that getting (internal) funding for future 16 bit parts is going to be tough. The tiny 8 bit parts will survive and move forward. Getting the money for "the next big thing" in 16 bits - not likely. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 9:39 PM, Didier Juges wrote: > While I have often said that I have more time than money, I still consider > that my time is too scarce (or valuable) for assembly language. > > My opinion is that the language for small embedded devices is C. Some may > disagree, but after over 40 years of writing software for a whole bunch of > platforms (obviously not all in C), I see no reason to switch to something > else for small embedded systems. > > Therefore make sure you select a chip/family/architecture for which you can > get a decent C compiler. > > Friends don't let friends write in assembly. > > Nowadays, the Cortex M0 is on par price-wise with 8 bit controllers. If I had > to start over today, I would probably start there. > > Didier KO4BB > > > Jason Rabel wrote: > >> My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. >> >> First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted >> to do aren't complicated or require special busses. It is >> things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, >> or keep it simple with just one PIC. ;) >> >> Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But >> say after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 >> embedded system starts to add up. >> >> I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first >> and what I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm >> really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many >> different options existed (and at so many different price >> points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino >> and TI Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. >> >> I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new >> challenge and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long >> time. >> >> Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write >> code in PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and >> am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages >> I've used in the past are now probably considered archaic or >> defunct. ;) >> >> Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have >> been most helpful! >> >> Jason >> >>> How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the >>> AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others >> but >>> if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not >>> able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected >>> something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can >>> list pros and cons. >> >>> You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. >>> Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are >>> willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do >>> you have? >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > -- > Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other > things. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
The Pi has virtually no IOs, not good for any embedded system. The BeagleBone Black on the other hand has plentt of IOs Didier Jim Lux wrote: >On 5/25/13 10:55 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: >> >> >> 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 >> >and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. > > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
While I have often said that I have more time than money, I still consider that my time is too scarce (or valuable) for assembly language. My opinion is that the language for small embedded devices is C. Some may disagree, but after over 40 years of writing software for a whole bunch of platforms (obviously not all in C), I see no reason to switch to something else for small embedded systems. Therefore make sure you select a chip/family/architecture for which you can get a decent C compiler. Friends don't let friends write in assembly. Nowadays, the Cortex M0 is on par price-wise with 8 bit controllers. If I had to start over today, I would probably start there. Didier KO4BB Jason Rabel wrote: >My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. > >First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted >to do aren't complicated or require special busses. It is >things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, >or keep it simple with just one PIC. ;) > >Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But >say after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 >embedded system starts to add up. > >I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first >and what I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm >really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many >different options existed (and at so many different price >points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino >and TI Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. > >I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new >challenge and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long >time. > >Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write >code in PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and >am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages >I've used in the past are now probably considered archaic or >defunct. ;) > >Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have >been most helpful! > >Jason > >> How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the >> AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others >but >> if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not >> able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected >> something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can >> list pros and cons. > >> You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. >> Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are >> willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do >> you have? > >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 08:46:03AM -0500, Jason Rabel wrote: > I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC > chip for some smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good > (and cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or > website)? I have a fairly recent willem eprom programmer that > I'm hoping I can use. Microchip has good product selection tools like this one: http://www.microchip.com/maps/microcontroller.aspx (note the plus signs on the right side of each section) > I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first > project I would like to have it connected to a serial port on > one of my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current > time, or NTP/GPS info) and output that on a little LED display. Depending on the type of LED display you have in mind, you want to have PWM capabilities (multiplexing) and high current source/sink, as well as an (E)U(S)ART for the serial communication. A four digit LED display can be easily controlled by a PIC16F1503 (price about 0.8 USD, 14 pins) and the required documents are available on the Microchip site: http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en553475 You can do the UART part in software for low data rates or simply take the PIC16F1508/9 which already includes an EUSART (price about 1.3 USD, 20 pins) One programmer for many PIC chips (8 bit to 32 bit) is the PICkit2 which can be bought for less than 30 USD (via usb, works fine on Linux and MacOS as well) HTH, Herbert > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi To *maybe* bring this back to a bit more timing related region of internet space: To make any of these parts really do timing "stuff" (as opposed to simply display strings) you need some glue. A CPLD or better yet an FPGA can give you a *lot* of glue for the money. A board with a Cyclone V and a K60 CPU might be able to do quite a bit for not a lot of money. Get "some guy in Australia" to make them up cheap …. Duck and run for cover ….. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 9:21 PM, Paul wrote: > On Sat May 25 20:18:20 EDT 2013 > >>> A $9 USB to 3.3V serial adapter connects to >>> the serial console unless you prefer ssh or VNC. > >> Once you have it up and running, sure... >> Or maybe, someone has a SD image that you can just dump onto an SD > > The Pi, unlike the the Beaglebone Black (BBB) doesn't come with an OS. > The two images I've used both support a serial console (via the USB port or > the UART) > where you can run the standard Pi set-up program to enable ssh. > > The BBB cleverly presents itself as a disk volume and then lets you > ssh in via a virtual network running over the USB port on your > computer that's also providing power. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat May 25 20:18:20 EDT 2013 >> A $9 USB to 3.3V serial adapter connects to >> the serial console unless you prefer ssh or VNC. >Once you have it up and running, sure... >Or maybe, someone has a SD image that you can just dump onto an SD The Pi, unlike the the Beaglebone Black (BBB) doesn't come with an OS. The two images I've used both support a serial console (via the USB port or the UART) where you can run the standard Pi set-up program to enable ssh. The BBB cleverly presents itself as a disk volume and then lets you ssh in via a virtual network running over the USB port on your computer that's also providing power. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
Hi I realize this is a bit like water torture - sorry about that. If I go to Microchip Direct and ask for a PIC 18F with two UARTS and two A/D's I get the PIC18F86J72 and PIC 18F87J72. To me the second one is the obvious winner. It's got twice the flash for next to nothing more money. 1-25 piece price is $6.04. Same search, 1 A/D, 4 UARTS, lowest cost this time. PIC18F65J94 is the winner. Lowest price package is $3.30 in 1-25 pieces. Are those some *very* arbitrary choices - you bet they are. They are random picks, and were not optimized to show any particular thing. Only to target an application that had some serial i/o and a bit of A/D involvement. Bottom line - not all PIC's are $1. once you start adding peripherals. For $6 over in ARM land, you can get a lot of chip. To be fair, my experience has been that you can do better in the PIC24 line once you start adding stuff. Searching the PIC24's is hard enough that my brief search tonight did not show up a lower cost part. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 9:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > I just realized the "buy direct" button on that page requires a login. The > single piece direct price is $9.70. First price break is at 25 pieces (to > $8.95). > > Bob > > On May 25, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >> It's one of the Freescale K60's they have them in several speeds and >> packages. Others have similar parts. >> >> http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=K60_120&nodeId=01624698C9DE2DDDAF&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&fromSearch=false >> >> hopefully shows the family information >> >> The first part on the list is the MK60FN1M0VLQ12 for 8% more money you can >> get the 150 MHz core rather than the 120 MHz core version. Both have enough >> pins that you can get at a lot of the peripherals at once. Both have enough >> pins that they are not a lot of fun to solder by hand. Of course their BGA >> cousins are even less hand solder friendly…. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On May 25, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote: >> >>> On 5/25/2013 3:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than $10. Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. Comes with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. >>> >>> >>> Bob: >>> >>> I was wondering which manufacturer/part you were referring to. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --- Graham >>> >>> == >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 04:03:36PM -0700, Chris Albertson wrote: > In general PICs need assembly language for many things. > AVRs almost never need assembly. I've done quite a number of PIC projects, from low end 8 bit up to the high end 32 bit controllers, and except for a really time critical software PWM solution I never had to write in assembler (although I'm quite comfortable with assembler code :) > The reason is that the AVR designers studied C compilers > and made the AVR an easy compiler target. > A compiler writer like to have an "orthogonal" instruction > set and some other features. So the AVR compirrs generate > very good code and there is little reason to resort to > assembly Recent PIC toolchains use gcc which allows for inline assembly and provides a reasonable set of builtin instructions to allow for handling almost everything within C. The compiler does a good job, and there are proprietary compilers available if you need to achieve really high optimization (size or speed wise) best, Herbert > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Rex wrote: >> On 5/25/2013 1:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) >>> you will likely need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding >>> on those parts was in assembly language. They are old enough >>> / slow enough / small RAM enough that things like C (or the >>> other high level languages you listed) really don't do well >>> on them. >> Several years back I did a bunch of stuff with various PIC16 >> series chips. All of it, except for some minor assembler >> tweaks, was done in C. Glad I did not know it wasn't >> practical. I would have wasted a lot of time coding it in >> assembler. Of course my goal was just getting something done, >> not being elegant or very efficient. Time-nutty stuff like >> TVB's frequency divider may require the detail and efficiency >> only provided by assembler. >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > -- > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
I suspect Linux based systems are a few sigma away from the original goal of a cheap pic choice...:) But to get back to the original point, you can get samples of most of the PIC chips from MicroChip for free. I think the limit is 3 per week. Or 30 days, I don't remember. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 20:36, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If you want Linux, you probably also want something like an A9 or better. The > M0 and even the M4's MCU's are not really targeted at Linux. Can you pack it > into a big M4 - sure, it'll be a tight fit and you may not have everything > you really wanted to have. Oddly enough some of the M4's have better native > ethernet than some of their "big brothers". Weird…. > > Bob > > On May 25, 2013, at 8:12 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: > >> If you go arm cortex and linux, you will need to make your code a "service." >> You will want it to start up by itself and if for some reason it crashes, >> you will want it to restart itself. The buzzword is "harden" and the >> techniques vary depending on the distribution. >> >> You should check the architecture of the system. I didn't realize many of >> these boards run the ethernet off the usb hub. My recollection is the a10 >> used by Allwinner does not do that. >> >> Opensuse has JEOS, which stands for Just Enough OS. Less is more! >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
Hi I just realized the "buy direct" button on that page requires a login. The single piece direct price is $9.70. First price break is at 25 pieces (to $8.95). Bob On May 25, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > It's one of the Freescale K60's they have them in several speeds and > packages. Others have similar parts. > > http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=K60_120&nodeId=01624698C9DE2DDDAF&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&fromSearch=false > > hopefully shows the family information > > The first part on the list is the MK60FN1M0VLQ12 for 8% more money you can > get the 150 MHz core rather than the 120 MHz core version. Both have enough > pins that you can get at a lot of the peripherals at once. Both have enough > pins that they are not a lot of fun to solder by hand. Of course their BGA > cousins are even less hand solder friendly…. > > Bob > > > On May 25, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote: > >> On 5/25/2013 3:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >>> You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit >>> A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than $10. >>> Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. Comes >>> with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. >> >> >> Bob: >> >> I was wondering which manufacturer/part you were referring to. >> >> Thanks, >> --- Graham >> >> == > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
Hi It's one of the Freescale K60's they have them in several speeds and packages. Others have similar parts. http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=K60_120&nodeId=01624698C9DE2DDDAF&tab=Buy_Parametric_Tab&fromSearch=false hopefully shows the family information The first part on the list is the MK60FN1M0VLQ12 for 8% more money you can get the 150 MHz core rather than the 120 MHz core version. Both have enough pins that you can get at a lot of the peripherals at once. Both have enough pins that they are not a lot of fun to solder by hand. Of course their BGA cousins are even less hand solder friendly…. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote: > On 5/25/2013 3:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit >> A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than $10. >> Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. Comes >> with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. > > > Bob: > > I was wondering which manufacturer/part you were referring to. > > Thanks, > --- Graham > > == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi If you want Linux, you probably also want something like an A9 or better. The M0 and even the M4's MCU's are not really targeted at Linux. Can you pack it into a big M4 - sure, it'll be a tight fit and you may not have everything you really wanted to have. Oddly enough some of the M4's have better native ethernet than some of their "big brothers". Weird…. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 8:12 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: > If you go arm cortex and linux, you will need to make your code a "service." > You will want it to start up by itself and if for some reason it crashes, you > will want it to restart itself. The buzzword is "harden" and the techniques > vary depending on the distribution. > > You should check the architecture of the system. I didn't realize many of > these boards run the ethernet off the usb hub. My recollection is the a10 > used by Allwinner does not do that. > > Opensuse has JEOS, which stands for Just Enough OS. Less is more! > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 5/25/13 2:10 PM, Paul wrote: *Jim Lux* S*at May 25 16:53:50 EDT 2013* * 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40***>and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. A $9 USB to 3.3V serial adapter connects to the serial console unless you prefer ssh or VNC. Once you have it up and running, sure.. heck, you could use Ethernet and telnet or ssh or and presumably set it up so it will boot off the network. But you need that way to get it configured. Or maybe, someone has a SD image that you can just dump onto an SD, stick it in, it recognizes, boots and you're happy, and never hook up a monitor. A bit of googling did find such a thing, using Raspian Wheezy on a SD that has ethernet built into it, so it goes out and hits your dhcp daemon and then you can ssh to it this *is* a bit more of a pain than "install IDE from install set, connect USB cable, start programming" but it does give you access to a more sophisticated platform. Albeit, I'm not as sure it's as "low level hardware control" oriented, but it would probably be ok. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
If you go arm cortex and linux, you will need to make your code a "service." You will want it to start up by itself and if for some reason it crashes, you will want it to restart itself. The buzzword is "harden" and the techniques vary depending on the distribution. You should check the architecture of the system. I didn't realize many of these boards run the ethernet off the usb hub. My recollection is the a10 used by Allwinner does not do that. Opensuse has JEOS, which stands for Just Enough OS. Less is more! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi It always depends on what you are trying to do and what you are happy with as a result. Back when packing lots of stuff into a PIC mattered, the only way I could get it done (literally millions of lines of code spread across many dozens of projects) was with assembler. The C compilers that were available back then, and the compromises they required just didn't get enough done … Bob On May 25, 2013, at 6:39 PM, KD0GLS wrote: > > On 25 May 2013, at 15:22, Bob Camp wrote: > >> If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely >> need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly >> language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things >> like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well >> on them. > > > Well, not to be argumentative, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. > The overwhelming majority (95+%) of code I've written for PICs (numbering in > the high tens of thousands of lines) has been written in C and with > overwhelming success. I've used it both professionally and casually on 8-bit > devices ranging from PIC18F all the way down to PIC10F with little trouble. > While I agree there will always be a place for assembly language on smaller > devices and for certain applications, I would never conclude that well > written C "doesn't do well" on PIC16s. Furthermore, today's PIC16F product > line is quite broad, including several higher-performance parts which make > coding in C even more attractive. They aren't all "old" and all "slow", at > least in their product class. > > 73, > Brent, KD0GLS, Minneapolis > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi At least on the code I've tried both ways, there's about a 2:1 difference in what you can get done on a low end PIC with assembly vs C. There are a lot of things you can get away with in assembler that drive a C compiler a bit nuts…. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 5:24 PM, Rex wrote: > On 5/25/2013 1:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely >> need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly >> language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things >> like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well >> on them. >> >> > Several years back I did a bunch of stuff with various PIC16 series chips. > All of it, except for some minor assembler tweaks, was done in C. Glad I did > not know it wasn't practical. I would have wasted a lot of time coding it in > assembler. Of course my goal was just getting something done, not being > elegant or very efficient. Time-nutty stuff like TVB's frequency divider may > require the detail and efficiency only provided by assembler. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Checking Time difference between PCs
About using w32tm /stripchart and the µs resolution : Despite RFC 1305 compliant, Microsoft w32tm is still bound to the clock interrupt frequency fed to the processor : http://serverfault.com/questions/488983/is-it-viable-to-use-w32tm-stripchart-to-judge-time-variance-of-two-windows-host So if you have a Cs clock as a reference in your computer, or maybe a PTP-based external reference, you might not benefit from the µs resolution Chris On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote: > Dear me! > > Your clock is off by four years and change! > > Bill Hawkins! > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Christopher Quarksnow > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:06 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Checking Time difference between PCs > > This might do, even though I doubt the routines are using rdtsc to > interpolate nondeterministic offset of the PIC architecture. > > w32tm /stripchart /computer: [/period:] [/dataonly] > [/samples:] > > The current time is 3/8/2009 21:05:30 (local time).21:05:30 > d:+00.000s o:+00.3047845s > > Cheers, > > Chris > > > On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Rex Moncur > wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone has suggestions as to how to check the timing > variations > > between two PCs that are running windows. > > > > The background to this request is that I am running two instances of > the > > Weak Signal Program WSJT on the same computer and get variations of > +/-0.2 > > seconds. It has been suggested that the variations might be caused by > the > > windows operating system. As a check on this I am proposing to run > two PCs > > locked by GPS-18 USB and set by NMEATime which should show the > difference > > on > > WSJT. But is there some program that will show the difference due to > the > > PC > > clocks alone? Or perhaps a program that outputs the PC time as a pulse > on a > > sound card so I can compare these on a CRO. > > > > Regards Rex VK7MO > > > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
In general PICs need assembly language for many things. AVRs almost never need assembly. The reason is that the AVR designers studied C compilers and made the AVR an easy compiler target. A compiler writer like to have an "orthogonal" instruction set and some other features. So the AVR compirrs generate very good code and there is little reason to resort to assembly On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Rex wrote: > On 5/25/2013 1:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> >> If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely >> need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly >> language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things >> like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well >> on them. >> >> > Several years back I did a bunch of stuff with various PIC16 series chips. > All of it, except for some minor assembler tweaks, was done in C. Glad I did > not know it wasn't practical. I would have wasted a lot of time coding it in > assembler. Of course my goal was just getting something done, not being > elegant or very efficient. Time-nutty stuff like TVB's frequency divider may > require the detail and efficiency only provided by assembler. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
On 5/25/2013 3:40 PM, Bob Camp wrote: You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than $10. Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. Comes with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. Bob: I was wondering which manufacturer/part you were referring to. Thanks, --- Graham == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
charles_steinm...@lavabit.com said: > My question here is more pointed: If one is going to learn a new system > today for timing and other measurement/control projects, which "empire" is > likely the best one to choose? I'd split things into 3 piles. PIC, AVR and friends are really small. Scan the selector guides to get a feel for things. A typical unit will have a few K of flash memory for the program and 256 bytes of RAM for data. The I/O is limited by the number of pins. It's reasonable to count cycles and do exact timing. Don't expect much of the c library to be available. This is the sort of thing you would use to control a microwave oven. tvb has several examples. http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/ The next step up is the low end ARM chips. They have more RAM and flash, and the ALU is 32 bits wide. (PIC and AVR have 16/32 bit versions that are pushing up into this space.) You can write real code, just not a lot of it. A typical low end unit will have 16K RAM and 64K flash. It's big brother might have 64K RAM and 256K of flash. They typically come in clumps with several members of a family sharing the same set of peripherals but having different amounts of RAM and Flash. Dev boards typically come with the biggest one. You can save some cash when you get into production by using a smaller version. You will need 3 chunks of documentation. One for the development environment. One for the peripherals. One for the instruction set. If you code in c, you don't need to know all the instruction details, but you probably want to read the overview part of the manual so you know how the chip really works. The high end is the SOC (system on chip) ARM units targeted at cell phones. They have off-chip DRAM so what you get depends on the board rather than the chip. These can run Linux so you need to be a system administrator rather than (or as well as) a low level bit twiddler. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 25 May 2013, at 15:22, Bob Camp wrote: > If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely > need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly > language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things > like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well on > them. Well, not to be argumentative, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. The overwhelming majority (95+%) of code I've written for PICs (numbering in the high tens of thousands of lines) has been written in C and with overwhelming success. I've used it both professionally and casually on 8-bit devices ranging from PIC18F all the way down to PIC10F with little trouble. While I agree there will always be a place for assembly language on smaller devices and for certain applications, I would never conclude that well written C "doesn't do well" on PIC16s. Furthermore, today's PIC16F product line is quite broad, including several higher-performance parts which make coding in C even more attractive. They aren't all "old" and all "slow", at least in their product class. 73, Brent, KD0GLS, Minneapolis ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 5/25/2013 1:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote: If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well on them. Several years back I did a bunch of stuff with various PIC16 series chips. All of it, except for some minor assembler tweaks, was done in C. Glad I did not know it wasn't practical. I would have wasted a lot of time coding it in assembler. Of course my goal was just getting something done, not being elegant or very efficient. Time-nutty stuff like TVB's frequency divider may require the detail and efficiency only provided by assembler. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
I agree with everything below. It is a good argument for AVR. The AVR was designed specifically wit the needs of the compliter writer in mind. Because of this C compilers can generate very good AVR code and there is rarely a good reason to program an AVR in assembly, although you can. The low-end AVRs start at under $1 for an 8-pin model and go up. As was said below the total cost of a project. But with uP being so cheap you might use several. Perhaps one just to read a rotary shaft encoder and the rest of the front panel. Use another one to red sensors and so on. At $1 each it is some time easier to use several then to figure out how to multi-task a larger controller. But as was said be me and others the tool chain matters a lot. These chips are so cheap at $1 each that cost is not an issue but your TIME is. So what you might do is download the tool chains. Try them out. You don't need tha hardware to compile a program. Some might even have simulators. So try out developmnt systsms and shee which of them you like.The Arduimo is self contained, as is TI's launch pad. Some AVR or PIC tool chains are DIY with terminal windows, and text editors or you can use Eclipse. Set up a few and find which you think you like. On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely > need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly > language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things > like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well on > them. > > A PIC might cost you $1.31. The pc board it goes on will likely cost you $10 > in quantity. The regulators and clock source might cost you $2. Throw in $3 > for resistors, capacitors, and connectors. If you go for a one up PC board, > figure $50 or so. All of that is before you do anything related to your > project. That will likely add cost for a power supply, an enclosure, and > often a display. It is not at all unusual for your total outlay for even a > simple project to hit $100. In that case the micro is 1% of the total cost. A > very fancy, factor of 100 better micro than a basic PIC is *maybe* $6 these > days. Depending on how you define and measure better, the answer could be $3. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 9390 GPS RX
On 5/25/2013 12:43 AM, Mark C. Stephens wrote: Hey Ed, Just knocked up a temperature sensor with a Dallas single wire temperature sensor thingy, a pic and an LCD display. So, I will know for sure I am hitting the xtal turning point. I figured you had been right about everything so perhaps my temperature gun was out. It's probably a handy bit of kit to have, because no doubt I have a couple of ovens here that are playing up ad some sort of accurate temperature measurement and logging would be a handy bit of kit to have. It spits out the time and temperature reading once per second via a serial interface as well as displays in on the LCD.. I had already sort of written the code 10 years ago, just hadn't gotten around to finishing the hardware. :) A few changes here and there for the pic pin out and it worked! Just going through the warm-up cycle now, I expect an hour should do it. Seems to be heating that crystal very slowly. I think there still may be a problem around that wee transistor that limits the current to the heater transistor. Or perhaps by putting the right value 6K81 resistor and a new op-amp changed the dynamics and I may need to revisit R8. I have checked the PSU, its 17.3v spot on. I checked the temperature after an hour and it was only 58 degrees ): I stuck a resistance box across R8 and adjusted until I got ~79 on my temperature meter. The resistance is 680R which seems very low to me, but not outside the circuit specifications. As you change R8, watch the frequency of the oscillator as it changes. When your temperature meter shows 79C, is the frequency at its lowest point? Although the frequency changes with age, I've never seen anything to suggest that the turning point changes with age. Anyone reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Regardless of the actual temperature, you want to adjust the crystal temperature so that you hit the turning point. For an AT crystal, that will give you the lowest frequency. Once you get to the turning point you will see if you will be able to get it working by changing the capacitors. For test purposes, if the crystal frequency is only slightly out of range, change the temperature with R8 until you can get to 10 MHz. But appear to have dug myself into a hole. It looks like the hole was already there. But you kind of jumped in with both feet! :) I disconnected the EFC as per the manual and hooked up a 10K 'Pot' across the 17.3v supply and the wiper to the crystal boards E9 point (EFC) At zero volts the 10 MHz is very high at around 1500 and at 17.3 volts it is around 1650. So, there is either a problem, with the crystal or the surrounding circuit. If the crystal really has drifted that far you might have trouble pulling it back. Check the temperature as shown above. Note that your frequency is too high and that's just what you would expect if you were away from the crystal turning point. Looking at the circuit C11 and C12 are selectable components. C11 selects the centre frequency and C12 selects the adjust range. The range in the circuit is specified as 4.7 to 100 pf, but my schematic is a bit blurry so it could be 4.7pf to 180pf. So I went from 10pf -> 100pf for C11. At 100 Pf the 10Mhz is closest at ~1300 (with 0v EFC) There is no way I will hit 10Mhz by adjusting C11. My copy of the schematic isn't any clearer than yours. But, who cares what the manual says? Load on more capacitance and see what happens. If it works, it works. Make sure that any capacitor you use there is NPO/C0G. I guess my next step is to pull the board out again and check components, especially C3/C4/C5. The manual only talks about C10, C11, and C12 as affecting the frequency. C3 looks like it might resonate with T1 to couple the 10 MHz to the next stage. A fault there would affect the output amplitude, but not the frequency. It wouldn't hurt to check C4 and C5. Running high in frequency suggests that a capacitor has dropped in value which is a likely failure mode if, for example, it cracked. No hope of lock when the EFC can't pull the Xtal into the correct frequency is there. Nope. The oscillator has to hit 10 MHz and it should have room to spare on the EFC to accomodate shifts in temperature, voltage, aging, etc. I am wondering if we getting off subject for the list? If a repair saga of a relatively common Rb standard is off-topic, the list is in a really sad state. Final point: SLOW DOWN!!! You're changing too much, too fast. You're taking the thing apart and putting it together multiple times. This circuit is over 20 years old and has spent it's entire working life running hot. The boards are getting brittle and the glue holding the traces onto the board is fragile. There are parts that are completely irreplaceable. You're going to ruin it if you keep going the way you are. I know you're enthusiastic, but less speed often results in more progress. Ed
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:42:19 +0200 Attila Kinali wrote: > Last but not least: There is an advantage in using more popular > chips (AVR, Arm Cortex-M). You will find more knowhow and help on the > net for the toolchain or other problems. You will find more ready made > libraries and code collections out there. And you will have a gcc version > with less bugs. A little addendum: Although a lot of Arm chips are out there today, the Arm part only concerns the core of the chip. Ie the assembler, the registers and memory layout (with Cortex-M also the interrupt and part of the clock system). The whole rest is _not_ standardized and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, even between differnt lines of the same manufacturer. You will have an easier time switching from one Arm family to another, as you can keep your toolchain mostly unchanged. But you will have to change all drivers for your peripherals and some of the code that deals with clocks and interrupts. Ie it is a lot less work then switching to a totally new architecture, but the cost is not zero. Attila Kinali -- The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists who also happen to be insane and gross. -- unknown ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:09:11 -0400 "Charles P. Steinmetz" wrote: > On another thread, Bob wrote: > > >If the objective is to complete a very simple, low powered project > >and be done with it, go with the Arduino. If the objective is to > >learn an empire, be very careful about which empire you pick. The > >ARM boys are quickly gobbling up a lot of territory that once was > >populated by a number of competing CPU's. Learning this stuff, and > >getting good at it is a significant investment of time. > > I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to hijack the first > one, which I'm hoping will continue to provide useful information > about the broad continuum of available devices, from the "easy enough > for a child to assemble and program" to the "need to learn machine language." > > My question here is more pointed: If one is going to learn a new > system today for timing and other measurement/control projects, which > "empire" is likely the best one to choose? [...] > Some of the more systemic (less application-oriented) factors would > be, which system is more versatile? Which has the most useful PC > cards (or development kits) available that do not require the user to > start with a bare chip? Which is likely to be around and supported > longer? Which is easier to program? For which is one likely to find > more programs to study and pirate, more libraries, etc.? Which is > easier to outfit with removable memory (USB drives, memory cards, > etc.)? Which has better and faster ADCs and DACs? I'm sure there > are lots of other factors worth considering, as well. You are asking a difficult question. And one for which the answer changes over time... a lot! I would ask the question slightly different: What is your limiting factor? Time or money? Most hobby projects will be somewhere inbetween time and money limited. If you know which one limits you more, you have a better chance to choose the right uC family. Given that you know what your uC should be able to do and you know the technically limiting factors (power consumption, computation power, special peripherals, interfaces to the outside world, space) and you have an idea what the uC landscape looks like out there, you can choose one based on how much it costs or how much work it involves to get it up and running. Please do not forget that designing a uC board, or even using an evaluation board, takes the least of our time. A lot more time is spend writing the software. I.e. when selecting a uC you should do a quick search for libraries and/or RTOS for the families you consider. Having a good library that you can rely on to do the ground work (like controlling a serial interface, or doing I2C transfers) can save you a lot of time. Oh, and do yourself a favor and have a look how the code of the library looks like, especially if it is provided by the chip manufacturer himself. Most of these are very badly written and are more work to use than writing it yourself from scratch. Good documentation, ie fully available datasheets, with lots of explenations and diagrams, are a must. You don't want to reverse engineer what the designers did to write your ADC driver. A good example how to do it is IMHO Ti. Their datasheets are as complete as i can imagine them to be and they provide with each chip an extensive and embarassingly large errata. You do want this. Knowing the bugs of your uC is key to everything. If a manufacturer doesn't have an errata, look for someone else. Chips have bugs, all of them. An example how not to do it, is Atmel. Altough their datasheets are not too bad (sometimes confusing, sometimes lack in detail, sometimes just damn wrong, but generally ok), they have very little erratas, if at all. And when you report to them that their chip has an undocumented bug, they just ignore you. Using a slightly larger uC than necessary will also shorten software development time, as it allows you to "waste" resources by taking shortcuts in software. Ie i would rather go for a 32bit uC for a hobby project with lots of internal Flash and RAM than a tinsy 16bit, so i dont have to deal with limited memory. Also, if gcc or a gcc derivative supports the uC this is a _BIG_ plus. gcc might not be the best compiler out there, but it beats the heck out of most of the comercial ones. Not to mention that some of those tend to miscompile your code in mysterious ways, if you switch from one license to another (as i have recently experienced with IAR). That said, i wouldnt fixate myself on one or the other uC family at all. Once you have seen one of them, you have seen all of them. These days, the uC work all in quite similar ways. Mostly RISC or RISC-like architectures, neatly hidden behind a compiler. What you usally have to deal with are the peripherals, which tend to have only a handfull ways how they can be done (I2C, SPI, ADCs etc aren't complex enough to varant tottaly different interfaces). Maybe you have to deal with th
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 05/25/2013 03:08 PM, Jason Rabel wrote: My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted to do aren't complicated or require special busses. It is things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, or keep it simple with just one PIC. ;) Sounds like an 8-bit PIC or AVR would do for you (more detail needed to be sure). But it may or may not make your project simple. Using a microcontroller will, to some extent, convert the project from a hardware to a software project. After one experience writing a assembler function for an 8-bit PIC, I decided I liked the AVR instruction set better. The AVR data sheets are over 400 pages, so there is a lot of capability or a lot to learn depending on how you look at it. Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But say after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 embedded system starts to add up. It's never just the chip. However, there are a lot of little boards with the processor chip on them. Some are down in the $10 to $20 range. Look through Olimex (available from Mouser) and Sparkfun. I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first and what I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many different options existed (and at so many different price points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino and TI Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. It can be quite a task selecting the right microcontroller. Each chip in a series has the same basic processing core. Then they add memory: RAM, Flash for program, and EEPROM in varying amounts, then on chip peripherals: UARTs, counter/timers, SPI interfaces, ADCs, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that they usually do not have enough pins to use all the peripherals at the same time. Each pin may have two or three alternative functions, one of which must be selected by software at startup. Once you select a chip with the peripherals you want, check to be sure all the right data lines come out to separate pins. I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new challenge and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long time. I have only worked on a few AVR projects (two using Arduino boards). They are fun to work with if you like working close to the hardware. I hope we are not discouraging you at all. Just pick something and get started. Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write code in PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages I've used in the past are now probably considered archaic or defunct. ;) Microcontroller development tends to be in C/C++. You may occasionally find a use for assembler. The Arduino development environment uses C/C++ code. I do not like the environment all that much, though. It sets up a lot things in the background to make development easy for beginners. That makes some tasks, such as using timers, more difficult. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have been most helpful! Jason ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Even with graphics it works fine (I think it works better) headless using X or VNC Sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2013, at 17:05, mike cook wrote: > > Le 25 mai 2013 à 22:53, Jim Lux a écrit : > >> On 5/25/13 10:55 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: >>> >>> >>> 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 >> and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. > > If you don't need graphics it runs fine headless using putty to ssh into. > >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
>> 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 > and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. It's got an ethernet. You can ssh in to it from your PC. "Headless" is the buzzword. It may be easier to get started if you plug in a display and keyboard. http://www.penguintutor.com/linux/raspberrypi-headless -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
For the original Arduino Uno the $30 cost may be true, but there are lots of other options in the Arduino family. The Pro Mini (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/3) is only $10, being that it uses an external serial to USB adapter (such as the https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9718). The $18 cost of the adapter cable is spread across all one's projects, reducing the average. Obviously this would not be the case for any project requiring a dedicated Arduino to PC connection. The Pro Mini would also work with a MAX232 chip and an RS-232 serial port, if that's what you have. Bare DIP chips with the Arduino bootloader can be had for $5 or less for those who want to build from scratch. Even cheaper are the raw Atmel ATMEGA328 chips, usable with the Arduino environment once flashed with the proper bootloader. Not hard to do if you have the low-cost AVR programmer from Pololu (http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1300). Bob LaJeunesse From: Chris Albertson To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sat, May 25, 2013 4:15:33 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project? I... And as you say, you need to spend $30 per project. ... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Le 25 mai 2013 à 22:53, Jim Lux a écrit : > On 5/25/13 10:55 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: >> >> >> 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 >> > and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. > If you don't need graphics it runs fine headless using putty to ssh into. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
>*Jim Lux* >S*at May 25 16:53:50 EDT 2013* >>* 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40***>and >>requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. A $9 USB to 3.3V serial adapter connects to the serial console unless you prefer ssh or VNC. Likewise the Beaglebone. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 5/25/13 10:55 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 and requires a HDMI or DVI monitor.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
Hi As I've mentioned before, the ARM parts are getting to be pretty pervasive. The toolchains are quite good. The peripherals are extensive and they seem to work well. I have a preference for the Freescale versions, but there are a *lot* of people out there making them. They similarities between them are greater in most cases than the differences. You can get a part with 1MB of flash, 128KB of ram, 6 UARTS, 4 16 bit A/D's, 10/100 Ethernet, USB, and a bunch of other stuff for less than $10. Drop this and that, go to half the flash, and yup, the price is 1/2. Comes with a free toolchain and two very capable free versions of RTOS. Why harp so much on toolchain stuff? Well, some of these outfits seem to think that $1,000 or $10,000 is a reasonable thing to pay for a single seat license of a full featured tool suite. The same is true in the RTOS world once you get past the "training wheels" versions. Not everything does well running under Linux. I would much rather have a proper RTOS for most embedded tasks. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 4:09 PM, "Charles P. Steinmetz" wrote: > On another thread, Bob wrote: > >> If the objective is to complete a very simple, low powered project and be >> done with it, go with the Arduino. If the objective is to learn an empire, >> be very careful about which empire you pick. The ARM boys are quickly >> gobbling up a lot of territory that once was populated by a number of >> competing CPU's. Learning this stuff, and getting good at it is a >> significant investment of time. > > I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to hijack the first one, which > I'm hoping will continue to provide useful information about the broad > continuum of available devices, from the "easy enough for a child to assemble > and program" to the "need to learn machine language." > > My question here is more pointed: If one is going to learn a new system today > for timing and other measurement/control projects, which "empire" is likely > the best one to choose? > > Of course, much depends on "what do you want to do with it?" So, perhaps, > the ultimate answer will be several families, each for a class of > applications. But on the other hand, some families may have a range of > models that fulfill a wide range of applications. Also, my personal approach > does not require squeezing each project into the most minimal hardware > possible -- as long as the added expense isn't huge, I'm fine with using more > resources than necessary for smaller tasks if it means my investment in > learning the system (and in programming tools) is leveraged more broadly. > Also, my personal needs generally do not run to battery or other low-power > systems, so low power drain is not of great importance to me. > > Some of the more systemic (less application-oriented) factors would be, which > system is more versatile? Which has the most useful PC cards (or development > kits) available that do not require the user to start with a bare chip? > Which is likely to be around and supported longer? Which is easier to > program? For which is one likely to find more programs to study and pirate, > more libraries, etc.? Which is easier to outfit with removable memory (USB > drives, memory cards, etc.)? Which has better and faster ADCs and DACs? I'm > sure there are lots of other factors worth considering, as well. > > There may be good resources already available that address these issues. If > so, pointers would be appreciated. > > Any books people recommend to get a feel for applying and programming these > devices? > > Much appreciated, > > Charles > > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Shera code
Thank you for these additional informations, Bert ! regards Arnold Am 25.05.2013 21:58, schrieb ewkeh...@aol.com: > Questions have come up on the recent release of the Shera code. All > software commands with the exception of Auto N get lost in case of power > failure. > Auto N is stored in EEPROM. After power fail Dip switches take over. Alpha > filter can be activated with software commands or switch #5. #5 can be DAC > Hold or Alpha present compiled code is Alpha. An open switch on #5 is > Alpha on. In manual or auto N Alpha is first engaged in filter 4 position. If > > auto N is enabled and there is a power fail and #5 is open code will run up > to the value selected by the Dip switches and once it reaches 4 enables > Alpha filter. Also some status commands have been added listed below > Bert Kehren > > > ;Status bits (RS232): > ; bits > ; 0-7 N value as always > ;+10 glitch detected > ;+20 alpha filter actually used > ;+50 alpha filter enabled > ;+100"unlock" LED on > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi If you are going to code on a cheap PIC (the PIC16 series) you will likely need to learn PIC assembler. All my coding on those parts was in assembly language. They are old enough / slow enough / small RAM enough that things like C (or the other high level languages you listed) really don't do well on them. A PIC might cost you $1.31. The pc board it goes on will likely cost you $10 in quantity. The regulators and clock source might cost you $2. Throw in $3 for resistors, capacitors, and connectors. If you go for a one up PC board, figure $50 or so. All of that is before you do anything related to your project. That will likely add cost for a power supply, an enclosure, and often a display. It is not at all unusual for your total outlay for even a simple project to hit $100. In that case the micro is 1% of the total cost. A very fancy, factor of 100 better micro than a basic PIC is *maybe* $6 these days. Depending on how you define and measure better, the answer could be $3. There really is no way to use a PIC without something around it. The chip can't just float in mid air. You will always have the "stuff" that goes around it. It's never really a choice between a single IC and an entire assembly. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Jason Rabel wrote: > My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. > > First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted to do > aren't complicated or require special busses. It is > things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, or keep > it simple with just one PIC. ;) > > Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But say > after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 > embedded system starts to add up. > > I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first and what > I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm > really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many > different options existed (and at so many different price > points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino and TI > Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. > > I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new challenge > and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long > time. > > Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write code in > PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and > am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages I've > used in the past are now probably considered archaic or > defunct. ;) > > Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have been > most helpful! > > Jason > >> How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the >> AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others but >> if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not >> able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected >> something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can >> list pros and cons. > >> You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. >> Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are >> willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do >> you have? > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
If you have enough software development experience then maybe you don't need the Arduino. It is best if you have none. And as you say, you need to spend $30 per project. But you might still consider some kind of flash based chip. These can download new revisions of your software nearly instantly. If yu are writing code the ability to quickly make an edit and re-test speeds up the process. If you have to move a chip from you project to a programmer board, re-burn the ROM then move the chip back. It will take "forever". THat is what people used to do. But if the chip has a boot loader and FLASH then you have a faster development cycle. Also if you even publish the design others will not need a programmer The chip hardly matters. It's the development environment that matters. Flash-based boot loaders make for easy development and unless you are building 100,000 units the extra $1 they add to the chip is not worth worrying about On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Jason Rabel wrote: > My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. > > First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted to do > aren't complicated or require special busses. It is > things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, or keep > it simple with just one PIC. ;) > > Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But say > after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 > embedded system starts to add up. > > I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first and what > I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm > really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many > different options existed (and at so many different price > points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino and TI > Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. > > I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new challenge > and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long > time. > > Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write code in > PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and > am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages I've > used in the past are now probably considered archaic or > defunct. ;) > > Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have been > most helpful! > > Jason > >> How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the >> AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others but >> if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not >> able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected >> something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can >> list pros and cons. > >> You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. >> Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are >> willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do >> you have? > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Follow-up question re: microcontroller families
On another thread, Bob wrote: If the objective is to complete a very simple, low powered project and be done with it, go with the Arduino. If the objective is to learn an empire, be very careful about which empire you pick. The ARM boys are quickly gobbling up a lot of territory that once was populated by a number of competing CPU's. Learning this stuff, and getting good at it is a significant investment of time. I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to hijack the first one, which I'm hoping will continue to provide useful information about the broad continuum of available devices, from the "easy enough for a child to assemble and program" to the "need to learn machine language." My question here is more pointed: If one is going to learn a new system today for timing and other measurement/control projects, which "empire" is likely the best one to choose? Of course, much depends on "what do you want to do with it?" So, perhaps, the ultimate answer will be several families, each for a class of applications. But on the other hand, some families may have a range of models that fulfill a wide range of applications. Also, my personal approach does not require squeezing each project into the most minimal hardware possible -- as long as the added expense isn't huge, I'm fine with using more resources than necessary for smaller tasks if it means my investment in learning the system (and in programming tools) is leveraged more broadly. Also, my personal needs generally do not run to battery or other low-power systems, so low power drain is not of great importance to me. Some of the more systemic (less application-oriented) factors would be, which system is more versatile? Which has the most useful PC cards (or development kits) available that do not require the user to start with a bare chip? Which is likely to be around and supported longer? Which is easier to program? For which is one likely to find more programs to study and pirate, more libraries, etc.? Which is easier to outfit with removable memory (USB drives, memory cards, etc.)? Which has better and faster ADCs and DACs? I'm sure there are lots of other factors worth considering, as well. There may be good resources already available that address these issues. If so, pointers would be appreciated. Any books people recommend to get a feel for applying and programming these devices? Much appreciated, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Shera code
Questions have come up on the recent release of the Shera code. All software commands with the exception of Auto N get lost in case of power failure. Auto N is stored in EEPROM. After power fail Dip switches take over. Alpha filter can be activated with software commands or switch #5. #5 can be DAC Hold or Alpha present compiled code is Alpha. An open switch on #5 is Alpha on. In manual or auto N Alpha is first engaged in filter 4 position. If auto N is enabled and there is a power fail and #5 is open code will run up to the value selected by the Dip switches and once it reaches 4 enables Alpha filter. Also some status commands have been added listed below Bert Kehren ;Status bits (RS232): ; bits ; 0-7 N value as always ;+10 glitch detected ;+20 alpha filter actually used ;+50 alpha filter enabled ;+100"unlock" LED on ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Anyone have an Endrun Praecis (or similar) time server?
I have an older Endrun Technologies Praecis Gntp (GPS) time server. Basically it's a small SBC coupled together with a special board made by Endrun (I think really it's just their Praecis Ce Time & Frequency Engine) and a Trimble GPS module. It ran fine for years, then one day it stopped responding. After fiddling with it thinking possibly it was a bad power supply or something I've ruled out most issues. The one thing I've noticed is the CPU runs HOT. My guess is it's overheating and locking up. When I SSH in, the CPU load is always 1 or higher. I tried killing off all the processes but the CPU load still is pegged, typically sits around 1.30. Unfortunately there isn't the full set of usual linux programs and only a minimal amount of info from /proc. For now I have the case off and a little fan on the CPU to keep it from locking up, but obviously that isn't a long-term solution. I don't think the MB is bad, there is nothing obviously damaged on the PCB and the voltages are okay. I thought maybe a bad memory chip, but why would that cause a high CPU load? I've tried booting from the stock image, but it still loads whatever custom files have been created. I haven't found a way to reset it completely back to stock. I talked to the endrun tech support and unfortunately this system is so old it's not even supported anymore. I even tried asking for the NTP driver source code so I could roll my own OS with NTP, but that was a no go. I think I'm going to pull the DOM chip and hook up a notebook HD since it has a header for one and see how the board runs with a more modern Linux. Last resort I think it's possible to switch the Endrun timing module into a pseudo-trimble mode, which NTP has built-in support for and use it that way. Does anyone else have one of these, and if so can you see what your CPU load is? Considering what little this does I would think it would sit around 0.01 or so... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FLUKE PM6680B Counter Time View software for the PC
> Can anyone point me to a source for the subject software ? Stan, The source code is not available as far as I know. The binary is shipped if you order that option with your counter from Fluke or Pendulum. It's key'ed so it can't be shared or re-sold. It's a reasonable tool, works with native USB, but I'd suggest using TimeLab over serial or GPIB instead give the 1.#INF cost and feature ratio. /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
My reasoning for using a PIC (or similar) is mostly two factors. First, simplicity... The few things I have in my head that I've wanted to do aren't complicated or require special busses. It is things that you could *probably* do with a whole pile of logic chips, or keep it simple with just one PIC. ;) Second, cost... Spending $30-$40 for a one time project is fine. But say after 10 or so, the cost savings of a $2 chip vs $30 embedded system starts to add up. I agree with you that I need to figure out the project details first and what I'm trying to integrate with and work backwards. I'm really glad people are giving me feedback though I didn't know so many different options existed (and at so many different price points). If you don't ask, you will never learn. ;) Both the Arduino and TI Launchpad offerings look very intriguing. I'm on no deadline, so time is not an issue. I just wanted a new challenge and this is something I've wanted to dive into for a long time. Learning a programming language is not an issue. While I mostly write code in PHP, Perl, and shell scripts these days, I used to and am still somewhat familiar with C/C++. Most other programming languages I've used in the past are now probably considered archaic or defunct. ;) Looks like I have a lot of reading to do now. Everyone's responses have been most helpful! Jason > How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the > AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others but > if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not > able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected > something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can > list pros and cons. > You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. > Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are > willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do > you have? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
How did you decide to use a PIC and not one of the others such as the AVR MSP or whatever? I don't want to argue for any of the others but if you can't list 5 or 6 good reasons to use a PIC and you are not able to say why the oters cn't work for you then you've just selected something at random without thinking. SO as a check, see if you can list pros and cons. NONE of these chips are expensive. You can get them for under $2. But what you need is the development system. Here are some things to look at: 1) Arduino: If you are new to programming micro processors and wht to get started building things quickly and can afford to spend $30 this is the best option. It is very easy to use. It has a huge amount of suport and books and example code and it works with Windows, Linux and Mac OS X. 2) If cost is an issue look at TI's "launchpad". They are noow $10 (shipping included) For that you get two chips the programmer board. You can use the board in your projects (it is credit card sized) or pull off the programmed ship and use that. The MSP chip uses "micro watts" and can run for years on a battery. 3) the "Pi" is almost PC-like and very easy to use. Costs about $40 4) PICs are good too. but they are the oldest technology and limey have a steeper learning curve. You will need some kind of programmer and software but the parts are inexpensive. You have to decide what you are going to USE the device for first. Some are bets for different purposes. And also how much time you are willing to invest in learning. How much programming experience do you have? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jason Rabel wrote: > I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC chip for some > smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good (and > cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or website)? I have a > fairly recent willem eprom programmer that I'm hoping I > can use. > > I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first project I > would like to have it connected to a serial port on one of > my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current time, or NTP/GPS info) > and output that on a little LED display. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap...
Try replacing the gigabit switch with a 100BaseT switch. Interrupt coalescence is sometimes used in gigabit interfaces. It's like the "buffering problem" I think they do this because with the 10X faster network the computer just can't handle an interrupt per packet.You have to try it because the problem is not 100% universal. > Since I'm still testing bits all four of my clocks are on the same > gigabit switch so I don't expect to see simultaneous negative and positive > offsets. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap...
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 05:06:57PM +, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: > Flightradar24 is using beagle bones in their ADS-B/mode-s > system and will be incorporating MLAT soon. I suspect they work > well in timing applications. > That said, the Allwinner they sell on Sparkfun will probably be > my next SBC. Though not listed on the wiki, they have opensuse > running on it. > BTW, on some linux dists, there is a way to get around the > clock speed stepping. It may not be universal, but selecting > "performance" works on opensuse for Arm. The speed stepping (and similar performance control mechanisms) are managed by so called 'governors' which are part of the kernel, and thus do not really depend on the distro. they can be loaded (as modules) or compiled into the kernel and they can be controlled via userspace tools or via the sysfs entries. HTH, Herbert > -Original Message- > From: Paul > Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 12:47:38 > To: > Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: [time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap... > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:43 AM, David J Taylor wrote: >> Paul, >> Just what devices were you hot-plugging to produce this >> problem? One with an initial current surge outside the USB >> spec I could understand. > I was plugging in a USB to RS232 adapter. If you read the > various bits you'll find about the USB on Rev.B boards > you'll see all the work-arounds suggested here as well as an > implication that Raspberry intends to fix the problem in a > later release. >> NTP performance on the three Raspberry Pi cards here can be of >> the same order as FreeBSD running on an Intel Atom PC: > Yes, I've looked at your stats. As I said earlier you put me > onto the Pi and the Sure boards. The offsets on the Pi are > fine. I just don't like the "weak" network performance which > you can see in the ntpq output for the Pi. Since I'm still > testing bits all four of my clocks are on the same gigabit > switch so I don't expect to see simultaneous negative and > positive offsets. The Laureline is jittery too but at least it > always presents the same offset "polarity". I'll see how the > Beaglebones do, check out the next rev. of the Laureline and > then dither some more. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap...
Flightradar24 is using beagle bones in their ADS-B/mode-s system and will be incorporating MLAT soon. I suspect they work well in timing applications. That said, the Allwinner they sell on Sparkfun will probably be my next SBC. Though not listed on the wiki, they have opensuse running on it. BTW, on some linux dists, there is a way to get around the clock speed stepping. It may not be universal, but selecting "performance" works on opensuse for Arm. -Original Message- From: Paul Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 12:47:38 To: Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap... On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:43 AM, David J Taylor wrote: > Paul, > > Just what devices were you hot-plugging to produce this problem? One with > an initial current surge outside the USB spec I could understand. > I was plugging in a USB to RS232 adapter. If you read the various bits you'll find about the USB on Rev.B boards you'll see all the work-arounds suggested here as well as an implication that Raspberry intends to fix the problem in a later release. > NTP performance on the three Raspberry Pi cards here can be of the same > order as FreeBSD running on an Intel Atom PC: > Yes, I've looked at your stats. As I said earlier you put me onto the Pi and the Sure boards. The offsets on the Pi are fine. I just don't like the "weak" network performance which you can see in the ntpq output for the Pi. Since I'm still testing bits all four of my clocks are on the same gigabit switch so I don't expect to see simultaneous negative and positive offsets. The Laureline is jittery too but at least it always presents the same offset "polarity". I'll see how the Beaglebones do, check out the next rev. of the Laureline and then dither some more. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FLUKE PM6680B Counter Time View software for the PC
Hello A.B., Actually TimeLab is collecting data right now and I am quite happy with it. I will be even happier when the PM6680B arrives on Tuesday and TimeLab can drive it directly without the "talk only" function I am currently using. The FLUKE TimeView is only an alternative, whose capabilities I hope to experience. I am currently using a HP5384A in talk only mode (HPIB address 31) with TimeLab to look at some OCXOs. A T'Bolt GPS/DO provides the 10 MHz reference. Now I better understand why there is a rubber gasket under the adjustment screw cover on the hermetically sealed cans of the OCXO. I can see the barometric pressure changes on frequency using TimeLab, at E-10 levels. Maybe the supposed drift due to the atmospheric pressure is due to the propagation of the GPS signals that can effect the 10MHz reference ?? May have to go back to a Rb reference to verify. It is also interesting to see how "aging drift" improves with time under power. I had been holding out for a HP 53132A counter but I am a frugal Yankee and I settled on the PM6680B for about 25% of the cost of a HP 53132A. Waiting for FedEx... Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr On 5/25/2013 8:14 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote: Why not TimeLab? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote: Hello The Net: Can anyone point me to a source for the subject software ? Thanks Stan, W1LE Cape Cod ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] RPi NTP was Net4501's cheap...
On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:43 AM, David J Taylor wrote: > Paul, > > Just what devices were you hot-plugging to produce this problem? One with > an initial current surge outside the USB spec I could understand. > I was plugging in a USB to RS232 adapter. If you read the various bits you'll find about the USB on Rev.B boards you'll see all the work-arounds suggested here as well as an implication that Raspberry intends to fix the problem in a later release. > NTP performance on the three Raspberry Pi cards here can be of the same > order as FreeBSD running on an Intel Atom PC: > Yes, I've looked at your stats. As I said earlier you put me onto the Pi and the Sure boards. The offsets on the Pi are fine. I just don't like the "weak" network performance which you can see in the ntpq output for the Pi. Since I'm still testing bits all four of my clocks are on the same gigabit switch so I don't expect to see simultaneous negative and positive offsets. The Laureline is jittery too but at least it always presents the same offset "polarity". I'll see how the Beaglebones do, check out the next rev. of the Laureline and then dither some more. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FLUKE PM6680B Counter Time View software for the PC
Timelab works nicely with my Fluke PM6690, either with Prologix GPIB-USB adapter or straight USB. Jerry K1JOS -Original Message- From: Azelio Boriani [mailto:azelio.bori...@screen.it] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 08:14 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FLUKE PM6680B Counter Time View software for the PC Why not TimeLab? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote: > Hello The Net: > > Can anyone point me to a source for the subject software ? > > Thanks Stan, W1LE Cape Cod > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
On 5/25/13 7:22 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi PIC's have been around for a *long* time. The PIC16's came early on and were followed by the PIC18's. Both are a bit dated at this point. The PIC24's and dsPIC33's are actually very similar parts. The PIC33's form a third family pretty much on their own. A modern version of the Microchip programmer will flash any of the parts. I have never seen a cheap eprom programmer that will program a PIC. The Microchip programmers are dirt cheap, so that's not a real problem. I'd strongly recommend getting one of the starter kits for the dsPIC33 and play with it for a while. It should come with a cpu, a programmer, and a ton of information. The toolchain is pretty simple to use and it's free. - All that said, the Arduino empire is pretty hard to beat when it comes to mashing together a simple little light blinker. The key issue is being able to use cheap China assembled boards off of the auction sites. Time wise, and even cost wise it's better than doing layouts and soldering up stuff. Another option are the demo boards that the semiconductor companies flog off for next to nothing. The Freescale Freedom board ($12) is one example out of hundreds. The project cost is *never* about the CPU, it's always about all the other stuff around it. If the objective is to complete a very simple, low powered project and be done with it, go with the Arduino. If the objective is to learn an empire, be very careful about which empire you pick. The ARM boys are quickly gobbling up a lot of territory that once was populated by a number of competing CPU's. Learning this stuff, and getting good at it is a significant investment of time. If you're interested in ARM (in the long run), and find the arduino ecosystem interesting :there are enormous numbers of add on "shields" for Arduino, and lots of example code of varying quality around. take a look at the Teensy3 from PJRC.. $19, it's a Freescale Kinetis microcontroller with ARM, a fair amount of RAM and flash, but can use either the Arduino IDE (teensyduino.. has all the libraries, in source, to support the plethora of onchip peripherals in the Kinetis) or native tools for the ARM. One Arduino peripheral that's not readily available, and would be of interest to time-nuts, is a high resolution DAC. the Arduino (and teensy, for that matter) have the usual PWM. You can get a I2C interface MCP4725 12-bitDAC from adafruit on a little daughter card (with bypass caps, etc.), but I've not found something like a low noise 16bit DAC. A decent DAC and the teensy, and I think you could do a very nice Disciplined XO.. the Kinetis has a pretty complete set of counters/timers/what-have-you that you can interconnect by setting bits in the hundreds of control registers, once you figure out how (yep, you'll love that 1600 page manual) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi I started out with the PIC16's as well, I did projects using a number of them, and moved to the PIC18's long ago. If you were starting out today - which family would you start with? Bob On May 25, 2013, at 10:03 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote: > I started with just the PIC datasheet to learn about the hardware > architecture and the MPASM to write (in assembler) the first try at a > PIC16C84 (at that time the PIC16F84 was not yet available). There are > plenty of sites about PICs and relative projects. The Shera controller > is based on PICs. > > On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Jason Rabel > wrote: >> I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC chip for >> some smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good (and >> cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or website)? I have a >> fairly recent willem eprom programmer that I'm hoping I >> can use. >> >> I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first project I >> would like to have it connected to a serial port on one of >> my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current time, or NTP/GPS info) >> and output that on a little LED display. >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
I started with just the PIC datasheet to learn about the hardware architecture and the MPASM to write (in assembler) the first try at a PIC16C84 (at that time the PIC16F84 was not yet available). There are plenty of sites about PICs and relative projects. The Shera controller is based on PICs. On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Jason Rabel wrote: > I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC chip for some > smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good (and > cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or website)? I have a > fairly recent willem eprom programmer that I'm hoping I > can use. > > I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first project I > would like to have it connected to a serial port on one of > my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current time, or NTP/GPS info) > and output that on a little LED display. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
Hi PIC's have been around for a *long* time. The PIC16's came early on and were followed by the PIC18's. Both are a bit dated at this point. The PIC24's and dsPIC33's are actually very similar parts. The PIC33's form a third family pretty much on their own. A modern version of the Microchip programmer will flash any of the parts. I have never seen a cheap eprom programmer that will program a PIC. The Microchip programmers are dirt cheap, so that's not a real problem. I'd strongly recommend getting one of the starter kits for the dsPIC33 and play with it for a while. It should come with a cpu, a programmer, and a ton of information. The toolchain is pretty simple to use and it's free. - All that said, the Arduino empire is pretty hard to beat when it comes to mashing together a simple little light blinker. The key issue is being able to use cheap China assembled boards off of the auction sites. Time wise, and even cost wise it's better than doing layouts and soldering up stuff. Another option are the demo boards that the semiconductor companies flog off for next to nothing. The Freescale Freedom board ($12) is one example out of hundreds. The project cost is *never* about the CPU, it's always about all the other stuff around it. If the objective is to complete a very simple, low powered project and be done with it, go with the Arduino. If the objective is to learn an empire, be very careful about which empire you pick. The ARM boys are quickly gobbling up a lot of territory that once was populated by a number of competing CPU's. Learning this stuff, and getting good at it is a significant investment of time. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 9:46 AM, Jason Rabel wrote: > I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC chip for some > smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good (and > cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or website)? I have a > fairly recent willem eprom programmer that I'm hoping I > can use. > > I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first project I > would like to have it connected to a serial port on one of > my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current time, or NTP/GPS info) > and output that on a little LED display. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FLUKE PM6680B Counter Time View software for the PC
Why not TimeLab? On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote: > Hello The Net: > > Can anyone point me to a source for the subject software ? > > Thanks Stan, W1LE Cape Cod > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Good (cheap) PIC chip choice for project?
I've decided I finally want to tackle learning how to use a PIC chip for some smaller projects. Can someone recommend me a good (and cheap) PIC, and possible some literature (be it a book or website)? I have a fairly recent willem eprom programmer that I'm hoping I can use. I don't know what all the features PICs have, but for my first project I would like to have it connected to a serial port on one of my Soekris' where it can grab info (i.e. the current time, or NTP/GPS info) and output that on a little LED display. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 9390 GPS RX
Hi The turn point temperature on the crystal is only a starting point. In a circuit like you have, the actual operating temperature is adjusted to compensate for the temperature coefficient of the rest of the circuit. WIth a heated crystal OCXO, that can be a 10C offset. The temperature you are concerned with is the temperature of the blank. If you can see the crystal can, you are loosing energy through it. That could put it's temperature below the blank temperature. The only way to set it up properly is to do a temperature run. Take it down to 0C and come up to 50C in 10C steps. Adjust the oven temperature for least frequency change. Now, does any of this really matter? Probably not. The crystal is in a VCXO that is locked to something else. If you are at 60 C on an 80C crystal, you are within < 5 ppm of the turn. The VCXO should have a wider range than that. Once the circuit locks up, the oven matters very little…. Bob On May 25, 2013, at 2:43 AM, "Mark C. Stephens" wrote: > Hey Ed, Just knocked up a temperature sensor with a Dallas single wire > temperature sensor thingy, a pic and an LCD display. > So, I will know for sure I am hitting the xtal turning point. > I figured you had been right about everything so perhaps my temperature gun > was out. > It's probably a handy bit of kit to have, because no doubt I have a couple of > ovens here that are playing up ad some sort of accurate temperature > measurement and logging would be a handy bit of kit to have. > It spits out the time and temperature reading once per second via a serial > interface as well as displays in on the LCD.. > I had already sort of written the code 10 years ago, just hadn't gotten > around to finishing the hardware. :) > A few changes here and there for the pic pin out and it worked! > Just going through the warm-up cycle now, I expect an hour should do it. > Seems to be heating that crystal very slowly. > I think there still may be a problem around that wee transistor that limits > the current to the heater transistor. > Or perhaps by putting the right value 6K81 resistor and a new op-amp changed > the dynamics and I may need to revisit R8. > I have checked the PSU, its 17.3v spot on. > I checked the temperature after an hour and it was only 58 degrees ): > I stuck a resistance box across R8 and adjusted until I got ~79 on my > temperature meter. > The resistance is 680R which seems very low to me, but not outside the > circuit specifications. > > But appear to have dug myself into a hole. > I disconnected the EFC as per the manual and hooked up a 10K 'Pot' across the > 17.3v supply and the wiper to the crystal boards E9 point (EFC) > At zero volts the 10 MHz is very high at around 1500 and at 17.3 volts it > is around 1650. > So, there is either a problem, with the crystal or the surrounding circuit. > > Looking at the circuit C11 and C12 are selectable components. > C11 selects the centre frequency and C12 selects the adjust range. > The range in the circuit is specified as 4.7 to 100 pf, but my schematic is a > bit blurry so it could be 4.7pf to 180pf. > So I went from 10pf -> 100pf for C11. > At 100 Pf the 10Mhz is closest at ~1300 (with 0v EFC) > There is no way I will hit 10Mhz by adjusting C11. > > I guess my next step is to pull the board out again and check components, > especially C3/C4/C5. > > No hope of lock when the EFC can't pull the Xtal into the correct frequency > is there. > > I am wondering if we getting off subject for the list? > > > marki > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Ed Palmer > Sent: Friday, 24 May 2013 4:03 PM > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 9390 GPS RX > > Hold on mate! You're not quite done yet. :) > > You said you tweaked the cap to get the Control Voltage to 8 volts and saw > the proper frequency. You should be able to move the cap, and therefore the > control voltage, anywhere in the 2 to 12 volt range and still see the proper > frequency. Does that work? > > The next area is the Rb lamp itself. What's the voltage on pin 7 (Rb Lamp)? > If it's much below 7V you could have trouble with the unit dropping out of > lock. While you've got the unit on the bench, you should also check the > temperature of the lamp since it's easy to do. > Don't try to measure it while it's powered. Open up the access port to the > lamp, power down, and measure the temperature. The tolerance on the > temperature is not stated, but since it's running at 115C, too hot will burn > out the poor transistor that's being used as a heater while too cold will > give a weak light that could cause locking problems. > > Finally, power the unit on from cold and make sure that the frequency sweep > still works properly and after a few minutes the sweep stops, the crystal > control voltage stabilizes, the frequency looks good, and pin 5 (Resonance > Lock
Re: [time-nuts] NTP on RaspberryPi
Wow I thought my offset/jitter specs were good! Yours are outstanding. I am using a HP thinclient (T150) with a 60Gb laptop drive shoehorned into it, just 10W to power it ;) remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter == oGPS_NMEA(0) .GPS.0 l5 16 3770.000 0.002 0.002 -marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Paul Sent: Saturday, 25 May 2013 1:52 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP on RaspberryPi On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:14 PM > From: Hal Murray >> Besides I got them to run NTP and they're too jittery for my taste. > > How good/bad were they? The view from the RPi*: server (local remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter 127.0.0.1 o127.127.22.0.PPS.0 l-8 3770.000 -0.001 0.003 192.168.0.192 *192.168.0.2 .PPS.1 u-8 3770.460 -0.003 0.037 192.168.0.192 +192.168.0.210 .GPS.1 u78 3770.920 -0.019 0.202 192.168.0.192 +192.168.0.244 .PPS.1 u78 3770.493 0.022 0.031 The view from a mini-itx/Atom system: server (local remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter 127.0.0.1 o127.127.22.0.PPS.0 l18 3770.000 0.000 0.002 192.168.0.244 +192.168.0.2 .PPS.1 u88 3770.085 0.004 0.002 192.168.0.244 +192.168.0.210 .GPS.1 u78 3770.544 0.001 0.216 192.168.0.244 *192.168.0.192 .PPS.1 u68 3770.485 -0.008 0.025 One odd system is enough. > What were you using for a time source? Does it have PPS support? I have a variety of PPS sources. The RPi is most often connected to a Sure dev. board. David Taylor linked to Hauke Lampe who did a kernel build with PPS drivers. *The tables look okay here but are probably trashed there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 9390 GPS RX
Hello Mr. Dent, The problem is, Vintage kit like this is virtually impossible to get down here in Australia. That's why I was tickled pink when I got my hands on it. Does the 9390-5588A have the 16.618 Mhz Vectron oscillator externaly located on one of the wire wrap boards? As days go by I have a PSU fault, A GPS receiver fault, The dates wrong and the FRK is possibly knackered and I need my workbench back. I just wonder it it's time to put everything back together and shelve this 9390 as a retirement project. With a bit of luck GPS will be replaced with something else by then ;) I have a Austron 2201a in absolute pristine condition with service manuals for its serial number no less! However, 2 Problems, I have no Antenna Down convertor and its stuck in a reboot loop: Testing RAM Testing ROM Testing something else Testing failsafe ... Can't read it all as she reboots almost the instant it written to the display. I could spend time on the Austron, It has a Rubidium in it too. But not for love nor money can I get an antenna for it. I have a saved worldwide search on ebay.com for one but I have a feeling that when one does come up it will go for megabucks. I have put word out to all the packrats I know down under and so far no luck there either. Boo hoo! mark -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Saturday, 25 May 2013 1:22 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] 9390 GPS RX I have owned a similar 9390-5588A with the FRK Rb inside for a few years now. Although the Rb is quite old, the unit locks in just 3 minutes and finds the GPS time (off by 1024 weeks, 16 sec, UTC) in four minutes and displays an initial PDOP 03. I have reset the time to the correct UTC time but after a short period it always reverts to the original time. If I recall the antenna voltage was +12vdc and I traced the line and reconnected it to +5vdc. The antenna is roof mounted and runs through a Lucent GPS ant amp/5-way splitter. I don't recall which ones it was now but I did have a problem with 2 of these old GPS receivers on the same antenna, apparently reradiating enough of a signal from the LO or whatever so that it knocked the other receiver off line. My version of this vintage 9390 has an added switch on the front to choose where it gets the 1PPS signal to compare and it has both an a.c. and a d.c. supply. From what I have seen almost no 2 of these units were exactly the same so it is hard to find an exact manual and I don't have one at all so it made setting this unit up kind of difficult. The circuit boards directly in front of the FRK use wire-wrap connector so they could customized these units for each end-user. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
