Re: [time-nuts] Carrier meter

[WB6BNQ]

AH-HA,

thank you Bob.  Now it makes some sense !

BillWB6BNQ


Bob Camp wrote:

> HI
>
> He's answering a question from about a day ago on the R-390 list.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 13, 2013, at 7:59 PM, WB6BNQ  wrote:
>
> > Perry,
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, who the hell are you talking to and more importantly 
> > what
> > are you talking about ? ? ? ?
> >
> > BillWB6BNQ
> >
> >
> > Perry Sandeen wrote:
> >
> >> List,
> >>
> >> Wrote:  I
> >> have noticed that my Carrier meter doesn't consistently go to Zero. The 
> >> Meter
> >> itself seems fine.
> >>
> >> Your questions are answered in the Y2KR3
> >> manual.  See Chapter 11.
> >>
> >> While all on the list are willing to help, much
> >> angst and lost time can be avoided by perusing chapters 9 and onward.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Perrier
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >> ___
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] VE2ZAZ controller

[Bob Stewart]

Perry,

Could you give me some context for your post?  Is this related to my post about 
building a GPSDO, or is this something else?  It looks like Bert did something 
specifically for the 3586.  That is not what I was posting about.

Bob




- Original Message -
> From: Perry Sandeen 
> To: "time-nuts@febo.com" 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 11:40 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] VE2ZAZ controller
> 
> 
> 
> List,
>  
> The VE2ZAZ is a very clever design, but its design
> limits its usefulness to many of us.
>  
> First, one has to be able to program a
> microprocessor.  This is a non-starter
> for many of us.
>  
> Secondly you have to have a different program
> depending on which 3586 one has or sub-set thereof.  If you have more than 
> one 
> working 3586 as I
> do, things can be complicated quickly.  IIRC there are six possible 
> frequencies.  
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[time-nuts] HP and other equipment failure

[Perry Sandeen]

All,  
 
There has been an on and off discussion of
equipment failure so I’d thought I’d add my experience.
 
First I’ve been repairing HP equipment since 1976
before many of you were born.
 
I now have over 16 pieces of HP test equipment and
several units now need repair.
 
In my experience, the vast amount of failures are
electrolytic caps with some aggravated by heat.
 
Someone floated the notion of not repairing HP
equipment but cannibalizing it for parts.
 
Please bear with me on my long story.
 
After WWII there were all sorts of surplus stores
selling everything in the mid-fifties.  I
even remember an add in popular Mechanics magazine for a Norden bombsite for
$29.95.  Much of my allowance was spent
on mysterious wonders like a IFF receiver.  Hams reveled in B-29 prop pitch 
motors for rotating beam antennas.  Since it was 28 volt stuff it was far, far
cheaper than commercial equivalents.
 
Then it all gradually disappeared.  Now people want $75 or more for a cruddy
ARC-5 receiver.
 
 Now this is
how it applies to us today.
 
If one peruses the Ebay adds for HP test equipment
one frequently sees a statement like *removed from a place that went out of
business* or something similar.
 
True, the equipment we are buying is 20 years old
or older.  But it is going away never to
return.  I saw an old Ebay invoice from
12 years ago where I won a working HP 3586B for $50.  The shipping cost me 
more!  Now a non-functional unit sells for $400.
 
These prices are only going to continue to rise as
the supply continues to diminish.
 
But this equipment is repairable unlike the
questionable test equipment from China.  Doing preventative maintenance on this 
equipment is not optional if you
want it to continue working.  All electrolytic
caps should be replaced, except for tantalums.  That will be more on a case by 
case business.
 
This is equipment you can repair.  This is not very true for the newer stuff.
 
On the HP 3586B for example, there are a dozen or
so of TVA atoms.  When I do mine I expect
it will then lock below 500 KHz as it is specified.  The HP 5370B needs far 
more cooling than
provided.  I have even given thought to
adding additional resistances to the pass transistor collectors on the outside
by the heat sink.  I found on my two that
the mother board was scorched from overheating by rectifier diodes.  This will 
have to wait until after we have
moved.  I will also add EFC to the 10811 oscillator.
(Why that feature was omitted can be answered by Ric).  
 
There are two long standing truths about
electronic equipment.  One you can’t have
too much filter capacitance.  Two, you
can’t cool too much.  (Please spare me
the  liquid nitrogen or submarine battery
comments.)
 
Regards,

Perrier



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[time-nuts] VE2ZAZ controller

[Perry Sandeen]

List,
 
The VE2ZAZ is a very clever design, but its design
limits its usefulness to many of us.
 
First, one has to be able to program a
microprocessor.  This is a non-starter
for many of us.
 
Secondly you have to have a different program
depending on which 3586 one has or sub-set thereof.  If you have more than one 
working 3586 as I
do, things can be complicated quickly.  IIRC there are six possible 
frequencies.  
 
While the output frequency is very, very close, it
has offsets.  And AFAIK all DDS signals
have some jitter. 
 
If I was doing it, I’d buy the $50 board from
Fluke.1 with the 10 KHz output and use the Miller circuit to make a GPSOCXO.
the board, OCXO, and IC’s come in less than USD $100.  Also you can use it as a 
reference for
multiple instruments.
 
If I want an exact frequency out of my 3586 I’ll
use a HP 333X function generator locked to my 10 MHz standard to inject the
exact phase-locked frequency the IF requires for its model.  And all I have to 
do if I have a different IF
frequency on my other units all I have to do is just turn the knob. BTW, I paid
$200 for one of mine and $250 for the other. Both came with the 10811
oscillator.  
 
It’s nice to save money.  But the reality of life is that Time-Nuts is
an expensive electronics hobby.  If one
has to nickel and dime every project, then this isn’t a good hobby to have.
 
Regards,
 
Perrier
 



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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Richard H McCorkle]

Chis,

Over time without phase correction the analogy would be more like
zig to the right, correct to go straight, zig to the right, correct
again, and keep repeating this sequence ad infinium as the source
ages in predominantly one direction. Each time the phase shifts in
the same direction and before long you are on a different road a
full clock cycle to the right and continuing to shift in the same
direction. The total number of clocks over the period has changed
from the ideal even though the average frequency has been correct.
So over the short-term the right number of cycles occur, but over
the long term there is an increasing error from the ideal number
of clock cycles as the period increases.
  If all you need is a frequency that is stable over short periods
then the phase is of no concern. But when using a scope or TIC to
compare a device under test (DUT) to the reference to determine its
Adev over longer periods then you need the phase of the reference
to be constant over the maximum measurement period (typically 4-5
days for a 1-day Adev value) to determine the DUT long-term drift.
  By keeping track of the total accumulated count from an arbitrary
starting point (i.e. when the reference sample is taken) and adding
6800 HEX each update the reference count would represent the ideal
count after X updates if no drift had occurred. Comparing the
current count to this ideal gives the total change since the
arbitrary reference was first stored. By adding steering to keep
the actual sample count at the ideal value then over the long-term
there would be no drift as it would be corrected out. The actual
phase to GPS isn't the important factor - the change in the phase
over long periods (like a day or week) is as it represents an error
in the total number of counts over that period and a reduction in
the long-term stability.

Richard


>
> I'm with Bob in that I don't really understand this description.
>
> And what are we trying to be in phase with? the 1PPS?
> Is it possible to reproduce the actual phase of the
> clock in the GPS birds once it has been through my GPS
> and come out as 1PPS?
>
> I picture the EFC steering the car straight down the road.
> And you want to adjust not just the drift to the right but
> steer back to the center of the lane.  I think I get
> that part.  I don't get who is setting the lane
> and why I should care.
>
> Do the statistics (ADEV, etc.) show that this is an improvement?
> If I'm doing my slow zigzag down the center line or the
> right shoulder, again, do I care?
>
> Chris
> w0ep
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Bob Stewart]

Chris,

I think I've figured it out.  Here is the key phrase, I think: "The EFC 
corrects the frequency to give the proper 6800 HEX over the following samples, 
but the phase shift from the previous error during the correction period 
remains."  

Let's say that the frequency drifts off less than one cycle per second.  Let's 
further say that it is a phase angle of 30 degrees.  If we correct the 
frequency so that subsequently the frequency is spot on, the phase of our clock 
is still 30 degrees off.  Let's say that that happens 11 more times.  We are 
now a total of 360 degrees off in phase, but our frequency is exactly correct, 
and has been within our error tolerance through all 12 total error cycles.  
Without a phase correction our clock will wander around in phase, and thus in 
frequency, over the long term, though it will stay within tolerance over the 
short and medium term.  If our clock was slightly fast this cycle, then we need 
to slow it down by just that much, i.e. that phase angle, on the next timing 
cycle.  At least that's how I understand it.  I need to think on it some more.

Bob




- Original Message -
> From: Chris Howard 
> To: mccor...@ptialaska.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement 
> Cc: Bob Stewart 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw:  New to list and GPSDO questions
> 
> 
> I'm with Bob in that I don't really understand this description.
> 
> And what are we trying to be in phase with? the 1PPS?
> Is it possible to reproduce the actual phase of the
> clock in the GPS birds once it has been through my GPS
> and come out as 1PPS?
> 
> I picture the EFC steering the car straight down the road.
> And you want to adjust not just the drift to the right but
> steer back to the center of the lane.  I think I get
> that part.  I don't get who is setting the lane
> and why I should care.
> 
> Do the statistics (ADEV, etc.) show that this is an improvement?
> If I'm doing my slow zigzag down the center line or the
> right shoulder, again, do I care?
> 
> Chris
> w0ep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/13/2013 5:51 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote:
>>  Hi Bob,
>> 
>>  The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
>>  on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
>>  not compensated for. When the system is stable every 16 seconds the
>>  16-bit counter rolls over 2441 times with an extra 26624 counts (6800
>>  HEX). The previous count is subtracted from the current count, the
>>  difference from 6800 HEX is used to update the EFC to correct the
>>  frequency, and the current count is stored as the previous count for
>>  the next sample. When the current difference is not exactly 6800 HEX
>>  then a phase shift of 6.25ns has occurred over the sample period for
>>  each count of the difference from 6800 HEX. The EFC corrects the
>>  frequency to give the proper 6800 HEX over the following samples, but
>>  the phase shift from the previous error during the correction period
>>  remains.
>>    If you add a little code to provide a correction history you can
>>  add phase correction to the VE2ZAZ controller as well. Once lock is
>>  established store the sample count as a phase reference count. Add
>>  6800 HEX to the reference count every update and store the result as
>>  the next reference value. Use the difference between the current and
>>  previous samples from 6800 HEX to coarse correct the frequency as
>>  currently done, but add the difference between the current count and
>>  reference count to the EFC correction as a fine phase correction. If
>>  hold or unlock occurs disable the phase correction routine until lock
>>  is re-established. Then store a new reference and restart the phase
>>  correction process. By updating the reference every update it provides
>>  a phase history so the accumulated count error over time can be
>>  removed and the phase of the source can be stabilized.
>> 
>>  Richard
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Atilla,
>>> 
>>>  Isn't the VE2ZAZ circuit functionally equivalent to your example 
> 3?  Granted, he's
>>>  not picking the 10 millionth transition and checking its phase
>>>  difference to the reference, but I've only got a 1PPS reference 
> with a
>>>  1uS or so jitter from pulse to pulse.  Bert is averaging over 16
>>>  seconds, and creating a PWM signal to drive an integrator (simulating a 
> DAC), which
>>>  will drive a Trimble 34310-T.  And like I mentioned
>>>  earlier, I just like the way Bert did it.  It has a kind of elegance
>>>  that appeals to my inner hacker.  =)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Bob - AE6RV
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  - Original Message -
  From: Attila Kinali 
  To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time 
> and frequency
  measurement 
  Cc:
  Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
>>>  snip
  [3] Describes how to use a clock
>>>   synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
>>>

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Demodulator Ckt.

[paul swed]

How big are the foldouts and what clock?
Paul
WB8TSL


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:

> Perrier,
>
> I would be glad to.
>
> About the HP clock manual, I am having a hard time with the foldouts which
> are much bigger than the scanner I have access to at work, looking at
> getting access to a bigger one.
>
> Didier
>
> Perry Sandeen  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >All,
> >
> >I have used photoshop to clean up so it is easier
> >to read and expanded a bit both of Paul Sweed’s D-PSK-R costas loop
> >circuits.  I changed the schematic to a
> >bit image and it is a TIFF file so one can take it to FedEx office or
> >similar
> >if one wants a large copy.
> >
> >I will send a copy to anyone who wants it.  Please reply off line.
> >Didier if you want to post it on your site
> >please feel free to do so.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Perrier
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> >and follow the instructions there.
>
> --
> Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other
> things.
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Re: [time-nuts] Neat little cesium box

[Tom Van Baak]

Without spilling too many more details, can you say approximately what level of 
frequency accuracy or stability you need per year? Also, to the nearest decade, 
what is "relatively cost-conscious design"?

I ask because a CSAC costs on the order of 1500. Note it runs out of the box 
(you don't need to buy from a third party in a fancy enclosure). If you don't 
need that level of long-term performance consider a high-performance TCXO.

If power is a much greater limiting factor than budget use both; fire up the 
CSAC once a day (or week, etc.) for a few minutes to correct the VCTCXO. That 
way you get both low power and high accuracy.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Gregory Muir" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:15 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Neat little cesium box


> Tom,
> 
> Thank you for your concern.  I unfortunately cannot disclose many details 
> about the proposed project only to say that the application transcends much 
> of the typical "Time-Nuts" areas of normality.  At present we are evaluating 
> typical frequency references to see if they will fit into this project.
> 
> What I can say is that phase noise is of little interest but log-term 
> frequency drift is.  The completed unit will unfortunately not see GPS 
> signals during most of its lifetime, be constrained to a weight not exceeding 
> 20 lbs, be considered non-recoverable (disposable) due to areas of deployment 
> thereby require a relatively cost-conscious design, have no access to a 
> source of power let alone any natural power-producing resources and have an 
> expected lifetime of 10-12 years without maintenance access.
> 
> Most of the problems have been solved including the power source.  This is 
> not your typical kitchen table project.  And, as new frequency references are 
> developed and the design feasibility phase is still open, small and minimal 
> power-consuming products such as the Novus unit will garner our attention.
> 
> Thanks for your offer,
> 
> Greg
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 10:59:01 -0700, "Tom Van Baak" wrote:
> 
>>Greg,
>>
>>That URL confuses "atom" with performance. Calling something "cesium" in no 
>>way conveys the actual accuracy or stability of the device actually being 
>>offered for sale. A CSAC is not a 5071A is not a cesium fountain is not a 
>>>GPSDO. That's why we use statistics (ADEV) instead of the periodic table.
>>
>>In recent years small, compact, low-voltage, low-power TCXO, OCXO, rubidium, 
>>and cesium oscillators allow companies sell products called "quartz", 
>>"rubidium", and "cesium" with no regard to actual time or frequency or >noise 
>>specifications and performance plots. Even snake oil has an ADEV.
>>
>>Contact me *off-line* about your client and your actual requirements.
>>
>>/tvb
> 


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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Chris Howard]

I'm with Bob in that I don't really understand this description.

And what are we trying to be in phase with? the 1PPS?
Is it possible to reproduce the actual phase of the
clock in the GPS birds once it has been through my GPS
and come out as 1PPS?

I picture the EFC steering the car straight down the road.
And you want to adjust not just the drift to the right but
steer back to the center of the lane.  I think I get
that part.  I don't get who is setting the lane
and why I should care.

Do the statistics (ADEV, etc.) show that this is an improvement?
If I'm doing my slow zigzag down the center line or the
right shoulder, again, do I care?

Chris
w0ep





On 6/13/2013 5:51 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
> on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
> not compensated for. When the system is stable every 16 seconds the
> 16-bit counter rolls over 2441 times with an extra 26624 counts (6800
> HEX). The previous count is subtracted from the current count, the
> difference from 6800 HEX is used to update the EFC to correct the
> frequency, and the current count is stored as the previous count for
> the next sample. When the current difference is not exactly 6800 HEX
> then a phase shift of 6.25ns has occurred over the sample period for
> each count of the difference from 6800 HEX. The EFC corrects the
> frequency to give the proper 6800 HEX over the following samples, but
> the phase shift from the previous error during the correction period
> remains.
>   If you add a little code to provide a correction history you can
> add phase correction to the VE2ZAZ controller as well. Once lock is
> established store the sample count as a phase reference count. Add
> 6800 HEX to the reference count every update and store the result as
> the next reference value. Use the difference between the current and
> previous samples from 6800 HEX to coarse correct the frequency as
> currently done, but add the difference between the current count and
> reference count to the EFC correction as a fine phase correction. If
> hold or unlock occurs disable the phase correction routine until lock
> is re-established. Then store a new reference and restart the phase
> correction process. By updating the reference every update it provides
> a phase history so the accumulated count error over time can be
> removed and the phase of the source can be stabilized.
> 
> Richard
> 
>>
>>
>> Atilla,
>>
>> Isn't the VE2ZAZ circuit functionally equivalent to your example 3?  
>> Granted, he's
>> not picking the 10 millionth transition and checking its phase
>> difference to the reference, but I've only got a 1PPS reference with a
>> 1uS or so jitter from pulse to pulse.  Bert is averaging over 16
>> seconds, and creating a PWM signal to drive an integrator (simulating a 
>> DAC), which
>> will drive a Trimble 34310-T.  And like I mentioned
>> earlier, I just like the way Bert did it.  It has a kind of elegance
>> that appeals to my inner hacker.  =)
>>
>>
>> Bob - AE6RV
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Attila Kinali 
>>> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>> measurement 
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
>> snip
>>> [3] Describes how to use a clock
>>  synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
>>> not the easiest and not the cheapest way, but definitly one with a very
>>> low parts count.
>> snip
>>> [3] The AD9548 as a GPS Disciplined Stratum 2 Clock, by Gentile, 2009
>>> http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1002.pdf
>> ___
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>>
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Demodulator Ckt.

[Didier Juges]

Perrier,

I would be glad to.

About the HP clock manual, I am having a hard time with the foldouts which are 
much bigger than the scanner I have access to at work, looking at getting 
access to a bigger one.

Didier

Perry Sandeen  wrote:

>
>
>All,
> 
>I have used photoshop to clean up so it is easier
>to read and expanded a bit both of Paul Sweed’s D-PSK-R costas loop
>circuits.  I changed the schematic to a
>bit image and it is a TIFF file so one can take it to FedEx office or
>similar
>if one wants a large copy.
> 
>I will send a copy to anyone who wants it.  Please reply off line. 
>Didier if you want to post it on your site
>please feel free to do so.
> 
>Regards,
> 
>Perrier
>
>
>
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-- 
Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other 
things.
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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Bob Stewart]

OK, I believe you.  I can see I have a lot to learn.

Bob



- Original Message -
> From: Richard H McCorkle 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw:  New to list and GPSDO questions
> 
> Hi Bob,
> Any user of a Brooks Shera controller will tell you that phase errors
> can be recovered using a jittery 1PPS reference. While the 1PPS may
> jitter (+/- 42ns in a UT+ GPS) the jitter averages out to zero error
> over time. The Shera controller uses the phase difference between the
> 1PPS and divided by 16 source to drive the EFC to maintain a constant
> phase difference. The Shera design updates every 30 seconds and in
> mode 1 the phase error from setpoint is sent directly to a DAC to
> correct the frequency. Shera adds a selectable filter before the DAC
> to reduce the EFC noise and increase the correction stability. More
> samples averaged over a longer period increases the stability, but
> smaller corrections are applied over a longer period to make the
> phase (frequency) correction.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
>>  Hi Richard,
>> 
>>  As time goes by, I'll reread your post until I understand it.  I'm 
> a newbie, but
>>  It's hard to believe that there is enough information in a jittery 1PPS 
> reference
>>  pulse to be able to recover phase errors.
>> 
>>  Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  - Original Message -
>>>  From: Richard H McCorkle 
>>>  To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and 
> frequency
>>>  measurement 
>>>  Cc:
>>>  Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:51 PM
>>>  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw:  New to list and GPSDO questions
>>> 
>>>  Hi Bob,
>>> 
>>>  The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
>>>  on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
>>>  not compensated for.
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Re: [time-nuts] Carrier meter

[Bob Camp]

HI

He's answering a question from about a day ago on the R-390 list.

Bob

On Jun 13, 2013, at 7:59 PM, WB6BNQ  wrote:

> Perry,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, who the hell are you talking to and more importantly 
> what
> are you talking about ? ? ? ?
> 
> BillWB6BNQ
> 
> 
> Perry Sandeen wrote:
> 
>> List,
>> 
>> Wrote:  I
>> have noticed that my Carrier meter doesn't consistently go to Zero. The Meter
>> itself seems fine.
>> 
>> Your questions are answered in the Y2KR3
>> manual.  See Chapter 11.
>> 
>> While all on the list are willing to help, much
>> angst and lost time can be avoided by perusing chapters 9 and onward.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Perrier
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Carrier meter

[WB6BNQ]

Perry,

Just out of curiosity, who the hell are you talking to and more importantly what
are you talking about ? ? ? ?

BillWB6BNQ


Perry Sandeen wrote:

> List,
>
> Wrote:  I
> have noticed that my Carrier meter doesn't consistently go to Zero. The Meter
> itself seems fine.
>
> Your questions are answered in the Y2KR3
> manual.  See Chapter 11.
>
> While all on the list are willing to help, much
> angst and lost time can be avoided by perusing chapters 9 and onward.
>
> Regards,
>
> Perrier
>
>
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Richard H McCorkle]

Hi Bob,
Any user of a Brooks Shera controller will tell you that phase errors
can be recovered using a jittery 1PPS reference. While the 1PPS may
jitter (+/- 42ns in a UT+ GPS) the jitter averages out to zero error
over time. The Shera controller uses the phase difference between the
1PPS and divided by 16 source to drive the EFC to maintain a constant
phase difference. The Shera design updates every 30 seconds and in
mode 1 the phase error from setpoint is sent directly to a DAC to
correct the frequency. Shera adds a selectable filter before the DAC
to reduce the EFC noise and increase the correction stability. More
samples averaged over a longer period increases the stability, but
smaller corrections are applied over a longer period to make the
phase (frequency) correction.

Richard



> Hi Richard,
>
> As time goes by, I'll reread your post until I understand it.  I'm a newbie, 
> but
> It's hard to believe that there is enough information in a jittery 1PPS 
> reference
> pulse to be able to recover phase errors.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>> From: Richard H McCorkle 
>> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency
>> measurement 
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw:  New to list and GPSDO questions
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
>> on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
>> not compensated for.
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[J. L. Trantham]

Maybe I could do something like that, put it in a 'Plexiglas cube' and put
it on a pedestal in the foyer.

Hmmm.  Maybe not.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rex
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:59 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

On 6/13/2013 9:02 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
> However, as a 'modern art' piece, I might have a chance. :^)
>
> Joe
>
>

Like this?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/images/Bob%20Pease%20Breadboard.
jpg

Hmm, maybe not.

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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[M. Simon]

I like the LPC1114 chip (50 MHz). I am well along on the design of such a board 
using a 40MHz TCXO (good to about .1 PPM when calibrated and operated at room 
temperature) divided down to 10 MHz as the master clock. It has a 10 MHz  real 
50 ohm out with a +5V/0V nominal signal levels. You can put that in your 
counter to tweak it. It has a tweaking  trimmer. 

The LPC1114 is available for about $3 in low quantities. Or free if you can get 
NXP to send you samples.

There is probably another month or three of work to do to complete the project. 
The board will have a 32 bit fig-FORTH to go with it (how retro) making it easy 
to program. Of course if you insist on "C" you can do that too. 

The interfaces include - I2C (LCD display, extra control lines [slow], real 
time clock,  etc). Real DB9 RS-232. TXD, RXD, installed. CTS, RTS, DSR, DTR, 
available. Output levels of +/- 10V nominal (about +/- 8V actual). Top expected 
speed of 115,300 Hz. Jumperable for DCE or DTE (header and jumper shorts). Male 
and Female DB9s.  And of course the capture pins are on a nominal parallel 
port. 

I can post to the list when the project is completed if anyone is interested. 
Bare boards will be available. It is almost all Surface Mount (nothing smaller 
than 0603 case size), but designed for hand soldering. I'm an old man (68), my 
hands shake and my eyes are bad. If I can do it so can you. To help with that I 
have designed a low cost hot air iron. 

http://www.ecnmag.com/blogs/2013/06/diy-hot-air-iron

I am open to modifying the MCU board design for TIME NUTS. Let me know what you 
want. 

Simon

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 22:39:01 +0200
From: Attila Kinali 
To: Bob Stewart , Discussion of precise time and
    frequency    measurement 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
Message-ID: <20130613223901.26b487eed384b6cc8a860...@kinali.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I want this to be as low budget as is reasonably possible, barring wastage,
> so I think a 1PPS source and Bert's FLL are the right choice.? Is there
> actually a PLL circuit that works with a 1PPS reference?? I only found a
> very few GPSDO projects during my search, and Bert's was the only one using
> the 1PPS signal.? And, I just like the way he did it, right down to giving
> the possibility of powering the output op-amp from the VREF output of the
> 34310-T.? I'm assuming that won't overload it, of course, so any comments on
> that would be appreciated.

[1] is probably the most cited GPSDO design. It's simple, it works and
you can build it quite cheaply

[2] is similar to what Shera did, with slight modifications on how to
measure the "phase".

[3] Describes how to use a clock synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
not the easiest and not the cheapest way, but definitly one with a very
low parts count.


I think the cheapest way how to do a GPSDO that is fairly well accurate
is to use a uC with a high clock rate and a 32bit capture/compare unit
(eg STM32F4 which can do 78MHz on their c/c unit, thus giving ~14ns
resolution for ~15USD for the naked chip or an eval board).
Feed the 10MHz from your OCXO to the uC's clock input. Use the internal
PLL to upconvert it to what you need (i.e. as high a frequency as possible).
Feed the 1PPS to one of the c/c pins and measure when it enters. 

If your OCXO is fairly stable, you can integrate over a minute or two
(or even longer) and get down to uncertainties below 10^-9.

If you tweak your control loop such, that the mean of your PPS pulse
is exactly between two bins of your c/c, then you can get even better
than the resolution of your c/c, if your GPS generates a symetrical
distribution of the PPS pulse.

HTH

            Attila Kinali


[1] A GPS Based Frequency Standard, by Shera, 1998
http://www.rt66.com/~shera/QST_GPS.pdf

[2] Building a GPSDO controller, by Pedersen, 2011
http://n1.taur.dk/gpsdo2a.pdf

[3] The AD9548 as a GPS Disciplined Stratum 2 Clock, by Gentile, 2009
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1002.pdf





-- 
The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
who also happen to be insane and gross.
        -- unknown


 



Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a 
profit.
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[time-nuts] Neat little cesium box

[Gregory Muir]

Tom,

Thank you for your concern.  I unfortunately cannot disclose many details about 
the proposed project only to say that the application transcends much of the 
typical "Time-Nuts" areas of normality.  At present we are evaluating typical 
frequency references to see if they will fit into this project.

What I can say is that phase noise is of little interest but log-term frequency 
drift is.  The completed unit will unfortunately not see GPS signals during 
most of its lifetime, be constrained to a weight not exceeding 20 lbs, be 
considered non-recoverable (disposable) due to areas of deployment thereby 
require a relatively cost-conscious design, have no access to a source of power 
let alone any natural power-producing resources and have an expected lifetime 
of 10-12 years without maintenance access.

Most of the problems have been solved including the power source.  This is not 
your typical kitchen table project.  And, as new frequency references are 
developed and the design feasibility phase is still open, small and minimal 
power-consuming products such as the Novus unit will garner our attention.

Thanks for your offer,

Greg

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 10:59:01 -0700, "Tom Van Baak" wrote:

>Greg,
>
>That URL confuses "atom" with performance. Calling something "cesium" in no 
>way conveys the actual accuracy or stability of the device actually being 
>offered for sale. A CSAC is not a 5071A is not a cesium fountain is not a 
>>GPSDO. That's why we use statistics (ADEV) instead of the periodic table.
>
>In recent years small, compact, low-voltage, low-power TCXO, OCXO, rubidium, 
>and cesium oscillators allow companies sell products called "quartz", 
>"rubidium", and "cesium" with no regard to actual time or frequency or >noise 
>specifications and performance plots. Even snake oil has an ADEV.
>
>Contact me *off-line* about your client and your actual requirements.
>
>/tvb

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[time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[Burt I. Weiner]

Answering my own question...  I happen to remember a Junghans "Atomic 
Clock" that is in one of my equipment case.  I dug in and pulled it 
out and discovered much to my glee, that it was set to the correct 
time and the day counter since it was last set was at zero.  So 
apparently it's still working fine.


Here's a link to the clocks I 
have:  http://www.junghansusa.com/Category/713_1/Atomic_Clocks.aspx


Really nice clocks for field work.

Burt, K6OQK


I wrote in part...
So now the question is, where do you find clocks that should set with
the new WWVB Format?

Burt, K6OQK


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Richard H McCorkle]

Hi Bob,

The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
not compensated for. When the system is stable every 16 seconds the
16-bit counter rolls over 2441 times with an extra 26624 counts (6800
HEX). The previous count is subtracted from the current count, the
difference from 6800 HEX is used to update the EFC to correct the
frequency, and the current count is stored as the previous count for
the next sample. When the current difference is not exactly 6800 HEX
then a phase shift of 6.25ns has occurred over the sample period for
each count of the difference from 6800 HEX. The EFC corrects the
frequency to give the proper 6800 HEX over the following samples, but
the phase shift from the previous error during the correction period
remains.
  If you add a little code to provide a correction history you can
add phase correction to the VE2ZAZ controller as well. Once lock is
established store the sample count as a phase reference count. Add
6800 HEX to the reference count every update and store the result as
the next reference value. Use the difference between the current and
previous samples from 6800 HEX to coarse correct the frequency as
currently done, but add the difference between the current count and
reference count to the EFC correction as a fine phase correction. If
hold or unlock occurs disable the phase correction routine until lock
is re-established. Then store a new reference and restart the phase
correction process. By updating the reference every update it provides
a phase history so the accumulated count error over time can be
removed and the phase of the source can be stabilized.

Richard

>
>
> Atilla,
>
> Isn't the VE2ZAZ circuit functionally equivalent to your example 3?  Granted, 
> he's
> not picking the 10 millionth transition and checking its phase
> difference to the reference, but I've only got a 1PPS reference with a
> 1uS or so jitter from pulse to pulse.  Bert is averaging over 16
> seconds, and creating a PWM signal to drive an integrator (simulating a DAC), 
> which
> will drive a Trimble 34310-T.  And like I mentioned
> earlier, I just like the way Bert did it.  It has a kind of elegance
> that appeals to my inner hacker.  =)
>
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>> From: Attila Kinali 
>> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency
>> measurement 
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
> snip
>> [3] Describes how to use a clock
>  synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
>> not the easiest and not the cheapest way, but definitly one with a very
>> low parts count.
> snip
>> [3] The AD9548 as a GPS Disciplined Stratum 2 Clock, by Gentile, 2009
>> http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1002.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Bob Stewart]

Hi Richard,

As time goes by, I'll reread your post until I understand it.  I'm a newbie, 
but It's hard to believe that there is enough information in a jittery 1PPS 
reference pulse to be able to recover phase errors.

Bob



- Original Message -
> From: Richard H McCorkle 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw:  New to list and GPSDO questions
> 
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The VE2ZAZ controller is a frequency locked loop that keeps the source
> on frequency but over time the phase drifts, as past corrections are
> not compensated for. 
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Joe wrote:


In a slightly different direction, are there any commercially available 'PSK
Compliant Atomic Clocks' out there for those of us used to looking at the
'correct time'?

Also, what, exactly, was the advantage of changing modulation formats?  That
'killed' all the existing 'Atomic Clocks'?


No, it killed phase-locking instruments, including the Spectracom 
clocks.  Most "atomic clocks" designed for time-of-day use do not, 
and never did, phase lock to the WWVB carrier.  My 20-year-old 
Brookstone "atomic clock" still works just as it always did (within 
tens of mS AFAICT).  So should most other older "atomic clocks," and 
everything currently available from the many time-of-day "atomic 
clock" suppliers.


Best regards,

Charles




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[time-nuts] Electronic Sculpture

[gsteinba52]

Try this article - electronic sculpture starts about page three...


http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4411017/Jim-Williams--The-light-side-and-classic-electronics-art-sculptures

JW was an amazing fellow.

Jerry S


ps. Note the use of crystal oscillators (just to keep it Time-Nuts related).

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[time-nuts] Carrier meter

[Perry Sandeen]

List,
 
Wrote:  I
have noticed that my Carrier meter doesn't consistently go to Zero. The Meter
itself seems fine.
 
Your questions are answered in the Y2KR3
manual.  See Chapter 11.  
 
While all on the list are willing to help, much
angst and lost time can be avoided by perusing chapters 9 and onward.
 
Regards,
 
Perrier
 



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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[paul swed]

Burt thats easy. The secret wwvb society of clock makers. I can assure you
the new silicon is $ XXK. But then perhaps some can afford that. There is a
company that does have the software and IP and its only one company they
have what ever the market is. Locked in. The funny thing is who ever they
are selling to they are awful quite.
Hate to say it "Your government and tax dollars at work".


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Well, at 12:00 Noon I watched to see what would happen (I wonder if the
> 12:00 Noon is pacific or elsewhere?)  The problem continued.  So apparently
> the twice a day legacy time signal is, as Paul said, no more.
>
> Checking around home we have several "atomic clocks".  Based on my GPS
> clock time, they are all off by many seconds.  A friend of mine observes
> the same thing with all of his "atomic clocks"..
>
> So now the question is, where do you find clocks that should set with the
> new WWVB Format?
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
>
>  From: paul swed 
>>
>> Burt what you mention was indeed correct. But that non psk time was
>> stopped
>> about a month ago.
>> Its pure PSK now as far as I know
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>>
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > Thanks for the information. Late last night I did a search and found out
>> > about the "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather there is no
>> > final design that says, "Here, build this and it'll work". I have a
>> malady
>> > that I suspect is common in this group; I hate to throw anything away or
>> > convert it to a door stop.
>> >
>> > Supposedly, WWVB reverts back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 12:00
>> > Noon and again at 12:00 Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. Last night
>> my
>> > 8170 did not set. At my location the signal has been the most stable
>> during
>> > the day, so I'm going to watch it today at noon. I'll report my useless
>> > findings afterwards. If it were to set once every 24 hours I would
>> probably
>> > be happy as I'm not using it to time a network, just to hopefully be a
>> > little more accurate than my 30 year old kitchen clock.
>>
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[paul swed]

Could be. If those are the am detector type clocks they will work.
The ones I have do.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:26 PM,  wrote:

> I have four 15 year old Junghans Mega clocks through out the house. Ten
> days ago I noticed one of them dead. Battery, and by the look of the
> battery
> dead at least a month. I inserted a new battery and it did set. I did not
> watch  it but today I went with one of them through the house and all are
> exact within  a second. Even advance the second as close as I am able to
> observe. I am  confident they synch daily.
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 6/13/2013 2:08:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> paulsw...@gmail.com writes:
>
> Burt  what you mention was indeed correct. But that non psk time was
> stopped
> about a month ago.
> Its pure PSK now as far as I  know
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Burt I. Weiner   wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > Thanks for the  information. Late last night I did a search and found out
> > about the  "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather there is no
> > final  design that says, "Here, build this and it'll work". I have a
> malady
> >  that I suspect is common in this group; I hate to throw anything away
>  or
> > convert it to a door stop.
> >
> > Supposedly, WWVB reverts  back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 12:00
> > Noon and again at 12:00  Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. Last night
> my
> > 8170 did not set. At  my location the signal has been the most stable
> during
> > the day, so I'm  going to watch it today at noon. I'll report my useless
> > findings  afterwards. If it were to set once every 24 hours I would
> probably
> > be  happy as I'm not using it to time a network, just to hopefully be a
> >  little more accurate than my 30 year old kitchen clock.
> >
> > By the  way...  Earlier I mentioned that I have two 9150-52054 GPS units.
> >  Apparently my mind and fingers were not speaking to each other at that
> >  moment as I have should've typed, (DATUM) 9390-52054. Both of these  run
> > 24/7, use separate antennas and are on a UPS. I'm sure you've seen  my
> > various epistles in this group about them. Since I've changed out  their
> > power supplies and upgraded their crystal oscillators, they're  most
> happy.
> >
> > Burt, K6OQK
> >  www.biwa.cc
> >
> >
> >
> >  Burt search time nuts its  all there. Its not a kit by any means.
> >> Spectracom did a very good  job. To good, though in reality they simply
> >> reused the phase  tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
> >> locks to  the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes
> the
> >>  carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the
> carrier
> >> leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK,  since the
> >> carrier
> >> no longer has a  relationship.
> >> Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for  over a year, so
> what
> >> can you say. Though we all have lots of  strong opinions actually. Don't
> >> want
> >> to start that  thread again.
> >> I have often thought and will spend no time doing  it. Simply replace
> the
> >> demod with a diode detector. Now its not  actually quite that easy. But
> if
> >> the only thing I had was a 8170  what the heck. The schematics of the
> >> system
> >> are  available at spectracom.
> >>
> >> Near as I can tell the 8170  would run about 2 days on a fix.
> >>
> >> Off to seriously  sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into
> >>  the
> >> system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that  really is
> >> ugly.
> >> Though you end up with those nice  clock digits working again. Hey when
> you
> >> do that send me the old  rcvr parts. ;-)
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>  Paul.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM,  Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> >>
> >> >  Paul,
> >> >
> >> > U... What a revolting development  this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
> >> > smaller readout out that  I can't see without climbing up on my bench,
> >> > so I suppose I  will no longer know what time it is.
> >>
> >
> > Burt I.  Weiner Associates
> > Broadcast Technical Services
> > Glendale,  California  U.S.A.
> > b...@att.net
> > www.biwa.cc
> >  K6OQK
> > __**_
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> >
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[paul swed]

Sorry thats a bit much. It does look like a rats nest. Colors good.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Rex  wrote:

> On 6/13/2013 9:02 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
>
>> However, as a 'modern art' piece, I might have a chance. :^)
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
> Like this?
>
> http://www.rfcafe.com/**references/electrical/images/**
> Bob%20Pease%20Breadboard.jpg
>
> Hmm, maybe not.
>
>
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[time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[Burt I. Weiner]

Well, at 12:00 Noon I watched to see what would happen (I wonder if 
the 12:00 Noon is pacific or elsewhere?)  The problem continued.  So 
apparently the twice a day legacy time signal is, as Paul said, no more.


Checking around home we have several "atomic clocks".  Based on my 
GPS clock time, they are all off by many seconds.  A friend of mine 
observes the same thing with all of his "atomic clocks"..


So now the question is, where do you find clocks that should set with 
the new WWVB Format?


Burt, K6OQK



From: paul swed 

Burt what you mention was indeed correct. But that non psk time was stopped
about a month ago.
Its pure PSK now as far as I know


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Thanks for the information. Late last night I did a search and found out
> about the "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather there is no
> final design that says, "Here, build this and it'll work". I have a malady
> that I suspect is common in this group; I hate to throw anything away or
> convert it to a door stop.
>
> Supposedly, WWVB reverts back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 12:00
> Noon and again at 12:00 Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. Last night my
> 8170 did not set. At my location the signal has been the most stable during
> the day, so I'm going to watch it today at noon. I'll report my useless
> findings afterwards. If it were to set once every 24 hours I would probably
> be happy as I'm not using it to time a network, just to hopefully be a
> little more accurate than my 30 year old kitchen clock.


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[EWKehren]

I have four 15 year old Junghans Mega clocks through out the house. Ten  
days ago I noticed one of them dead. Battery, and by the look of the battery  
dead at least a month. I inserted a new battery and it did set. I did not 
watch  it but today I went with one of them through the house and all are 
exact within  a second. Even advance the second as close as I am able to 
observe. I am  confident they synch daily.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 6/13/2013 2:08:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

Burt  what you mention was indeed correct. But that non psk time was  
stopped
about a month ago.
Its pure PSK now as far as I  know


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Burt I. Weiner   wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Thanks for the  information. Late last night I did a search and found out
> about the  "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather there is no
> final  design that says, "Here, build this and it'll work". I have a 
malady
>  that I suspect is common in this group; I hate to throw anything away  or
> convert it to a door stop.
>
> Supposedly, WWVB reverts  back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 12:00
> Noon and again at 12:00  Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. Last night my
> 8170 did not set. At  my location the signal has been the most stable 
during
> the day, so I'm  going to watch it today at noon. I'll report my useless
> findings  afterwards. If it were to set once every 24 hours I would 
probably
> be  happy as I'm not using it to time a network, just to hopefully be a
>  little more accurate than my 30 year old kitchen clock.
>
> By the  way...  Earlier I mentioned that I have two 9150-52054 GPS units.
>  Apparently my mind and fingers were not speaking to each other at that
>  moment as I have should've typed, (DATUM) 9390-52054. Both of these  run
> 24/7, use separate antennas and are on a UPS. I'm sure you've seen  my
> various epistles in this group about them. Since I've changed out  their
> power supplies and upgraded their crystal oscillators, they're  most 
happy.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>  www.biwa.cc
>
>
>
>  Burt search time nuts its  all there. Its not a kit by any means.
>> Spectracom did a very good  job. To good, though in reality they simply
>> reused the phase  tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
>> locks to  the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes 
the
>>  carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the  
carrier
>> leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK,  since the
>> carrier
>> no longer has a  relationship.
>> Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for  over a year, so 
what
>> can you say. Though we all have lots of  strong opinions actually. Don't
>> want
>> to start that  thread again.
>> I have often thought and will spend no time doing  it. Simply replace the
>> demod with a diode detector. Now its not  actually quite that easy. But 
if
>> the only thing I had was a 8170  what the heck. The schematics of the
>> system
>> are  available at spectracom.
>>
>> Near as I can tell the 8170  would run about 2 days on a fix.
>>
>> Off to seriously  sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into
>>  the
>> system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that  really is
>> ugly.
>> Though you end up with those nice  clock digits working again. Hey when 
you
>> do that send me the old  rcvr parts. ;-)
>>
>> Regards
>>  Paul.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM,  Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>>
>> >  Paul,
>> >
>> > U... What a revolting development  this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
>> > smaller readout out that  I can't see without climbing up on my bench,
>> > so I suppose I  will no longer know what time it is.
>>
>
> Burt I.  Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale,  California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
>  K6OQK
> __**_
>  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
>  
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>  and follow the instructions  there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/13/2013 11:02 PM, Stefan Heinzmann wrote:

Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 06/13/2013 04:26 PM, Stefan Heinzmann wrote:

Azelio Boriani wrote:

The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
time.

Does that matter for phase noise measurements? Doesn't that just make
the measurement take correspondingly more time?


It matters a lot, since the length of memory will limit the how close
in you can do it. You can naturally make multiple runs, and that's
what the TimePod do, but with decimations done in realtime by the
firmware.

You can do it with high speed ADCs, but it won't bee cost efficient
and it will cost you in speed, as you need to do much in software
processing to get there.

The TimePod is in that context a fairly well balanced design as in
bang for the buck. Another aspect I like is that it can do pretty neat
long-term measurements.


That's of course true when you want to build or buy an instrument just
for this job. I don't question the Timepod, on the contrary I think it
is a very good instrument. My aim was rather to find another use for a
scope that's already there (it isn't in my case yet, but will be).

The R&S RTO seems to have a few unusual capabilities for a scope, which
might help here. It does seem to do decimation and a number of other
math functions in hardware and in real-time. Looking at their
description of the I/Q option reminded me of the Timepod manual,
specifically the block diagram in there, and brought me to the question
I'm asking here. Have a look if you're interested:
http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/file/1TD01_0e_RTO_IQ_Software_Interface.pdf

While the scope may not be able to continuously acquire and
cross-correlate, with no dead time, I would think it capable of taking
fairly long shots by storing only the decimated data. There's a chance
of it being suitable for phase noise down to 10 Hz from the carrier, I
think. Perhaps closer than that. That would already be quite useful, I'd
say.


Now, that would indeed be very handy.

It's not that you can use todays realtime sampling scopes and use two 
channels for cross-correlation, it will work, it will just take many 
runs to get anywhere. Cross-correlation is pretty cheap if done via FFT, 
and wrapping FFTW to do it only takes about 20-30 lines of code.


Having a scope able to do decimation up-front is quite similar to what 
the TimePod do, and when quickly browsing the manual it looks useful.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[Rex]

On 6/13/2013 9:02 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

However, as a 'modern art' piece, I might have a chance. :^)

Joe




Like this?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/images/Bob%20Pease%20Breadboard.jpg

Hmm, maybe not.

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[time-nuts] Fw: New to list and GPSDO questions

[Bob Stewart]

Atilla,

Isn't the VE2ZAZ circuit functionally equivalent to your example 3?  Granted, 
he's not picking the 10 millionth transition and checking its phase 
difference to the reference, but I've only got a 1PPS reference with a 
1uS or so jitter from pulse to pulse.  Bert is averaging over 16 
seconds, and creating a PWM signal to drive an integrator (simulating a DAC), 
which will drive a Trimble 34310-T.  And like I mentioned 
earlier, I just like the way Bert did it.  It has a kind of elegance 
that appeals to my inner hacker.  =)


Bob - AE6RV



- Original Message -
> From: Attila Kinali 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
snip
> [3] Describes how to use a clock
 synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
> not the easiest and not the cheapest way, but definitly one with a very
> low parts count.
snip
> [3] The AD9548 as a GPS Disciplined Stratum 2 Clock, by Gentile, 2009
> http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1002.pdf
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Stefan Heinzmann]

Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 06/13/2013 04:26 PM, Stefan Heinzmann wrote:

Azelio Boriani wrote:

The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
time.

Does that matter for phase noise measurements? Doesn't that just make
the measurement take correspondingly more time?


It matters a lot, since the length of memory will limit the how close 
in you can do it. You can naturally make multiple runs, and that's 
what the TimePod do, but with decimations done in realtime by the 
firmware.


You can do it with high speed ADCs, but it won't bee cost efficient 
and it will cost you in speed, as you need to do much in software 
processing to get there.


The TimePod is in that context a fairly well balanced design as in 
bang for the buck. Another aspect I like is that it can do pretty neat 
long-term measurements.


That's of course true when you want to build or buy an instrument just 
for this job. I don't question the Timepod, on the contrary I think it 
is a very good instrument. My aim was rather to find another use for a 
scope that's already there (it isn't in my case yet, but will be).


The R&S RTO seems to have a few unusual capabilities for a scope, which 
might help here. It does seem to do decimation and a number of other 
math functions in hardware and in real-time. Looking at their 
description of the I/Q option reminded me of the Timepod manual, 
specifically the block diagram in there, and brought me to the question 
I'm asking here. Have a look if you're interested:

http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/file/1TD01_0e_RTO_IQ_Software_Interface.pdf

While the scope may not be able to continuously acquire and 
cross-correlate, with no dead time, I would think it capable of taking 
fairly long shots by storing only the decimated data. There's a chance 
of it being suitable for phase noise down to 10 Hz from the carrier, I 
think. Perhaps closer than that. That would already be quite useful, I'd 
say.


Cheers
Stefan

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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT)
Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I want this to be as low budget as is reasonably possible, barring wastage,
> so I think a 1PPS source and Bert's FLL are the right choice.  Is there
> actually a PLL circuit that works with a 1PPS reference?  I only found a
> very few GPSDO projects during my search, and Bert's was the only one using
> the 1PPS signal.  And, I just like the way he did it, right down to giving
> the possibility of powering the output op-amp from the VREF output of the
> 34310-T.  I'm assuming that won't overload it, of course, so any comments on
> that would be appreciated.

[1] is probably the most cited GPSDO design. It's simple, it works and
you can build it quite cheaply

[2] is similar to what Shera did, with slight modifications on how to
measure the "phase".

[3] Describes how to use a clock synchronizer to build a GPSDO. Probably
not the easiest and not the cheapest way, but definitly one with a very
low parts count.


I think the cheapest way how to do a GPSDO that is fairly well accurate
is to use a uC with a high clock rate and a 32bit capture/compare unit
(eg STM32F4 which can do 78MHz on their c/c unit, thus giving ~14ns
resolution for ~15USD for the naked chip or an eval board).
Feed the 10MHz from your OCXO to the uC's clock input. Use the internal
PLL to upconvert it to what you need (i.e. as high a frequency as possible).
Feed the 1PPS to one of the c/c pins and measure when it enters. 

If your OCXO is fairly stable, you can integrate over a minute or two
(or even longer) and get down to uncertainties below 10^-9.

If you tweak your control loop such, that the mean of your PPS pulse
is exactly between two bins of your c/c, then you can get even better
than the resolution of your c/c, if your GPS generates a symetrical
distribution of the PPS pulse.

HTH

Attila Kinali


[1] A GPS Based Frequency Standard, by Shera, 1998
http://www.rt66.com/~shera/QST_GPS.pdf

[2] Building a GPSDO controller, by Pedersen, 2011
http://n1.taur.dk/gpsdo2a.pdf

[3] The AD9548 as a GPS Disciplined Stratum 2 Clock, by Gentile, 2009
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/application_notes/AN-1002.pdf





-- 
The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
who also happen to be insane and gross.
-- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/13/2013 04:26 PM, Stefan Heinzmann wrote:

Azelio Boriani wrote:

The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
time.

Does that matter for phase noise measurements? Doesn't that just make
the measurement take correspondingly more time?


It matters a lot, since the length of memory will limit the how close in 
you can do it. You can naturally make multiple runs, and that's what the 
TimePod do, but with decimations done in realtime by the firmware.


You can do it with high speed ADCs, but it won't bee cost efficient and 
it will cost you in speed, as you need to do much in software processing 
to get there.


The TimePod is in that context a fairly well balanced design as in bang 
for the buck. Another aspect I like is that it can do pretty neat 
long-term measurements.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[paul swed]

Bob definition. Simple project works, costs little. Yes sir the VE2ZAZ does
exactly that.
By the way having several 8640bs you can lock the counter in it to your new
reference and it will be quite good. far more accurate then it had been and
stable. Doesn't help thesig gen unless you lock it.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> The OP says the GPSDO will be used to drive an HP5334B.
> Doesn't that imply that about one part in 10^10 (or 1E-10) is required.
> That is very easy to do with any GPSDO.  OK maybe 1E-10 is not the right
> answer but fact that this is for the HP5334B should tell us what he needs.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:47 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>
> > ..
> > Whats really not been mentioned in the thread is how accurate do you want
> > to be or need.
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Chris Albertson]

The OP says the GPSDO will be used to drive an HP5334B.
Doesn't that imply that about one part in 10^10 (or 1E-10) is required.
That is very easy to do with any GPSDO.  OK maybe 1E-10 is not the right
answer but fact that this is for the HP5334B should tell us what he needs.



On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:47 AM, paul swed  wrote:

> ..
> Whats really not been mentioned in the thread is how accurate do you want
> to be or need.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Bob Stewart]

Hi Paul, and everyone.  Yeah, that's a good question: how much accuracy do I 
want?  I'm really just looking for a relatively easy project; one that will go 
to successful completion and give me a sense of accomplishment.  At this 
moment, I have the problem of the man with two clocks.  Better than 1 Hz @ 
10MHz accuracy would be good.  But, realistically, if the 5334B and 8640B both 
tell me the same thing, then I'll probably be happy.  I could do that with the 
Trimble 34310-T, a pot and a flip-flop, but then I'd feel compelled to listen 
to WWV on occasion and tweak the pot!  LOL  I do have OCD, so I'm getting 
involved with timing with more than a little trepidation.

I want this to be as low budget as is reasonably possible, barring wastage, so 
I think a 1PPS source and Bert's FLL are the right choice.  Is there actually a 
PLL circuit that works with a 1PPS reference?  I only found a very few GPSDO 
projects during my search, and Bert's was the only one using the 1PPS signal.  
And, I just like the way he did it, right down to giving the possibility of 
powering the output op-amp from the VREF output of the 34310-T.  I'm assuming 
that won't overload it, of course, so any comments on that would be appreciated.

Bob - AE6RV




- Original Message -
> From: paul swed 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions
> 
> Absolutely agree with this comment. But understand thats a trade off for
> simplicity and for many radio operators its good enough as they say.
> Whats really not been mentioned in the thread is how accurate do you want
> to be or need.
> Be very careful with the answer. Time is the drug that keeps on giving.
> $
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
>>  On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
>>  Bob Stewart  wrote:
>> 
>>  > Hello to the list.  I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that
>>  > the UT-41 GPS receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why 
> not
>>  > build a GPSDO for my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one 
> I bought
>>  doesn't
>>  > have a 10KHz point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS 
> signal
>>  from
>>  > the chip.  So I've had to switch gears and will go with 
> VE2ZAZ's board.
>> 
>>  Please be aware that VE2ZAZ's design uses a frequency locked loop and 
> not
>>  a phase locked loop. Thus you end up with a slight frequency error
>>  (instead of a slight phase error).
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[paul swed]

Absolutely agree with this comment. But understand thats a trade off for
simplicity and for many radio operators its good enough as they say.
Whats really not been mentioned in the thread is how accurate do you want
to be or need.
Be very careful with the answer. Time is the drug that keeps on giving.
$
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
> Bob Stewart  wrote:
>
> > Hello to the list.  I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that
> > the UT-41 GPS receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why not
> > build a GPSDO for my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one I bought
> doesn't
> > have a 10KHz point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS signal
> from
> > the chip.  So I've had to switch gears and will go with VE2ZAZ's board.
>
> Please be aware that VE2ZAZ's design uses a frequency locked loop and not
> a phase locked loop. Thus you end up with a slight frequency error
> (instead of a slight phase error).
>
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
> who also happen to be insane and gross.
> -- unknown
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Neat little cesium box

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 10:25:52 -0600
"Gregory Muir"  wrote:

> Am looking at a small cesium standard for a proposed client project:
> 
> http://synreference.com/frequency-references/cesium-reference/item/37-portable-battery-powered-reference.html

The datasheet of this "neat" little thingy sound very much like
they put a CSAC into a black box. Heck, they even took the wording
from the CSAC description:

---
[...]Two orders of magnitude better accuracy than oven-controlled crystal
oscillators (OCXOs) -- and up to four orders of magnitude better accuracy than
temperature-controlled oscillators (TCXOs). An outstanding reference for field
applications when an OCXO is not sufficient without the complications of
a GPS based reference.
---

versus

---
At two orders of magnitude better accuracy than oven-controlled crystal
oscillators (OCXOs) — and up to four orders of magnitude better accuracy than
temperature-controlled oscillators (TCXOs) — the CSAC’s unmatched portability
opens the door to new classes of applications, such as [...]
---


If i were you, i would take Tom up on his offer to review your clients
requirements. He knows the stuff around all this mess we have with
frequency standards :)

Attila Kinali 

-- 
The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
who also happen to be insane and gross.
-- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Attila Kinali]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
Bob Stewart  wrote:

> Hello to the list.  I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that
> the UT-41 GPS receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why not
> build a GPSDO for my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one I bought doesn't
> have a 10KHz point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS signal from
> the chip.  So I've had to switch gears and will go with VE2ZAZ's board. 

Please be aware that VE2ZAZ's design uses a frequency locked loop and not
a phase locked loop. Thus you end up with a slight frequency error
(instead of a slight phase error).


Attila Kinali

-- 
The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
who also happen to be insane and gross.
-- unknown
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[time-nuts] No physical support style construction...

[Burt I. Weiner]

When I was in Jr. High School I built a CW transmitter using a 6AG7 
crystal controlled oscillator and an 807 for the final.  The 
interesting part was that I did not use a chassis.  I simple 
connected all the parts together, power supply and all, in sort of a 
heap on my work bench.  (I'm sure it would've kept transmitting 
somewhere had I pulled the crystal out of it's socket.)  It worked 
and I made several contacts.  AND I saved money by not buying a 
chassis.  Sometimes I wonder how I've managed to live long enough to 
become this ancient.


Burt, K6OQK


Behalf Of paul swed

Joe
Thats really a silly statement. The issue is this, we tech types put things
in rows and columns. But true artists use dead bug style with lots of wire
and parts flying everyplace.
Put the whole glob in a picture frame and you have a seriously worthy piece
of art. How could your wife complain? Plus you get time out of it. Its all
about how you sell it.
Regards
Paul



Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Volker Esper]

...but remember, you don't need 10kHz to get the control loop working. 
Since you need a time constant of some hours, the PPS output will do. 
Even more important is to use a good OCXO.


By the way: welcome to the list :-)

Volker


Am 13.06.2013 12:20, schrieb cfo:

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:29:26 -0700, Bob Stewart wrote:

   

I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that the UT-41 GPS
receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why not build a GPSDO
for my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one I bought doesn't have a
10KHz point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS signal from
the chip.
 

As a backup plan have a look at this one *Bay 290860812674
It has 10Khz, afaik it's the one mentioned for the Miller GPSDO.

Make sure also to get the Antenna cable that belongs to it.

CFO
Denmark

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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[paul swed]

Burt what you mention was indeed correct. But that non psk time was stopped
about a month ago.
Its pure PSK now as far as I know


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Thanks for the information. Late last night I did a search and found out
> about the "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather there is no
> final design that says, "Here, build this and it'll work". I have a malady
> that I suspect is common in this group; I hate to throw anything away or
> convert it to a door stop.
>
> Supposedly, WWVB reverts back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 12:00
> Noon and again at 12:00 Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. Last night my
> 8170 did not set. At my location the signal has been the most stable during
> the day, so I'm going to watch it today at noon. I'll report my useless
> findings afterwards. If it were to set once every 24 hours I would probably
> be happy as I'm not using it to time a network, just to hopefully be a
> little more accurate than my 30 year old kitchen clock.
>
> By the way...  Earlier I mentioned that I have two 9150-52054 GPS units.
> Apparently my mind and fingers were not speaking to each other at that
> moment as I have should've typed, (DATUM) 9390-52054. Both of these run
> 24/7, use separate antennas and are on a UPS. I'm sure you've seen my
> various epistles in this group about them. Since I've changed out their
> power supplies and upgraded their crystal oscillators, they're most happy.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
> www.biwa.cc
>
>
>
>  Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
>> Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
>> reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
>> locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes the
>> carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the carrier
>> leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK, since the
>> carrier
>> no longer has a relationship.
>> Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so what
>> can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. Don't
>> want
>> to start that thread again.
>> I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace the
>> demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. But if
>> the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics of the
>> system
>> are available at spectracom.
>>
>> Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.
>>
>> Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into
>> the
>> system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that really is
>> ugly.
>> Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when you
>> do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)
>>
>> Regards
>> Paul.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>>
>> > Paul,
>> >
>> > U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
>> > smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my bench,
>> > so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
>>
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neat little cesium box

[Tom Van Baak]

> Am looking at a small cesium standard for a proposed client project:

Greg,

That URL confuses "atom" with performance. Calling something "cesium" in no way 
conveys the actual accuracy or stability of the device actually being offered 
for sale. A CSAC is not a 5071A is not a cesium fountain is not a GPSDO. That's 
why we use statistics (ADEV) instead of the periodic table.

In recent years small, compact, low-voltage, low-power TCXO, OCXO, rubidium, 
and cesium oscillators allow companies sell products called "quartz", 
"rubidium", and "cesium" with no regard to actual time or frequency or noise 
specifications and performance plots. Even snake oil has an ADEV.

Contact me *off-line* about your client and your actual requirements.

/tvb


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[time-nuts] WWVB Demodulator Ckt.

[Perry Sandeen]

All,
 
I have used photoshop to clean up so it is easier
to read and expanded a bit both of Paul Sweed’s D-PSK-R costas loop
circuits.  I changed the schematic to a
bit image and it is a TIFF file so one can take it to FedEx office or similar
if one wants a large copy.
 
I will send a copy to anyone who wants it.  Please reply off line.  Didier if 
you want to post it on your site
please feel free to do so.
 
Regards,
 
Perrier



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[time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[Burt I. Weiner]

Paul,

Thanks for the information. Late last night I did a search and found 
out about the "d-pskr-r" - an appropriate name, indeed. I gather 
there is no final design that says, "Here, build this and it'll 
work". I have a malady that I suspect is common in this group; I hate 
to throw anything away or convert it to a door stop.


Supposedly, WWVB reverts back to the non-psk mode twice a day, at 
12:00 Noon and again at 12:00 Midnight, each time for 30 minutes. 
Last night my 8170 did not set. At my location the signal has been 
the most stable during the day, so I'm going to watch it today at 
noon. I'll report my useless findings afterwards. If it were to set 
once every 24 hours I would probably be happy as I'm not using it to 
time a network, just to hopefully be a little more accurate than my 
30 year old kitchen clock.


By the way...  Earlier I mentioned that I have two 9150-52054 GPS 
units. Apparently my mind and fingers were not speaking to each other 
at that moment as I have should've typed, (DATUM) 9390-52054. Both of 
these run 24/7, use separate antennas and are on a UPS. I'm sure 
you've seen my various epistles in this group about them. Since I've 
changed out their power supplies and upgraded their crystal 
oscillators, they're most happy.


Burt, K6OQK
www.biwa.cc




Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes the
carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the carrier
leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK, since the carrier
no longer has a relationship.
Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so what
can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. Don't want
to start that thread again.
I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace the
demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. But if
the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics of the system
are available at spectracom.

Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.

Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into the
system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that really is ugly.
Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when you
do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)

Regards
Paul.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
> smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my bench,
> so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[paul swed]

Especially if they help design the cute connecting wires. 3D like.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Having an 'engineering' mind set, it's all about form and function.
> However, my wife and daughter being Interior Designers, it's all about
> presentation.  Unfortunately, selling is not my long suit.
>
> However, as a 'modern art' piece, I might have a chance. :^)
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:37 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)
>
> Joe
> Thats really a silly statement. The issue is this, we tech types put things
> in rows and columns. But true artists use dead bug style with lots of wire
> and parts flying everyplace.
> Put the whole glob in a picture frame and you have a seriously worthy piece
> of art. How could your wife complain? Plus you get time out of it. Its all
> about how you sell it.
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:32 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:
>
> > In a slightly different direction, are there any commercially
> > available 'PSK Compliant Atomic Clocks' out there for those of us used
> > to looking at the 'correct time'?
> >
> > Also, what, exactly, was the advantage of changing modulation formats?
> >  That
> > 'killed' all the existing 'Atomic Clocks'?
> >
> > I have looked at the Costas Loop article by Paul and it looks doable
> > but I probably could not make it look presentable to my wife sitting on a
> shelf.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> > On Behalf Of paul swed
> > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:34 AM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...
> >
> > Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
> > Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
> > reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the
> > system locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then
> > removes the carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as
> > subtracting the carrier leaving just the data. Very good design very
> > bad for PSK, since the carrier no longer has a relationship.
> > Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so
> > what can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually.
> > Don't want to start that thread again.
> > I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace
> > the demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy.
> > But if the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics
> > of the system are available at spectracom.
> >
> > Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.
> >
> > Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock
> > into the system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that
> really is ugly.
> > Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when
> > you do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)
> >
> > Regards
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
> > > smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my
> > > bench, so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
> > >
> > > I've never really had to delve into the 8170 so I wasn't up to speed
> > > on how they derived the data from the carrier prior to the new PSK
> > > format.  I was under the misunderstanding that it was strictly from
> > > amplitude variation.  I guess it is, except for the manner in which
> > > they determine the changes.
> > >
> > > Please tell me about the "d-psk-r" you mentioned.  Also do you know
> > > the times of day WWVB reverts to the old method and for how long?
> > > I'll have to go to their site and see.
> > >
> > > Burt, K6OQK
> > >
> > > At 04:46 PM 6/12/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
> > >
> > >> Burt
> > >> One other tidbit the phase mod will exactly cause what you see.
> > >> Spectracom used phase tracking to demodulate the AM time signal.
> > >> Thats why its nuts.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:49 PM, paul swed 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Burt
> > >> > There is nothing wrong with your 8170. WWVB no longer allows it
> > >> > to work correctly because of the phase modulation. They went to
> > >> > all psk about 1 month ago. They had been reverting back twice a
> > >> > day for things like the 8170.
> > >> > So the ole 8170 is dead.
> > >> > You need to build something like the d-psk-r to get it going
> > >> > though I
> > >> have
> > >> > not had time to actually add the am phase flipper precisely for
> > >

[time-nuts] Neat little cesium box

[Gregory Muir]

Am looking at a small cesium standard for a proposed client project:

http://synreference.com/frequency-references/cesium-reference/item/37-portable-battery-powered-reference.html

Greg 


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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[J. L. Trantham]

Paul,

Having an 'engineering' mind set, it's all about form and function.
However, my wife and daughter being Interior Designers, it's all about
presentation.  Unfortunately, selling is not my long suit. 

However, as a 'modern art' piece, I might have a chance. :^)

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:37 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

Joe
Thats really a silly statement. The issue is this, we tech types put things
in rows and columns. But true artists use dead bug style with lots of wire
and parts flying everyplace.
Put the whole glob in a picture frame and you have a seriously worthy piece
of art. How could your wife complain? Plus you get time out of it. Its all
about how you sell it.
Regards
Paul


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:32 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> In a slightly different direction, are there any commercially 
> available 'PSK Compliant Atomic Clocks' out there for those of us used 
> to looking at the 'correct time'?
>
> Also, what, exactly, was the advantage of changing modulation formats?
>  That
> 'killed' all the existing 'Atomic Clocks'?
>
> I have looked at the Costas Loop article by Paul and it looks doable 
> but I probably could not make it look presentable to my wife sitting on a
shelf.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] 
> On Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:34 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...
>
> Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
> Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply 
> reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the 
> system locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then 
> removes the carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as 
> subtracting the carrier leaving just the data. Very good design very 
> bad for PSK, since the carrier no longer has a relationship.
> Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so 
> what can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. 
> Don't want to start that thread again.
> I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace 
> the demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. 
> But if the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics 
> of the system are available at spectracom.
>
> Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.
>
> Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock 
> into the system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that
really is ugly.
> Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when 
> you do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)
>
> Regards
> Paul.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a 
> > smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my 
> > bench, so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
> >
> > I've never really had to delve into the 8170 so I wasn't up to speed 
> > on how they derived the data from the carrier prior to the new PSK 
> > format.  I was under the misunderstanding that it was strictly from 
> > amplitude variation.  I guess it is, except for the manner in which 
> > they determine the changes.
> >
> > Please tell me about the "d-psk-r" you mentioned.  Also do you know 
> > the times of day WWVB reverts to the old method and for how long?
> > I'll have to go to their site and see.
> >
> > Burt, K6OQK
> >
> > At 04:46 PM 6/12/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
> >
> >> Burt
> >> One other tidbit the phase mod will exactly cause what you see.
> >> Spectracom used phase tracking to demodulate the AM time signal.
> >> Thats why its nuts.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:49 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Burt
> >> > There is nothing wrong with your 8170. WWVB no longer allows it 
> >> > to work correctly because of the phase modulation. They went to 
> >> > all psk about 1 month ago. They had been reverting back twice a 
> >> > day for things like the 8170.
> >> > So the ole 8170 is dead.
> >> > You need to build something like the d-psk-r to get it going 
> >> > though I
> >> have
> >> > not had time to actually add the am phase flipper precisely for 
> >> > the
> >> likes
> >> > of a 8170. I have one also.
> >> > Sorry
> >> > Paul
> >> > WB8TSL
> >> >>
> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> My good old Spectracom 8170 is not setting time.  I don't use it 
> >> >> for frequency, just as a clock for my Hazetorium.  I live about 
> >> >> 20 minut

Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[paul swed]

Joe
Thats really a silly statement. The issue is this, we tech types put things
in rows and columns. But true artists use dead bug style with lots of wire
and parts flying everyplace.
Put the whole glob in a picture frame and you have a seriously worthy piece
of art. How could your wife complain? Plus you get time out of it. Its all
about how you sell it.
Regards
Paul


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:32 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> In a slightly different direction, are there any commercially available
> 'PSK
> Compliant Atomic Clocks' out there for those of us used to looking at the
> 'correct time'?
>
> Also, what, exactly, was the advantage of changing modulation formats?
>  That
> 'killed' all the existing 'Atomic Clocks'?
>
> I have looked at the Costas Loop article by Paul and it looks doable but I
> probably could not make it look presentable to my wife sitting on a shelf.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:34 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...
>
> Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
> Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
> reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
> locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes the
> carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the carrier
> leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK, since the carrier
> no longer has a relationship.
> Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so what
> can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. Don't
> want
> to start that thread again.
> I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace the
> demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. But if
> the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics of the system
> are available at spectracom.
>
> Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.
>
> Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into the
> system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that really is ugly.
> Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when you
> do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)
>
> Regards
> Paul.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
> > smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my bench,
> > so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
> >
> > I've never really had to delve into the 8170 so I wasn't up to speed
> > on how they derived the data from the carrier prior to the new PSK
> > format.  I was under the misunderstanding that it was strictly from
> > amplitude variation.  I guess it is, except for the manner in which
> > they determine the changes.
> >
> > Please tell me about the "d-psk-r" you mentioned.  Also do you know
> > the times of day WWVB reverts to the old method and for how long?
> > I'll have to go to their site and see.
> >
> > Burt, K6OQK
> >
> > At 04:46 PM 6/12/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
> >
> >> Burt
> >> One other tidbit the phase mod will exactly cause what you see.
> >> Spectracom used phase tracking to demodulate the AM time signal.
> >> Thats why its nuts.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:49 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Burt
> >> > There is nothing wrong with your 8170. WWVB no longer allows it to
> >> > work correctly because of the phase modulation. They went to all
> >> > psk about 1 month ago. They had been reverting back twice a day for
> >> > things like the 8170.
> >> > So the ole 8170 is dead.
> >> > You need to build something like the d-psk-r to get it going though
> >> > I
> >> have
> >> > not had time to actually add the am phase flipper precisely for the
> >> likes
> >> > of a 8170. I have one also.
> >> > Sorry
> >> > Paul
> >> > WB8TSL
> >> >>
> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> My good old Spectracom 8170 is not setting time.  I don't use it
> >> >> for frequency, just as a clock for my Hazetorium.  I live about 20
> >> >> minutes north of downtown Los Angles in Glendale.  The antenna I'm
> >> >> using is the Ferrite Rod loop in PVC that came with the 8170.
> >> >> It's located on my
> >> back
> >> >> porch just laying on the floor with its maximum pickup direction
> >> towards
> >> >> Boulder, Colorado.  It has worked reliably for many years in that
> >> location.
> >> >>
> >> >> The symptoms are...
> >>
> >
> > Burt I. Weiner Associates
> > Broadcast Technical Services
> > Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> > b...@att.net
> > www.biwa.cc
> > K6OQK
> > __**_
> > time-nuts m

Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Azelio Boriani]

Ah, well, now I'm not able to compute what impact can have this
"windowing" of the samples... maybe that just concatenating the
buffers' content is perfectly equivalent to have a continuous stream
of samples (for noise measurement only, of course). If the desired
noise band can fit into one buffer and the statistic properties don't
change from buffer to buffer then I think it is OK to concatenate or
use just one full buffer of samples. I think that problems can arise
only when trying to look very close to the carrier where more than one
full buffer must be available to measure the "slowness" of the noise.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Stefan Heinzmann
 wrote:
> Azelio Boriani wrote:
>>
>> The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
>> samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
>> time.
>
> Does that matter for phase noise measurements? Doesn't that just make the
> measurement take correspondingly more time?
>
> Cheers
> Stefan
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...(WWVB Clock)

[J. L. Trantham]

In a slightly different direction, are there any commercially available 'PSK
Compliant Atomic Clocks' out there for those of us used to looking at the
'correct time'?

Also, what, exactly, was the advantage of changing modulation formats?  That
'killed' all the existing 'Atomic Clocks'?

I have looked at the Costas Loop article by Paul and it looks doable but I
probably could not make it look presentable to my wife sitting on a shelf.

Thanks.

Joe

-Original Message- 
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:34 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes the
carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the carrier
leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK, since the carrier
no longer has a relationship.
Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so what
can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. Don't want
to start that thread again.
I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace the
demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. But if
the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics of the system
are available at spectracom.

Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.

Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into the
system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that really is ugly.
Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when you
do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)

Regards
Paul.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a 
> smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my bench, 
> so I suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
>
> I've never really had to delve into the 8170 so I wasn't up to speed 
> on how they derived the data from the carrier prior to the new PSK 
> format.  I was under the misunderstanding that it was strictly from 
> amplitude variation.  I guess it is, except for the manner in which 
> they determine the changes.
>
> Please tell me about the "d-psk-r" you mentioned.  Also do you know 
> the times of day WWVB reverts to the old method and for how long?  
> I'll have to go to their site and see.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
> At 04:46 PM 6/12/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
>
>> Burt
>> One other tidbit the phase mod will exactly cause what you see.
>> Spectracom used phase tracking to demodulate the AM time signal. 
>> Thats why its nuts.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:49 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>>
>> > Burt
>> > There is nothing wrong with your 8170. WWVB no longer allows it to 
>> > work correctly because of the phase modulation. They went to all 
>> > psk about 1 month ago. They had been reverting back twice a day for 
>> > things like the 8170.
>> > So the ole 8170 is dead.
>> > You need to build something like the d-psk-r to get it going though 
>> > I
>> have
>> > not had time to actually add the am phase flipper precisely for the
>> likes
>> > of a 8170. I have one also.
>> > Sorry
>> > Paul
>> > WB8TSL
>> >>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>> >
>> >> My good old Spectracom 8170 is not setting time.  I don't use it 
>> >> for frequency, just as a clock for my Hazetorium.  I live about 20 
>> >> minutes north of downtown Los Angles in Glendale.  The antenna I'm 
>> >> using is the Ferrite Rod loop in PVC that came with the 8170.  
>> >> It's located on my
>> back
>> >> porch just laying on the floor with its maximum pickup direction
>> towards
>> >> Boulder, Colorado.  It has worked reliably for many years in that
>> location.
>> >>
>> >> The symptoms are...
>>
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** 
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts fo/time-nuts>
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Stefan Heinzmann]

Azelio Boriani wrote:

The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
time.
Does that matter for phase noise measurements? Doesn't that just make 
the measurement take correspondingly more time?


Cheers
Stefan

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Re: [time-nuts] Spectracom 8170 Time of Day grief...

[paul swed]

Burt search time nuts its all there. Its not a kit by any means.
Spectracom did a very good job. To good, though in reality they simply
reused the phase tracking rcvr from other units. Essentially the system
locks to the stable carrier creating a local replica and then removes the
carrier recovering just the AM. Or think of it as subtracting the carrier
leaving just the data. Very good design very bad for PSK, since the carrier
no longer has a relationship.
Nist and spectracom did put notices and such out for over a year, so what
can you say. Though we all have lots of strong opinions actually. Don't
want to start that thread again.
I have often thought and will spend no time doing it. Simply replace the
demod with a diode detector. Now its not actually quite that easy. But if
the only thing I had was a 8170 what the heck. The schematics of the system
are available at spectracom.

Near as I can tell the 8170 would run about 2 days on a fix.

Off to seriously sleazzy land. You could always bugger a gps clock into the
system adapting GPS time to local time by a micro. But that really is ugly.
Though you end up with those nice clock digits working again. Hey when you
do that send me the old rcvr parts. ;-)

Regards
Paul.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> U... What a revolting development this is.  My 9150-52054 have a
> smaller readout out that I can't see without climbing up on my bench, so I
> suppose I will no longer know what time it is.
>
> I've never really had to delve into the 8170 so I wasn't up to speed on
> how they derived the data from the carrier prior to the new PSK format.  I
> was under the misunderstanding that it was strictly from amplitude
> variation.  I guess it is, except for the manner in which they determine
> the changes.
>
> Please tell me about the "d-psk-r" you mentioned.  Also do you know the
> times of day WWVB reverts to the old method and for how long?  I'll have to
> go to their site and see.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
> At 04:46 PM 6/12/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
>
>> Burt
>> One other tidbit the phase mod will exactly cause what you see.
>> Spectracom used phase tracking to demodulate the AM time signal. Thats why
>> its nuts.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:49 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>>
>> > Burt
>> > There is nothing wrong with your 8170. WWVB no longer allows it to work
>> > correctly because of the phase modulation. They went to all psk about 1
>> > month ago. They had been reverting back twice a day for things like the
>> > 8170.
>> > So the ole 8170 is dead.
>> > You need to build something like the d-psk-r to get it going though I
>> have
>> > not had time to actually add the am phase flipper precisely for the
>> likes
>> > of a 8170. I have one also.
>> > Sorry
>> > Paul
>> > WB8TSL
>> >>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>> >
>> >> My good old Spectracom 8170 is not setting time.  I don't use it for
>> >> frequency, just as a clock for my Hazetorium.  I live about 20 minutes
>> >> north of downtown Los Angles in Glendale.  The antenna I'm using is the
>> >> Ferrite Rod loop in PVC that came with the 8170.  It's located on my
>> back
>> >> porch just laying on the floor with its maximum pickup direction
>> towards
>> >> Boulder, Colorado.  It has worked reliably for many years in that
>> location.
>> >>
>> >> The symptoms are...
>>
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Azelio Boriani]

The problem with sampling 'scopes is that you cannot get a continuos
samples stream. I think that the TimePod correlates continuously in
time.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Stefan Heinzmann
 wrote:
> Marek Peca wrote:

 My point was, that DSO is basically an ADC. Therefore, there is some
 amount of noise, nonlinearity and drift, limiting the jitter measurement. 
 Do
 you think any method can dig more information from given data than sinc()
 interpolation and zero-crossing computation?
>>
>>
>>> The cross-spectrum averaging does indeed do just that, relying on two
>>> ADCs to produce uncorrelated noise, which can be averaged out.
>>>
>>> Or am I misunderstanding your point?
>>
>>
>> Nothing against that. It depends on what noise level after averaging you
>> require. I only posted my experience with a very low-quality DSO, which has
>> 100psRMS single-shot. Using sinc() interpolation, but my point was, that I
>> suppose there is no way to obtain better single-shot performance than this.
>> To average out 100psRMS to, say, 1psRMS, it would require 10^4 edges (under
>> the assumption, that the 100psRMS is well behaved noise).
>>
>> What performance it could yield with a better scope? I hope I'll try
>> LC584AL some day, I guess it might give sth like 10psRMS single-shot...
>
>
> John Miles' Timepod uses 16-bit ADCs which by definition can't have better
> than roughly 100dB noise floor, yet it is able to measure down to around
> -170 dBc phase noise, isn't it?
>
> A scope like the RTO which I mentioned has 8-bit ADCs with 10 GS/s, which
> could for example be downsampled by a ratio of 128 to yield an effective
> sampling rate similar to what is used in the Timepod, with a corresponding
> increase in resolution. It would still not be equivalent to a 16-bit ADC,
> but as long as there are no prominent spurs, it should not be radically
> worse. And since it is not a low-quality scope, I would expect reasonable
> jitter performance from the oscillator in the scope. The oscillator used in
> the Timepod isn't going over the top, either, since the measurement method
> does not rely on that clock being pristine.
>
> Still, I may very well have overlooked something important, so tell me if my
> reasoning is faulty.
>
> Cheers
> Stefan
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[cfo]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:29:26 -0700, Bob Stewart wrote:

> I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that the UT-41 GPS
> receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why not build a GPSDO
> for my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one I bought doesn't have a
> 10KHz point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS signal from
> the chip.  

As a backup plan have a look at this one *Bay 290860812674
It has 10Khz, afaik it's the one mentioned for the Miller GPSDO.

Make sure also to get the Antenna cable that belongs to it.

CFO
Denmark

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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Stefan Heinzmann]

Marek Peca wrote:
My point was, that DSO is basically an ADC. Therefore, there is some 
amount of noise, nonlinearity and drift, limiting the jitter 
measurement. Do you think any method can dig more information from 
given data than sinc() interpolation and zero-crossing computation?


The cross-spectrum averaging does indeed do just that, relying on two 
ADCs to produce uncorrelated noise, which can be averaged out.


Or am I misunderstanding your point?


Nothing against that. It depends on what noise level after averaging 
you require. I only posted my experience with a very low-quality DSO, 
which has 100psRMS single-shot. Using sinc() interpolation, but my 
point was, that I suppose there is no way to obtain better single-shot 
performance than this. To average out 100psRMS to, say, 1psRMS, it 
would require 10^4 edges (under the assumption, that the 100psRMS is 
well behaved noise).


What performance it could yield with a better scope? I hope I'll try 
LC584AL some day, I guess it might give sth like 10psRMS single-shot...


John Miles' Timepod uses 16-bit ADCs which by definition can't have 
better than roughly 100dB noise floor, yet it is able to measure down to 
around -170 dBc phase noise, isn't it?


A scope like the RTO which I mentioned has 8-bit ADCs with 10 GS/s, 
which could for example be downsampled by a ratio of 128 to yield an 
effective sampling rate similar to what is used in the Timepod, with a 
corresponding increase in resolution. It would still not be equivalent 
to a 16-bit ADC, but as long as there are no prominent spurs, it should 
not be radically worse. And since it is not a low-quality scope, I would 
expect reasonable jitter performance from the oscillator in the scope. 
The oscillator used in the Timepod isn't going over the top, either, 
since the measurement method does not rely on that clock being pristine.


Still, I may very well have overlooked something important, so tell me 
if my reasoning is faulty.


Cheers
Stefan

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Re: [time-nuts] New to list and GPSDO questions

[Azelio Boriani]

As far as I can see from the pictures, the LED must be connected
directly to the PPS output so, yes, can be used. Removing the LED can
help in getting a full LVTTL swing.

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 5:29 AM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> Hello to the list.  I saw on K3PGP's site a mention that the UT-41 GPS 
> receiver had a 10KHz signal on-board so I decided, why not build a GPSDO for 
> my "new" HP 5334B?  Unfortunately the one I bought doesn't have a 10KHz 
> point, and the board doesn't even pull out the 1PPS signal from the chip.  So 
> I've had to switch gears and will go with VE2ZAZ's board.  I've got a 
> Motorola UT+ on order, but I was wondering about using the board's LED output 
> as a sort of low-rent source of 1PPS.  Would the short term accuracy be too 
> bad to even bother with?  Has anyone done any tests to see if the LED and 
> 1PPS signals are essentially the same signal on one of these cheapo boards, 
> or at least to find out how often the LED output is corrected?  The one I got 
> has a Prolific PL-6313 chip.
>
> Bob - AE6RV
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Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement with a scope

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/13/2013 06:00 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

My dim memory says there is some analog way to multiply the phase noise.
  What does that?   Then it might be easier to measure.


Simple, you multiply frequency. The time errors will remain but for a 
shorter cycle, so relative the carrier it has a higher value.


So, a step-up PLL might be what you want for that.

Cheers,
Magnus




On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Marek Peca  wrote:


My point was, that DSO is basically an ADC. Therefore, there is some

amount of noise, nonlinearity and drift, limiting the jitter measurement.
Do you think any method can dig more information from given data than
sinc() interpolation and zero-crossing computation?




  The cross-spectrum averaging does indeed do just that, relying on two

ADCs to produce uncorrelated noise, which can be averaged out.

Or am I misunderstanding your point?



Nothing against that. It depends on what noise level after averaging you
require. I only posted my experience with a very low-quality DSO, which has
100psRMS single-shot. Using sinc() interpolation, but my point was, that I
suppose there is no way to obtain better single-shot performance than this.
To average out 100psRMS to, say, 1psRMS, it would require 10^4 edges (under
the assumption, that the 100psRMS is well behaved noise).

What performance it could yield with a better scope? I hope I'll try
LC584AL some day, I guess it might give sth like 10psRMS single-shot...


Regards,
Marek
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