date:20170907

[time-nuts] HP-531xx calibrator nearing completion

2017-09-07 Thread Mark Sims

I finally got in my BNC connectors and 2P6T rotary switches and have the 
circuit board for the HP-531xx frequency counter calibrator just about 
finished.  This board lets you fully calibrate the HP-531xx counters including 
the "fine" time interval calibration and the channel gains.  The basic circuit 
mimics the (rather unobtainium) HP J06-59992 time interval calibrator.  

It takes a 10 MHz input,  feeds it through a sine-to square converter (using a 
biased CMOS gate) doubles it to 20 MHz using  XOR gates, divides it by two 
using a D flio flop (the curcuit also supports an on-board canned 20 MHz 
oscillator).   The board is powered by 9-12 VDC via a 2.1 mm barrel 
connector... it should be able to run from a 9V battery.

The 10 MHz Q and /Q flip flop outputs are fed to pairs of paralleled 74AC244 
buffers and reduced to +/- 0.5V signals using a series cap and two resistors.  
These 4 outputs are the  P1, P2, N1, and N2 signals generated by the 59992 
A/B/C/D switches.   These signals (along with an open circuit for the OFFSET 
calibration and a 5.000V reference voltage from an LM4040 for the GAIN 
calibration)  are fed to the counter CHA and CHB inputs via a 2P6T rotary 
switch.  

The CHA and CHB BNC's are spaced to match the connectors on the 53132A so you 
can connect it to the counter with either male-male BNC adapters or cables.
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[time-nuts] 5061A behavior

2017-09-07 Thread Bob Bownes

So I powered up my trusty 5061A a week or two ago and it's been doing
something interesting. Twice now, the CA lamp has gone out, but the alarm
lamp has not lit. Resetting the logic brings it right back, but this seems
like an improper failure mode.

The alarm lamp is fine, so that's not the issue.

Anyone ever seen this before?

Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread Alan Melia

They mostly do but the flare is over in minutes and the CME is not visible 
except in any auroral effects unless you run a magnetometer.yes that 
does take 2 days to get here so we get a warning. We are continually seeing 
reports that flares affect the power lines and there is no 
warningmixing up the two events.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "David G. McGaw" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.



It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC


On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:
The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists 
mixing up a flare with a CME ?

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Mark Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 8:50 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.



It might be coming here...

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F09%2F06%2Fbiggest_solar_flare_in_years_heading_our_way%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C41d65efbdfcd41b163e708d4f56d6fe6%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636403297765507567=sv4874WVgjHxh%2Fv94LL%2FQNT3BagNSbdjIG4TC%2FawfvU%3D=0

You might want to break out your eclipse monitoring equipment...
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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread Clint Jay

It's been interesting watching the various web SDRs the afternoon and
seeing the HF bands go silent.

They were recovering a short while ago but I will keep a corner of my eye
on them for the rest of the day

On 7 Sep 2017 5:57 pm, "jimlux"  wrote:

> On 9/7/17 8:35 AM, David G. McGaw wrote:
>
>> No, the flare also produced a CME, which is expected to reach us
>> tomorrow and may (hopefully?) trigger a G-3 class geomagnetic storm.
>>
>> http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1=07=09=2017
>>
>>
> Oh ho, ANOTHER CME... why we're just seeing bunches of them
>
>
>
> David N1HAC
>> Dartmouth College
>> Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
>> Space Physics Group
>> (Yes, I am a rocket scientist.)
>>
>>
>> On 9/7/17 10:47 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/6/17 2:46 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:
>>>
 It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

 David N1HAC


 On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

> The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
> mixing up a flare with a CME ?
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
>
>>>
>>> CME was earlier this week, whether it is connected to the subsequent
>>> flare, or it's just coincidence is a question of heliophysics.
>>>
>>> This is somewhat poorly understood - in fact, in a few years (2021 -
>>> NASA funding willing) we're going to put some satellites into orbit
>>> above GEO to look at radio emissions (Type II radio bursts) from the
>>> sun connected with CMEs.  Time-nuts connection is that we're going to
>>> be doing interferometry among the multiple satellites which means the
>>> independent recordings have to be time synchronized for processing.
>>> We're planning on using GPS satellites on the "other side" of the
>>> earth, grazing the limb, and a suitably stable onboard oscillator.  I
>>> don't imagine I have to explain the general timing concept to this
>>> particular crowd.
>>>
>>> The idea is that we can see more of the physics of the creation and
>>> emission of the CME, and more importantly, *where* the changes are
>>> occurring as the CME evolves.
>>>
>>> CMEs, as the name implies, occur in the corona.  Flares are tied to
>>> sunspots, and occur in the surface or deeper.  Granted, both phenomena
>>> are all tied up in twisting lines of magnetic fields, so there may be
>>> some relationship among them.
>>>
>>> I'm just learning all this heliophysics stuff - all I have to do is
>>> build, launch, and operate the satellites - Top women and men on the
>>> science team will do the physics with the data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> 2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-
>>> nuts=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C29fc25
>>> adc4e648fec06808d4f5ff77c6%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446
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>>> FD%2F1Ar85hCfBv0piIMLY%3D=0
>>>
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
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>
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> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread jimlux

On 9/7/17 8:35 AM, David G. McGaw wrote:

No, the flare also produced a CME, which is expected to reach us
tomorrow and may (hopefully?) trigger a G-3 class geomagnetic storm.

http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1=07=09=2017

Oh ho, ANOTHER CME... why we're just seeing bunches of them

David N1HAC
Dartmouth College
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
Space Physics Group
(Yes, I am a rocket scientist.)

On 9/7/17 10:47 AM, jimlux wrote:

On 9/6/17 2:46 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:

It also produced a CME. Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC

On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
mixing up a flare with a CME ?
Alan
G3NYK

CME was earlier this week, whether it is connected to the subsequent
flare, or it's just coincidence is a question of heliophysics.

This is somewhat poorly understood - in fact, in a few years (2021 -
NASA funding willing) we're going to put some satellites into orbit
above GEO to look at radio emissions (Type II radio bursts) from the
sun connected with CMEs. Time-nuts connection is that we're going to
be doing interferometry among the multiple satellites which means the
independent recordings have to be time synchronized for processing.
We're planning on using GPS satellites on the "other side" of the
earth, grazing the limb, and a suitably stable onboard oscillator. I
don't imagine I have to explain the general timing concept to this
particular crowd.

The idea is that we can see more of the physics of the creation and
emission of the CME, and more importantly, *where* the changes are
occurring as the CME evolves.

CMEs, as the name implies, occur in the corona. Flares are tied to
sunspots, and occur in the surface or deeper. Granted, both phenomena
are all tied up in twisting lines of magnetic fields, so there may be
some relationship among them.

I'm just learning all this heliophysics stuff - all I have to do is
build, launch, and operate the satellites - Top women and men on the
science team will do the physics with the data.

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Re: [time-nuts] Bulova crystal oscillator

2017-09-07 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

The real fun was building those ovens, at least for the “precision” versions:

The thermostatic switches came in with a fairly loose tolerance on them. First
step was to play with a bunch of water baths to sort them out. If you wanted
something like a 0.5 C tolerance that would take a *long* time. 

Crystals got tested in a chamber for turn temperature and that data was recorded
somewhere. In some cases it’s still written on the crystal holder.

The two got matched up and run over temperature. Either the match worked or
it didn’t. If it was off, they bumped up or down one bin on the switch. 

Final step if the spec required it was to fine tune the gain / set by moving a 
tab
or screw in the vicinity of the switch. The tab or screw went to the outside of 
the
enclosure. You “moved the cold” to change what was going on. 

Lots of fun, and lots of arguments about what to do on this or that unit.

One weak point was the quality of the switch. The ones you could afford were
bi-metal. As they wore out, the set point shifted a bit. Eventually the 
contacts 
welded shut with predictable results ….That might have been 40 years later.

Bob

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I saw something very similar, and it had a bi-metal regulator.
> Simple and effective for its time, but not very good if you care about better 
> performance, as bang-bang regulation of slow rate isn't as good as the same 
> crystal could do with a more linear regulation. Never the less, it's kind of 
> nice.
> 
> Now, I wonder where that oven went, I'd love to get it running. :)
> You always learn something. :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 09/07/2017 05:30 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> The 115VAC power suggests that it dates back a ways. The 100KC frequency 
>> suggests
>> the same thing. It could easily be a 100 KHz crystal in a simple thermostat 
>> controlled oven.
>> In that case, the stability would not be anything super duper.
>> Your guess of 0.001 Hz gives a 1x10^-8 sort of number. That’s probably a 
>> good guess for the
>> set tolerance on the unit. Anything from there up to 1x10^-7 isn’t a bad 
>> guess for temperature
>> stability. Again, it’s all guesswork.
>> Bob
>>> On Sep 6, 2017, at 10:26 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have a Bulova crystal oscillator, part number 1505869-1K, model number 
>>> AMO31HP-V-1, NSN 6N5840-797-7659.
>>> The NSN tells me it is a little old and that it was a turn-in, probably 
>>> repairable at some higher level.
>>> The frequency is marked 100.00 KHz.
>>> The oscillator voltage is 30 V DC and the oven voltage is 115 VAC.
>>> It has an octal plug on the bottom with the pins marked:
>>> 1 - oven indicator
>>> 2 - A.F.C.
>>> 3 - heater power
>>> 4 - +30 VDC
>>> 5 - case ground
>>> 6 - ground
>>> 7 - heater return
>>> 8 - 100 KC output.
>>> 
>>> With the nameplate listing the frequency in KHz and the case listing the 
>>> frequency in Kc and the older NSN, it appears that this oscillator was made 
>>> for a longer period of time.
>>> 
>>> The top has two adjustments, both with a screw cover.
>>> One is freq adj and the other is output adj.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have any data on this oscillator?
>>> What would I expect the accuracy to be?
>>> The printed frequency implies, to me, that the accuracy is in the realm of 
>>> 0.001 Hertz at 100 KHz.
>>> Did I miss something here?
>>> The top also shows this to be a "Generator Reference Signal".
>>> 
>>> Any insite appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> Glenn
>>> WB4UIV
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ---
>>> Glenn LittleARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
>>> Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIVwb4...@arrl.netAMSAT LM 2178
>>> QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
>>> "It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
>>> of the Amateur that holds the license"
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Bulova crystal oscillator

2017-09-07 Thread Magnus Danielson


Hi,

I saw something very similar, and it had a bi-metal regulator.
Simple and effective for its time, but not very good if you care about 
better performance, as bang-bang regulation of slow rate isn't as good 
as the same crystal could do with a more linear regulation. Never the 
less, it's kind of nice.


Now, I wonder where that oven went, I'd love to get it running. :)
You always learn something. :)

Cheers,
Magnus

On 09/07/2017 05:30 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

The 115VAC power suggests that it dates back a ways. The 100KC frequency 
suggests
the same thing. It could easily be a 100 KHz crystal in a simple thermostat 
controlled oven.
In that case, the stability would not be anything super duper.

Your guess of 0.001 Hz gives a 1x10^-8 sort of number. That’s probably a good 
guess for the
set tolerance on the unit. Anything from there up to 1x10^-7 isn’t a bad guess 
for temperature
stability. Again, it’s all guesswork.

Bob


On Sep 6, 2017, at 10:26 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV  
wrote:

I have a Bulova crystal oscillator, part number 1505869-1K, model number 
AMO31HP-V-1, NSN 6N5840-797-7659.
The NSN tells me it is a little old and that it was a turn-in, probably 
repairable at some higher level.
The frequency is marked 100.00 KHz.
The oscillator voltage is 30 V DC and the oven voltage is 115 VAC.
It has an octal plug on the bottom with the pins marked:
1 - oven indicator
2 - A.F.C.
3 - heater power
4 - +30 VDC
5 - case ground
6 - ground
7 - heater return
8 - 100 KC output.

With the nameplate listing the frequency in KHz and the case listing the 
frequency in Kc and the older NSN, it appears that this oscillator was made for 
a longer period of time.

The top has two adjustments, both with a screw cover.
One is freq adj and the other is output adj.

Does anyone have any data on this oscillator?
What would I expect the accuracy to be?
The printed frequency implies, to me, that the accuracy is in the realm of 
0.001 Hertz at 100 KHz.
Did I miss something here?
The top also shows this to be a "Generator Reference Signal".

Any insite appreciated.

73
Glenn
WB4UIV

--
---
Glenn LittleARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIVwb4...@arrl.netAMSAT LM 2178
QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
---

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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread David G. McGaw

No, the flare also produced a CME, which is expected to reach us
tomorrow and may (hopefully?) trigger a G-3 class geomagnetic storm.

http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1=07=09=2017

David N1HAC
Dartmouth College
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
Space Physics Group
(Yes, I am a rocket scientist.)

On 9/7/17 10:47 AM, jimlux wrote:

On 9/6/17 2:46 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:

It also produced a CME. Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC

On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
mixing up a flare with a CME ?
Alan
G3NYK

CME was earlier this week, whether it is connected to the subsequent
flare, or it's just coincidence is a question of heliophysics.

The idea is that we can see more of the physics of the creation and
emission of the CME, and more importantly, *where* the changes are
occurring as the CME evolves.

I'm just learning all this heliophysics stuff - all I have to do is
build, launch, and operate the satellites - Top women and men on the
science team will do the physics with the data.

and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Bulova crystal oscillator

2017-09-07 Thread Bob kb8tq

Hi

The 115VAC power suggests that it dates back a ways. The 100KC frequency 
suggests 
the same thing. It could easily be a 100 KHz crystal in a simple thermostat 
controlled oven. 
In that case, the stability would not be anything super duper. 

Your guess of 0.001 Hz gives a 1x10^-8 sort of number. That’s probably a good 
guess for the
set tolerance on the unit. Anything from there up to 1x10^-7 isn’t a bad guess 
for temperature
stability. Again, it’s all guesswork. 

Bob

> On Sep 6, 2017, at 10:26 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a Bulova crystal oscillator, part number 1505869-1K, model number 
> AMO31HP-V-1, NSN 6N5840-797-7659.
> The NSN tells me it is a little old and that it was a turn-in, probably 
> repairable at some higher level.
> The frequency is marked 100.00 KHz.
> The oscillator voltage is 30 V DC and the oven voltage is 115 VAC.
> It has an octal plug on the bottom with the pins marked:
> 1 - oven indicator
> 2 - A.F.C.
> 3 - heater power
> 4 - +30 VDC
> 5 - case ground
> 6 - ground
> 7 - heater return
> 8 - 100 KC output.
> 
> With the nameplate listing the frequency in KHz and the case listing the 
> frequency in Kc and the older NSN, it appears that this oscillator was made 
> for a longer period of time.
> 
> The top has two adjustments, both with a screw cover.
> One is freq adj and the other is output adj.
> 
> Does anyone have any data on this oscillator?
> What would I expect the accuracy to be?
> The printed frequency implies, to me, that the accuracy is in the realm of 
> 0.001 Hertz at 100 KHz.
> Did I miss something here?
> The top also shows this to be a "Generator Reference Signal".
> 
> Any insite appreciated.
> 
> 73
> Glenn
> WB4UIV
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Glenn LittleARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
> Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIVwb4...@arrl.netAMSAT LM 2178
> QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
> "It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
> of the Amateur that holds the license"
> ---
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread jimlux


On 9/6/17 2:46 PM, David G. McGaw wrote:

It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC


On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:

The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
mixing up a flare with a CME ?
Alan
G3NYK




CME was earlier this week, whether it is connected to the subsequent 
flare, or it's just coincidence is a question of heliophysics.


This is somewhat poorly understood - in fact, in a few years (2021 - 
NASA funding willing) we're going to put some satellites into orbit 
above GEO to look at radio emissions (Type II radio bursts) from the sun 
connected with CMEs.  Time-nuts connection is that we're going to be 
doing interferometry among the multiple satellites which means the 
independent recordings have to be time synchronized for processing. 
We're planning on using GPS satellites on the "other side" of the earth, 
grazing the limb, and a suitably stable onboard oscillator.  I don't 
imagine I have to explain the general timing concept to this particular 
crowd.


The idea is that we can see more of the physics of the creation and 
emission of the CME, and more importantly, *where* the changes are 
occurring as the CME evolves.


CMEs, as the name implies, occur in the corona.  Flares are tied to 
sunspots, and occur in the surface or deeper.  Granted, both phenomena 
are all tied up in twisting lines of magnetic fields, so there may be 
some relationship among them.


I'm just learning all this heliophysics stuff - all I have to do is 
build, launch, and operate the satellites - Top women and men on the 
science team will do the physics with the data.





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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread David G. McGaw


It also produced a CME.  Read the note on spaceweather.com.

David N1HAC


On 9/6/17 5:19 PM, Alan Melia wrote:
The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists 
mixing up a flare with a CME ?

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Mark Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2017 8:50 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.



It might be coming here...

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F09%2F06%2Fbiggest_solar_flare_in_years_heading_our_way%2F=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7C41d65efbdfcd41b163e708d4f56d6fe6%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636403297765507567=sv4874WVgjHxh%2Fv94LL%2FQNT3BagNSbdjIG4TC%2FawfvU%3D=0 



You might want to break out your eclipse monitoring equipment...
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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread Mike Cook

When I saw the OP I did a quick check of my GPS receivers status. One of them, 
a Jackson Labs M2M replacement (actually a U-blox M8T) had just reset and gone 
to a 111ms offset.
Was that due to the CME?
Was it one of Murphy’s laws « Looking for problems actually creates them » ?
Or a result of Heisenberg’s principle in the macroscopic domain « You can’t 
measure something without disturbing it » ? 


> Le 7 sept. 2017 à 09:08, Andy  a écrit :
> 
>> 
>> The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
>> mixing up a flare with a CME ?
>> 
> 
> There was some of both.  SDO saw a flare, STEREO saw a CME.
> 
> Andy
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Very large X9.2 solar flare.

2017-09-07 Thread Andy

>
> The flare has been and gone!...is this another case of journalists
> mixing up a flare with a CME ?
>

There was some of both.  SDO saw a flare, STEREO saw a CME.

Andy
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