Re: [time-nuts] Helmholtz Resonator and other Maintained Oscillators

[Hal Murray]

k8yumdoo...@gmail.com said:
> The flex hose demonstration was interesting in that different regimes of
> swinging speed resulted in oscillation in different modes.  I wonder why.

It depends on the speed of the air going through the tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJ36-TlPD4

http://www.exo.net/~pauld/activities/AAAS/aaas2001.html
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/summer_institute/summer_day13music/Whirly.html


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] IEEE Spectrum - Dec 2017 - article on chip-scale atomic frequency reference

[Dana Whitlow]

I saw that about the N atom trapped inside a C60 molecule, but also
took note of the present cost of the material.  I wonder how much is
going to be required to make a good standard.

Dana


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Tom McDermott  wrote:

> There's an interesting article in the December 2017 issue of IEEE Spectrum.
>
> Researchers at Oxford U. have fabricated an atomic reference based on
> a single nitrogen molecule inside a 60-atom carbon sphere ("Fullerene").
> The cage of carbon isolates the nitrogen from external electric fields,
> and they've developed a method to also isolate it from external magnetic
> fields.
>
> They have not incorporated the material into a working standard, but have
> licensed the chemical fabrication technology to at least one manufacturer.
> The idea is to make a chip-scale atomic frequency reference.
>
> -- Tom, N5EG
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Re: [time-nuts] IEEE Spectrum - Dec 2017 - article on chip-scale atomic frequency reference

[Wayne (gmail)]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/materials/to-build-the-worlds-smallest-atomic-clock-trap-a-nitrogen-atom-in-a-carbon-cage.amp.html

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Impressive, Ulrich 
>  
> In a message dated 12/8/2017 12:41:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> tom.n...@gmail.com writes:
> 
>  
> There's an interesting article in the December 2017 issue of IEEE Spectrum.
> 
> Researchers at Oxford U. have fabricated an atomic reference based on
> a single nitrogen molecule inside a 60-atom carbon sphere ("Fullerene").
> The cage of carbon isolates the nitrogen from external electric fields,
> and they've developed a method to also isolate it from external magnetic
> fields.
> 
> They have not incorporated the material into a working standard, but have
> licensed the chemical fabrication technology to at least one manufacturer.
> The idea is to make a chip-scale atomic frequency reference.
> 
> -- Tom, N5EG
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

It might be, if it is then an upper turn in the 80C range is not all that crazy.

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Angus  wrote:
> 
> 
> That near the end of the temperature range the direction could also
> give a good indication - assuming that there is only one problem...
> 
> I think the 8600-3 is still an AT - the 8607 is SC.
> 
> Angus.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:40:08 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> One basic question - Is the frequency high or low? 
>> 
>> Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible 
>> with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
>> off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
>> the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true SC”or 
>> a 
>> “modified SC”
> .. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10 degrees
>> below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.
>> 
>> Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that is 
>> the
>> case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of 
>> range”. 
>> Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go 
>> that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing 
> .
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
>>> I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
>>> temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
>>> 
>>> Angus.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
>>> 
 
 Gentlemen,
 We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted 
 into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning 
 coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its 
 specification.
 Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the 
 operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
 Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
 isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73
 
 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The early HP’s (anything before the 10811 would not have had SC’s in them. 
Depending on this or that they either had AT’s or BT’s. 

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 4:06 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> My HP-103AR is low (the 1 MHz output reads 0.999 999 200 MHz) with the fine
> frequency adjust turned to maximum. I'm a rank amateur at this but the
> circuit diagram looks like a series-resonant (Pierce) oscillator. Looks
> like I need to replace one of the capacitors inside the oven with a smaller
> value.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 12:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> One basic question - Is the frequency high or low?
>> 
>> Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible
>> with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
>> off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
>> the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true
>> SC”or a
>> “modified SC”….. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10
>> degrees
>> below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.
>> 
>> Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that
>> is the
>> case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of
>> range”.
>> Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go
>> that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
>>> I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
>>> temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
>>> 
>>> Angus.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
>>> 
 
 Gentlemen,
 We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
>> specification.
 Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
>> details.
 Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
>> components, isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73
 
 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> -- 
> Sent from my iPad 4.
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Angus]

That near the end of the temperature range the direction could also
give a good indication - assuming that there is only one problem...

I think the 8600-3 is still an AT - the 8607 is SC.

Angus.


On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:40:08 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi
>
>One basic question - Is the frequency high or low? 
>
>Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible 
>with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
>off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
>the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true SC”or a 
>“modified SC”….. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10 degrees
>below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.
>
>Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that is 
>the
>case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of 
>range”. 
>Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go 
>that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing ….
>
>Bob
>
>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
>> I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
>> temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
>> 
>> Angus.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Gentlemen,
>>> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted into 
>>> 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning 
>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its 
>>> specification.
>>> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the 
>>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
>>> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
>>> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
>>> 73
>>> 
>>> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Jeremy Nichols]

My HP-103AR is low (the 1 MHz output reads 0.999 999 200 MHz) with the fine
frequency adjust turned to maximum. I'm a rank amateur at this but the
circuit diagram looks like a series-resonant (Pierce) oscillator. Looks
like I need to replace one of the capacitors inside the oven with a smaller
value.


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 12:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> One basic question - Is the frequency high or low?
>
> Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible
> with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
> off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
> the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true
> SC”or a
> “modified SC”….. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10
> degrees
> below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.
>
> Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that
> is the
> case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of
> range”.
> Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go
> that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
> >
> >
> > The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
> > I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
> > temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
> >
> > Angus.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Gentlemen,
> >> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> specification.
> >> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> >> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> details.
> >> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> components, isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> >> 73
> >>
> >> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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>
-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

One basic question - Is the frequency high or low? 

Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible 
with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true SC”or a 
“modified SC”….. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10 degrees
below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.

Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that is the
case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of 
range”. 
Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go 
that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing ….

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
> 
> 
> The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
> I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
> temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
> 
> Angus.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Gentlemen,
>> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted into 
>> 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning coarse/fineadjustment 
>> potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its specification.
>> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the operating 
>> voltageis at 24 VDC.
>> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
>> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
>> 73
>> 
>> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Angus]

The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.

Angus.


On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:

> 
>Gentlemen,
>We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted into 
>5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning coarse/fineadjustment 
>potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its specification.
>Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the operating 
>voltageis at 24 VDC.
>Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
>Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
>isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
>73
>
>Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The big deal with the BVA is that the blank is “isolated” from the mount by a 
set of slots 
in the blank edge. That lets them achieve single plane stress isolation. The 
intent is to 
reduce the impact of holder stress as part of aging. Moving the electrodes off 
of the 
blank is intended to reduce the stress effects of the thermal mismatch between 
the electrode
and the quartz. 

There are still *plenty* of reasons for the resonator to age, so no, this does 
not take aging
out of the picture.

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:05 PM, Tom Knox  wrote:
> 
> Happy Holidays Magnus!  What I was wondering was that the BVA is somewhat 
> unique since other oscillators have metal directly deposited over the quartz 
> resonator, where the BVA is capacitive coupled. I was wondering if that made 
> the quartz age less if at all.
> 
> Cheers;
> 
> Thomas Knox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: time-nuts  on behalf of Magnus Danielson 
> 
> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 11:32 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3
> 
> Hi,
> 
> There is sources of drift all over the place.
> 
> The crystal has drift in it, the oscillator core has sources of drift.
> 
> Already within a crystal there is a bunch of sources. Some can
> compensate each other.
> 
> Improvements in production have reduced effects, but there is always
> something that drifts, somewhat.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 12/08/2017 06:27 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
>> Hi All;
>> 
>> Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?
>> 
>> Happy-Merry;
>> 
>> Thomas Knox
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 
>> 
>> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
>> adjust it by
>> just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 
>> ppm, but
>> the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
>> crystal.
>> The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
>> series with
>> the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
>> down quite
>> a bit….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
>>> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
>>> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, 
>>> but should maybe take a look.
>>> 
>>> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
>>> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
>>> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
>>> quality time to fix it.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
 I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
 It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
 That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot 
 arrangement.
 That sounds ugly.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> Hi
> 
> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
> has simply drifted
> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> tuning device once
> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
> the coarse tune or in
> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
> things back on
> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Gentlemen,
>> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> specification.
>> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
>> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> details.
>> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
>> 73
>> 
>> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com

Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Assuming it’s a unit with a 60C upper end temperature and that the 80C is the 
oven
temperature, that seems about right. The chart in the data sheet runs from 77C 
to 
89 C. 

If it was a conventional / old style 5 MHz 5th overtone AT cut crystal the Q of 
the resonator 
would be up around 5 million on a properly done part. That can happen one of 
two basic
ways. You can have a really low Rm or a really low Cm (of course it can. be a 
bit of both…).
If you happen to be in the “really low Rm regime, the tuning of the crystal 
isn’t going to be
any more crazy than one with much lower Q (and the same Cm). Yes, Co and the 
finish point
get in there as well ….

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 1:35 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> What about 80 C is that normal for an 8600?
> Bert Kehren
> 
> 
> In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:32:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> jn6...@gmail.com writes:
> 
> My  HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
> to  take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring  the
> frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the  same
> problem.
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul  swed  wrote:
> 
>> I took a quick look at the  spec sheet.
>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would  actually be a pot.
>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or  a pot on pot
>> arrangement.
>> That sounds ugly.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at  10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> It is quite possible that nothing is actually  broken and that the 
> crystal
>>> has simply drifted
>>> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>>> tuning device once
>>> the package is open. I would bet you will  find a selected capacitor
>> across
>>> the coarse tune or  in
>>> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap  should 
> bring
>>> things back on
>>> frequency. I would avoid  changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall  via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
 
 
 Gentlemen,
 We have  an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be 
> adjusted
>>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto  
> its
>>> specification.
 Oven temperature is about +  80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>>> operating voltageis at 24  VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis  datasheets w/o any
>>> details.
 Before I take it  apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
>> components,
>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73
 
 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the  instructions there.
>> 
> -- 
> Sent from my iPad  4.
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Tom Knox]

Happy Holidays Magnus!  What I was wondering was that the BVA is somewhat 
unique since other oscillators have metal directly deposited over the quartz 
resonator, where the BVA is capacitive coupled. I was wondering if that made 
the quartz age less if at all.

Cheers;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Magnus Danielson 

Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 11:32 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

Hi,

There is sources of drift all over the place.

The crystal has drift in it, the oscillator core has sources of drift.

Already within a crystal there is a bunch of sources. Some can
compensate each other.

Improvements in production have reduced effects, but there is always
something that drifts, somewhat.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 06:27 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> Hi All;
>
> Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?
>
> Happy-Merry;
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> 
> From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 
> 
> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3
>
> Hi
>
> One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
> adjust it by
> just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 
> ppm, but
> the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
> crystal.
> The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
> series with
> the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
> down quite
> a bit….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
>> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
>> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but 
>> should maybe take a look.
>>
>> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
>> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
>> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
>> quality time to fix it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
>>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
>>> That sounds ugly.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
 Hi

 It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
 has simply drifted
 outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
 tuning device once
 the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
 the coarse tune or in
 series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
 things back on
 frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.

 Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
 time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gentlemen,
> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
 into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
 coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
 specification.
> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
 operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
 details.
> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
 isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> 73
>
> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Enterprises
www.febo.com
time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and 
frequency 

Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[paul swed]

Berts right about the 80C that seems high. But when I looked at the spec
sheet no details.
Regards
Paul

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> What about 80 C is that normal for an 8600?
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:32:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jn6...@gmail.com writes:
>
> My  HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
> to  take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring  the
> frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the  same
> problem.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul  swed  wrote:
>
> > I took a quick look at the  spec sheet.
> > It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would  actually be a pot.
> > That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or  a pot on pot
> > arrangement.
> > That sounds ugly.
> >  Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at  10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > >  Hi
> > >
> > > It is quite possible that nothing is actually  broken and that the
> crystal
> > > has simply drifted
> > >  outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> >  > tuning device once
> > > the package is open. I would bet you will  find a selected capacitor
> > across
> > > the coarse tune or  in
> > > series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap  should
> bring
> > > things back on
> > > frequency. I would avoid  changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> > >
> > >  Bob
> > >
> > > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall  via time-nuts <
> > > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> > >  >
> > > >
> > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > We have  an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be
> adjusted
> > >  into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> > >  coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto
> its
> > > specification.
> > > > Oven temperature is about +  80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> > > operating voltageis at 24  VDC.
> > > > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis  datasheets w/o any
> > > details.
> > > > Before I take it  apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> > components,
> > >  isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > > > 73
> > >  >
> > > > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > > >  ___
> > > > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >  > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > >  ___
> > > time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >  > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> >  ___
> > time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions there.
> >
> --
> Sent from my iPad  4.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] IEEE Spectrum - Dec 2017 - article on chip-scale atomic frequency reference

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

Impressive, Ulrich 
 
In a message dated 12/8/2017 12:41:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tom.n...@gmail.com writes:

 
 There's an interesting article in the December 2017 issue of IEEE Spectrum.

Researchers at Oxford U. have fabricated an atomic reference based on
a single nitrogen molecule inside a 60-atom carbon sphere ("Fullerene").
The cage of carbon isolates the nitrogen from external electric fields,
and they've developed a method to also isolate it from external magnetic
fields.

They have not incorporated the material into a working standard, but have
licensed the chemical fabrication technology to at least one manufacturer.
The idea is to make a chip-scale atomic frequency reference.

-- Tom, N5EG
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bert Kehren via time-nuts]

What about 80 C is that normal for an 8600?
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 12/8/2017 11:32:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
jn6...@gmail.com writes:

My  HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
to  take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring  the
frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the  same
problem.

Jeremy


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul  swed  wrote:

> I took a quick look at the  spec sheet.
> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would  actually be a pot.
> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or  a pot on pot
> arrangement.
> That sounds ugly.
>  Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at  10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> >  Hi
> >
> > It is quite possible that nothing is actually  broken and that the 
crystal
> > has simply drifted
> >  outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>  > tuning device once
> > the package is open. I would bet you will  find a selected capacitor
> across
> > the coarse tune or  in
> > series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap  should 
bring
> > things back on
> > frequency. I would avoid  changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> >
> >  Bob
> >
> > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall  via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> >  >
> > >
> > > Gentlemen,
> > > We have  an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be 
adjusted
> >  into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> >  coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto  
its
> > specification.
> > > Oven temperature is about +  80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> > operating voltageis at 24  VDC.
> > > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis  datasheets w/o any
> > details.
> > > Before I take it  apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> components,
> >  isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > > 73
> >  >
> > > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > >  ___
> > > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>  > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >  ___
> > time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>  > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>  ___
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
-- 
Sent from my iPad  4.
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

There is sources of drift all over the place.

The crystal has drift in it, the oscillator core has sources of drift.

Already within a crystal there is a bunch of sources. Some can 
compensate each other.


Improvements in production have reduced effects, but there is always 
something that drifts, somewhat.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 06:27 PM, Tom Knox wrote:

Hi All;

Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?

Happy-Merry;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 

Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

Hi

One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
adjust it by
just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 ppm, 
but
the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
crystal.
The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
series with
the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
down quite
a bit….

Bob


On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

Hi,

Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I have 
for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and potentially 
find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but should maybe 
take a look.

However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very low 
phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The offset 
error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent quality time 
to fix it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:

I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
That sounds ugly.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
has simply drifted
outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
tuning device once
the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
the coarse tune or in
series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
things back on
frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.

Bob


On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <

time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:



Gentlemen,
We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted

into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
specification.

Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the

operating voltageis at 24 VDC.

Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any

details.

Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,

isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?

73

Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
___
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frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior 
postings to ...



and follow the instructions there.

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and follow the instructions there.


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[time-nuts] IEEE Spectrum - Dec 2017 - article on chip-scale atomic frequency reference

[Tom McDermott]

There's an interesting article in the December 2017 issue of IEEE Spectrum.

Researchers at Oxford U. have fabricated an atomic reference based on
a single nitrogen molecule inside a 60-atom carbon sphere ("Fullerene").
The cage of carbon isolates the nitrogen from external electric fields,
and they've developed a method to also isolate it from external magnetic
fields.

They have not incorporated the material into a working standard, but have
licensed the chemical fabrication technology to at least one manufacturer.
The idea is to make a chip-scale atomic frequency reference.

-- Tom, N5EG
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[jimlux]

On 12/8/17 9:29 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi,

The unloaded Q is above 3 million, which is another way to measure how 
unusual these are.


If I had schematics I would be more inclined to do something.






However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, 
but very low phase noise and high stability source as reference for 
measurement. The offset error is less of a concern then, so that is 
why I have not spent quality time to fix it.





Don't people *want* a nice quiet oscillator with a slight offset, that 
way you're already set up for the DMTD measurement.


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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

The unloaded Q is above 3 million, which is another way to measure how 
unusual these are.


If I had schematics I would be more inclined to do something.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 05:58 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
adjust it by
just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 ppm, 
but
the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
crystal.
The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
series with
the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
down quite
a bit….

Bob


On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

Hi,

Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I have 
for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and potentially 
find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but should maybe 
take a look.

However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very low 
phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The offset 
error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent quality time 
to fix it.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:

I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
That sounds ugly.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
has simply drifted
outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
tuning device once
the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
the coarse tune or in
series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
things back on
frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.

Bob


On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <

time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:



Gentlemen,
We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted

into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
specification.

Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the

operating voltageis at 24 VDC.

Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any

details.

Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,

isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?

73

Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Tom Knox]

Hi All;

Is the "Aging" generally related to the quartz, or other components?

Happy-Merry;

Thomas Knox




From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 

Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 9:58 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

Hi

One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
adjust it by
just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 ppm, 
but
the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
crystal.
The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
series with
the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
down quite
a bit….

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but 
> should maybe take a look.
>
> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
> quality time to fix it.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
>> That sounds ugly.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
>>> has simply drifted
>>> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>>> tuning device once
>>> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
>>> the coarse tune or in
>>> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
>>> things back on
>>> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
 On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:


 Gentlemen,
 We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
>>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
>>> specification.
 Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
>>> details.
 Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73

 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

One risk is that the oscillator may have drifted further than one can easily 
adjust it by
just changing a select cap. That seems silly when we are talking about < 1 ppm, 
but 
the 8600 is an unusual OCXO. The electrodes BVA is not your run of the mill 
crystal.
The “air gap” (actually a gap in vacuum) puts a pretty small capacitance in 
series with
the normal crystal equivalent circuit. That cuts the practical tuning range 
down quite
a bit….

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:44 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as I 
> have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
> potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, but 
> should maybe take a look.
> 
> However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but very 
> low phase noise and high stability source as reference for measurement. The 
> offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why I have not spent 
> quality time to fix it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:
>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
>> That sounds ugly.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
>>> has simply drifted
>>> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
>>> tuning device once
>>> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
>>> the coarse tune or in
>>> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
>>> things back on
>>> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
 
 
 Gentlemen,
 We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
>>> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
>>> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
>>> specification.
 Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
>>> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
 Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
>>> details.
 Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
>>> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
 73
 
 Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Many include a EFC offset pot, but when you go out of range on that, as 
I have for one of mine, here is no real option execept pop the lid and 
potentially find a cap or change a cap. I have not seen any as I recall, 
but should maybe take a look.


However, the value for me is not to have it as sharp 5 MHz source, but 
very low phase noise and high stability source as reference for 
measurement. The offset error is less of a concern then, so that is why 
I have not spent quality time to fix it.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 12/08/2017 04:52 PM, paul swed wrote:

I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
That sounds ugly.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:


Hi

It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
has simply drifted
outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
tuning device once
the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
the coarse tune or in
series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
things back on
frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.

Bob


On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <

time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:



Gentlemen,
We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted

into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
specification.

Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the

operating voltageis at 24 VDC.

Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any

details.

Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,

isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?

73

Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

These days there is really no reason at all to play with silver mica caps in
an oscillator. A very normal ceramic NPO will do just as well. It also will 
be cheaper / easier to find. If you want to go exotic, go for glass or 
porcelain 
caps. It is pretty unlikely you will find them in a surplus OCXO. No real need
to stock them up as spares …..

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 11:38 AM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> I have also done this to older oscillators and it works.
> When you look at the caps in the unit, if you are lucky somehow you may be
> able to see what type they are.
> Yes silver mica but there are various qualities and tempco's.
> Try to match the quality if at all possible.
> Otherwise guess.
> Good luck and its not the worst issue you will run into.
> Just maybe thats why you obtained the oscillator in the first place.
> Hey bad stuff is my friend.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
>> My HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
>> to take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring the
>> frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the same
>> problem.
>> 
>> Jeremy
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul swed  wrote:
>> 
>>> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
>>> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
>>> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot
>>> arrangement.
>>> That sounds ugly.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi
 
 It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the
>> crystal
 has simply drifted
 outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
 tuning device once
 the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor
>>> across
 the coarse tune or in
 series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should
>> bring
 things back on
 frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
 
 Bob
 
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
 time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Gentlemen,
> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be
>> adjusted
 into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
 coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
 specification.
> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
 operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
 details.
> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
>>> components,
 isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> 73
> 
> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> --
>> Sent from my iPad 4.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[paul swed]

I have also done this to older oscillators and it works.
When you look at the caps in the unit, if you are lucky somehow you may be
able to see what type they are.
Yes silver mica but there are various qualities and tempco's.
Try to match the quality if at all possible.
Otherwise guess.
Good luck and its not the worst issue you will run into.
Just maybe thats why you obtained the oscillator in the first place.
Hey bad stuff is my friend.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:

> My HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
> to take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring the
> frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the same
> problem.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
> > It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
> > That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot
> > arrangement.
> > That sounds ugly.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the
> crystal
> > > has simply drifted
> > > outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> > > tuning device once
> > > the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor
> > across
> > > the coarse tune or in
> > > series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should
> bring
> > > things back on
> > > frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> > > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be
> adjusted
> > > into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> > > coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> > > specification.
> > > > Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> > > operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> > > > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> > > details.
> > > > Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> > components,
> > > isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > > > 73
> > > >
> > > > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> --
> Sent from my iPad 4.
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[time-nuts] TDEV or phase Dev for a GPSDO?

[jimlux]

Has someone already done the work and plotted TDEV or phase Dev for a 
run of the mill GPSDO.
Particularly for a GPSDO with a non-exotic oscillator.. Or, perhaps the 
USRP flavor?


There's a fair number of Modified ADEV plots out there from time-nuts 
and others, so I can calculate it, but hey, if someone has done the work 
for me, I'm lazy.


http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/manyadev.gif for instance, tells me 
that at 1000 seconds, a  TCXO has MDEV of around 1E-9, so TDEV of about 
0.6 microseconds, and a Z3801 (MDEV 0.5E-11) has a TDEV of 3ns.


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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Jeremy Nichols]

My HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
to take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring the
frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the same
problem.

Jeremy


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul swed  wrote:

> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot
> arrangement.
> That sounds ugly.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
> > has simply drifted
> > outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> > tuning device once
> > the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor
> across
> > the coarse tune or in
> > series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
> > things back on
> > frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Gentlemen,
> > > We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> > into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> > coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> > specification.
> > > Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> > operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> > > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> > details.
> > > Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> components,
> > isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > > 73
> > >
> > > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[paul swed]

I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot arrangement.
That sounds ugly.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
> has simply drifted
> outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> tuning device once
> the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across
> the coarse tune or in
> series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
> things back on
> frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gentlemen,
> > We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> specification.
> > Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> details.
> > Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components,
> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > 73
> >
> > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal has 
simply drifted 
outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse tuning 
device once
the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor across the 
coarse tune or in 
series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring things 
back on
frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode. 

Bob

> On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Gentlemen,
> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted into 
> 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning coarse/fineadjustment 
> potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its specification.
> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the operating 
> voltageis at 24 VDC.
> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
> isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> 73
> 
> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Test WWV timecube against Cesium, Rubidium, MASER or other precision time (UT-1) metrology

[jimlux]

On 12/7/17 1:29 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:





So yes, this could be interesting for a hobbyist, but it won't add
anything to Science.
A MASER is overkill. Heck, so are Rubidium and Caesium.
A naked crystal will be rock solid compared to received WWV.

OTOH, NTP has marvelous mathematical tricks to reduce Internet
propagation delay.
A scheme to reduce varying atmospheric delay would be useful, if there
weren't much better ways to get a standard frequency.



What you are talking about is "better ionosphere modeling", which is 
something that a lot of people have spent a lot of time and effort on, 
without a lot of success.  That said, there are some real time ionograms 
out there that are fascinating to watch.  It doesn't take a very 
sophisticated receiver to receive the signals from a variety of 
ionosonde transmitters.


Juha Vierinen has a variety of interesting software:
http://www.sgo.fi/~j/gnu_chirp_sounder/

Juha also has done stuff with measuring the frequency of beacon satellites

http://www.sgo.fi/~j/jitter/web/



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[time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts]

 
Gentlemen,
We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted into 
5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning coarse/fineadjustment 
potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its specification.
Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the operating 
voltageis at 24 VDC.
Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any details.
Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken components, 
isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
73

Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
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Re: [time-nuts] Helmholtz Resonator and other Maintained Oscillators

[Dana Whitlow]

Use of a smaller opening would be the first strategy for getting higher Q.
Making sure that the walls of the vessel were solid reflectors would be
an important factor, too.

I noted that several of his sustained oscillators were basically either
relaxation or blocking oscillators, neither of which is noted for good
phase noise performance.  Even the pendulum clock mechanism
was interfering severely with the pendulum's motion- if you look
closely you can see that the pendulum bob's position versus time
function was a severely clipped waveform.

The flex hose demonstration was interesting in that different regimes
of swinging speed resulted in oscillation in different modes.  I wonder
why.  But in hearing people learning to play different musical instruments,
mostly wind instruments but also including the violin, I was once
moved to say that playing these devices the art was in making an
oscillator run in a resonator mode other than the "natural" one.

For an  interesting look at oscillating modes and a really oddball
sustained oscillator, view  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6631u7d4E0.
and/or google "mercury beating heart".  The electrochemical effect
makes the blob oscillate between a hunched-up shape and a flattened
shape.

If given time, this hunching oscillation "pumps" a degenerate parametric
oscillation between the two triangular shapes at nominally half the rate
of the original oscillation.  I first saw this demonstrated in high school,
but the demonstrator also could  not get a sustained oscillation.  I
thought about that for a while and decided to try a little external stimulus
in the form of low voltage DC from an external supply.  After a little
optimization it worked beautifully and could run for hours on end with
little of no attention, giving me the luxury of trying a range of different
blob sizes.  With different sizes I could get sustained parametric
oscillation in four different modes: 2-sided, 3-sided (as seen in the
You-Tube clip), 4-sided, and with difficulty even 5-sided.

Of course I didn't really understand what was going on at the time,
and didn't arrive at the parametric oscillation theory until years later.
BTW, I used a baking soda solution instead of a chromium-based
chemistry, and an electrode coming down from the top center, with
a large ring surrounding the mercury blob as the other electrical
connection.

Solution concentration, voltage, electrode tip height, and electrical
polarity were the parameters that had to be adjusted for best
performance.  A mercury blob about one cm across in its resting
state seemed to be a good starting point.  For polarity, use the
one that results in the blob's hunching up when the electrode tip is
gradually lowered into contact with the blob.  If the other stuff
is not too far off, it will quickly take off oscillating at that point.

I've been wondering whether this could be made to work with
Galinstan obtained from modern-day clinical thermometers,
instead of that dreaded mercury.  A worthwhile experiment
to try.

I never did get around to measuring the Alan Variance of one
of these oscillators; indeed, I didn't even hear of the concept
until years later.  It's probably not up to Time-Nuts' standards.

Dana

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:59 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

> What's the Q of a Helmholtz Resonator?  What do I do to make a high(er) Q
> version?
>
> With a narrow band filter, it might make a neat demo/toy to pull an audio
> signal out of the noise.  With 2 at different frequencies you could
> demonstrate FSK.
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Helmholtz Resonator and other Maintained Oscillators

[Hal Murray]

What's the Q of a Helmholtz Resonator?  What do I do to make a high(er) Q 
version?

With a narrow band filter, it might make a neat demo/toy to pull an audio 
signal out of the noise.  With 2 at different frequencies you could demonstrate 
FSK.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Test WWV timecube against Cesium, Rubidium, MASER or other precision time (UT-1) metrology

[Hal Murray]

martin.burni...@burnicki.net said:
> Hm, this file is part of the standard NTP source code package available
> here: http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDownloads 

Argh.  Good catch.  Thanks.

I knew that it came from the ntp package.  I thought it was stand alone but 
it seems to use some of the ntp package.

If anybody is having trouble building it, let me know and I'll try to figure 
out the recipe.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Test WWV timecube against Cesium, Rubidium, MASER or other precision time (UT-1) metrology

[Martin Burnicki]

Hal Murray wrote:
> 
> kb...@n1k.org said:
>> To get the accuracy into the 1 ms range on WWV, you would need a pretty good
>> idea of the path length between you and WWV. 
> 
> Dave  Mills has a program to compute delays.
> 
>  * By default it prints out a summer (F2 average virtual height 350 km) and
>  * winter (F2 average virtual height 250 km) number.  The results will be
>  * quite approximate but are about as good as you can do with HF time anyway.
>  * You might pick a number between the values to use, or use the summer
>  * value in the summer and switch to the winter value when the static
>  * above 10 MHz starts to drop off in the fall.  You can also use the
>  * -h switch if you want to specify your own virtual height.
> 
> What's the height difference between night and day?
> 
> This was google's first response.
>   https://opensource.apple.com/source/ntp/ntp-136/clockstuff/propdelay.c

Hm, this file is part of the standard NTP source code package available
here:
http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDownloads

Martin
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