Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?

[djl]

There's a picture of the guts in the ebay description...it's a dual 
patch antenna!

the patches seem to be trimmed to get a pattern.

On 2018-02-05 20:33, John Green wrote:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to 
indicate
it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in 
a
fancy package. That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas 
I

have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there 
any

simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?

[Tom Van Baak]

oops, sorry for the misfire.

> I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it.

For $99 I would take the risk to damage it... Or find someone with x-ray gear 
and have a peak inside. Or take it with you on your next plane flight and grab 
a photo of the TSA monitor as you pass through.

> My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?

That's a good question. It all depends on what you're using it for. If you're a 
mm survey kind of guy then mix that antenna with half a dozen name-brand 
antennae that you already own and trust. See how it stacks up in real-time or 
post-processing benchmarks. I'm a fan of measurement more than specs, so 
collect as much data as you can and share with us.

If you're a time-nut it's more complicated. It's possible you don't have 
anywhere near the kind of equipment that can detect sub-10 ns sort of bias or 
wander or noise. And then there are issues of orientation, elevation, 
linearity, thermal stability, etc. If it's not in the NGS database be 
suspicious. Ref:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2018-January/108519.html

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?

[Tom Van Baak]

> testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
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[time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?

[John Green]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to indicate
it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in a
fancy package. That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas I
have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[Alexander Pummer]

Hi Bill,

where are you located? since something like that, would be a perfect 
"therapy" for me, because I am always buying "all kind of junk" [my 
wife's opinion, but it is very close to the reality ] and after I fixed 
it and played with played with them don't know what to do with it...and 
it is true, well, if you are not to fare from me-- because of the 
shipping costs --- I am in the Bay Area in California, I could fix it 
for you


73

KJ6UHN

Alex


On 2/5/2018 8:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:

I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for 
many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our 
"nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1...@aol.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[paul swed]

I just realized there is also a 100 Hz decoder also u402.
Both use the typical open air 1 turn pots. They get cranky with age.
Regards
Paul.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi: Bill
>
> Mine needed pretty much all the electrolytic caps replaced.
> http://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but
>> not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes
>> freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>>
>> Bill, w1...@aol.com
>> ___
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi: Bill

Mine needed pretty much all the electrolytic caps replaced.
http://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

 Original Message 

I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for 
many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our 
"nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1...@aol.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[paul swed]

Bill
I see the manual is online for the GC1000.
The 1KHZ tone decoder may be suspect in that its drifted off frequency. Its
a little ne-567 chip with a pot.
ne 567s were never all that great...
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Dave Daniel  wrote:

> Hi, Bill.
>
> I have three GC-1000s, one unbuilt and two built. Both of the built radios
> have stopped showing a time display. I haven't had a chance to figure out
> what happened to them. I live very close to Fort Collins, CO.
>
> I experience power failures fairly often and when my clocks were working
> they used to take a very long time (on the order of a day) to re-sync after
> power came back on. I am wondering if the power failures might have damaged
> my radios in some way.
>
> Have you double-checked the settings on your radio against the manual, and
> have you done any experiments to see if the receiving conditions where you
> have your clock located haven't changed or are not conducive to reception?
>
> DaveD
>
>
> On 2/5/2018 9:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:
>
>> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but
>> not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes
>> freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>>
>> Bill, w1...@aol.com
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
> ---
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Jason Gardner]

As previously mentioned, those frequencies are regular centres of activity
for some of the Amateur digital modes; they are all within Amateur Radio
allocations.

As for Horsefly, I shall wait to see if anyone can correctly identify it! ;)

Jason G7RUX

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 at 17:48, Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts 
wrote:

> I have heard similar time signals at 18.1 MHz.
>
> 73 de N1UL
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> je...@hanler.com writes:
>
>
>  Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on
> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing,
> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Jerry Hancock
> je...@hanler.com
> (415) 215-3779
>
> > On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Graham,
> >
> > I am listening to one of those "time pips" on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> > 02/05/2018).
> > Frequency is 10.105.
> >
> > The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> > sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> >
> > I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018 about the same frequency but
> > later in the day.
> >
> > -Scott AA5AM
> > EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham  wrote:
> >
> >> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a
> number
> >> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
> >>
> >> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
> >>
> >> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked
> to
> >> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
> >>
> >> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with
> all
> >> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
> >> North America.
> >>
> >> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
> >> amateur radio operator playing around but it might not be, the amateur
> >> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
> >> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
> >>
> >> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
> >> researching GPS backup systems.
> >>
> >> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
> >> HF like this?
> >>
> >> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Jerry Hancock]

I saw the movie with Cusack.  Wondered the same.  Probably just ordering toilet 
paper…

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com 
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Eric Scace  > wrote:
> 
> This is a numbers station . — 
> Eric K3NA
> 
>> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> je...@hanler.com  writes:
>> 
>>  
>> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 
>> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, 
>> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Andy]

>
> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on
> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing,
> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.”  What the heck was that?
>

That sounds like a variation on the well-known (or maybe not so well known)
'numbers station'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station

Andy
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Eric Scace]

This is a numbers station . — 
Eric K3NA

> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> je...@hanler.com  writes:
> 
> 
> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz 
> running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this 
> completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jerry



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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

I have heard similar time signals at 18.1 MHz.
 
73 de N1UL
 
In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, je...@hanler.com 
writes:

 
 Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz 
running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this 
completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong  wrote:
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> I am listening to one of those "time pips" on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> 02/05/2018).
> Frequency is 10.105.
> 
> The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> 
> I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018 about the same frequency but
> later in the day.
> 
> -Scott AA5AM
> EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> 
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham  wrote:
> 
>> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
>> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>> 
>> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>> 
>> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
>> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>> 
>> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
>> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
>> North America.
>> 
>> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
>> amateur radio operator playing around but it might not be, the amateur
>> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
>> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>> 
>> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
>> researching GPS backup systems.
>> 
>> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
>> HF like this?
>> 
>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[Dave Daniel]

Hi, Bill.

I have three GC-1000s, one unbuilt and two built. Both of the built 
radios have stopped showing a time display. I haven't had a chance to 
figure out what happened to them. I live very close to Fort Collins, CO.


I experience power failures fairly often and when my clocks were working 
they used to take a very long time (on the order of a day) to re-sync 
after power came back on. I am wondering if the power failures might 
have damaged my radios in some way.


Have you double-checked the settings on your radio against the manual, 
and have you done any experiments to see if the receiving conditions 
where you have your clock located haven't changed or are not conducive 
to reception?


DaveD

On 2/5/2018 9:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:

I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for 
many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our 
"nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1...@aol.com
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Jerry Hancock]

Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz 
running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this 
completes X characters, Horsefly out.”  What the heck was that?

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong  wrote:
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> I am listening to one of those "time pips"  on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> 02/05/2018).
> Frequency is 10.105.
> 
> The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> 
> I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018  about the same frequency but
> later in the day.
> 
> -Scott AA5AM
> EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> 
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham  wrote:
> 
>> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
>> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>> 
>> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>> 
>> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
>> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>> 
>> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
>> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
>> North America.
>> 
>> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
>> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
>> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
>> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>> 
>> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
>> researching GPS backup systems.
>> 
>> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
>> HF like this?
>> 
>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Scott Armstrong]

Hi Graham,

I am listening to one of those "time pips"  on 30m right now. (1714 utc
02/05/2018).
Frequency is 10.105.

The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.

I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018  about the same frequency but
later in the day.

-Scott AA5AM
EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham  wrote:

> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>
> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>
> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>
> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
> North America.
>
> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>
> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
> researching GPS backup systems.
>
> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
> HF like this?
>
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
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>
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[time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question

[Bill Baker via time-nuts]

I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not 
used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes 
up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1...@aol.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:31 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/5/18 5:54 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
>> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
 The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
 skill-level in that area:
 
https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 
 
>>> 
>>> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching 
>>> *very*
>>> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are
>>> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are 
>>> going
>>> non-parallel.
>> That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
>> from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
>> skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
>> etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
>> to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D 
>> structures
>> by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
>> energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
>> for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.
>> Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
>> we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
>> how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
>> easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.
>> It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
>> crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
>> But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
>> to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
>> to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
>> doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures).
> 
> 
> Follow the money - or lack thereof - Folks are happy with the existing 
> technology - If I'm flying a science mission that needs a space qualified 
> Ultra Stable Oscillator - I've already budgeted my several million dollars, 
> claiming that I'll just use what we already know how to build, and I spend no 
> more proposal pages talking about it.  I certainly am not going to say 
> "instead of spending $1M/oscillator for my 2 oscillators, I'm going to spend 
> $5M on an experimental process to change how the resonator is made, and by 
> the way, it might not work"
> 
> Would using ion milling and other modern fabrication techniques lead to an 
> oscillator with *significantly* better performance or *significantly* lower 
> cost?

Consider that a reasonable budget for just the gear to finish a precision 
resonator (not the fab side) is 
in the $3 to $5 million range these days. If you include the fab process, the 
question becomes “how 
far back” you go in that process. Do you start with growing the synthetic 
quartz? If so, the budget just
goot a *lot* bigger. 

People have indeed experimented a lot with alternative fab processes. There are 
alternatives out there.
So far, the precision end of things still *looks* a lot like it used to. If you 
scratch under the surface it’s
vastly different than it was 10 or 20 years ago. It’s nothing at all like it 
was in the 70’s, let alone back 
in the 50’. 

Bob


> 
> For those users for whom this is important, research focuses on looking for 
> another qualitatively different way to get there - That's sort of what the 
> CSAC and the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) are about - the ion trap clock 
> for DSAC gives you long term performance BETTER than a USO. Although probably 
> not at a lower cost, yet, there is potential for it to be so.
> The CSAC gives you "good accuracy at low power", compared to an OCXO - less 
> than 1/10th the power.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals

[jimlux]

On 2/5/18 5:54 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:


The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
skill-level in that area:

https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 



The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are
playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going
non-parallel.


That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.

Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.

It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures).



Follow the money - or lack thereof - Folks are happy with the existing 
technology - If I'm flying a science mission that needs a space 
qualified Ultra Stable Oscillator - I've already budgeted my several 
million dollars, claiming that I'll just use what we already know how to 
build, and I spend no more proposal pages talking about it.  I certainly 
am not going to say "instead of spending $1M/oscillator for my 2 
oscillators, I'm going to spend $5M on an experimental process to change 
how the resonator is made, and by the way, it might not work"


Would using ion milling and other modern fabrication techniques lead to 
an oscillator with *significantly* better performance or *significantly* 
lower cost?


For those users for whom this is important, research focuses on looking 
for another qualitatively different way to get there - That's sort of 
what the CSAC and the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) are about - the ion 
trap clock for DSAC gives you long term performance BETTER than a USO. 
Although probably not at a lower cost, yet, there is potential for it to 
be so.
The CSAC gives you "good accuracy at low power", compared to an OCXO - 
less than 1/10th the power.



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Re: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals (was: Rakon HSO-14)

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi


> On Feb 5, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
> Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>>> The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
>>> skill-level in that area:
>>> 
>>> https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 
>>> 
>> 
>> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching 
>> *very*
>> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are 
>> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are 
>> going 
>> non-parallel.
> 
> That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
> from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
> skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
> etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
> to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
> by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
> energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
> for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.
> 
> Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
> we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
> how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
> easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.
> 
> It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
> crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
> But I have no idea how well it works.

The typical quartz resonator is operating in a mode that involves 
more than a surface wave. Much of the effort involves not just that
mode but getting rid of the vast number of similar modes that can 
pop up. As you add structure complexity, you don’t just want to “improve”
the main mode. You also want to be sure you don’t encourage any 
others …..

That all said, there are indeed people out there who *do* understand how
this all works. There aren’t a lot of them, but they are out there. From what
I’ve seen, the supply of “those who know” actually exceeds the industrial 
demand for what they know. Like it or not, precision quartz resonators is
*not* a growth field. 

Bob


> Considering that it is easier
> to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
> to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
> doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures). 
> 
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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[time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals (was: Rakon HSO-14)

[Attila Kinali]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> > The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
> > skill-level in that area:
> > 
> > https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 
> > 
> 
> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching 
> *very*
> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are 
> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are 
> going 
> non-parallel.

That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.

Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.

It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures). 



Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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