Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The gotcha with carrier phase is that it is a bit more sensitive to local 
signals 
than your ear is. Yes, a lot depends on your antenna setup and as you mention, 
just how many watts of distribution and thousands of feet of cable you are 
running 
10 MHz through. 

Bob

> On May 29, 2017, at 11:00 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs
> via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my
> dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-).
> 
> This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be
> 15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too.
> 
> I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that
> into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one
> channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could
> monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave
> from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow
> me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock.
> 
> I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this.
> I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging
> serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-).
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty
>> cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
>> setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external
>> clock
>> input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10
>> MHz.
>> Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I
>> would aim
>> at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules
>> out
>> 15 MHz :)
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>>> 
>>> During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
>>> shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
>>> using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred
>> microseconds
>>> of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
>>> 
>>> Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
>>> too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
>>> refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that
>> would
>>> let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation.
>> If I
>>> could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an
>> ionospheric
>>> effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
>>> from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
>>> location.
>>> 
>>> Tim N3QE
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts@febo.com
 wrote:
>>> 
 On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
 lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or
>> that.
 One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
>> not
 solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
 reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/
>> journal/v402/n6763/full/
 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
 allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
 allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
 results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
 else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
 crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
 Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
 clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
 don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
>> its
 plenty
 of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
 above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
 yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
>> that
 this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
>> atomic
 clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
 interest).Antonio I8IOV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and 

Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

[Tim Shoppa]

Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs
via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my
dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-).

This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be
15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too.

I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that
into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one
channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could
monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave
from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow
me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock.

I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this.
I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging
serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-).

Tim N3QE

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty
> cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
> setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external
> clock
> input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10
> MHz.
> Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I
> would aim
> at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules
> out
> 15 MHz :)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> >
> > During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
> > shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
> > using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred
> microseconds
> > of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
> >
> > Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
> > too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
> > refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that
> would
> > let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation.
> If I
> > could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an
> ionospheric
> > effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
> > from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
> > location.
> >
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> >> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or
> that.
> >> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
> not
> >> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> >> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/
> journal/v402/n6763/full/
> >> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
> >> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
> >> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
> >> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
> >> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
> >> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
> >> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
> its
> >> plenty
> >> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> >> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> >> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
> that
> >> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
> atomic
> >> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> >> interest).Antonio I8IOV
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[iovane--- via time-nuts]

As far as atomic clocks are involved, I wish to better point out where I stand, 
along with some tips and info.

- no exotic physics;   
- gravity is totally extraneous;  
- time is not involved;  
- the recorded anomalies are instrumental artifacts. The instruments responded 
to something however related to the eclipse, but not to nothing.   
- there are already known effects of solar eclipses on ionosphere, 
temperature, pressure, winds etc., but my interest doesn't go there;   
- the effects of solar eclipses on the magnetosphere are much less known, They 
might be rather local around the eclipse path. Note that the vacuum of solar 
wind is not coaxial to the optical shadow as solar wind has its own path 
following the Parker spiral (google it) whose shape is further affected by 
several variables;  
- I would recall that sudden geomagnetic variations (such as following a 
*switched off* solar wind)  might induce currents in conductors (even mu-
metal);
- along with sudden geomagnetic disturbances, also the disturbance of the 
stream of particles might be involved;  
- is is mandatory to look at EFC, as the failing component might just be the 
crystal;   
Maybe more to come.  

The above highlights that this not a time-nuts stuff, but time-nuts happen to 
own an intrument that seems to have responded sometimes in some way to the 
occurrence of a solar eclipse.   
I would stress once again that this is a unique opportunity of study.   

Antonio I8IOV


>Messaggio originale
>Da: "Magnus Danielson" <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>
>Data: 29/05/2017 10.43
>A: <time-nuts@febo.com>
>Cc: <mag...@rubidium.se>
>Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
>
>Hi,
>
>On 05/29/2017 09:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> 
>> In message <CAGP4rdnJXgFWgQuBokFdUgeC90-DP2A2cNSdwypx8vS_bTBFhg@mail.gmail.
com>
>> , Michael Wouters writes:
>>
>>> The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different
>>> kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably
>>> will be a null measurement.
>>
>> It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very
>> different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to
>> be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy.
>>
>> So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped
>> ion optical clock.
>>
>> Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel
>> Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think
>> we can trust them to be on the ball :-)
>>
>
>Somewhat south of NIST Boulder is the USNO backup clock at Shriever 
>Airforce base, just next to the GPS Master Clock. USNO has rubidium 
>fountains and hydrogen masers there, and some cesiums. If there would be 
>any significant effect, I'm sure USNO would also look at it, and also 
>compare to its Washington DC set of clocks.
>
>Honestly, I'm sceptical that there is very much going on there. We have 
>three orbital masses that will almost align, but they almost align on a 
>regular basis, it's just that the shadow of the moon just don't hit the 
>earth very often. The graviational pull of moon, sun and earth keeps 
>adding continuously so we should already be able to measure these 
>individual effects separately and not only when it happens to occur at 
>the same time.
>
>What we can expect is the effect of the shadow, which can potentially 
>affect the ionspheric TEC delay and for that matter temperature of 
>troposphere and thus delay there, and that way cause our measurements to 
>get skewed. This has however nothing to do with the clocks itself.
>
>Humans is a bit too occupied by alignment in the sky. While a nice show, 
>I'm not to impressed about its scientific significance in this case. 
>There is things to learn from most perturbations sure, but as always, 
>some reasoning to sort out what we could expect is always good.
>
>Cheers,
>Magnus
>___
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>


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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty 
cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external clock
input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10 MHz. 
Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I would 
aim
at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules out
15 MHz :)

Bob



> On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
> shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
> using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred microseconds
> of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
> 
> Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
> too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
> refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would
> let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I
> could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric
> effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
> from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
> location.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts > wrote:
> 
>> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
>> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
>> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not
>> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
>> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
>> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
>> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
>> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
>> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
>> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
>> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
>> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its
>> plenty
>> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
>> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
>> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that
>> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic
>> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
>> interest).Antonio I8IOV
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 

Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Tim Shoppa]

During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred microseconds
of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.

Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would
let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I
could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric
effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
location.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts  wrote:

> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not
> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its
> plenty
>  of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that
> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic
> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> interest).Antonio I8IOV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Mike Cook]

To my mind there may be some effect due to small variations in gravity. The 
Chinese paper is very interesting and does propose classical explanations for 
the observed gravimeter anomalies. Even so , the variations that were detected 
by them should be detectable with a sufficiently stable clock. However as the 
reported anomalies are only 6-7 micro-gal which, using a quick interpolation of 
the units wikipedia article data, is roughly equivalent to an altitude 
variation of 2-3cm.  That would probably be undetectable with anything less 
than an ion clock.  


> Le 29 mai 2017 à 09:49, Michael Wouters  a écrit :
> 
> The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different
> kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably
> will be a null measurement.
> 
> But I see the path of totality passes a bit north of NIST Boulder and I'm
> pretty sure they will notice if there is an effect ! ( I'm highly sceptical
> there is one. Searches for exotic physics over the last three decades have
> consistently turned up nothing. I did it myself at the beginning of my
> career with the "fifth force", a composition-dependent, short range
> gravity-like force. The positive results all turned out to have very subtle
> classical physics explanations)
> 
> Cheers
> Michael
> 
> On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 9:35 am, Jim Palfreyman  wrote:
> 
>> Personally I go with the Nature article. The other papers look like they
>> are anomaly hunting because they have a known event.
>> 
>> Having said that, we have two H masers at our observatory in Hobart and we
>> have a system set up to measure their phase difference down to about 0.03
>> ns. I will report back any anomaly.
>> 
>> Did We, of course, are not in the path of the eclipse, however
>> gravitationally
>> there is still an alignment. Just through the Earth.
>> 
>> 
>> Jim Palfreyman
>> 
>> 
>> On 29 May 2017 at 08:17, iovane--- via time-nuts 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
>>> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
>>> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
>> not
>>> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
>>> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
>>> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
>>> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
>>> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
>>> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
>>> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
>>> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
>>> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
>> its
>>> plenty
>>> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
>>> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
>>> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
>> that
>>> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
>> atomic
>>> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
>>> interest).Antonio I8IOV
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who 
have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 05/29/2017 09:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 
, Michael Wouters writes:


The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different
kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably
will be a null measurement.


It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very
different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to
be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy.

So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped
ion optical clock.

Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel
Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think
we can trust them to be on the ball :-)



Somewhat south of NIST Boulder is the USNO backup clock at Shriever 
Airforce base, just next to the GPS Master Clock. USNO has rubidium 
fountains and hydrogen masers there, and some cesiums. If there would be 
any significant effect, I'm sure USNO would also look at it, and also 
compare to its Washington DC set of clocks.


Honestly, I'm sceptical that there is very much going on there. We have 
three orbital masses that will almost align, but they almost align on a 
regular basis, it's just that the shadow of the moon just don't hit the 
earth very often. The graviational pull of moon, sun and earth keeps 
adding continuously so we should already be able to measure these 
individual effects separately and not only when it happens to occur at 
the same time.


What we can expect is the effect of the shadow, which can potentially 
affect the ionspheric TEC delay and for that matter temperature of 
troposphere and thus delay there, and that way cause our measurements to 
get skewed. This has however nothing to do with the clocks itself.


Humans is a bit too occupied by alignment in the sky. While a nice show, 
I'm not to impressed about its scientific significance in this case. 
There is things to learn from most perturbations sure, but as always, 
some reasoning to sort out what we could expect is always good.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[iovane--- via time-nuts]

My suspicion is just about the solar wind being switched off, which also has 
effects on the magnetosphere.  
Anyway, this very unique opportunity should not be lost.
Antonio I8IOV


>Messaggio originale
>Da: "Neville Michie" <namic...@gmail.com>
>Data: 29/05/2017 10.18
>A: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"<time-nuts@febo.com>
>Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
>
>
>Maybe there is an effect when the solar wind is switched off for half an 
hour.
>The ionosphere may shift in that time. This is a great opportunity when an 
impulse 
>is applied to the system. The switching off of the solar UV is sure to affect 
the 
>ozone layer. You will not have an opportunity to make these observations 
again for
>a long time. A good OCXO will keep time for half an hour, will the apparent 
GPS time
>show a deviation?
>
>cheers, 
>
>Neville Michie
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Neville Michie]

Maybe there is an effect when the solar wind is switched off for half an hour.
The ionosphere may shift in that time. This is a great opportunity when an 
impulse 
is applied to the system. The switching off of the solar UV is sure to affect 
the 
ozone layer. You will not have an opportunity to make these observations again 
for
a long time. A good OCXO will keep time for half an hour, will the apparent GPS 
time
show a deviation?

cheers, 

Neville Michie
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Michael Wouters]

Apologies, I didn't read the paper carefully enough. The original claim
does appear to be for a comparison of like clocks eg Cs vs Cs, with a claim
of greater effects for a comparison of clocks in and out of the eclipse
path.

Cheers
Michael

On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 8:20 am, iovane--- via time-nuts 
wrote:

> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not
> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> reports: Negative:
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/402749a0.html
> Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf
>
> http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I
> believe that the positive results were due to spurious responses of the
> atomic clocks to something else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some
> reason (e.g. jumping crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had
> been sold to China. Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I
> know, no atomic clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but
> sincerely I don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts
> community, using its plenty
>  of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that
> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic
> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> interest).Antonio I8IOV
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, Michael Wouters writes:

>The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different
>kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably
>will be a null measurement.

It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very
different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to
be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy.

So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped
ion optical clock.

Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel
Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think
we can trust them to be on the ball :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Michael Wouters]

The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different
kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably
will be a null measurement.

But I see the path of totality passes a bit north of NIST Boulder and I'm
pretty sure they will notice if there is an effect ! ( I'm highly sceptical
there is one. Searches for exotic physics over the last three decades have
consistently turned up nothing. I did it myself at the beginning of my
career with the "fifth force", a composition-dependent, short range
gravity-like force. The positive results all turned out to have very subtle
classical physics explanations)

Cheers
Michael

On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 9:35 am, Jim Palfreyman  wrote:

> Personally I go with the Nature article. The other papers look like they
> are anomaly hunting because they have a known event.
>
> Having said that, we have two H masers at our observatory in Hobart and we
> have a system set up to measure their phase difference down to about 0.03
> ns. I will report back any anomaly.
>
> Did We, of course, are not in the path of the eclipse, however
> gravitationally
> there is still an alignment. Just through the Earth.
>
>
> Jim Palfreyman
>
>
> On 29 May 2017 at 08:17, iovane--- via time-nuts 
> wrote:
>
> > On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> > lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
> > One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
> not
> > solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> > reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
> > 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
> > results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
> > else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
> > crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
> > Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
> > clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
> > don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
> its
> > plenty
> >  of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> > above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> > yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
> that
> > this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
> atomic
> > clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> > interest).Antonio I8IOV
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[Jim Palfreyman]

Personally I go with the Nature article. The other papers look like they
are anomaly hunting because they have a known event.

Having said that, we have two H masers at our observatory in Hobart and we
have a system set up to measure their phase difference down to about 0.03
ns. I will report back any anomaly.

We, of course, are not in the path of the eclipse, however gravitationally
there is still an alignment. Just through the Earth.


Jim Palfreyman


On 29 May 2017 at 08:17, iovane--- via time-nuts  wrote:

> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not
> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its
> plenty
>  of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that
> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic
> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> interest).Antonio I8IOV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow

[iovane--- via time-nuts]

On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A 
lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. One 
of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not solar 
eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting reports: 
Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/402749a0.html 
Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  
http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I 
believe that the positive results were due to spurious responses of the atomic 
clocks to something else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason 
(e.g. jumping crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to 
China. Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic 
clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I don't 
believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its plenty 
 of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the above 
mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing yourselves a large 
scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that this question is 
already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic clocks might respond 
to someting else than gravity would be of great interest).Antonio I8IOV
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