Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Attila Kinali]

Moin,

Taking this off-list as this is getting far too OT.

On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 14:20:52 -0500
"William H. Fite"  wrote:

> They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
> oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
> forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
> Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?

No, it doesn't. A Rigol might be a usable replacement if you cannot
affort a real instrument, but it far from being something you want
to rely on. Yes, a Tek scope starts from 1000$ up while a Rigol is
half or even a third of that price. But you get all kind of weird
effects when you use a Rigol. Which means you are never exactly sure
whether you see an actual effect of your device or it's just some
weirdness of your measurement equipment. 

The price of Tek/Keysight/R does not come from the parts. By far not.
It comes from the fact that they ensure that you can measure with
confidence. Half of this is done by proper design (not only schematic,
but also layout and mechanics) and by doing extensive production tests that
do check for various problems, that are not easily seen.

When it comes to instruments where analog makes up 90% of the performance
and you cannot hide problems with digital processing, then Rigol
comes to the same price as the others.

Eg the DM3058 5.5 digit DMM costs 620€, that's just actually, 40€
more expensive than an U3402A. And mind you, the specs of the DM3058
are worse than that of the U3402A.

> The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
> news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
> manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
> PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.

Definitly not. Yes, these have become basic gear you just have in an
electronics lab. But they are handled with care and you don't just buy
another if you just haven't have one at hand. Proper gear is investement.

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , Bob Camp writes:

>there is a pretty long list of companies that had a good thing
>going through the 50’s and 60’s.

That "thing" is called "the cold war" where USA poured 10-20% of the
entire federal budget into high-tech and consequent innovations.


(while claiming to be a "capitalistic market economy" :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 2/14/2016 11:20 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?



When I worked for HP/Agilent, there were countless examples of
low cost instrument prototypes developed at the central research
lab (HP Labs, and successors) that were killed by the manufacturing
divisions because they would "cannibalize sales" of the incumbent
product line.  The other excuse given was that it would "divert
resources" from the incumbent product line.  Or that the sales
force wouldn't sell it because there wasn't enough commission in it.
And we couldn't sell it direct because that would ruffle too many
feathers in the field.  I helped develop a product for which we had 
large volume purchase orders from several customers and they still 
killed it.


Rick

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Bob Camp]

HI

I can indeed think back to the 70’s and at least somewhat earlier than that. 
Without naming names (and getting 
everybody mad), there is a pretty long list of companies that had a good thing 
going through the 50’s and 60’s. 
I worked for several of them. Life was good. Big money was made in markets that 
who ever it was commanded some
insane market share. That list includes companies in the US and a *lot* of 
other places. 

Thirty to forty years later I look at the entire list and every single one of 
them was in trouble. Another ten years
later, they are gone or they are in worse trouble or they have re-organized to 
the point they have no relation to 
the original company. Each time the stories come out, it sounds like it 
happened to just one company that somehow 
“lost it’s way”. The real answer appears to be that what happened happened to 
all of them and it did so over a fairly 
short period. 

No I don’t want to get into adding names to the list. My only point is - a 
company that was great and  that is still 
here in any sort of recognizable form is doing far far better than 90+% of its 
“peers” back in the old days.

Bob 



> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Up to roughly the mid-1970s, even ordinary mortals, HP employees, could fly 
> first class if you were traveling on company business for HP and the flight 
> was longer than 3 hours. Even I, an lowly process engineer, included in a 
> shopping trip "back east" to Boston and Philly, got to fly first class. HP 
> sent five employees on this shopping trip—God only knows what it cost. That 
> was then, when HP had more cash than it knew what to do with.
> 
> J.
> 
> On 2/14/2016 4:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US government 
>> money) megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole facility bought 
>> millions more.  The local Tucson HP sales office had a salesman assigned 
>> just to Hughes. They showered us with catalogs, app notes, training 
>> programs, seminars and I even traveled a few times to attend programs 
>> elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare and hotel, but breakfasts, lunches, 
>> dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In discussing travel expense 
>> reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where every penny had to be accounted 
>> for, he said his reporting consisted of counting the money in his wallet 
>> when he left and counting it again when he got back.  The difference was his 
>> expense.
>> 
>> Wes  N7WS
>> 
>> 
>> On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
>>> I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
>>> integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site landscaping, 
>>> which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , "We're making our own 
>>> coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but made our own cabinets. We 
>>> made our own integrated circuits; I made the photomasks for those ICs in 
>>> the Santa Clara Division (02, the old Frequency Division) in building 
>>> 51-Lower, next to the line where the counters were wired. Good times, free 
>>> coffee.
>>> 
>>> Jeremy
>>> N6WFO
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

Up to roughly the mid-1970s, even ordinary mortals, HP employees, could 
fly first class if you were traveling on company business for HP and the 
flight was longer than 3 hours. Even I, an lowly process engineer, 
included in a shopping trip "back east" to Boston and Philly, got to fly 
first class. HP sent five employees on this shopping trip—God only knows 
what it cost. That was then, when HP had more cash than it knew what to 
do with.


J.

On 2/14/2016 4:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US 
government money) megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole 
facility bought millions more.  The local Tucson HP sales office had a 
salesman assigned just to Hughes. They showered us with catalogs, app 
notes, training programs, seminars and I even traveled a few times to 
attend programs elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare and hotel, but 
breakfasts, lunches, dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In 
discussing travel expense reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where 
every penny had to be accounted for, he said his reporting consisted 
of counting the money in his wallet when he left and counting it again 
when he got back.  The difference was his expense.


Wes  N7WS


On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The 
vertical integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant 
site landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was 
, "We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers 
but made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I 
made the photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, 
the old Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the 
line where the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Wes (N7WS)]

I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US government money) 
megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole facility bought millions more.  
The local Tucson HP sales office had a salesman assigned just to Hughes. They 
showered us with catalogs, app notes, training programs, seminars and I even 
traveled a few times to attend programs elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare 
and hotel, but breakfasts, lunches, dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In 
discussing travel expense reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where every 
penny had to be accounted for, he said his reporting consisted of counting the 
money in his wallet when he left and counting it again when he got back.  The 
difference was his expense.


Wes  N7WS


On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site landscaping, 
which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , "We're making our own 
coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but made our own cabinets. We made 
our own integrated circuits; I made the photomasks for those ICs in the Santa 
Clara Division (02, the old Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, 
next to the line where the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site 
landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , 
"We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but 
made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I made the 
photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, the old 
Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the line where 
the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



On 2/14/2016 10:10 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically 
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were often 
applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as packaging 
and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources much 
of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff so 
rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri


On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:


   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 

Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Scott McGrath]

When in the field and one of those cheap 'disposable' instruments fail and 
pointed questions are asked   That's when you miss the quality of the old HP 
gear   And I still use the old pre Carly gear precisely because it can be 
trusted to work in adverse conditions even though one needs to wash the data 
through a computer to get the measurement features that the new stuff has built 
in

The new gear had a name at one time we called it experimenter grade.  Much of 
the new gear these days reminds me of Eico equipment in overall build quality 

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:20 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:
> 
> They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
> oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
> forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
> Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?
> 
> The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
> news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
> manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
> PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.
> 
> I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath  > wrote:
> 
>> HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
>> integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
>> often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as
>> packaging and or hybrid  circuit design
>> 
>> Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
>> much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff
>> so rapidly and undersell them.
>> 
>> Content by Scott
>> Typos by Siri
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test
>> equipment.
>>> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case
>> of
>>> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
>>> bottom.
>>> 
>>> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
>>> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved
>> to
>>> separate the names.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave
>> Ltd) <
>>> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
  On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
>> time-nuts@febo.com
 wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
 unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
 
 I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
>> generators,
 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
 HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
>> the
 most reliable.
 
 Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
 modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
 £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
 was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
>> blow
 up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
 
 He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
 reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
 that.
 
 I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
>> and
 some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
>> than
 other decent makes.
 
 Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
 Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
>> Impedance
 analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
>> the
 forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get
>> no
 response.)
 
 There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
 Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best
>> choice to
 me.
 
 I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
 Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
 way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
 reflected in their higher resale values.
 
 At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
>> though
 modern service manuals are less so.
 
 Just my opinion.
 
 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Dr. Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts]

I personally knew Howard Vollum for many years and at one time R sold the TEK 
products in Europe ! Ulrich Rohde

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:28 PM, "Gregory Muir"  wrote:
> 
> Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
> most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and 
> reliability over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into 
> the lab and find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how 
> the "big boys" did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a 
> matter of fact, Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to 
> trump Tek's quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic 
> and mechanical aspects.
> 
> There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a 
> piece of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting 
> room and say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and 
> management that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort 
> that will not only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more 
> thought.  And it is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not 
> necessarily have the best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  
> And in smaller companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that 
> packaging engineers are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is 
> thrust upon the electronic gearheads to do their best.
> 
> As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
> Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
> not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
> professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
> unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
> tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  
> But the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling 
> is still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at 
> the present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost 
> their political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to 
> follow in the same path.
> 
> Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Alex Pummer]

Quite often it works, but sometimes it does not,
not to long time ego I had to investigate one non-linearity case with a 
high mode QAM signal, there was something, what not supposed to be 
there, the only spectrum analyzer which had enough dynamic range was one 
from Rohde,

73
K6UHN
Alex
 On 2/14/2016 11:20 AM, William H. Fite wrote:

They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?

The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

Bill



On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath > wrote:


HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as
packaging and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff
so rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri


On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test

equipment.

Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case

of

handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved

to

separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave

Ltd) <

drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:


   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <

time-nuts@febo.com

wrote:

Hi,
It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the

unreliability of HP test equipment.

There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.

I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal

generators,

15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP

the

most reliable.

Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
£1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will

blow

up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.

He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
that.

I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable

and

some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable

than

other decent makes.

Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and

Impedance

analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit

the

forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get

no

response.)

There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best

choice to

me.

I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
reflected in their higher resale values.

At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,

though

modern service manuals are less so.

Just my opinion.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[paul swed]

Totally agree. Disposable and cheap. Plus the companies don't intend to
stay in business but get picked up by some larger company
Still amazing for little you can pick up this modern gear and it happily
communicates with your laptop generally speaking.
Still like my 400lbs of test HP and Tek gear.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 2:20 PM, William H. Fite  wrote:

> They don't wonder; they know very well. But they're stuck. Consider
> oscilloscopes. Why pay for a Keysight or Tectronix or LeCroy or, God
> forbid, a Rohde & Schwarz when, for the vast majority of applications, a
> Rigol will give you everything you need at 1/N the cost?
>
> The hugely expensive, overbuilt gear that we grew up with is yesterday's
> news; that's why we can scarf it up so cheap on the 'bay. Lots of labs and
> manufacturing facilities now consider basic gear like DSOs, SAs, DMMs,
> PSUs, and sig-gens as disposable as cell phones.
>
> I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2016, Scott McGrath  > wrote:
>
> > HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically
> > integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were
> > often applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic
> as
> > packaging and or hybrid  circuit design
> >
> > Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources
> > much of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their
> stuff
> > so rapidly and undersell them.
> >
> > Content by Scott
> > Typos by Siri
> >
> > > On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test
> > equipment.
> > > Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the
> case
> > of
> > > handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to
> the
> > > bottom.
> > >
> > > It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> > > keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved
> > to
> > > separate the names.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave
> > Ltd) <
> > > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >>   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
> > time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> > >> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > >>> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> > >>
> > >> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
> > generators,
> > >> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> > >> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
> > the
> > >> most reliable.
> > >>
> > >> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair
> to a
> > >> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> > >> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen,
> which
> > >> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
> > blow
> > >> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
> > >>
> > >> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but
> the
> > >> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> > >> that.
> > >>
> > >> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
> > and
> > >> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
> > than
> > >> other decent makes.
> > >>
> > >> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> > >> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
> > Impedance
> > >> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
> > the
> > >> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally
> get
> > no
> > >> response.)
> > >>
> > >> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better
> (e.g.
> > >> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best
> > choice to
> > >> me.
> > >>
> > >> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> > >> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's
> no
> > >> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> > >> reflected in their higher resale values.
> > >>
> > >> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
> > though
> > >> modern service manuals are less so.
> > >>
> > >> Just my opinion.
> > >>
> > >> Dave.
> > >> ___
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > > 

Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Tommy Phone]

The ex-CEO of whom you speak was never over the instrument business. The 
Agilent spinoff occurred just before that reign. Many people seem to have that 
mistaken notion. 


>From Tom Holmes, N8ZM

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Gregory Muir  wrote:
> 
> Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
> most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and 
> reliability over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into 
> the lab and find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how 
> the "big boys" did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a 
> matter of fact, Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to 
> trump Tek's quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic 
> and mechanical aspects.
> 
> There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a 
> piece of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting 
> room and say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and 
> management that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort 
> that will not only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more 
> thought.  And it is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not 
> necessarily have the best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  
> And in smaller companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that 
> packaging engineers are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is 
> thrust upon the electronic gearheads to do their best.
> 
> As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
> Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
> not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
> professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
> unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
> tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  
> But the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling 
> is still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at 
> the present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost 
> their political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to 
> follow in the same path.
> 
> Greg
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Scott McGrath]

HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically 
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were often 
applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as packaging 
and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources much 
of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff so 
rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> 
> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
> bottom.
> 
> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
> separate the names.
> 
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
>> unreliability of HP test equipment.
>>> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
>> 
>> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
>> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
>> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
>> most reliable.
>> 
>> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
>> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
>> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
>> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
>> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
>> 
>> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
>> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
>> that.
>> 
>> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
>> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
>> other decent makes.
>> 
>> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
>> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
>> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
>> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
>> response.)
>> 
>> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
>> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
>> me.
>> 
>> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
>> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
>> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
>> reflected in their higher resale values.
>> 
>> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
>> modern service manuals are less so.
>> 
>> Just my opinion.
>> 
>> Dave.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Gregory Muir]

Having been in the product design world (both MIL and commercial/medical) for 
most of my life, I developed a very deep respect for HP quality and reliability 
over the years.  It wasn't uncommon for management to peek into the lab and 
find me poking around inside a piece of HP equipment to see how the "big boys" 
did their designs.  It was a wonderful learning lesson.  As a matter of fact, 
Tek was just as much in there as well but HP always seemed to trump Tek's 
quality with respect to the robustness of  both the electronic and mechanical 
aspects.

There were many times when involved in a design review than I would lug a piece 
of partially disemboweled HP test gear from the lab into the meeting room and 
say "see how it can be done?" to convince the other engineers and management 
that a product can truly be developed without considerable effort that will not 
only be more reliable but also simply be put tougher with more thought.  And it 
is a well known fact that electronics engineers do not necessarily have the 
best ideas when it comes to putting circuitry in a box.  And in smaller 
companies, there is often a belief amongst managers that packaging engineers 
are not an affordable luxury so that responsibility is thrust upon the 
electronic gearheads to do their best.

As a sidebar (with additional respects to Mr. Vollum and company), Bill and 
Dave managed to foster a very Spartan company with a life and products which 
not only greatly assisted the engineering and service communities with their 
professions but also became a model for many businesses to follow.  It is 
unfortunate that a CEO had to come along who had little understanding of this 
tradition and manage to pillage the company and leave it as it now stands.  But 
the HP tradition has persevered to a great extent and the new fledgling is 
still continuing to produce products of outstanding quality.  So I look at the 
present standing of that ex-CEO and am silently happy that they have lost their 
political bid for office given a possible fate of the whole nation to follow in 
the same path.

Greg
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Adrian Godwin]

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

>On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts"  >
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
>
> I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
> 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
> most reliable.
>
> Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
> modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
> was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
> up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
>
> He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
> reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> that.
>
> I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
> some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
> other decent makes.
>
> Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
> analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
> forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
> response.)
>
> There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
> Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
> me.
>
> I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
> way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> reflected in their higher resale values.
>
> At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
> modern service manuals are less so.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Dave.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Artek Manuals]

My bet is that the split between Medical and Test Equipment is to 
facilitate the eventual sale of one or the other division.


As for reliability I have mostly HP and Tektronix in my stable with an 
odd Racal and Boonton piece here and there. The Boontons never fail ( 
arguably much simpler) but the HP are an order of magnitude better than 
Tektronix. I suspect the medical stuff gets built with "mil-qualified" 
parts because  the customer base has a higher tolerance for the added cost


Also dont forget guys a lot of the toys we have all bought on Evil-Bay , 
etc ,,are well beyond it's design life cycle I think the youngest Item I 
have in my "collection" is at least 25 years old.


Dave
ArtekManuals.com



On 2/14/2016 6:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

Hi,

Rather, it was because Agilent was known for it's fine medical stuff
that the instrument part didn't fit in and put into a separate company.
Similarly since HP was known for its computers, printers and scanners,
the medical and instrument parts didn't fit into the HP brand.

In the process, it looks like it is loosing it's edge, which is sad to see.

Cheers,
Magnus




--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

---
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

A few clarifications:

Before 1999, HP had a Medical Division that made
equipment you saw in hospitals and a Scientific
Instrument Division that made chemical analysis
equipment used in medical laboratories (and also
other laboratories).  IIRC, both began as
acquisitions.  The Agilent spin off in 1999
started a trend of additional divestiture.  The
Medical Division was sold to Philips, so former
HP hospital monitors were rebranded Philips.
After the Keysight spinoff, the remaining Agilent
company has two main parts:  chemical analysis,
descended from the old Scientific Instrument
Division, and life sciences, which grow organically
with the invention of gene arrays

What is now Keysight underwent massive reductions
in force after the dot com bust.  Around the
same time they started off shoring the Rohnert
Park manufacturing complex to Malaysia.  The
combination of the two eliminated something like
80% of the jobs in Sonoma county.  Some sites
like Liberty Lake (Spokane) closed completely.

This was when we started to see the quality
plummet.  They lost the recipe when they off
shored.  Instruments would arrive DOA, or would
fail after a few months.  Some had annoying
problems that would come and go, and they couldn't
seem to fix them.  When Windows XP expired, there
was a big crisis to upgrade to Windows 7 that
Malaysia fumbled the ball on.  (Many years ago,
the powers that be decided to use Windows internally
in place of Unix).

I wish Keysight well, but at the time I left in 2014,
and from what I've heard since, it didn't look encouraging.

Rick

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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[John Green]

We have had mixed results with HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years. Our
experience with their repair and customer service has been less favorable.
One area where my experience has been unfavorable has been with the Genesys
software. We bought it back when it was still owned by Randy Rhea, and I
thought it was well worth what it cost. Since, we have upgraded to a newer
Agilent version and it rarely gets used. Their customer support hasn't been
helpful at all. We lost the new USB dongle and they want $1500 to replace
it. I think they, like a lot of other test equipment manufacturers, have
faced pressure from other, lower cost competitors and to maintain sales and
profit margins, they have cut corners. We have several 8712 network
analyzers that are nearing end of life. Management wants to find a cheaper
alternative. We bought a Chinese network analyzer for around $13K. It was
so weird and difficult to use, it just sat on the bench. Eventually, the
owner took it home.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

> HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
> Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
> handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
> bottom.
>
> It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
> keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
> separate the names.
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" <
> time-nuts@febo.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> > unreliability of HP test equipment.
> > > There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> >
> > I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal
> generators,
> > 15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
> > HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP
> the
> > most reliable.
> >
> > Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
> > modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
> > £1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
> > was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will
> blow
> > up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.
> >
> > He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
> > reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
> > that.
> >
> > I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable
> and
> > some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable
> than
> > other decent makes.
> >
> > Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
> > Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and
> Impedance
> > analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit
> the
> > forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get
> no
> > response.)
> >
> > There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
> > Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice
> to
> > me.
> >
> > I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
> > Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
> > way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
> > reflected in their higher resale values.
> >
> > At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,
> though
> > modern service manuals are less so.
> >
> > Just my opinion.
> >
> > Dave.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Björn Gabrielsson]

Hi,

Spent the flight back from PTTI next to a HP, then Agilent medical guy.
Aparently the medical stuff did not go into Keysight, they remain Agilent.

--

Björn

> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
> unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
> I was involved with repairing HP medical equipment for 25 years and it was
> awesome stuff. This was the same info I got from other BMET's at many
> different hospitals.
> The TCO was low as the equipment ran and ran, a lot of it 24/7. I'm
> talking about a 10 year period.
> Usually our equipment was only replaced by newer technology systems.
> Too bad it didn't apply to test equipment as well.
> Regards,
> Perrier
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 
wrote:
>
> Hi,
> It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
unreliability of HP test equipment.
> There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.

I have a friend with a fairly large lab. He must have 50 signal generators,
15 spectrum analyzers, plus plenty of other stuff. Mainly RF. Most is
HP/Agilent, but he has Rohde & Scwarz and Anritsu too. He finds the HP the
most reliable.

Also Anritsu seem to charge a lot for calibration.  A recent repair to a
modern 6 GHz Anritsu signal generator resulted in the repair bill plus
£1200 GBP (around $1800) for calibration. That particular sig gen, which
was sold for mobile phone use, has an electronic attenuator that will blow
up if a mobile phone is transmitted into it.

He used to think he preferred R signal generators to Agilent,  but the
reliability of the R has been poorer so his mind has been changed on
that.

I am sure every company has some products that have been very reliable and
some less so, but I would dispute that HP is in general less reliable than
other decent makes.

Support on HP is generally good, with the forums which are answered by
Keysight staff. (An annoying exception seems to be LCR meters and Impedance
analyzers developed in Japan. The Japanese engineers hardly ever visit the
forums so questions on LCR meters and impedance analyzers generally get no
response.)

There are instrument ranges where other manufacturers seem better (e.g.
Keithley for electrometers), but overall HP/Agilent seem the best choice to
me.

I know someone who is looking for a 20.GHz VNA. He just lost out on a
Windows based R VNA that sold on eBay for a bit over $7000. There's no
way a 20 GHz Windows based Agilent VNA would fetch so little.  This is
reflected in their higher resale values.

At least with the older stuff,, service manuals for HP are useful,  though
modern service manuals are less so.

Just my opinion.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

Rather, it was because Agilent was known for it's fine medical stuff 
that the instrument part didn't fit in and put into a separate company. 
Similarly since HP was known for its computers, printers and scanners, 
the medical and instrument parts didn't fit into the HP brand.


In the process, it looks like it is loosing it's edge, which is sad to see.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/14/2016 11:08 AM, "Björn Gabrielsson" wrote:

Hi,

Spent the flight back from PTTI next to a HP, then Agilent medical guy.
Aparently the medical stuff did not go into Keysight, they remain Agilent.

--

 Björn


Hi,
It is rather depressing to me to hear RK and others remark about the
unreliability of HP test equipment.
There is one area where they had outstanding equipment.
I was involved with repairing HP medical equipment for 25 years and it was
awesome stuff. This was the same info I got from other BMET's at many
different hospitals.
The TCO was low as the equipment ran and ran, a lot of it 24/7. I'm
talking about a 10 year period.
Usually our equipment was only replaced by newer technology systems.
Too bad it didn't apply to test equipment as well.
Regards,
Perrier
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