Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bob Camp]

Hi

At least in my “unconstrained by reality” state, my thought is that the “sync” 
PPS signal is there all the time. 
You are as much doing a phase lock as a sync. The “PLL” only has a phase 
resolution of 100 ns so once
it’s running, not much happens. Yes, this might get you into all sorts of 
issues like some D-FF’s for early / late
detection. Things are getting more complex ……

Bob


> On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:18 PM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob --
> 
> It's certainly possible to synchronize the TICC timescale epoch to an 
> external pulse at startup.  The external sync pulse would have to 
> simultaneously reset (a) the picDIV and (b) the coarse (100us) counter in the 
> Arduino. The signals to do that are available, so it's a worthwhile 
> experiment.
> 
> I have to think through whether there are any other gotchas but I'm pretty 
> sure that you would not get closer than a few hundred nanoseconds given how 
> closely the picDIV can sync -- I think Tom specifies that it's within 4 
> clocks, or 400 ns.
> 
> (Now, syncing two TICCs to each other is a different matter because there we 
> one unit is master and provides the coarse clock directly to the slave; if 
> both units are run from the same 10 MHz clock they should align within one 10 
> MHz tick.)
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On 11/27/2016 12:26 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Ok, so the guess was fairly close :)
>> 
>> How about a connector to allow an external PPS to reset the internal 10 MHz 
>> divider? That way all
>> the data is “in sync� with the house standard. If I want to know that my 
>> GPSDO is +32.751 ns off from
>> the house standard, I just look at the data on a terminal program …
>> 
>> Or am I missing something really obvious (again)?
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2016, at 10:04 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good guess.  The 10 MHz reference drives all the logic on the board, and 
>>> particularly the counter that maintains a local timescale in 100us 
>>> increments; the TDC7200 interpolates between the 100us ticks to stamp 
>>> incoming events on channel A and/or B with picosecond precision.  The 
>>> stamps on both channels are referenced to the same local timescale.
>>> 
>>> Therefore, you can do a measurement of a PPS source against the 10 MHz 
>>> reference and the resulting timestamp output can be processed by TimeLab or 
>>> whatever into stability data (the requirement being that the software knows 
>>> how to deal with timestamps that increment by the nominal measurement rate, 
>>> e.g., 1 second per measurement for PPS data).
>>> 
>>> So with PPS from GPSDO "A" on channel A the timestamp output after 
>>> unwrapping will show the phase of A vs. 10 MHz.
>>> 
>>> You can add PPS from GPSDO "B" on channel B and the TICC will also output 
>>> timestamps of B vs. the 10 MHz source.
>>> 
>>> If you want, you can subtract A from B to get the time interval between the 
>>> two GPSDO, since both timestamp measurements are against a common 
>>> timescale.  The TICC has a mode to output the (B-A) difference, so it can 
>>> act as either a traditional time interval counter, or as a two-channel 
>>> timestamping counter.
>>> 
>>> And as noted in my other message to Luciano, the TICC can also output both 
>>> timestamp and time interval data simultaneously to allow three-corner-hat 
>>> measurements of (A-C, B-C, B-A) where C is the 10 MHz reference.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/27/2016 09:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
 Hi
 
 Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside 
 the guts of the board. Being
 lazy I’ll just guess ….
 
 There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement 
 inputs. In a lot us will
 be comparing to a “house standard�. That standard has a pps 
 output that is related directly to
 the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 
 million edges) as the right
 edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I 
 don’t really need to measure
 a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in 
 phase to the 10 MHz. All I need to
 do is to tag an edge / reset a counter.
 
 The advantage of this is that I may not need another fancy TDC chip to set 
 up the reference. I can
 use *both* inputs for DUT’s rather than using one as a reference.
 
 Part of the reason I’m guessing this would work is the claim that 
 boards can be stacked for multiple
 input setups ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, timeok  wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hi John,
> I have planned to buy two TICC.
> An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous 
> acquisitions,
> and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels 
> and the 10Mhz clock 

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Tom Van Baak]

John,

The PD15 divider that you're using will sync to within 1 PIC instruction. 
That's sounds good, but the TICC reads down to picoseconds so the 400 ns PIC 
granularity will look pretty high.

There is another solution. And that is not to sync the h/w or s/w counters at 
all. You just let them free-run. But you allow a sync mode where the user 
places a known UTC 1PPS in chA or chB and then the Arduino takes a reading. 
That number is then stored and subtracted from all subsequent readings that the 
Arduino outputs. It's better than a h/w sync because it allows you to sync to 
the ps level. And it also takes into account any propagation delays on your 
board, connector and cables.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" <j...@febo.com>
To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2016 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC


Hi Bob --

It's certainly possible to synchronize the TICC timescale epoch to an 
external pulse at startup.  The external sync pulse would have to 
simultaneously reset (a) the picDIV and (b) the coarse (100us) counter 
in the Arduino. The signals to do that are available, so it's a 
worthwhile experiment.

I have to think through whether there are any other gotchas but I'm 
pretty sure that you would not get closer than a few hundred nanoseconds 
given how closely the picDIV can sync -- I think Tom specifies that it's 
within 4 clocks, or 400 ns.

(Now, syncing two TICCs to each other is a different matter because 
there we one unit is master and provides the coarse clock directly to 
the slave; if both units are run from the same 10 MHz clock they should 
align within one 10 MHz tick.)

John


On 11/27/2016 12:26 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> Ok, so the guess was fairly close :)
>
> How about a connector to allow an external PPS to reset the internal 10 MHz 
> divider? That way all
> the data is “in sync� with the house standard. If I want to know that my 
> GPSDO is +32.751 ns off from
> the house standard, I just look at the data on a terminal program …
>
> Or am I missing something really obvious (again)?
>
> Bob
>
>> On Nov 27, 2016, at 10:04 AM, John Ackermann N8UR <j...@febo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Good guess.  The 10 MHz reference drives all the logic on the board, and 
>> particularly the counter that maintains a local timescale in 100us 
>> increments; the TDC7200 interpolates between the 100us ticks to stamp 
>> incoming events on channel A and/or B with picosecond precision.  The stamps 
>> on both channels are referenced to the same local timescale.
>>
>> Therefore, you can do a measurement of a PPS source against the 10 MHz 
>> reference and the resulting timestamp output can be processed by TimeLab or 
>> whatever into stability data (the requirement being that the software knows 
>> how to deal with timestamps that increment by the nominal measurement rate, 
>> e.g., 1 second per measurement for PPS data).
>>
>> So with PPS from GPSDO "A" on channel A the timestamp output after 
>> unwrapping will show the phase of A vs. 10 MHz.
>>
>> You can add PPS from GPSDO "B" on channel B and the TICC will also output 
>> timestamps of B vs. the 10 MHz source.
>>
>> If you want, you can subtract A from B to get the time interval between the 
>> two GPSDO, since both timestamp measurements are against a common timescale. 
>>  The TICC has a mode to output the (B-A) difference, so it can act as either 
>> a traditional time interval counter, or as a two-channel timestamping 
>> counter.
>>
>> And as noted in my other message to Luciano, the TICC can also output both 
>> timestamp and time interval data simultaneously to allow three-corner-hat 
>> measurements of (A-C, B-C, B-A) where C is the 10 MHz reference.
>>
>> John
>> 
>>
>> On 11/27/2016 09:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside 
>>> the guts of the board. Being
>>> lazy I’ll just guess ….
>>>
>>> There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement 
>>> inputs. In a lot us will
>>> be comparing to a “house standard�. That standard has a pps 
>>> output that is related directly to
>>> the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 
>>> million edges) as the right
>>> edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I 
>>> don’t really need to measure
>>> a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in 
>>> phase to the 10 MHz

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Hi Bob --

It's certainly possible to synchronize the TICC timescale epoch to an 
external pulse at startup.  The external sync pulse would have to 
simultaneously reset (a) the picDIV and (b) the coarse (100us) counter 
in the Arduino. The signals to do that are available, so it's a 
worthwhile experiment.


I have to think through whether there are any other gotchas but I'm 
pretty sure that you would not get closer than a few hundred nanoseconds 
given how closely the picDIV can sync -- I think Tom specifies that it's 
within 4 clocks, or 400 ns.


(Now, syncing two TICCs to each other is a different matter because 
there we one unit is master and provides the coarse clock directly to 
the slave; if both units are run from the same 10 MHz clock they should 
align within one 10 MHz tick.)


John


On 11/27/2016 12:26 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Ok, so the guess was fairly close :)

How about a connector to allow an external PPS to reset the internal 10 MHz 
divider? That way all
the data is “in sync� with the house standard. If I want to know that my 
GPSDO is +32.751 ns off from
the house standard, I just look at the data on a terminal program …

Or am I missing something really obvious (again)?

Bob


On Nov 27, 2016, at 10:04 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

Good guess.  The 10 MHz reference drives all the logic on the board, and 
particularly the counter that maintains a local timescale in 100us increments; 
the TDC7200 interpolates between the 100us ticks to stamp incoming events on 
channel A and/or B with picosecond precision.  The stamps on both channels are 
referenced to the same local timescale.

Therefore, you can do a measurement of a PPS source against the 10 MHz 
reference and the resulting timestamp output can be processed by TimeLab or 
whatever into stability data (the requirement being that the software knows how 
to deal with timestamps that increment by the nominal measurement rate, e.g., 1 
second per measurement for PPS data).

So with PPS from GPSDO "A" on channel A the timestamp output after unwrapping 
will show the phase of A vs. 10 MHz.

You can add PPS from GPSDO "B" on channel B and the TICC will also output 
timestamps of B vs. the 10 MHz source.

If you want, you can subtract A from B to get the time interval between the two 
GPSDO, since both timestamp measurements are against a common timescale.  The 
TICC has a mode to output the (B-A) difference, so it can act as either a 
traditional time interval counter, or as a two-channel timestamping counter.

And as noted in my other message to Luciano, the TICC can also output both 
timestamp and time interval data simultaneously to allow three-corner-hat 
measurements of (A-C, B-C, B-A) where C is the 10 MHz reference.

John


On 11/27/2016 09:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside the 
guts of the board. Being
lazy I’ll just guess ….

There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement inputs. 
In a lot us will
be comparing to a “house standard�. That standard has a pps output 
that is related directly to
the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 million 
edges) as the right
edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I don’t 
really need to measure
a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in phase to 
the 10 MHz. All I need to
do is to tag an edge / reset a counter.

The advantage of this is that I may not need another fancy TDC chip to set up 
the reference. I can
use *both* inputs for DUT’s rather than using one as a reference.

Part of the reason I’m guessing this would work is the claim that boards 
can be stacked for multiple
input setups ….

Bob


On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, timeok  wrote:


   Hi John,
I have planned to buy two TICC.
An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous acquisitions,
and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels and 
the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
Luciano
www.timeok.it


   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
   Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
   Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
   either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
   bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
   frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
   commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
   somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
   4x10e-11.

   With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
   counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and 

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Ok, so the guess was fairly close :)

How about a connector to allow an external PPS to reset the internal 10 MHz 
divider? That way all
the data is “in sync” with the house standard. If I want to know that my GPSDO 
is +32.751 ns off from
the house standard, I just look at the data on a terminal program …

Or am I missing something really obvious (again)? 

Bob

> On Nov 27, 2016, at 10:04 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> Good guess.  The 10 MHz reference drives all the logic on the board, and 
> particularly the counter that maintains a local timescale in 100us 
> increments; the TDC7200 interpolates between the 100us ticks to stamp 
> incoming events on channel A and/or B with picosecond precision.  The stamps 
> on both channels are referenced to the same local timescale.
> 
> Therefore, you can do a measurement of a PPS source against the 10 MHz 
> reference and the resulting timestamp output can be processed by TimeLab or 
> whatever into stability data (the requirement being that the software knows 
> how to deal with timestamps that increment by the nominal measurement rate, 
> e.g., 1 second per measurement for PPS data).
> 
> So with PPS from GPSDO "A" on channel A the timestamp output after unwrapping 
> will show the phase of A vs. 10 MHz.
> 
> You can add PPS from GPSDO "B" on channel B and the TICC will also output 
> timestamps of B vs. the 10 MHz source.
> 
> If you want, you can subtract A from B to get the time interval between the 
> two GPSDO, since both timestamp measurements are against a common timescale.  
> The TICC has a mode to output the (B-A) difference, so it can act as either a 
> traditional time interval counter, or as a two-channel timestamping counter.
> 
> And as noted in my other message to Luciano, the TICC can also output both 
> timestamp and time interval data simultaneously to allow three-corner-hat 
> measurements of (A-C, B-C, B-A) where C is the 10 MHz reference.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On 11/27/2016 09:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside the 
>> guts of the board. Being
>> lazy I’ll just guess ….
>> 
>> There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement 
>> inputs. In a lot us will
>> be comparing to a “house standard�. That standard has a pps output that 
>> is related directly to
>> the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 million 
>> edges) as the right
>> edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I don’t 
>> really need to measure
>> a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in phase to 
>> the 10 MHz. All I need to
>> do is to tag an edge / reset a counter.
>> 
>> The advantage of this is that I may not need another fancy TDC chip to set 
>> up the reference. I can
>> use *both* inputs for DUT’s rather than using one as a reference.
>> 
>> Part of the reason I’m guessing this would work is the claim that boards 
>> can be stacked for multiple
>> input setups ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, timeok  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Hi John,
>>> I have planned to buy two TICC.
>>> An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous 
>>> acquisitions,
>>> and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels 
>>> and the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
>>> Luciano
>>> www.timeok.it
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
>>>   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>>> time-nuts@febo.com
>>>   Cc
>>>   Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
>>>   Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
>>>   Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
>>>   either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
>>>   bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
>>>   frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
>>>   commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
>>>   somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
>>>   4x10e-11.
>>> 
>>>   With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
>>>   counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter,
>>>   based the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip. The
>>>   noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370,
>>>   but here's the trick: the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting a Mega
>>>   2560 controller) that weighs a couple of ounces, requires *no*
>>>   calibration, and is powered from a USB cable!
>>> 
>>>   The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter. That
>>>   means it can measure or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second)
>>>   inputs against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional
>>>   time interval measurement of input against the other. It can also
>>>   

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Good guess.  The 10 MHz reference drives all the logic on the board, and 
particularly the counter that maintains a local timescale in 100us 
increments; the TDC7200 interpolates between the 100us ticks to stamp 
incoming events on channel A and/or B with picosecond precision.  The 
stamps on both channels are referenced to the same local timescale.


Therefore, you can do a measurement of a PPS source against the 10 MHz 
reference and the resulting timestamp output can be processed by TimeLab 
or whatever into stability data (the requirement being that the software 
knows how to deal with timestamps that increment by the nominal 
measurement rate, e.g., 1 second per measurement for PPS data).


So with PPS from GPSDO "A" on channel A the timestamp output after 
unwrapping will show the phase of A vs. 10 MHz.


You can add PPS from GPSDO "B" on channel B and the TICC will also 
output timestamps of B vs. the 10 MHz source.


If you want, you can subtract A from B to get the time interval between 
the two GPSDO, since both timestamp measurements are against a common 
timescale.  The TICC has a mode to output the (B-A) difference, so it 
can act as either a traditional time interval counter, or as a 
two-channel timestamping counter.


And as noted in my other message to Luciano, the TICC can also output 
both timestamp and time interval data simultaneously to allow 
three-corner-hat measurements of (A-C, B-C, B-A) where C is the 10 MHz 
reference.


John


On 11/27/2016 09:24 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside the guts 
of the board. Being
lazy I’ll just guess ….

There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement inputs. 
In a lot us will
be comparing to a “house standard�. That standard has a pps output that is 
related directly to
the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 million 
edges) as the right
edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I don’t 
really need to measure
a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in phase to the 
10 MHz. All I need to
do is to tag an edge / reset a counter.

The advantage of this is that I may not need another fancy TDC chip to set up 
the reference. I can
use *both* inputs for DUT’s rather than using one as a reference.

Part of the reason I’m guessing this would work is the claim that boards can 
be stacked for multiple
input setups ….

Bob


On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, timeok  wrote:


   Hi John,
I have planned to buy two TICC.
An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous acquisitions,
and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels and 
the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
Luciano
www.timeok.it


   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
   Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
   Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
   either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
   bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
   frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
   commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
   somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
   4x10e-11.

   With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
   counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter,
   based the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip. The
   noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370,
   but here's the trick: the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting a Mega
   2560 controller) that weighs a couple of ounces, requires *no*
   calibration, and is powered from a USB cable!

   The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter. That
   means it can measure or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second)
   inputs against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional
   time interval measurement of input against the other. It can also
   measure period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel timestamp
   data. (And by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6,
   8, or more synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this
   capability yet.)

   I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of
   a 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also
   showing the TICC noise floor. The good news behind that plot is that
   there are more than 6 million data points behind these results, and
   there was not a single glitch or significant outlier among them.

   There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC

   The software is open source (BSD license) and is 

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Hi Luciano --

Glad to hear that!

The capability you asked for already exists (great minds think alike...)

In timestamp mode, the TICC will output the stamps for each channel 
independently, measured against the common 10 MHz reference.  So if both 
channels are active, you'll see a bunch of lines something like:


1.234567891234 chA
1.234567892345 chB
2.234567890434 chA
2.234567892789 chB

Recent beta versions of TimeLab can acquire multiple channels on a 
single serial port; there are a couple of magic setup commands in the 
"Acquire" dialog that will allow TimeLab to receive the above and 
display it as two separate traces.


There is also a three-cornered-hat capability, though it's a bit of a 
hack.  The TICC has a "TimeLab" mode which will output two timestamps as 
above, but in addition "chC" which is the time interval (B-A).


Since TimeLab requires all the input signals to be in the same format, 
the chC output is munged into a fake timestamp like this (adding the 
integer part of chB to the B-A difference):


1.234567891234 chA
1.234567892345 chB
1. chC
2.234567890434 chA
2.234567892789 chB
2.2355 chC

With both TICC and TimeLab configured this way, you can do 
three-cornered-hat measurements in real time, which is pretty cool.


When I get a chance, I'll document the setup for this in the TICC 
operation manual.


John

On 11/27/2016 07:36 AM, timeok wrote:


Hi John,
I have planned to buy two TICC.
An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous acquisitions,
and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels and 
the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
Luciano
www.timeok.it


From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Cc
Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
4x10e-11.

With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter,
based the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip. The
noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370,
but here's the trick: the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting a Mega
2560 controller) that weighs a couple of ounces, requires *no*
calibration, and is powered from a USB cable!

The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter. That
means it can measure or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second)
inputs against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional
time interval measurement of input against the other. It can also
measure period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel timestamp
data. (And by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6,
8, or more synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this
capability yet.)

I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of
a 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also
showing the TICC noise floor. The good news behind that plot is that
there are more than 6 million data points behind these results, and
there was not a single glitch or significant outlier among them.

There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC

The software is open source (BSD license) and is available at
https://github.com/TAPR/TICC -- the current version seems be reliable
but there are still features to add and a *lot* of cleanup to do; it's
currently ugly and very much a work in process.

As always, I'll be making the TICC available through TAPR. We're still
finalizing details, but we expect the price to be less than $200 for a
turn-key system: TICC mounted an Arduino with software loaded and
tested for basic functionality. We hope to ship the TICC by February.

I'll post a note in a week or two with final price and ordering
information. As a heads up, we will probably offer a small discount for
pre-orders. TAPR is a shoestring non-profit group and the up-front cost
to manufacture this unit will frankly be a challenge for us. Getting
pre-orders will help our cash flow significantly, so we ask you to keep
that in mind.

John
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Without doing a bunch of actual *work* I’m not sure what is inside the guts of 
the board. Being 
lazy I’ll just guess ….

There appears to be a 10 MHz time base input and a pair of measurement inputs. 
In a lot us will 
be comparing to a “house standard”. That standard has a pps output that is 
related directly to 
the 10 MHz reference. If I can uniquely identify one edge (out of 10 million 
edges) as the right 
edge, I can use the 10 MHz as my pps reference. Put another way, I don’t really 
need to measure
a pps input from the house standard if I’m already locked up in phase to the 10 
MHz. All I need to
do is to tag an edge / reset a counter. 

The advantage of this is that I may not need another fancy TDC chip to set up 
the reference. I can
use *both* inputs for DUT’s rather than using one as a reference.

Part of the reason I’m guessing this would work is the claim that boards can be 
stacked for multiple 
input setups ….

Bob

> On Nov 27, 2016, at 7:36 AM, timeok  wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hi John,
> I have planned to buy two TICC.
> An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous 
> acquisitions,
> and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels and 
> the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
> Luciano
> www.timeok.it
> 
> 
>   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
>   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
>   Cc
>   Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
>   Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
>   Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
>   either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
>   bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
>   frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
>   commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
>   somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
>   4x10e-11.
> 
>   With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
>   counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter,
>   based the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip. The
>   noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370,
>   but here's the trick: the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting a Mega
>   2560 controller) that weighs a couple of ounces, requires *no*
>   calibration, and is powered from a USB cable!
> 
>   The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter. That
>   means it can measure or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second)
>   inputs against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional
>   time interval measurement of input against the other. It can also
>   measure period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel timestamp
>   data. (And by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6,
>   8, or more synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this
>   capability yet.)
> 
>   I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of
>   a 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also
>   showing the TICC noise floor. The good news behind that plot is that
>   there are more than 6 million data points behind these results, and
>   there was not a single glitch or significant outlier among them.
> 
>   There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC
> 
>   The software is open source (BSD license) and is available at
>   https://github.com/TAPR/TICC -- the current version seems be reliable
>   but there are still features to add and a *lot* of cleanup to do; it's
>   currently ugly and very much a work in process.
> 
>   As always, I'll be making the TICC available through TAPR. We're still
>   finalizing details, but we expect the price to be less than $200 for a
>   turn-key system: TICC mounted an Arduino with software loaded and
>   tested for basic functionality. We hope to ship the TICC by February.
> 
>   I'll post a note in a week or two with final price and ordering
>   information. As a heads up, we will probably offer a small discount for
>   pre-orders. TAPR is a shoestring non-profit group and the up-front cost
>   to manufacture this unit will frankly be a challenge for us. Getting
>   pre-orders will help our cash flow significantly, so we ask you to keep
>   that in mind.
> 
>   John
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[timeok]

   Hi John,
I have planned to buy two TICC.
An interesting feature would be to be able to do two simultaneous acquisitions,
and Timelab as real time display,using the two indipendent input channels and 
the 10Mhz clock as single reference.
Luciano
www.timeok.it


   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:48:57 -0500
   Subject [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
   Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult. They require
   either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a
   bunch of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by
   frequent calibration. The very best single-shot resolution that's been
   commercially available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter
   somewhat more than that. My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about
   4x10e-11.

   With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
   counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter,
   based the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip. The
   noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370,
   but here's the trick: the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting a Mega
   2560 controller) that weighs a couple of ounces, requires *no*
   calibration, and is powered from a USB cable!

   The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter. That
   means it can measure or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second)
   inputs against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional
   time interval measurement of input against the other. It can also
   measure period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel timestamp
   data. (And by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6,
   8, or more synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this
   capability yet.)

   I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of
   a 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also
   showing the TICC noise floor. The good news behind that plot is that
   there are more than 6 million data points behind these results, and
   there was not a single glitch or significant outlier among them.

   There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC

   The software is open source (BSD license) and is available at
   https://github.com/TAPR/TICC -- the current version seems be reliable
   but there are still features to add and a *lot* of cleanup to do; it's
   currently ugly and very much a work in process.

   As always, I'll be making the TICC available through TAPR. We're still
   finalizing details, but we expect the price to be less than $200 for a
   turn-key system: TICC mounted an Arduino with software loaded and
   tested for basic functionality. We hope to ship the TICC by February.

   I'll post a note in a week or two with final price and ordering
   information. As a heads up, we will probably offer a small discount for
   pre-orders. TAPR is a shoestring non-profit group and the up-front cost
   to manufacture this unit will frankly be a challenge for us. Getting
   pre-orders will help our cash flow significantly, so we ask you to keep
   that in mind.

   John
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[timeok]

   Hi Li,
   can you share more info about your project?
   Luciano
   www.timeok.it


   From "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   To "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Date Sat, 26 Nov 2016 13:16:34 +0800
   Subject Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC
   Great job.

   I am doing a similar project too.
   I've just sent gerber/pos/bom files to the PCB company. 3 tdc7200s are 
used on my board to support the 3-corner-hat measurement.

   Regards
   Li Ang

   ---Original---
   From: "John Ackermann N8UR"<j...@febo.com>
   Date: 2016/11/25 22:57:33
   To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement"<time-nuts@febo.com>;"David"<mcqu...@sonic.net>;
   Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC


   Hi Dave --

   I should clarify -- this UI is just a character-based menu system using
   a dumb terminal program. The code is implemented within the Arduino.

   It's written in the somewhat nonstandard C/C++ used by the Arduino IDE.
   This morning I'm going to add a "TODO-UI" file to the git repository
   explaining what the menu system needs to do.

   TimeLab is able to read the data stream and plot results in real-time,
   so there's no urgent need for software on the host end. But I do need
   to allow the user to set a number of configuration parameters without
   having to recompile the code, so that's the urgent goal.

   Thanks!
   John
   
   On 11/25/2016 03:26 AM, David wrote:
   > John,
   >
   > In what language is the GUI written? I might be able to help on
   > that, or other parts of the software, if someone else hasn't yet
   > volunteered.
   >
   > Dave, WA8YWQ
   >
   > On 2016-11-24 06:43, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
   >
   >> Hi Anders --
   >>
   >> Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A. I have not used one of
   >> those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.
   >>
   >> Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like
   >> the 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting. It does
   >> far fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my
   >> design criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.
   >>
   >> With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
   >> about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
   >> microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit
   >> operations than are necessary, and there are other things that can
   >> surely be tweaked.
   >>
   >> The killer is the serial output via USB. It can take up to 10 ms to
   >> output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
   >> rate. I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
   >> results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
   >> functionality that I need to finish first.
   >>
   >> BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
   >> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work
   >> on it. Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work
   >> to do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
   >> critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
   >> parameters.
   >>
   >> John
   >> 
   >> On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
   >>> Nice work!
   >>> On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
   >>> time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
   >>> I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
   >>> time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
   >>> example:
   >>> 
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png
   >>>
   >>> Anders
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince <petervince1...@gmail.com
   >>> <mailto:petervince1...@gmail.com>>
   >>> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>> Fantastic John - well done! Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
   >>>> as possible.
   >>>>
   >>>> Regards,
   >>>>
   >>>> Peter (G8ZZR, London)
   >>>> ___
   >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
   >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
   >>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   >>>> and follow the instructions there.
   >>>>
   >>> _

Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Li Ang]

Great job.

I am doing a similar project too.
I've just sent gerber/pos/bom files to the PCB company.  3 tdc7200s are 
used on my board to support the 3-corner-hat measurement. 

Regards
Li Ang

---Original---
From: "John Ackermann N8UR"<j...@febo.com>
Date: 2016/11/25 22:57:33
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement"<time-nuts@febo.com>;"David"<mcqu...@sonic.net>;
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC


Hi Dave --

I should clarify -- this UI is just a character-based menu system using 
a dumb terminal program.  The code is implemented within the Arduino.

It's written in the somewhat nonstandard C/C++ used by the Arduino IDE. 
  This morning I'm going to add a "TODO-UI" file to the git repository 
explaining what the menu system needs to do.

TimeLab is able to read the data stream and plot results in real-time, 
so there's no urgent need for software on the host end.  But I do need 
to allow the user to set a number of configuration parameters without 
having to recompile the code, so that's the urgent goal.

Thanks!
John

On 11/25/2016 03:26 AM, David wrote:
> John,
>
>In what language is the GUI written?  I might be able to help on
> that, or other parts of the software, if someone else hasn't yet
> volunteered.
>
> Dave, WA8YWQ
>
> On 2016-11-24 06:43, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
>
>> Hi Anders --
>>
>> Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
>> those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.
>>
>> Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like
>> the 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does
>> far fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my
>> design criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.
>>
>> With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
>> about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
>> microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit
>> operations than are necessary, and there are other things that can
>> surely be tweaked.
>>
>> The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
>> output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
>> rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
>> results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
>> functionality that I need to finish first.
>>
>> BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
>> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work
>> on it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work
>> to do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
>> critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
>> parameters.
>>
>> John
>> 
>> On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
>>> Nice work!
>>> On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
>>> time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
>>> I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
>>> time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
>>> example:
>>> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince <petervince1...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:petervince1...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>>   Regards,
>>>>
>>>>   Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
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>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Hi Dave --

I should clarify -- this UI is just a character-based menu system using 
a dumb terminal program.  The code is implemented within the Arduino.


It's written in the somewhat nonstandard C/C++ used by the Arduino IDE. 
 This morning I'm going to add a "TODO-UI" file to the git repository 
explaining what the menu system needs to do.


TimeLab is able to read the data stream and plot results in real-time, 
so there's no urgent need for software on the host end.  But I do need 
to allow the user to set a number of configuration parameters without 
having to recompile the code, so that's the urgent goal.


Thanks!
John

On 11/25/2016 03:26 AM, David wrote:

John,

   In what language is the GUI written?  I might be able to help on
that, or other parts of the software, if someone else hasn't yet
volunteered.

Dave, WA8YWQ

On 2016-11-24 06:43, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:


Hi Anders --

Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.

Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like
the 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does
far fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my
design criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.

With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit
operations than are necessary, and there are other things that can
surely be tweaked.

The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
functionality that I need to finish first.

BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work
on it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work
to do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
parameters.

John

On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:

Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png

Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince >
wrote:


Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
as possible.

  Regards,

  Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[David]

John, 

  In what language is the GUI written?  I might be able to help on that,
or other parts of the software, if someone else hasn't yet volunteered. 

Dave, WA8YWQ 

On 2016-11-24 06:43, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

> Hi Anders --
> 
> Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of those 
> myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.
> 
> Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the 
> 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far fewer 
> measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my design criteria was 
> for use in PPS measuring system.
> 
> With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is about 1 
> millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two microseconds from 
> that as the code currently has more 64 bit operations than are necessary, and 
> there are other things that can surely be tweaked.
> 
> The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to output 
> 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement rate.  I'm 
> pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer results to reduce USB 
> packetization delays), but there's other functionality that I need to finish 
> first.
> 
> BTW -- the software is open source and on github at 
> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work on it.  
> Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to do, I could 
> use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most critically finishing a UI 
> that will allow the user to set operating parameters.
> 
> John
> 
> On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote: Nice work!
> On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
> time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
> I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
> time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
> example:
> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png
> 
> Anders
> 
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 
> wrote:
> 
> Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
> as possible.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bruce Griffiths]

John
Whilst its the highest resolution HP/Agilent/Keysight general purpose counter, 
one of the Acquiris timestamping instruments specifies 5ps noise.Whilst no 
detailed circuit schematics are publicly available, the datasheet says just 
enough to allow me to figure  out how they do it.Your timestamping counter fits 
nicely in the niche between these and the HP5131A at much lower cost than the 
latter.
Bruce 

On Friday, 25 November 2016 11:00 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  
wrote:
 

 Thanks, Bruce, I'll update the web page to reference the 53230A as the 
best resolution device currently available.

On 11/24/2016 01:03 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> John
>
> There is an application note or similar on the 53230A that indicates that
> the single shot noise for time interval measurement is typically about 13ps
> or so.
>
> Bruce
> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 09:43:54 AM John Ackermann N8UR
> wrote:
>> Hi Anders --
>>
>> Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
>> those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.
>>
>> Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the
>> 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far
>> fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my
> design
>> criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.
>>
>> With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
>> about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
>> microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit
> operations
>> than are necessary, and there are other things that can surely be
> tweaked.
>>
>> The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
>> output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
>> rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
>> results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
>> functionality that I need to finish first.
>>
>> BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
>> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work
> on
>> it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to
>> do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
>> critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
>> parameters.
>>
>> John
>> 
>>
>> On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
>>> Nice work!
>>> On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
>>> time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
>>> I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
>>> time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see
> for
>>> example:
>>> http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince
> 
>>>
>>> wrote:
 Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
 as possible.

        Regards,

            Peter  (G8ZZR, London)

 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>>
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>>> instructions there.
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Thanks, Bruce, I'll update the web page to reference the 53230A as the 
best resolution device currently available.


On 11/24/2016 01:03 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:

John

There is an application note or similar on the 53230A that indicates that
the single shot noise for time interval measurement is typically about 13ps
or so.

Bruce
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 09:43:54 AM John Ackermann N8UR
wrote:

Hi Anders --

Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.

Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the
53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far
fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my

design

criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.

With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit

operations

than are necessary, and there are other things that can surely be

tweaked.


The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
functionality that I need to finish first.

BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work

on

it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to
do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
parameters.

John


On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:

Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see

for

example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png

Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince




wrote:

Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
as possible.

   Regards,

   Peter  (G8ZZR, London)

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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[jimlux]

On 11/24/16 6:43 AM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

Hi Anders --

Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.

Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the
53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far
fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my design
criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.

With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit operations
than are necessary, and there are other things that can surely be tweaked.

The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
functionality that I need to finish first.


2000 bytes/second

A "arduino compatible" processor might help.. The teensy easily pumps 6 
kbytes/second over USB in 64 byte chunks - but the Freescale processor 
has a hardware USB buffer thing.








BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work on
it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to
do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
parameters.

John

On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:

Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png


Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 
wrote:


Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as
soon
as possible.

  Regards,

  Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bruce Griffiths]

John

There is an application note or similar on the 53230A that indicates that 
the single shot noise for time interval measurement is typically about 13ps 
or so.

Bruce
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 09:43:54 AM John Ackermann N8UR 
wrote:
> Hi Anders --
> 
> Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of
> those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.
> 
> Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the
> 53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far
> fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my 
design
> criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.
> 
> With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is
> about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two
> microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit 
operations
> than are necessary, and there are other things that can surely be 
tweaked.
> 
> The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to
> output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement
> rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer
> results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other
> functionality that I need to finish first.
> 
> BTW -- the software is open source and on github at
> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work 
on
> it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to
> do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most
> critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating
> parameters.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
> > Nice work!
> > On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
> > time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
> > I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
> > time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see 
for
> > example:
> > http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png
> > 
> > Anders
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 

> > 
> > wrote:
> >> Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
> >> as possible.
> >> 
> >>   Regards,
> >>   
> >>   Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
> >> 
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Thanks, Andrew.  Yes, it is weird how the Arduino folks choose what 
capabilities to expose on the board.  From some testing I did, it seems 
that the Arduino handles the 100 kHz interrupt rate without too much 
strain -- it became a bigger issue at 250 kHz or above -- but the timers 
would have been a more elegant approach if they had been available.


John


On 11/24/2016 02:49 AM, Andrew Rodland wrote:

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:48 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter.  That means
it can measure one or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second) inputs
against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional time
interval measurement of one input against the other.  It can also measure
period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel  timestamp data.  (And
by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6, 8, or more
synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this capability yet.)


Very exciting, I will definitely be wanting one :)

There's *almost* a way to do the coarse timer counting with almost no
CPU overhead, but unfortunately the Arduino folks were terribly
inconsistent about which timer signals they decided to assign to
Arduino pins. Of the six external clocks for timers, they brought out
two (T0 and T5), and of the four input captures, they brought out two
(ICP4 and ICP5). If they had brought out T4 then with a little bit of
timer configuration you could use COARSE to clock TIMER4 and TIMER5 in
lockstep, run STOP_A and STOP_B to ICP4 and ICP5, and instead of
interrupting at 10kHz to increment PICcount, you would only have to
interrupt every 6.5536 seconds to increment the upper bits. Plus
handling the actual events of course. I find that very appealing, but
unfortunately, T4 is out of reach of a shield.

Andrew
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Hi Anders --

Thanks, and thanks for the info on the 53230A.  I have not used one of 
those myself but the data sheet lists 20ps single-shot.


Also I should note that the TICC does not compete with counters like the 
53230A for high speed measurement, or frequency counting.  It does far 
fewer measurements per second than the high-end counters -- my design 
criteria was for use in PPS measuring system.


With the current software, the actual measurement processing time is 
about 1 millisecond; we may be able to optimize a hundred or two 
microseconds from that as the code currently has more 64 bit operations 
than are necessary, and there are other things that can surely be tweaked.


The killer is the serial output via USB.  It can take up to 10 ms to 
output 20 characters, and that's what really limits the measurement 
rate.  I'm pretty sure this can be improved (one idea is to buffer 
results to reduce USB packetization delays), but there's other 
functionality that I need to finish first.


BTW -- the software is open source and on github at 
https://github.com/TAPR/TICC , so I welcome anyone who wants to work on 
it.  Bug fixes are gladly accepted, and if you're looking for work to 
do, I could use a volunteer to work on a couple of areas, most 
critically finishing a UI that will allow the user to set operating 
parameters.


John

On 11/24/2016 02:40 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:

Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png

Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 
wrote:


Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
as possible.

  Regards,

  Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bruce Griffiths]

1-2ps rms single shot noise timestamping is feasible with embedded (occurs as 
part of the interpolation process) interpolator calibration. Only calibration 
of the differential delay between channels is required, as is required by all 
such instruments.
However the cost for such a timestamping counter is somewhat higher than for 
John's timestamping counter, but about a couple of orders of magnitude less 
than the final list price of a 5370B.
Bruce 

On Thursday, 24 November 2016 9:01 PM, Anders Wallin 
 wrote:
 

 Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png

Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 
wrote:

> Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
> as possible.
>
>      Regards,
>
>          Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Anders Wallin]

Nice work!
On the website in the introduction you mention 22ps single-shot
time-stamping on the 5370A/B.
I think it's well established that the 53230A does about 11-12 ps for
time-intervals, which corresponds to about 9 ps single-channel. see for
example:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/53230A_PPS_skew.png

Anders


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Peter Vince 
wrote:

> Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
> as possible.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Andrew Rodland]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 10:48 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter.  That means
> it can measure one or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second) inputs
> against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional time
> interval measurement of one input against the other.  It can also measure
> period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel  timestamp data.  (And
> by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6, 8, or more
> synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this capability yet.)

Very exciting, I will definitely be wanting one :)

There's *almost* a way to do the coarse timer counting with almost no
CPU overhead, but unfortunately the Arduino folks were terribly
inconsistent about which timer signals they decided to assign to
Arduino pins. Of the six external clocks for timers, they brought out
two (T0 and T5), and of the four input captures, they brought out two
(ICP4 and ICP5). If they had brought out T4 then with a little bit of
timer configuration you could use COARSE to clock TIMER4 and TIMER5 in
lockstep, run STOP_A and STOP_B to ICP4 and ICP5, and instead of
interrupting at 10kHz to increment PICcount, you would only have to
interrupt every 6.5536 seconds to increment the upper bits. Plus
handling the actual events of course. I find that very appealing, but
unfortunately, T4 is out of reach of a shield.

Andrew
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Peter Vince]

Fantastic John - well done!  Yes, I'll definitely put an order in as soon
as possible.

 Regards,

 Peter  (G8ZZR, London)
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Christopher Hoover]

That TI TDC7200 really is a nice part.

Neat project!   Will buy .  Two thumbs up.


On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:

> Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult.  They require
> either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a bunch
> of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by frequent
> calibration.  The very best single-shot resolution that's been commercially
> available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter somewhat more
> than that.  My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about 4x10e-11.
>
> With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new
> counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter, based
> on the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip.  The
> one-second noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370, but
> here's the trick:  the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting on a Mega 2560
> controller) that weighs only a couple of ounces, requires *no* calibration,
> and is powered from a USB cable!
>
> The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter.  That means
> it can measure one or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second) inputs
> against an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional time
> interval measurement of one input against the other.  It can also measure
> period, ratio, or any other function of two-channel  timestamp data.  (And
> by the way -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6, 8, or more
> synchronized channels, though we haven't tested this capability yet.)
>
> I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of a
> 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also showing
> the TICC noise floor.  The good news behind that plot is that there are
> more than 6 million data points behind these results, and there was not a
> single glitch or significant outlier among them.
>
> There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC
>
> The software is open source (BSD license) and is available at
> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC -- the current version seems be reliable but
> there are still features to add and a *lot* of cleanup to do; it's
> currently ugly and very much a work in process.
>
> As always, I'll be making the TICC available through TAPR.  We're still
> finalizing details, but we expect the price to be less than $200 for a
> turn-key system:  TICC mounted on an Arduino with software loaded and
> tested for basic functionality.  We hope to ship the TICC by February.
>
> I'll post a note in a week or two with final price and ordering
> information.  As a heads up, we will probably offer a small discount for
> pre-orders.  TAPR is a shoestring non-profit group and the up-front cost to
> manufacture this unit will frankly be a challenge for us.  Getting
> pre-orders will help our cash flow significantly, so we ask you to keep
> that in mind.
>
> John
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] New Timestamping / Time Interval Counter: the TICC

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Cool !!!

Bob

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:48 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> Counters with resolution below 1 nanosecond are difficult.  They require 
> either outrageous clock speeds, or interpolators that are typically a bunch 
> of analog components mixed with black magic and stirred by frequent 
> calibration.  The very best single-shot resolution that's been commercially 
> available is 22 picoseconds in the HP 5370A/B, with jitter somewhat more than 
> that.  My 5370B has an one-second noise ADEV of about 4x10e-11.
> 
> With the help of some very talented friends, I've been working on a new 
> counter called the "TICC" with <60ps resolution and similar jitter, based on 
> the Texas Instruments TDC7200 time-to-data-converter chip.  The one-second 
> noise ADEV is about 7x10e-11, not much worse than the 5370, but here's the 
> trick:  the TICC is an Arduino shield (mounting on a Mega 2560 controller) 
> that weighs only a couple of ounces, requires *no* calibration, and is 
> powered from a USB cable!
> 
> The TICC is implemented as a two-channel timestamping counter.  That means it 
> can measure one or two low-frequency (e.g., pulse-per-second) inputs against 
> an external 10 MHz reference, or it can do a traditional time interval 
> measurement of one input against the other.  It can also measure period, 
> ratio, or any other function of two-channel  timestamp data.  (And by the way 
> -- multiple TICCs can be connected to yield 4, 6, 8, or more synchronized 
> channels, though we haven't tested this capability yet.)
> 
> I've attached a picture of the TICC prototype as well as an ADEV plot of a 
> 17+ day run of multiple measurements taken by two TICCs, and also showing the 
> TICC noise floor.  The good news behind that plot is that there are more than 
> 6 million data points behind these results, and there was not a single glitch 
> or significant outlier among them.
> 
> There's more information available at http://febo.com/pages/TICC
> 
> The software is open source (BSD license) and is available at 
> https://github.com/TAPR/TICC -- the current version seems be reliable but 
> there are still features to add and a *lot* of cleanup to do; it's currently 
> ugly and very much a work in process.
> 
> As always, I'll be making the TICC available through TAPR.  We're still 
> finalizing details, but we expect the price to be less than $200 for a 
> turn-key system:  TICC mounted on an Arduino with software loaded and tested 
> for basic functionality.  We hope to ship the TICC by February.
> 
> I'll post a note in a week or two with final price and ordering information.  
> As a heads up, we will probably offer a small discount for pre-orders.  TAPR 
> is a shoestring non-profit group and the up-front cost to manufacture this 
> unit will frankly be a challenge for us.  Getting pre-orders will help our 
> cash flow significantly, so we ask you to keep that in mind.
> 
> John
> 
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