Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On 8/8/12 5:19 AM, Sylvain Munaut wrote: Hi, SVG is uncompressed text. PNG compresses well, at least for simple cases. Decently configured web servers will compress SVG on the fly during transport, wich yields a 9k transfer size. (and your server is definitely not properly configured for SVG, it doesn't compress and serves it as text/plain ...) decently configured probably excludes my application, where I have a very limited function server (an Arduino) Web services are a convenient, nearly universal, scheme to communicate between boxes. It's not always in the context of a traditional fat server/thin client sort of model. In fact, I'd say that the client end (the web browser) typically has more computing and display horsepower (on a per connection basis) than the server in most cases. Even a fairly big server serving 100s of pages per second to iPhone type clients has a more horsepower on the receiving end than the sending end. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: So you are saying that SVG can't work because one example of it is broken. Also, there are other vector formats, like Postscript and PDF. No. I think my ISP's web server has a simple misconfiguration. It does work for ps and pdf, at least with my copy of Firefox. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/test/ ps and pdf, at least the way I see them, are not in the same boat as SVG. SVG is an image format that can easily be included in a html page. ps and pdf are stand alone. They assume they control the whole setup and are targeted at paper. Think 8.5x11 or A4. Yes, if you have a good pdf display program, you can zoom in/out. But I haven't seen pdf graphs included inside normal html pages. Again, my knowledge of this area is not-great. I could easily have missed something. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
Hal, I never tried to use SVG before, but after your messages tonight I played around with it a bit. I would never have expected it, but I think you are right about the issue being a server configuration. I copied your SVG file and got the same results. On my local hard drive it opens as a graph. I copied it to my own web pages and I also saw it display as text. I browsed around and found this SVG picture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/Heckert_GNU_white.svg It displays fine at that link. I copied the svg file to my web directories (hosted by GoDaddy) and there the same file displays as text. I have a debugging tool add-on on FireFox. I displayed a thing called 'Response Headers' that (I think) come from the server. For the svg link on my pages I see one field: 'Content-Type: text/plain'. If I do the same response header display on the wikimedia.org link I see 'Content-Type: image/svg+xml'. So that seems to be what makes it work or not work. If you go to: http://validator.w3.org and enter your link into the address field (http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.svg) then click Check, you will get a message that sort of explains the situation, except I still don't know how to get the server configured for for svg file = 'Content-Type: image/svg+xml'. So it seems most browsers are now ready for SVG, but many servers are not. Maybe someone else can give us more details on what change might be required. In the mean time it looks like I won't be using any SVG on my pages either. -Rex On 8/7/2012 11:57 PM, Hal Murray wrote: albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: So you are saying that SVG can't work because one example of it is broken. Also, there are other vector formats, like Postscript and PDF. No. I think my ISP's web server has a simple misconfiguration. It does work for ps and pdf, at least with my copy of Firefox. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/test/ ps and pdf, at least the way I see them, are not in the same boat as SVG. SVG is an image format that can easily be included in a html page. ps and pdf are stand alone. They assume they control the whole setup and are targeted at paper. Think 8.5x11 or A4. Yes, if you have a good pdf display program, you can zoom in/out. But I haven't seen pdf graphs included inside normal html pages. Again, my knowledge of this area is not-great. I could easily have missed something. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
Hello, on Wed, 08 Aug 2012 02:00:40 -0700 Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: So it seems most browsers are now ready for SVG, but many servers are not. Maybe someone else can give us more details on what change might be required. In the mean time it looks like I won't be using any SVG on my pages either. I agree that most browsers are now ready for SVG, even when it is embedded in HTML. So, I'd try to create HTML documents with your SVGs embedded on them, this way: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd; html head titleSVG file/title /head body svg xmlns=http://www.w3.org/2000/svg; version=1.1 circle cx=100 cy=50 r=40 fill=red/ /svg /body /html Maybe this is a solution for the mime-type mismatch at GoDaddy :-) -- Pablo Garaizar Sagarminaga Universidad de Deusto Avda. de las Universidades 24 48007 Bilbao - Spain Phone: +34-94-4139000 Ext 2512 Fax: +34-94-4139101 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
Le 08/08/2012 11:00, Rex a écrit : Hal, I If you go to: http://validator.w3.org and enter your link into the address field (http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.svg) then click Check, you will get a message that sort of explains the situation, except I still don't know how to get the server configured for for svg file = 'Content-Type: image/svg+xml'. So it seems most browsers are now ready for SVG, but many servers are not. Maybe someone else can give us more details on what change might be required. In the mean time it looks like I won't be using any SVG on my pages either. I don't use svg either, but the version of apache I have installed (2.2.19) does have svg listed in the mime types config file. /usr/local/etc/apache22/mime.types ... # image/prs.pti image/svg+xml svg svgz # image/t38 ... If your server is apache I think that uncommenting the line and restarting httpd should be enough. If you have a propriety server you may need to update something else. Firefox accessing my server does display the graph correctly. -Rex , et la caravane passe. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
Hi, SVG is uncompressed text. PNG compresses well, at least for simple cases. Decently configured web servers will compress SVG on the fly during transport, wich yields a 9k transfer size. (and your server is definitely not properly configured for SVG, it doesn't compress and serves it as text/plain ...) Cheers, Sylvain ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: ps and pdf, at least the way I see them, are not in the same boat as SVG. SVG is an image format that can easily be included in a html page. ps and pdf are stand alone. They assume they control the whole setup and are targeted at paper. Think 8.5x11 or A4. Here is a random counterexample to the above. http://www.acousticscale.org/wiki/index.php/File:SHAR_PGW_2009_Staves.eps That said. SVG is probably the way to go. But Postscript (EPS) is more sophisticated in that PS is an executable script that draws an image. This means you can do conditional branching and computation to for example replace text with grey blocks if scaled below some limit. SVG is only descriptive, not executable. SVG is likely good enough for making a graph. If you are worried about the size of an SVG file you can use a compressed link on the web page and cut the amount of data sent to maybe 30% http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/compress/ Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On 8/8/2012 1:41 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: ps and pdf, at least the way I see them, are not in the same boat as SVG. SVG is an image format that can easily be included in a html page. ps and pdf are stand alone. They assume they control the whole setup and are targeted at paper. Think 8.5x11 or A4. Here is a random counterexample to the above. http://www.acousticscale.org/wiki/index.php/File:SHAR_PGW_2009_Staves.eps ?? That's a page, which despite its title, contains a .png image, so the image is viewable in a browser. The eps is here: http://www.acousticscale.org/wiki/images/a/a0/SHAR_PGW_2009_Staves.eps Try opening the real eps in your browser. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
http://www.acousticscale.org/**wiki/index.php/File:SHAR_PGW_** 2009_Staves.epshttp://www.acousticscale.org/wiki/index.php/File:SHAR_PGW_2009_Staves.eps ?? That's a page, which despite its title, contains a .png image, so the image is viewable in a browser. The eps is here: http://www.acousticscale.org/**wiki/images/a/a0/SHAR_PGW_**2009_Staves.eps http://www.acousticscale.org/wiki/images/a/a0/SHAR_PGW_2009_Staves.eps Yes your link is correct. I cut and pasted the wrong one. EPS is the style of postscript that is intended to be embedded. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
p...@phk.freebsd.dk said: That is _exactly_ why you should use a vectorformat like SVG: Raster format is a waste of bytes for line graphics. Except that it doesn't work that way, at least for my simple test case. SVG is uncompressed text. PNG compresses well, at least for simple cases. PNG, 8K: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.png SVG, 46K: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.svg (It doesn't work right in my browser. It shows up as type text/plain rather than image/svg. I don't know if that's my screwup or a bug in my ISP's web server.) It works OK if I download it and view it with Firefox from my disk. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
You can save the file then view it in inkscape. http://inkscape.org/ That worked for me. Firefox is supposed to read SVG, but all I got was text. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: p...@phk.freebsd.dk said: That is _exactly_ why you should use a vectorformat like SVG: Raster format is a waste of bytes for line graphics. Except that it doesn't work that way, at least for my simple test case. SVG is uncompressed text. PNG compresses well, at least for simple cases. PNG, 8K: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.png SVG, 46K: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.svg So you are saying that SVG can't work because one example of it is broken. Also, there are other vector formats, like Postscript and PDF. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
Hal Murray wrote: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said: I load screen shots into Corel Photo Paint 8 and resample the image to a good size for a web page somewhere between 600 and 800 pixels horizontally. === No, I didn't say that. Please be more careful in your quoting. I don't even own a copy of that program. === Hal Murray wrote: Where did 600 or 800 come from? I don't care what the answer is. I'm just curious and/or want to make graphs that most people can easily use. Here are 3 samples: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-1200x800.png http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-800x600.png http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-640x480.png = Hal, As my minimum screen size is 1024 x 600 (on a netbook PC) I would prefer 800 x 600, although with the browser title and address bars, and the tabs for the windows, perhaps 500 pixels high would be better, and perhaps 1000 pixels wide. It might also be worth considering that the aspect ratio of displays these days is more often 16:10 (or even 16:9), so a 4:3 aspect ratio graph may not be making the best use of the screen area. My browser is not normally run maximised on my PCs with a 1600 pixel wide display, so the 1200 wide would still exceed the window width. I do like the idea of linking to a full resolution image, where the actual size is appropriate for the precision of the data being viewed. Magnus - your GNUPLOT is very nice! But the mouse tracking doesn't work on the iPad, or on an Android phone. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
The absolute best thing would be to make the graphs in some vector format. Maybe PDF files. Raster plots don't scale. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ Excellent idea, Chris. David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On 08/06/2012 09:10 AM, David J Taylor wrote: The absolute best thing would be to make the graphs in some vector format. Maybe PDF files. Raster plots don't scale. PDF is not ideal for web-publishing, you might provide a PDF too, but SVG is better if you want vectorized. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
In message 501f80cc.2090...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: On 08/06/2012 09:10 AM, David J Taylor wrote: The absolute best thing would be to make the graphs in some vector format. Maybe PDF files. Raster plots don't scale. PDF is not ideal for web-publishing, you might provide a PDF too, but SVG is better if you want vectorized. I can highly recommend SVG, I use it in Pylt, examples: http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/hp85662_a.svg http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/hp85662_b.svg Try pressing '+' and '-' in your browser... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
In message 68331.1344242...@critter.freebsd.dk, Poul-Henning Kamp writes: In message 501f80cc.2090...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: On 08/06/2012 09:10 AM, David J Taylor wrote: The absolute best thing would be to make the graphs in some vector format. Maybe PDF files. Raster plots don't scale. PDF is not ideal for web-publishing, you might provide a PDF too, but SVG is better if you want vectorized. I can highly recommend SVG, I use it in Pylt, examples: http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/hp85662_a.svg http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/hp85662_b.svg Try pressing '+' and '-' in your browser... That's probably CTRL and '+'/'-' actually... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
The screen sizes were the maximum resolutions of the older display technology. 640*480 was the original VGA and the 800*600 was the upgraded XVGA. Website images are generally 640*480 range with the option to click for full size. Depending on the software being used, there may be multiple columns on the page and a larger image will be clipped. Also, many people __still__ do not enjoy full bandwidth for their internet connections (I am one of these poor sods) and a full-size image is not polite as it takes a large chunk of bandwidth to download before the person can see if it is of interest to them. Dave (who is rural and loving it -- except for broadband of course...) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 22:36 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?) david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said: I load screen shots into Corel Photo Paint 8 and resample the image to a good size for a web page somewhere between 600 and 800 pixels horizontally. Where did 600 or 800 come from? I don't care what the answer is. I'm just curious and/or want to make graphs that most people can easily use. Here are 3 samples: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-1 200x800.png http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-8 00x600.png http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/coax/Front-5ns-6 40x480.png -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
In message 19D39F6978C14DE88D869CF287CAA920@photo, DaveH writes: Also, many people __still__ do not enjoy full bandwidth for their internet connections (I am one of these poor sods) and a full-size image is not polite as it takes a large chunk of bandwidth to download before the person can see if it is of interest to them. That is _exactly_ why you should use a vectorformat like SVG: Raster format is a waste of bytes for line graphics. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] What size graphs do people like? (How big is yourscreen?)
On 08/06/2012 11:08 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message19D39F6978C14DE88D869CF287CAA920@photo, DaveH writes: Also, many people __still__ do not enjoy full bandwidth for their internet connections (I am one of these poor sods) and a full-size image is not polite as it takes a large chunk of bandwidth to download before the person can see if it is of interest to them. That is _exactly_ why you should use a vectorformat like SVG: Raster format is a waste of bytes for line graphics. Depends. Sometimes there is a lot of data that lines up on the same row of pixels and take forever to load with close to none progress. There is no right here. Just different extremes. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
