RE: F....
Agreed! Let Costin and the others make their job and then let code talk. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 12:55 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: F Whoever wants to develop on tomcat 4 does so. Whoever wants to develop on tomcat 3 does so. +1 Eventually a winning container will emerge. Forcing people to abandon the current, production release will not work - they'll just go elsewhere, that won't help anyone. If everyone concentrates on reusable code... whatever, it's Xmas, go to the pub.
RE: F....
-Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 23:26 Tomcat 3.2 has *only* happened because Tomcat 4.0 wasn't ready. And I wonder when is it going to be. That is why I want the 3.3 alternative. Remember the history of Tomcat 4.0 and the fact that if Sun didn't donate a bunch of cruft software, we would have spent the time working on JServ 2.0 which is now what Tomcat 4.0 is. The fact of the matter is that because we had to deal with 3.x and support improving it that delayed the development of 4.0 to not being ready until now. So, a wrong decision was taken accepting Tomcat 3 instead of JServ 2??? Wrong decisions are possible at Tomcat then. So, why are you deffending voted decisions as the "irrefutable true path"? Have fun, Paulo Gaspar
Re: F**k It. (off topic)
I don't mean to sound as though I am a prude, but we do a lot of our consulting at customer sites, much of it face-to-face with the customer's staff and management. I can control what messages I read and when but I cannot control when people are in my office and when the message alert with the Subject: line pops up on the screen. I can't do much to diffuse the anger but I would like to ask that we try to reserve our anger (and expletives), when appropriate, to the message body rather than the Subject: line so that I don't have to act like I was caught browsing porn sites every time my customers walk into my office. Thanks in advance.
Re: F**k It. (off topic)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't mean to sound as though I am a prude, but we do a lot of our consulting at customer sites, much of it face-to-face with the customer's staff and management. I can control what messages I read and when but I cannot control when people are in my office and when the message alert with the Subject: line pops up on the screen. I can't do much to diffuse the anger but I would like to ask that we try to reserve our anger (and expletives), when appropriate, to the message body rather than the Subject: line so that I don't have to act like I was caught browsing porn sites every time my customers walk into my office. Thanks in advance. Exact same scenerio here. I second that.
Re: F... It.
The future of Tomcat 3.3 seems to be outside Apache now. It's really sad. Sorry, but that's not what I said Henry. Last month I even came up with a proposal that got accepted (but never turned to reality) on how to handle this situation... But it seems to me, that everyone here is more interested in flaming others rather than read and discuss... And this sucks... I'm not saying to kick the 3.3 proposal out, I'm just saying that, from what I see 3.3 is as different from 3.2 as 4.0 is, it is a different container. And because of this, rules for revolution and evolution are given: - old container = bugfixes, improvements (TC3.2) - current container = developement (Catalina) - new container(s) = proposals (whatever you want for 5.0) Again ?? Then what about tomcat3.2 - is it as different from 3.1 as 3.3 is from 3.2? Is there any change in 3.3 that you feel is wrong ? You can send your -1 now, with the technical arguments for that. I already accepted the -1 on implementing Servlet2.3 - even if it wasn't on technnical but political reasons, and I'm open to any other changes. Take the "changes" file, find something you feel is "making 3.3 as different from 3.2 as 4.0 is" and send it to the list. Evolution doesn't mean everything is frozen and you make only small changes here and there. And making tomcat3.3 faster, cleaner and more modular than 3.2 requires a number of changes. Generic statements are easy to make - what do you think is part of 3.2 architecture and isn't part of 3.3 ? Yes, some interfaces were removed - because they were duplicating what Interceptor is doing ( and the interfaces were introduced after 3.1 for the same reason, making the code cleaner ). It's one thing to make the code more modular and cleaner, and another thing to "change the architecture" and the design patterns. Costin
Re: F....
on 12/21/2000 2:18 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tomcat3.2 is a big step forward versus Tomcat3.1 - but it still have many issues - take a look at the ContextManager in 3.3, compare it with 3.2 - there are still many undefined behaviors, even code from 3.0. Tomcat 3.2 has *only* happened because Tomcat 4.0 wasn't ready. Remember the history of Tomcat 4.0 and the fact that if Sun didn't donate a bunch of cruft software, we would have spent the time working on JServ 2.0 which is now what Tomcat 4.0 is. The fact of the matter is that because we had to deal with 3.x and support improving it that delayed the development of 4.0 to not being ready until now. It is this duplication of effort that needs to stop. We need to quit sitting back and trying to support something that should have been dead long ago. -jon
Re: F....
I have been following this insane tomcat 4 vs tomcat 3 debate with increasing amazement. I cannot understand why this has become such a big issue. Attempting to tell an open source developer what to write is pretty much counter to ESR's cited prime motivation for open source development - scratching a personal itch! If Costin (bless his soul) wants to make TC3 a better product, then he has my own profound thanks! As a user of tomcat (I use tomcat every day as part of my job) am very keen to see tomcat 3.x development continue as long as tomcat 4 falls short of release quality. Until IIS integration and SSL client certificate support are considered release quality in tomcat 4, I am keen to see them developed on tomcat 3. In fact, I believe that the time to abandon tomcat 3 development will come at around the point that new features are able to reach release quality as fast on tomcat 4 as on tomcat 3. The technology used in tomcat 3 is perfectly current. Forcing people into participating in development of a bleeding edge product in order to add features to tomcat seems pretty mercurial. Tomcat 3 is just becoming a premium quality product. There are two or three features still to be added to completely satisfy my own requirements of a servlet container. If we abandon development now in favour tomcat 4, tomcat will remain a bleeding edge product and may never reach the mainstream release quality that I for one would like to see. What I suggest is this: Whoever wants to develop on tomcat 4 does so. Whoever wants to develop on tomcat 3 does so. Versions are managed in a similar manner to the linux development/stable trees, with code from TC4 merged back into TC3 whenever the TC3 guys feels that this enhances the product. (And no complaining about the tomcat 3 guys 'copying' the TC4 guys - that is kind of the point of open source!) Cheers and Merry Christmas! --- Aaron Knauf Implementation Consultant Genie Systems Ltd Auckland, New Zealand Ph. +64-9-573 3310 x812, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geniesystems.com Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22/12/2000 11:26 Please respond to tomcat-dev To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: F on 12/21/2000 2:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tomcat3.2 is a big step forward versus Tomcat3.1 - but it still have many issues - take a look at the ContextManager in 3.3, compare it with 3.2 - there are still many undefined behaviors, even code from 3.0. Tomcat 3.2 has *only* happened because Tomcat 4.0 wasn't ready. Remember the history of Tomcat 4.0 and the fact that if Sun didn't donate a bunch of cruft software, we would have spent the time working on JServ 2.0 which is now what Tomcat 4.0 is. The fact of the matter is that because we had to deal with 3.x and support improving it that delayed the development of 4.0 to not being ready until now. It is this duplication of effort that needs to stop. We need to quit sitting back and trying to support something that should have been dead long ago. -jon
Re: F....
Well, I am not that good at getting all this flames ( and to be honest I'm not used to get the "thanks" that I got lately - mostly in private mail - it looks like a very different world, and an wonderful Christmas gift for me ) In any case, I'll try to stay away from further arguments - I know now that I'm doing the right thing, and until I finish the development and what I started there is no point in endless discussions. I'm very close, and if I stay out of mail I'll probably be ready to the first milestone in early January. When it'll be ready I'll make the proposal and then you can vote whatever you feel, based on the quality of the code or your private interests. As long as there is an open development branch in jakarta-tomcat tree and I am a commiter I'll accept any critics for code that I write, but I don't think Pier or Jon have any authority or right to tell me what to do or to not write code, for any reason. This is open source development and as long as they don't prove that my code is bad, I'll keep coding. If they don't like it - I'm sure they can ask for a vote to remove my account ( or just do it ). I think I did a decent job during the tomcat3.2 development ( not perfect, of course, because I'm not perfect either ) - and enough users and fellow developers feel I'm still doing a good job on 3.3 - so the argument of "community united against 3.3 " or "that's the community decision" doesn't seem to hold water. As for: Tomcat 3.2 has *only* happened because Tomcat 4.0 wasn't ready. Well, thank you for letting it happen ( and thanks for letting us doing development for a year and so without too much s**t ). As for resources - remember that in open source you must go get them, and it's quite a bit of competition for smart people. If tomcat 3.x is able to get smart people involved you should say thanks, and not to tell them they're stupid. And as an open source developer you should remember that code lives and dies on it's own quality and the quality of the people who contribute to it. Remember the history of Tomcat 4.0 and the fact that if Sun didn't donate a bunch of cruft software, we would have spent the time working on JServ 2.0 Yes, a bunch of cruft software, with a good design and some great ideas. Tomcat3.0 had pretty bad code, 3.1 was stable and usable ( IMHO ), 3.2 is faster and a bit cleaner - not too bad for a "cruft" software ( while 4.0 is still, after a year, "the next big thing" ). That's probably another proof that in software, the design is what matters the most. QED. As of JServ 2.0 - it has in common with JServ 1.0 the same as Tomcat4.0 has with Tomcat 3.x - the name. If you remember I spent some time on the jserv list trying to improve the design, and I also spent lots of time after Catalina was announced pointing problems with the design - I don't think you have too many contributors who spent so much time on it. I gave up on Jserv2.0, and I gave up on Catalina - either I can't present my ideas or nobody was listening. ( you can check the archives - like the endless flame-war about how un-important is the web server or how bad is to do in-process java ) which is now what Tomcat 4.0 is. The fact of the matter is that because we had to deal with 3.x and support improving it that delayed the development of 4.0 to not being ready until now. "we had to deal with 3.x " "we had to support improving it" Damn, I thought we are still individuals - and most of your mail talks about "we". Are you talking for ASF ? For your company ? For you and your friends ? Or for us, the tomcat comunity ? And one more thing - it's very important for me to 'discharge' myself from having tomcat 3.x as my "baby": - the original design is done by a certain James ( AFAIK ). And it's damn good, better than any other container I know. - most of the server adapter is done by Pier, Stefanno, Jon - the mod_jserv code - and Gal - the new mod_jk, based on mod_jserv. And there are very good pieces of code - yes, not too much comments, but still great code. - most of the bug fixes were done by countless contributors, and most of the commits are either Larry or Nacho. Probably they should feel the most that tomcat3 is their baby, as they spent lots of time caring for it ( while I was just playing with it ). - Logging - Alex, based on initial ideas from Anil ( both had many other contributions ). I didn't liked it initially, but it is a very good contribution with some great ideas in it. - sandbox - Glenn. That's the area I felt I want to contribute the most, but Glenn did it faster and better. - SSL adapter - based on Harish's ideas - Interceptor architecture ( the main architectural thing I added to tomcat ) - is copied from Apache, I don't know who is the original author but unfortunately it's not my child. - most of the refactoring is again based on Apache design ( with a lot of inspiration from Apache2.0 - take a look at the MPM modules, etc ) - The
