Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
snip
   I suspect that it is relatively small and, when you
  introduce sophisticated state and caching options, it may be faster.
 
 Relative to what?  To the web server dealing with it?  I would suspect
 it's actually relatively BIG compared to that.  I'm certainly willing to
 be proved wrong though.
/snip

As we agree, we just need to get the data.  I think there should be a
lot of standard testing out there that is more reliable than I am
probably going to do off the top.  I will look around a bit and maybe
someone will chime in with some help here.


snip
 That might be true... one other point to remember though is that the
 more unusual things you do, the harder it will be to get people able
 to maintain it.  I fight standards at work as much as the next guy just
 because creative people don't like standards forced on them, but clever
 solutions usual equal difficult to maintain solutions.  I don't think
 I'm telling you something you don't know :)  But, that's not my
 argument, so don't spend any time on it.  Just another side track we
 could go down :)
/snip

I am 100% in favor of keeping maintenance low.  That was my original
primary objective going here.  I could not believe how much time was
being spent on URLs, base tags, etc., etc., with all the concomittant
confusion throughout the development process.


snip
  I think the bigger hit is reading the danged thing.  This obviously is
  especially so when there is an ongoing use of changing the JSP page.
  This has no penalty with ProtocolPages.
/snip

I just mean the more complicated parsing rules that go with JSP, as
well as everything else.
snip 
 That's what I like, woman that are easy to please :) (You were left SO
 wide open there I just couldn't resist!)
/snip

Heh, heh!  Remind me never to fence with you, Frank.  Actually, and
this is really off topic, in my milieu I am dearly loved because I
have really learned how to be a friend, husband, etc.  This has been
the largest accomplishment by far in my life and the one I most
cherish.

snip
 * (Does the app server pass the response back to the web server to
 serve, or does it serve it directly to the client at that point?  I'm
 actually not sure, but let's be optimistic and say the web server is out
 of the equation at this point, although I suspect that's NOT the case)
 In any case, images are returned to client-
/snip

I think that the ResourceAction class actually acts as the web server
and that is why the return is null.  The class writes to the responses
output stream and that is all the server does, right?


  FileInputStream fis   = new FileInputStream(fileName);
  BufferedInputStream bis   = new BufferedInputStream(fis);
  byte[]  bytes = new byte[bis.available()];
  OutputStreamos= response.getOutputStream();
  bis.read(bytes);
  os.write(bytes);
  os.flush();
  os.close();

snip
 There is clearly more work done with the second chart because the app
 server is now involved.  How costly is all that work?
/snip

Again, I am not sure about this, and it is the sort of thing that one
typically makes mistakes about if one does not go by the data.  So, I
am going to hold judgment on it, but my intuitions are not running in
the same direction as yours.  I keep remembering how the following of
good OOP principles can make Java applications faster that C
applications doing the exact same thing, although most think that
would not be the case.  Just the other day I was reading about a guy
who tried and failed to do some imaging work in early Java and had to
go to C.  Now Java is faster in that area.
snip 
 You could make the argument that because any servlet-based application
 is incurring those costs with most requests, what's the big deal about
 adding a few more?  To a degree that would be a reasonable argument, but
 scalability is most certainly at risk because viewed from the point of
 view of the app server, a single page really corresponds to 10 app
 server requests.
/snip

I think there are trade-offs that will need to be measured.  For
example, I can envision with some of the stuff I do creating whole
pages dynamically with images.  The new Java imaging stuff is really,
really, cool on this.  Flash has its side too.

snip
 Even if it's all done in the most efficient way, those ten requests
 look, for all intents and purposes, like 10 simultaneous USERS (assuming
 1 request per user).  So, maybe your app server can handle 100
 concurrent requests... If the web server was allowed to serve the
 images, your app server still has 100 slots available to service
 requests, which corresponds generally to 100 concurrent users... If it's
 serving 10 images for each physical user though, now you can only
 service 10 concurrent users, so you've reduced your overall server
 capacity (as viewed by outside clients) by 90%.  Ouch.
/snip

Now just one moment, Bub!  LOL  ;-)  You really are not seeing the
ways you can save time here.  For 

Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
I think the worst case is 22 versus 32, Frank. with 10 images.  See
your note and then my reasoning below that.


snip
 Even if it's all done in the most efficient way, those ten requests
 look, for all intents and purposes, like 10 simultaneous USERS (assuming
 1 request per user).  So, maybe your app server can handle 100
 concurrent requests... If the web server was allowed to serve the
 images, your app server still has 100 slots available to service
 requests, which corresponds generally to 100 concurrent users... If it's
 serving 10 images for each physical user though, now you can only
 service 10 concurrent users, so you've reduced your overall server
 capacity (as viewed by outside clients) by 90%.  Ouch.
 
 I fully acknowledge those are rough, worst-case numbers... I certainly
 don't mean to imply that your approach is 90% worse.  Not at all!  Just
 trying to illustrate the problem, as I see it, in certain environments.
/snip

app server = (AS) 
struts server = (SS)
req = request
-- = pass
res = response

With ResourceAction
___
First case HTML = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
Second image JPEG (say) = req (AS) -- res (SS) = 3
.
Tenth image JPEG (say) = req (AS) -- res (SS) = 3

WIthout ResourceAction
___
First case HTML = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
First image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
Second image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
.
Tenth image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2

This is 22 versus 32.  Apparently you forgot (I think?) that the app
server has to handle ten images too.  They don't just go out with the
page, although we are looking at this in a very oversimplified sense.

There is no question that the AS is quicker with HTML than the SS, but
I am not so sure about the images.  The SS may be faster.  There is
lots of room here for tuning.


-- 
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.

~Dakota Jack~

You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

~Native Proverb~

Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be
crows.  We are poor . . . but we are free.

~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~

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Re: Updating webapps in a running production cluster.

2005-01-30 Thread Peter Rossbach
Hey Robert,
i have also successfull test the cluster with mod_jk2.0.4 but this 
module is out of date and unsupported.

Only the mod_jk is under development.
s. http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/connectors-doc/
Regards
Peter

Roberto Cosenza schrieb:
I do mean mod_jk2. Could this be the problem?
/roberto
- Original Message -
From: Peter Rossbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomcat Users List tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Updating webapps in a running production cluster.
Please update to Apache 2.0.52 and I hope you mean mod_jk 1.2.8 not a
mod_jk2
Regards
Peter
Roberto Cosenza schrieb:
 

We used :
jakarta-tomcat-5.5.4
apache 2.0.49
mod_jk2 (jakarta-tomcat-connectors-1.2.8-src)
Linux webster2 2.4.26 #11 SMP Thu Apr 22 13:16:46 CEST 2004 i686 i686 i386
GNU/Linux
jdk-1_5_0_01-linux-i586.bin
CATALINA_OPTS='-Xmx512m -Xms256m -XX:MaxPermSize=256M'
I will test a new version and let you know.
- Original Message -
From: Peter Rossbach [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomcat Users List tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Updating webapps in a running production cluster.
Hello,
with which tomcat version you test this, please try the new 5.5.7 and
tell us the result! :-)
Please tell us your env, Apache, mod_jk  JDK, OS
Thanx
Peter
PS: You can find my cluster dev template at
http://tomcat.objektpark.org/examples/05_02_tomcat_example.tar.gz,
Sorry the docs are german and it works with tomcat 5.5.5m jdk 5, apache
2.0.52, mod_jk 1.2.8 on Windows/Linux
Roberto Cosenza schrieb:

   

Sorry if I insist with this post.
Has anybody succeeded in updating a  webapp in a tomcat cluster without
loosing (any)requests?
I´m wondering if this is possible at all with tomcat.
If we don´t provide a solution we are forced to switch to an other servlet
container :-
Does anybody know if moving to Jboss, with tomcat as a servlet container,
will help?
Thanx
- Original Message -
From: Roberto Cosenza [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomcat Users List tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Updating webapps in a running production cluster.


 

We have done some testing in this direction.
Two tomcat in a cluster, with session replication.
Shutdown B, update B, restart B
Shutdown A, update A, restartAB
What we experience is that, when shutting down any of the two servers.
1) Few requests are lost (let's say, on our machine, for 0.30 seconds?)
2) Objects stored in the session disappear temporarly, causing eventually
annoing npe's.
We were wondering if it is possible to achieve an higher reliability but

   

we

 


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Re: Where is jkstatus function in jk version 1.2.8?

2005-01-30 Thread Peter Rossbach
Hey Richard,
I hope also that Mladen can add this feature to next mod_jk release. :-)
At the Apache 2.x cvs Head mod_proxy_ajp has a very fine status page.
Peter
Richard Mixon (qwest) schrieb:
I understand that the jk 1.2.8 connector supercedes the deprecated jk2
connector. I had read previous posting that indicated version 1.2.8 of
jk contained equivalent or better function/features than jk2.
However the jk2 connector contains documentation on a jkstatus
administration interface that seems to offer monitoring and (maybe) some
management functions.
I do not see this in the jk documentation. Is that feature there?
Thanks - Richard

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RE: [OT] Advertising website

2005-01-30 Thread Peter Crowther
 From: Didier McGillis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 One trick that I know of and requires some software.  Is to 
 setup 4 to 5 
 sites filled with links back to your pages, and similar 
 content, and of 
 course you link to those sites.

If Google notice you spamming the index in this way then they reserve
the right not to list your site.  Also, it appears they're now
autodetecting the IP addresses of the 'copy' sites and are reducing the
ranking of sites that are hosted at the same IP.  So if you *are* going
to risk this, you'll need sites hosted with different people.

- Peter

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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Frank W. Zammetti
Dakota Jack wrote:
I just mean the more complicated parsing rules that go with JSP, as
well as everything else.
Ok, gotcha.  But, this only applies for the first access to the JSP, 
right?  From then on it's a servlet invocation (which is more expensive 
than returning just a plain'old HTML document, right?  But now I am 
splitting hairs)

Heh, heh!  Remind me never to fence with you, Frank.  Actually, and
this is really off topic, in my milieu I am dearly loved because I
have really learned how to be a friend, husband, etc.  This has been
the largest accomplishment by far in my life and the one I most
cherish.
That's all that counts in the end.  I have a wife of ten years and two 
great kids (well, most of the time they are great anyway), and although 
I have to remind myself of it sometimes because I get so wrapped up in 
other things that aren't as important, they are without a doubt my 
greatest accomplishment.

I think that the ResourceAction class actually acts as the web server
and that is why the return is null.  The class writes to the responses
output stream and that is all the server does, right?
I thought so too at first, but upon further reflection I'm not so 
sure... If a request comes in to the web server and then it forwards it 
on to the app server, that would mean at some very low level that the 
web server was passing along the connection to the app server... I'm not 
so sure it's anything that complex... It may be that the app server 
renders the response stream, but then passes it back to the web server 
to return to the client.  The bottom line though is that we're talking a 
level low enough that I don't know the answer for sure.

  Again, I am not sure about this, and it is the sort of thing that one
typically makes mistakes about if one does not go by the data.  So, I
am going to hold judgment on it, but my intuitions are not running in
the same direction as yours.  I keep remembering how the following of
good OOP principles can make Java applications faster that C
applications doing the exact same thing, although most think that
would not be the case.  Just the other day I was reading about a guy
who tried and failed to do some imaging work in early Java and had to
go to C.  Now Java is faster in that area.
snip 
I too await the data :)  But, I think you'd have to agree that for your 
approach to wind up being faster, much like when Java programs are 
faster than C programs, it must be due to some hidden optimization going 
on.  I mean, on an operation-per-operation basis, C will ALWAYS beat 
Java... Simply put, there will always be less machine code ops going on 
with a C program at the lowest levels (assuming they algorithmically 
equivalent) than a Java program.  But, because a Java program can be 
optimized at runtime, that's where the speed gains occur that you can't 
get with C.

Something similar must be happening if your approach winds up being 
faster.  All things being equal (ceteris paribus), that's the only 
logical conclusion to reach.  That doesn't make it the right one of 
course :)  The data will be the decider...

I think there are trade-offs that will need to be measured.  For
example, I can envision with some of the stuff I do creating whole
pages dynamically with images.  The new Java imaging stuff is really,
really, cool on this.  Flash has its side too.
No argument there... it's the same with OOP vs. strictly procedural 
code... if we assume we're always talking a straight compile to machine 
code and similar optimizations in both, procedural code should generally 
be faster for the same reason I talked about above.  Clearly though, the 
benefits of an OOP approach outweigh any difference.  Same could be true 
here.

  Now just one moment, Bub!  LOL  ;-)  You really are not seeing the
ways you can save time here.  For example, there is such a thing as
caching, pragmas and expiry headers which can be set with a response
in a way that the meta tags just cannot handle.  
But now your pushing those caching decisions back on the browser, right? 
 I thought one of your basic premises was to not trust the browser to 
construct URLs and such?  Wouldn't you have the same distrust for 
caching? (and probably worse since that is at least at the users' 
discrection)

There will be savings
of creating no calls where pure HTML would be lost.  There will be
other things like this too.  Remember too that the ResourceAction
class is acting as a multithreaded alternative mini-server.  Indeed,
the approach allows us to get the images, for example, from some other
server that is maximized to do just this.  Conceivably that could be
quicker for cached images.  Remember I said conceivably.  The
ability to be flexible can make for great rewards in efficiency and
fluidity that are not immediately obvious.
Granted, some additional flexibility might outweigh any problems.  If 
you rolled my BLOBServerAction into your ResourceAction, then you could 
transparently serve images from 

Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Frank W. Zammetti
Dakota Jack wrote:
app server = (AS) 
struts server = (SS)
req = request
-- = pass
res = response
You lost me here already... What's the difference between the app server 
and the struts server?  Isn't Struts running IN your app server?

With ResourceAction
___
First case HTML = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
Second image JPEG (say) = req (AS) -- res (SS) = 3
.
Tenth image JPEG (say) = req (AS) -- res (SS) = 3
WIthout ResourceAction
___
First case HTML = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
First image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
Second image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
.
Tenth image JPEG (say) = req (AS) res (AS) = 2
This is 22 versus 32.  Apparently you forgot (I think?) that the app
server has to handle ten images too.  They don't just go out with the
page, although we are looking at this in a very oversimplified sense.
I don't see how you got 22 OR 32! :)  The first request from the client 
is for the HTML document, right?  So that's one request.  The browser 
then sees ten img tags, regardless of what they point to.  So for each 
one it makes a request.  That's 10 requests, right?  So it's 11 in all 
from the client to the server (ignoring for the moment whether 
server means app server alone or web server in front of app server, or 
whatever other configuration you might dream up).

The only different between the two approaches we've been discussing is 
what on the server is going to handle each of those 11 requests... Is 
it a web server sending back a static HTML page for the first request, 
and then an image for each of the subsequent 10 image requests, or is it 
a web server returning the HTML page and then an app server returning 
the images, or an app server returning the page AND the images?

There is no question that the AS is quicker with HTML than the SS, but
I am not so sure about the images.  The SS may be faster.  There is
lots of room here for tuning.
Let me ask you this question... If you are accessing a web site, and you 
connect directly to the Internet, is that, ignoring things like 
caching and such, generally going to be faster than going through a 
proxy?  I'd hope you would say yes.  Now, clearly, if the proxy is doing 
caching and/or other optimizations, it might turn out to be faster, but 
that further proves my point: the web server is like the proxy in this 
example.

--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
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[VOTE][RESULT] Tomcat 5.5.7 Stability

2005-01-30 Thread Yoav Shapira
The Apache Jakarta Tomcat team is proud to announce that Tomcat 5.5.7 has been
voted stable after substantial evaluation and testing.  The vote thread is
archived at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=11067421773r=1w=2 among other 
places.

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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
snip
  I think that the ResourceAction class actually acts as the web server
  and that is why the return is null.  The class writes to the responses
  output stream and that is all the server does, right?
 
 I thought so too at first, but upon further reflection I'm not so
 sure... If a request comes in to the web server and then it forwards it
 on to the app server, that would mean at some very low level that the
 web server was passing along the connection to the app server... I'm not
 so sure it's anything that complex... It may be that the app server
 renders the response stream, but then passes it back to the web server
 to return to the client.  The bottom line though is that we're talking a
 level low enough that I don't know the answer for sure.
/snip

I am certain on this one, because you can do this sort of thing
*without* the web or app servers at all.  I do this fairly frequently
with code not unlike and heavily borrowing in principle from Jason
Hunters HttpMessage and HttpsMessage in COS.  The ResourceAction sends
the response and ends the whole process by returning null.

snip
 I too await the data :)  But, I think you'd have to agree that for your
 approach to wind up being faster, much like when Java programs are
 faster than C programs, it must be due to some hidden optimization going
 on.  I mean, on an operation-per-operation basis, C will ALWAYS beat
 Java... 
/snip

Well, maybe on on an operation basis.  An operation by any other
name is still an operation.  However, I don't disagree and would
merely quibble about the language and the description.
snip
 Simply put, there will always be less machine code ops going on
 with a C program at the lowest levels (assuming they algorithmically
 equivalent) than a Java program.  
/snip

Well put!  Yes!

snip
 But, because a Java program can be
 optimized at runtime, that's where the speed gains occur that you can't
 get with C.
/snip

At the very least this is a main place to gain speed: the Tortoise and
the Hare come to mind.


snip
ceteris paribus
/snip

Heh, I meant to tell you last time, this is Latin, not Greek.  LOL   ///;-)

www.m-w.com

Main Entry: ce·te·ris pa·ri·bus
Pronunciation: 'kA-tr-s-'par--bs, 'ke-, 'se-
Function: adverb
Etymology: New Latin, other things being equal
: if all other relevant things, factors, or elements remain unaltered

snip
 But now your pushing those caching decisions back on the browser, right?
   I thought one of your basic premises was to not trust the browser to
 construct URLs and such?  Wouldn't you have the same distrust for
 caching? (and probably worse since that is at least at the users'
 discrection)
/snip

The answers are no, yes, no.  Setting caching in the response object
is not equivalent to setting caching in the meta tags.  This is why
the ResourceAction has an edge.  Note also that the setting of cache,
pragma and expires are runtime alterable, and can override the meta
tags, in ResourceAction.  I left those decisions out of the code I
sent you.  Did you notice where I added in it response to someone's
query on that?

snip
 Granted, some additional flexibility might outweigh any problems.  If
 you rolled my BLOBServerAction into your ResourceAction, then you could
 transparently serve images from WEB-INF *or* a database, transparently
 to the user and front-end.  That's a nice bit of flexibility to be sure.
/snip

And, if you imagined more radical uses of images for whole pages,
etc., then you might start thinking about BufferedImages cached in
sessions, etc.


snip
 I leave the leg-work to you :)
/snip

You got it!

Jack

-- 
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.

~Dakota Jack~

You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

~Native Proverb~

Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be
crows.  We are poor . . . but we are free.

~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~

This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the
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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
Too late when I sent this.  Let me make the necessary alterations to
the nomenclature.  Sorry!

web server = df. (WS)
app server = df. (AS)
request= df. req
response   = df. res
  = df. passing the control

With ResourceAction

1.0  WS req WS res HTML  [2]
1.1  WS req  AS res [3]
1.2  WS req  AS res [3]
1.3  WS req  AS res [3]
1.4  WS req  AS res [3]
1.5  WS req  AS res [3]
1.6  WS req  AS res [3]
1.7  WS req  AS res [3]
1.8  WS req  AS res [3]
1.9  WS req  AS res [3]
1.10 WS req  AS res [3]

 Total 32

Without ResourceAction

1.0  WS req WS res HTML  [2]
1.1  WS req AS res [2]
1.2  WS req AS res [2]
1.3  WS req AS res [2]
1.4  WS req AS res [2]
1.5  WS req AS res [2]
1.6  WS req AS res [2]
1.7  WS req AS res [2]
1.8  WS req AS res [2]
1.9  WS req AS res [2]
1.10 WS req AS res [2]

 Total 22

However, let me note, once again, that we can make it 22 to 22 by
simply sending the attributes that are relevant back to a different
server.  For example, we could have

  img src='http://blahblahblah.com/ResourceAction.do?file=whatever.gif'

Doing this, if we are talking about serving images to a large-scale
site, we could get rid of both the WS and the AS and use a SCS (small
custom server) optimized for this situation.  I do this sort of thing
constantly, *sub rosa*, on my sites.  This is probably quicker than
using WS to serve the images, and certainly so if the images are in
any way dynamic in nature and if we make use of the multithreading
opportunities that crop up in this situation.  But, this is going
afield.  And, this is only looking at the upside too.

Jack


-- 
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.

~Dakota Jack~

You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

~Native Proverb~

Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be
crows.  We are poor . . . but we are free.

~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~

This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information.
If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the
addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based
on this message or any information herein. If you have received this
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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Frank W. Zammetti
Dakota Jack wrote:
I am certain on this one, because you can do this sort of thing
*without* the web or app servers at all.  I do this fairly frequently
with code not unlike and heavily borrowing in principle from Jason
Hunters HttpMessage and HttpsMessage in COS.  The ResourceAction sends
the response and ends the whole process by returning null.
I agree, obviously you can take Tomcat for instance and use it to serve 
everything... I have a production app that is a single server running 
Tomcat and Oracle and that's it, no web server anywhere, everything is 
served from Tomcat whether it's a JSP, an image, an HTML document or 
whatever else.

The question that's in my mind though is what happens when you have a 
web server in front of Tomcat?  Just rendering to the response in a 
servlet might not be enough in that case... Think of a proxy analogy... 
Does the web server almost appear like a proxy?  In other words, a 
request comes in to the web server, does it (a) pass the connection to 
the app server to fulfill, at which point it's done and can service more 
requests, or (b) does it ask the app server for the resource, whatever 
it is, wait for the response from the app server and send it along to 
the client when the app server is done responding?  Same idea as a 
network proxy.

The point being, just because the app server CAN serve everything, 
doesn't necasserily mean it WILL with a web server in front.

But again, I don't know the answer here, it's just a question in my mind.
ceteris paribus
/snip
Heh, I meant to tell you last time, this is Latin, not Greek.  LOL   ///;-)
Really??  Well, I have something to yell at my Macroeconomics professor 
for then!  I know for sure she said it was Greek! :)

Funny aside... My Macroeconomics professor... her last name, and I 
couldn't have made this up, is Economopolous.  That just rules!

But now your pushing those caching decisions back on the browser, right?
 I thought one of your basic premises was to not trust the browser to
construct URLs and such?  Wouldn't you have the same distrust for
caching? (and probably worse since that is at least at the users'
discrection)
/snip
The answers are no, yes, no.  Setting caching in the response object
is not equivalent to setting caching in the meta tags.  This is why
the ResourceAction has an edge.  Note also that the setting of cache,
pragma and expires are runtime alterable, and can override the meta
tags, in ResourceAction.  I left those decisions out of the code I
sent you.  Did you notice where I added in it response to someone's
query on that?
I did notice, but my point is that the browser settings would override 
any tags or headers you set.  I might be wrong about that, but that 
would be my expectation.  After all, what good is a setting in my 
browser that says don't cache anything if a web site designer can come 
along and overrule that?  Surely the FOSS community would be up in arms 
over their loss of freedom, right?!? ;)

--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Frank W. Zammetti
I still don't understanding the 32 and 22... What do the [2] and [3]'s 
represent?

Dakota Jack wrote:
Too late when I sent this.  Let me make the necessary alterations to
the nomenclature.  Sorry!
web server = df. (WS)
app server = df. (AS)
request= df. req
response   = df. res
  = df. passing the control
With ResourceAction
1.0  WS req WS res HTML  [2]
1.1  WS req  AS res [3]
1.2  WS req  AS res [3]
1.3  WS req  AS res [3]
1.4  WS req  AS res [3]
1.5  WS req  AS res [3]
1.6  WS req  AS res [3]
1.7  WS req  AS res [3]
1.8  WS req  AS res [3]
1.9  WS req  AS res [3]
1.10 WS req  AS res [3]
 Total 32
Without ResourceAction
1.0  WS req WS res HTML  [2]
1.1  WS req AS res [2]
1.2  WS req AS res [2]
1.3  WS req AS res [2]
1.4  WS req AS res [2]
1.5  WS req AS res [2]
1.6  WS req AS res [2]
1.7  WS req AS res [2]
1.8  WS req AS res [2]
1.9  WS req AS res [2]
1.10 WS req AS res [2]
 Total 22
However, let me note, once again, that we can make it 22 to 22 by
simply sending the attributes that are relevant back to a different
server.  For example, we could have
  img src='http://blahblahblah.com/ResourceAction.do?file=whatever.gif'
Doing this, if we are talking about serving images to a large-scale
site, we could get rid of both the WS and the AS and use a SCS (small
custom server) optimized for this situation.  I do this sort of thing
constantly, *sub rosa*, on my sites.  This is probably quicker than
using WS to serve the images, and certainly so if the images are in
any way dynamic in nature and if we make use of the multithreading
opportunities that crop up in this situation.  But, this is going
afield.  And, this is only looking at the upside too.
Jack

If we are talking about dynamically-created resources, then I would tend 
to agree with your view.  But we have, at least as far as I was 
concerned, been talking about strictly static resources.

In that case, your basic premise boils down to, as I see it:
An app server running ResourceAction can serve resources more 
efficiently than a web server.

Again, strictly talking about static resources, I would be absolutely 
SCHOCKED to learn this is the case under most circumstances.  That would 
be like saying a Cadillac could beat a NASCAR vehicle in 1 ten-lap 
race... It might be able to under some circumstances, like the NASCAR 
driver being drunk!, and certainly there are some very nice trade-offs 
to driving the Caddy like more room and a better stereo, but in general 
you wouldn't expect the Caddy to lose.

A bit of hyperbole there, but the underlying point is what's important.
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
snip
 The question that's in my mind though is what happens when you have a
 web server in front of Tomcat?  Just rendering to the response in a
 servlet might not be enough in that case... 
/snip

*Before* ResourceAction returns null, the response output stream has
been written, flushed, and closed.   The only thing that the app
server or the web server have left to deal with is that null.  There
is no wrapper in this case and no proxy in the sense you are talking. 
The OutputStream from an HttpResponse object writes to the client.

snip
 The point being, just because the app server CAN serve everything,
 doesn't necasserily mean it WILL with a web server in front.
/snip

But, in this case, the OutputStream does and there is no pass it on
functionality in there that would incorporate any reference or use of
the web or app server.  The fact that this OutputStream ends the
process might be one of the factors favoring ResourceAction.

snip
 ceteris paribus
 
  /snip
 
  Heh, I meant to tell you last time, this is Latin, not Greek.  LOL   ///;-)
 
 Really??  Well, I have something to yell at my Macroeconomics professor
 for then!  I know for sure she said it was Greek! :)
 
 Funny aside... My Macroeconomics professor... her last name, and I
 couldn't have made this up, is Economopolous.  That just rules!
/snip

LOL  Economopolous!  Hilarious  Remember My Big Fat Greek Wedding
where the Greek guy has a way of turning everything to Greek history,
etc.?  Well, Ms. Economopolous is clearly Greek and her name is
Economic-city.  (Plato's Republic was really Politia which means
The City.  Republic comes from Republica which was a Latin
translation.)  Anyway, this is ALL ceteris paribus.  (You can tell
Latin from the endings, ibus is the dative plural.)
snip
 I did notice, but my point is that the browser settings would override
 any tags or headers you set.  I might be wrong about that, but that
 would be my expectation.  After all, what good is a setting in my
 browser that says don't cache anything if a web site designer can come
 along and overrule that?  Surely the FOSS community would be up in arms
 over their loss of freedom, right?!? ;)
/snip

The good is that the web site designer knows when a change has been
made and the assumption is that you are going to see what the web site
designer has to offer.  No?
Jack

-- 
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back.

~Dakota Jack~

You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

~Native Proverb~

Each man is good in His sight. It is not necessary for eagles to be
crows.  We are poor . . . but we are free.

~Hunkesni (Sitting Bull), Hunkpapa Sioux~

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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Dakota Jack
snip
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:11:24 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I still don't understanding the 32 and 22... What do the [2] and [3]'s
 represent?
/snip

A total of three possible processes (1) getting the request; (2)
passing the request to another server; (3) handling the response.

If you have them all, you have a three.  If only 1 and 3, then you have a two.


snip
 If we are talking about dynamically-created resources, then I would tend
 to agree with your view.  But we have, at least as far as I was
 concerned, been talking about strictly static resources.
/snip

If there are static resources, then we can get it down to 22 versus 22
by sending the images to a separate server.  Not only can we do this,
but we can send the images to a super efficient separate server if we
are talking about static images only.

snip
 An app server running ResourceAction can serve resources more
 efficiently than a web server.
/snip

Not that an app server is faster under any circumstances tha a web
server.  That really is not close to true.  I've seen the stats on
that one and I would doubt that they will ever be the same or close to
the same.  I would be as SCHOCKED as you (is this an Italian-Jewish
SHOCKED? ///;-) ) in that case.  What I am talking about is a custom
server for images which gets rid of a LOT of baggage, including
WEB-INF but having the same protections as being under WEB-INF.

snip
 Again, strictly talking about static resources, I would be absolutely
 SCHOCKED to learn this is the case under most circumstances.  That would
 be like saying a Cadillac could beat a NASCAR vehicle in 1 ten-lap
 race... It might be able to under some circumstances, like the NASCAR
 driver being drunk!, and certainly there are some very nice trade-offs
 to driving the Caddy like more room and a better stereo, but in general
 you wouldn't expect the Caddy to lose.
/snip

In this case the analogy, IF apt, is the reverse.  The custom server
is the NASCAR.  All the doodads needed on an app or a web server can
be pealed off and serious savings with multithreading, parsing
presumptions, etc. can be realized.

snip
 A bit of hyperbole there, but the underlying point is what's important.
/snip

I enjoyed the ride in the caddy.  Had the stereo on a good jazz
station in my mind with Lead Belly growling at me.  The metaphor is
apt but really, when you are talking a mini-quick-custom server,
reversed.  I am actually surprised that there are not more of these
little speedy and specialized servers around.

Jack



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RE: Catalina Log File - Coyote can't register jmx for protocol

2005-01-30 Thread HockChai Lim
Below is all I see in catalina_log.2005-01-29.txt
file:
2005-01-29 23:03:39 CoyoteConnector Coyote can't
register jmx for protocol.

I'm using win98, jdk1.4.2. Tomcat 4.1.


--- Caldarale, Charles R
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Whatever error or stack trace you were trying to
 include didn't make it through to the list.  Also,
 please tell us what version of Tomcat you're using,
 which JDK, which OS, etc.
 
  - Chuck
 
 
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Re: Trouble with XSL transforms with JSP

2005-01-30 Thread Alan Deikman
The error message you are getting I haven't seen before, but it seems 
that you have some text before the root element of your document.  This 
would be outside of the ? .. ? elements.

Personally, I wrote a java class to do my XSL transforms.  My JSPs call 
them, so other than that there is nothing XSLT in the JSPs themselves. 
The alternative is to use JSTL tags to do XSLT, which I have avoided by 
doing this.

Regards,
A.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have played with several versions of Tomcat, but now I have decided to study 
JSP in earnest and I downloaded the latest release two days ago. I have also 
upgraded my Java installation. The installation went relatively well and Tomcat 
is running on my machine.
I decided to start with something I know about, so I am attempting to transform 
an XML document to an HTML page via JSP. For a sanity check, I have downloaded 
O'Reilly's source code from JavaServer Pages, 3rd edition. Specifically, 
chapter 15 has an example of what I wish to do. The example works flawlessly, 
but my transform coughs up this error message.
... org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Content is not allowed in prolog.
I have researched this to some degree and found that this class sometimes gags 
on UTF-8 files. I checked my XML document in the Hex view of my editor and saw 
that there indeed were two bytes at the beginning of the file that were 
suggested as the source of my problem.
So I wrote an XSLT identity transform stylesheet that reproduces the document 
while changing the encoding from UTF-8 to ISO-8859-1. After running the 
transform of my XML document I checked it in the Hex view of my editor and the 
encoding appears now to be ISO-8859-1. I re-wrote my stylesheet so that its 
output encoding is ISO-8859-1 now also.
Nonetheless, I still get the same exception message when I attempt the transform. Does 
anyone know of a cookbook approach or checklist I can use to get over this 
hump? Thanks.
 

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Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Aris Javier
Hello!
 
How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
30 minutes of inactivity then a session will expire... In my apps,
i think 30minutes is too long.. i want 5 minutes of inactivity before
session expires... 
 
is it in server.xml? i only see connectionTimeout which is 2?
is connectionTimeout the same with sessionTimeout?
 
Thanks and regards,
Aris
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


Re: Failed JDBC connection hangs Tomcat

2005-01-30 Thread Hari Mailvaganam
The JTDS driver can cause the hanging you described - this has occured
in a test we did on Win 2k, SQL Server 2k, 1.5 JDK.

reagrds,

Hari Mailvaganam


On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:39:50 +0200, Igor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We have the same problem, that described in
 
 http://www.mail-archive.com/tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org/msg58799.html
 
 There is ServletContextListener in our application, that schedule two tasks 
 for repeated fixed rate execution on context initialization 
 (Timer.scheduleAtFixedRate).
 
 First task is executed every minute. It queries MS SQL server, second task is 
 executed every hour.
 
 If MS SQL server goes down, first task tries to use connection to database.
 After this Tomcat may hang: when user tries to download a page, he or her 
 will wait for a long time (more that 1 day).
 
 At the same time second taks (that is executed every hour) works as it was 
 expected: there are corresponding entries in log file.
 
 First task is executed in separate thread, and I do not understand how can it 
 hang whole tomcat (at least one context).
 
 We use JDK 1.5, tomcat 5.0.28. The same problem was on 1.4.2. Both for MS and 
 JTDS drivers :-(
 
 Does somebody know how can I prevent tomcat from hang in such situations?
 
 Thank you in advance,
 Igor
 
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Running Tomcat as service

2005-01-30 Thread ohaya
Hi,

I've been running (an older) version of Tomcat (4.1.31) on a test
Windows 2000 system for awhile as an application, and this weekend, I
wanted to try to run it as a service, so I downloaded and ran the .EXE
version from www.apache.org.

The installation seemed to go ok, but whenever the service starts, I am
having a problem...  I am seeing an error Exception in cleanup after
start failed.  From what I can tell, this is happening when Tomcat is
trying to deploy the examples.

I've been doing some searching on this, and although I didn't find
anything specific to it, I did find some hints, and I tried deleteing
the context for examples in the server.xml file.

After I did that, and restarted the Tomcat service, it looks like it
came up without errors, but of course, I don't have the examples
anymore.  This is all right, I guess, but I'm just curious as to why
this occurred, and if there was another resolution other than completely
deleting the context?

I think that I am also noticing that when Tomcat is run as a service (on
Windows 2000, at least), it seems to run a lot slower than when I ran it
as an application.

Is this normal, and is there anything that I can do to tune the
service configuration to improve its performance?

Thanks in advance,
Jim

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Re: [OT] Re: JSP under /WEB-INF folder PROTOCOL PAGES (ProtocolPages)

2005-01-30 Thread Frank W. Zammetti
Dakota Jack wrote:
The good is that the web site designer knows when a change has been
made and the assumption is that you are going to see what the web site
designer has to offer.  No?
Jack
I concur with the assumption, but I don't see it making any 
difference... Remember that what we affectionately refer to as the web 
these days is really a lot more than what it was originally.  One of the 
things that was originally intended is that the client is in complete 
control.  If the user wants to request a resource from a server, and 
they tell their browser via a setting that no, I WANT you to go ask 
that server EVERY SINGLE TIME for the resources, NEVER use what you 
might have in the local cache, then they should be allowed to do that, 
and whatever the web site creator wants you to do is irrelevant.  Same 
idea when the user can override fonts and colors and the like with their 
own local settings.

Nowadays though, us web app/site designers think WE know how best a 
client should view our site, and we actually go out of our way to make 
it so... how many times have you visited a site where the font is too 
small and the usual font size adjustments don't make any difference?  So 
you have to go in to setting and uncheck that User Font Sizes Specified 
By Site option.  Annoying, and not what was originally intended.

This is of course all only relevant to the extent that it supports my 
point, that anything you do on the server side to try and control 
caching is either (a) useless because the end user can override it 
anyway or (b) not in keeping with the spirit of the web, at least, not 
as originally intended.

Now I'm off on a bit of a tangent though :)
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
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Re: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Wendy Smoak
From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the entire 
container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml you edit. 
(Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)

--
Wendy Smoak 


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RE: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Aris Javier
I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?

thanks!
aris 

-Original Message-
From: Wendy Smoak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:25 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Edit session timeout

From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...

Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the entire
container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml you
edit. 
(Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)

--
Wendy Smoak 



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RE: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: Aris Javier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: Edit session timeout
 
 I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
 can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?

Not sure what you meant by my web.xml, since, as Wendy noted, there's a 
global one in the conf directory, as well as one in the WEB-INF directory of 
each web app.  The session timeout is usually in the global one, but can be 
overridden in each web app if needed.

 - Chuck


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RE: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Drew Jorgenson
session-config
session-timeout120/session-timeout
/session-config

Look, at the web.xml file inside the conf directory, the global web.xml
file that is. You can usually find this right above the mime-type
mapping definitions.

Drew.



On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 20:28, Aris Javier wrote:
 I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
 can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?
 
 thanks!
 aris 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Wendy Smoak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:25 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: Re: Edit session timeout
 
 From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
 
 Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the entire
 container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml you
 edit. 
 (Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)
 
 --
 Wendy Smoak 
 
 
 
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RE: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Aris Javier
Thanks Drew!

I found it.. =)

can I also use this setting per web app? by editing web.xml per web app?



-Original Message-
From: Drew Jorgenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:41 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Edit session timeout

session-config
session-timeout120/session-timeout
/session-config

Look, at the web.xml file inside the conf directory, the global web.xml
file that is. You can usually find this right above the mime-type
mapping definitions.

Drew.



On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 20:28, Aris Javier wrote:
 I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
 can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?
 
 thanks!
 aris
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Wendy Smoak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:25 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: Re: Edit session timeout
 
 From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
 
 Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the 
 entire container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml

 you edit.
 (Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)
 
 --
 Wendy Smoak
 
 
 
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Re: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Parsons Technical Services
Yes.
Doug
- Original Message - 
From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomcat Users List tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: Edit session timeout

Thanks Drew!
I found it.. =)
can I also use this setting per web app? by editing web.xml per web app?

-Original Message-
From: Drew Jorgenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:41 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Edit session timeout

   session-config
   session-timeout120/session-timeout
   /session-config
Look, at the web.xml file inside the conf directory, the global web.xml
file that is. You can usually find this right above the mime-type
mapping definitions.
Drew.

On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 20:28, Aris Javier wrote:
I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?
thanks!
aris
-Original Message-
From: Wendy Smoak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:25 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Edit session timeout
From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the 
entire container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml

you edit.
(Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)
--
Wendy Smoak

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RE: Edit session timeout

2005-01-30 Thread Aris Javier
Thanks Everybody!

=) 

-Original Message-
From: Parsons Technical Services [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:56 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Edit session timeout

Yes.

Doug
- Original Message -
From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomcat Users List tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: Edit session timeout


Thanks Drew!

I found it.. =)

can I also use this setting per web app? by editing web.xml per web app?



-Original Message-
From: Drew Jorgenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:41 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: Edit session timeout

session-config
session-timeout120/session-timeout
/session-config

Look, at the web.xml file inside the conf directory, the global web.xml
file that is. You can usually find this right above the mime-type
mapping definitions.

Drew.



On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 20:28, Aris Javier wrote:
 I looked at my web.xml, and no sessionTimeout found there...
 can you give me an example on how to write it down in web.xml?
 
 thanks!
 aris
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Wendy Smoak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:25 PM
 To: Tomcat Users List
 Subject: Re: Edit session timeout
 
 From: Aris Javier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  How to edit session timeout? Tomcat's default value is 30mins...
 
 Look in web.xml instead of server.xml. You can change it for the 
 entire container, or on a per-webapp basis, depending on which web.xml

 you edit.
 (Works for Tomcat 4.1, I haven't moved to 5 yet...)
 
 --
 Wendy Smoak
 
 
 
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Apache-Coyote/1.1 application configuration

2005-01-30 Thread Paul Denham
We are having some problems with the configuration of an
Apache-Coyote/1.1 server 

and the installaition of a Broadband Speed test from Visualware 
http://myspeed.visualware.com/faq.html
http://myspeed.visualware.com/faq.html

Over 50% of users are experiencing an error when the 'Upload' test tries
to work.

After a long dialogue between the hosting company 

( http://www.easyspeedy.com/products/os.html
http://www.easyspeedy.com/products/os.html) and Visualware

( outbind://8/www.visualware.com www.visualware.com) the following
conclusion was drawn (by

Easyspeedy..)

After reading all the mails and looked at VisualWare's website/Faq my 

conclusion is that your problem is NOT a application problem (speedtest 

application) NOR a EasySpeedy operating system fault. 

Just to be clear - we have used the words error/fault. There is no
errors or 

faults as such. It is all a matter of application configuration. The 

application there need to be configured is the Apache Webserver

 

We are looking for someone who can help solve this problem and other
maintenance 

issues. If you can help, please let us know.

Thanks,

Paul Denham

Tel +44 (0)870 382 5008

Fax +44 (0)870 382 5009

26-28 Hammersmith Grove

London W6 7BA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Paul Denham
onestopclick 
Technology Brokers
 
Tel   0870 382 5008
Fax  0870 382 5009
 
www.onestopclick.com http://www.onestopclick.com/ 
 
26-28 Hammersmith Grove
London W6 7BA
 
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