RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Would you guys take this conversation off the list please? | Its heavy enough without your personal comments. Aren't there room for any fun?! This is the most rewarding and interesting thread in a while, in my opinion..! :) ;) Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Would you guys take this conversation off the list please? Its heavy enough without your personal comments. regards DaveP ** snip here ** -- DISCLAIMER: NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from your system. RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) Assembly is impure and bloated by the macro-Assembly to machine code translation. If you are worth your weight, you can just write it all in hex, and with dipswitches. DEATH TO ALL KEYBOARD USERS!!! Daniel -Original Message- From: SH Solutions [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 4:36 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind Hi After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things: .. Having read points 1-6, I thought, there must be a truth in your remarks. (I did'nt use JSTL or EL yet, but I am about to try.) But then I got to: Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) No more trusting any of your remarks... Regards, Steffen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
i program in ones and zeroes only!! :D 01101101011101110111010101101111011011110110111100110010001001101001001001100100011000100111011011000110111001101101000100100111011100100110011001110111001001110110110101101101011010010110111001100111001001101001011011100010011000100110100101101110011101110010000100110011 --- SANTOS, DANIEL (SBCSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assembly is impure and bloated by the macro-Assembly to machine code translation. If you are worth your weight, you can just write it all in hex, and with dipswitches. DEATH TO ALL KEYBOARD USERS!!! Daniel __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
You know you could just not write any jsps or servlets and do everything in filters. That's my personal preference. :) --mikej -=- mike jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Woodchuck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:52 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind i program in ones and zeroes only!! :D 0110110101110111011101010110111101101111011011110010 0001001000100110100100100110010001100010011101101100 0110111001101101000100100111011100100110011001110111 00100111011011010110110101101001011011100110011100100110100101101110 0010011000100110100101101110011101110010000100110011 --- SANTOS, DANIEL (SBCSI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Assembly is impure and bloated by the macro-Assembly to machine code translation. If you are worth your weight, you can just write it all in hex, and with dipswitches. DEATH TO ALL KEYBOARD USERS!!! Daniel __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Real programmers only need 2 buttons: 0 and 1 -Original Message- From: SANTOS, DANIEL (SBCSI) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:14 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) Assembly is impure and bloated by the macro-Assembly to machine code translation. If you are worth your weight, you can just write it all in hex, and with dipswitches. DEATH TO ALL KEYBOARD USERS!!! Daniel -Original Message- From: SH Solutions [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 4:36 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind Hi After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things: .. Having read points 1-6, I thought, there must be a truth in your remarks. (I did'nt use JSTL or EL yet, but I am about to try.) But then I got to: Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) No more trusting any of your remarks... Regards, Steffen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05.07.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05.07.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Ivan Jouikov wrote, On 7/4/2004 1:04 PM:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly showed
that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1 times,
you-?ll see the difference)
Sure it will be slower, it is really java classes under the hood trying to
hide complexity of scriptlet code. Is that a bad thing? Not really, helper
classes a great, we create them to handle business logic, why not more for
view components. The latest hardware is getting less expensive so I do not
feel this argument holds (especially with the new 64 bit processers and
DDR memory).
You don't feel this argument holds? When you have a poor little
tomcat running 100 different web applications with 10,000 clicks/day
on each, it DOES become an issue. Your choice: get a new server, OR
replace all the ${} with %=%. I've been faced with similar
situation many times, and trust me, it drives you nuts.
Heh, I was recently faced with a similar decision. One page coded with
scriptlets and a few nested for loops was replaced with JSTL and
c:forEach/, unfortunately CPU utilization and page response times went
up about 10x, from .5 seconds to 5+ seconds which is unacceptable.
Took me a while to figure out why the page had started responding
slowly. Then I replaced JSTL tags with scriptlets with timers around
the loops and watched page load times go down significantly.
I would like to use JSTL as I do find it a lot easier to read than
scriptlets, but in this case the performance hit was unbearable. Maybe
when I can get the go-ahead for some faster hardware the performance hit
will be negligible.
-Dave
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RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
1) Yes %=% was 10 times as fast. But Anything of simple complexity like
using a model object request %=% to get ugly real fast with many getters
and explict casts. There is a massive tradeoff in simplicity when you have
the following:
${myObect.myGetter.aValue}
Ahh must I repeat this again? First of all, it's not all that easy. You're
gonna have to do
c:set var=myObject value=%=myObjectFromCode%/ prior to using that.
Now, what if myObject.myGetter returns null? You're in for some fun hour-long
debugging session. I'd rather stick with
%
Set set = my.set();
Object value = set.get(weee);
If ( value == null || !(object instanceof MySuperClass) )
Return;
MySuperClass msc = (MySuperClass)object;
String myString = msc.aValue();
%
%=myString%
I'd trade these 10 lines of code for that 1 line of code IN A FLASH, because I
know, in the future, when there's a bug that's crashing my server, and my manager is
yelling at me cuz the clients r calling bank and telling them to refund their
accounts, because some variable was null and it says Thank you for your purchase.
Null has been shipped. I KNOW I will spend at most an hour locating the bug in my
Java code, whereas I'd spend days, if not weeks, if not re-write the entire
application, just to fix bug dug inside the EL code.
2) I get massive headaches reading all the extra %% in code. Add any
type
of loops of block and it gets even worse. JSTL is simpler to read if you
have good people writing consitent styles.
Yes I agree, JSTL is simpler to read. How about this, your write a calendar
using JSTL, considering all the loops and triggers you'd have to use. And then you
tell me how much easier JSTL is to read, ok?
3) XML is for what you want it to be. But as for using xml as the syntax
for
JSTL, it does make things simpler for other tool sets to integrate. It
also
is an easier trasitition from things like cold fusion and such.
True that XML is what you want it to be. Why don't we start programming in
Microsoft word? I mean, it is a text editor isn't it?
4) This arguement is the blanket arguement against any loose typed
languages.
I shall ignore it.
5) This sounds like people having configuration and training issue.
6) All my developers have switched to JSTL. They love it and the code is
much
easier to write and *more important* review.
Good luck with your developers. Can I have the name of your company plz?
I'll make sure never to buy anything from it.
7) This is just plain old trolling.
-Tim
Ivan Jouikov wrote:
After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly showed
that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1 times,
youll see the difference)
2. JSTL is cumbersome someone told me once that the reason they use
JSTL is because their designers are scared of %=% code, but they have no
problem throwing around XML statements. Well, whats my advice to him:
hire new designers, and fire your high school students. On one hand, yeah
${parameter.name} is very nice relatively to
%=request.getParameter(name)%. But after playing around with JSTLs
ull see what I mean. Also, when your designers screwes up with the
logical structure of your web-site cuz he thought he could just throw
around tags, youll think twice. Which brings me to the next point
3. XML is for data flow, not for logic. Whoever the hell thought of
tags like c:if and c:choose should be murdered in the worst way
possible. With JSTLs exporting and importing variables, and all the
logical statements and loops, the whole idea of XML gets destroyed.
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnt even have data types (well
it has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember JavaScript?
Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be server-side scripting
language? You know the reason it didnt make it (one of the major ones)?
Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why
bring it back?
5. Server-side content and client-side content should be separated.
When everything looks like HTML (in some way), its hard to tell what
actually gets processed, and what gets sent to the client as static (if
you have all-nighters, youll understand).
6. JSTL is time-consuming. The whole idea of JSTL was to speed up the
process. Not only is it less efficient than embedding code the normal
way, but it also takes you forever to make something new with it. Dont
believe me? Just try it.
7. The only reason JSTL was made is so that guys at Apache could write
some stupid book explaining its hella complicated syntax, and charge
people $50 for it. See, its just like the C++ story. Why was C++
invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
My replies below -Original Message- From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:19 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:03:45 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. Youl regret it. I did. If a tool doesn't work for you, don't use it. There are plenty of tools. We all make mistakes. No reason to hate a tool just because it let you down. If there are serious faults in a certain tool in the context of your use, set it aside, regroup, learn from the experience, re-negotiate with your boss, coworkers, and/or your customers, move on. (Any boss or any customer who isn't willing to put up with the overhead of getting the right tool for the job just isn't worth the trouble.) Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the reason why you're using Japanese mail server? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Hello, it seems I have missed a good conversation! Now for my two pence/cents: 4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnt even have data types (well it has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember JavaScript? Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be server-side scripting language? You know the reason it didnt make it (one of the major ones)? Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why bring it back? I agree that % code % is clearer, especially for debugging but I think that using % % excessively leads to poor page design. Embedding Java code directly into a presentation page leans towards placing business logic in the presentation tier, which is BAD design. If you have to process your data objects on the presentation page you have a problem. It is better to construct a bean that contains all the information required for the page, embed it in the session when you serve the JSP and just pull data out of the bean. Need to loop? Use iterators in the bean. Need to construct a new object in the page? Why? This is presentation! Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the reason why you're using Japanese mail server? Good luck with your developers. Can I have the name of your company plz? I'll make sure never to buy anything from it No need to get personal, this is a debate not a slagging match. -Mike Fowler I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it, and I, I could do anything, if only I could get 'round to it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:55:17 -0700 (B"Ivan Jouikov" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (B (B My replies below (B (B -Original Message- (B From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (B Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:19 PM (B To: Tomcat Users List (B Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things (B to ever happen to mankind (B (B On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:03:45 -0700 (B "Ivan Jouikov" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (B (B ... (B Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. You$Bn,%+if!"(Bl regret it. I (B did. (B (B If a tool doesn't work for you, don't use it. (B (B There are plenty of tools. We all make mistakes. No reason to hate a (B tool just because it let you down. (B (B If there are serious faults in a certain tool in the context of your use, (B set it aside, regroup, learn from the experience, re-negotiate with your (B boss, coworkers, and/or your customers, move on. (B (B (Any boss or any customer who isn't willing to put up with the overhead (B of getting the right tool for the job just isn't worth the trouble.) (B (B Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the reason (B why you're using Japanese mail server? (B (BI live and work in Japan. :-o (B (BBut if a customer is going to ask you to use a tool proficiently before (Byou've had time to even learn whether it's appropriate for the job, and (Bis not willing to negotiate, you should definitely think hard about (Bwhether they're paying you enough to cover rent. (B (BA tool is a tool. Rather than declare that a tool is worse than useless, (Bit probably would be more effective to explain why you couldn't use it (Bthis time. It's a little easier that way to talk about what can be done, (Bwhat tools could be used instead, where you might still profitably use (Bthe recalcitrant tool. (B (BIf the customer or boss is willing to negotiate, positive information (Bwill be more useful. (B (BAnd that is enough platitudes for a day or so. I'll shut up. (B (B-- (BJoel [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (B (B- (BTo unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BFor additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
-Original Message-
From: Mike Fowler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:49 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things
to ever happen to mankind
Hello, it seems I have missed a good conversation! Now for my two
pence/cents:
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnt even have data types
(well it has on the bottom level, but not on the surface).
Remember JavaScript? Did you know that at first, it was
supposed
to be server-side scripting language? You know the reason it
didnt make it (one of the major ones)? Because of its sloppy
syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why bring it back?
I agree that % code % is clearer, especially for debugging but I think
that using % % excessively leads to poor page design.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I think HAVING poor
designs leads to poor design. Using % % might make it look ugly, but it won't
affect the design itself (I am not speaking of graphical design here, I am speaking of
program design)
Embedding Java
code directly into a presentation page leans towards placing business
logic in the presentation tier, which is BAD design.
Isn't that EXACTLY what c:foreach and c:if tags encourage? Having logic
inside presentation? Embedding java code doesn't necessarily mean logic. % for (
Iterator I = collection.iterator(); i.hasNext(); ) { %
Do stuff
% } %
Seems much better than:
c:set var=myCollection value=%=collectionFromCode%/
c:for item=${myCollection} test=%=somecmplicated test here%
Do stuff
c:for
Again, it's not what u use (JSTL or java) that makes a bad design, its a bad
designer that makes a bad design.
If you have to
process your data objects on the presentation page you have a problem.
It is better to construct a bean that contains all the information
required for the page, embed it in the session when you serve the JSP
and just pull data out of the bean. Need to loop? Use iterators in the
bean. Need to construct a new object in the page? Why? This is
presentation!
Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the
reason why you're using Japanese mail server?
Good luck with your developers. Can I have the name of your
company
plz? I'll make sure never to buy anything from it
No need to get personal, this is a debate not a slagging match.
-Mike Fowler
I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it, and I,
I could do anything, if only I could get 'round to it
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Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Hello - I think I was unclear in what I meant. I am not talking about presentation of code, (hell assembler can be presented well!) what I mean is that using JSTL and EL forces you to abstract yourself from the business tier as you have restricted ability to handle the data. By using embedded Java you do not have this restriction (which may be a good thing for performance or clarity) which can lead you to perform operations you shouldn't in a presentation processing. I agree that having a bad designer leads to bad design, but a good design can be poorly implemented. I propose that the use of embedded java can be poor implementation as it is all to easy to perform operations that you shouldn't in a presentation tier. -Mike Fowler I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it, and I, I could do anything, if only I could get 'round to it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
My replies below -Original Message- From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:24 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:55:17 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My replies below -Original Message- From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:19 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:03:45 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. Youl regret it. I did. If a tool doesn't work for you, don't use it. There are plenty of tools. We all make mistakes. No reason to hate a tool just because it let you down. If there are serious faults in a certain tool in the context of your use, set it aside, regroup, learn from the experience, re-negotiate with your boss, coworkers, and/or your customers, move on. (Any boss or any customer who isn't willing to put up with the overhead of getting the right tool for the job just isn't worth the trouble.) Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the reason why you're using Japanese mail server? I live and work in Japan. :-o But if a customer is going to ask you to use a tool proficiently before you've had time to even learn whether it's appropriate for the job, and is not willing to negotiate, you should definitely think hard about whether they're paying you enough to cover rent. A tool is a tool. Rather than declare that a tool is worse than useless, it probably would be more effective to explain why you couldn't use it this time. It's a little easier that way to talk about what can be done, what tools could be used instead, where you might still profitably use the recalcitrant tool. Ok, so you're saying that if my task is to dig a hole, and there's a tool whose documentation says used for digging holes efficiently and easy, it automatically means that it's good for that task? You ever thought that good ideas don't necessarily mean good results? What if that tool is a vacuum cleaner? How would you dig a hole with a vacuum cleaner? I mean that's what its documentation says... The point is, some tools are just no good. If the customer or boss is willing to negotiate, positive information will be more useful. And that is enough platitudes for a day or so. I'll shut up. -- Joel [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
My replies below -Original Message- From: Mike Fowler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:40 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind Hello - I think I was unclear in what I meant. I am not talking about presentation of code, (hell assembler can be presented well!) what I mean is that using JSTL and EL forces you to abstract yourself from the business tier as you have restricted ability to handle the data. WRONG. It forces you to do the OPPOSITE. Logical flow statements like c:if and c:for FORCE you to have business logic embedded in the pages. You ever read JSTL manual? I recal it says something about no need for java at all... By using embedded Java you do not have this restriction (which may be a good thing for performance or clarity) which can lead you to perform operations you shouldn't in a presentation processing. I agree that having a bad designer leads to bad design, but a good design can be poorly implemented. I propose that the use of embedded java can be poor implementation as it is all to easy to perform operations that you shouldn't in a presentation tier. Hmm. Such simple thing like a guest book wouldn't need separate tires. I'd rather have it embedded in JSP -Mike Fowler I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it, and I, I could do anything, if only I could get 'round to it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Hi Ivan I heard same story for assemblor supporters about C 30 years ago : Slower and not better. Fact is that today's software are larger than 30 years ago. Tools just cannot be the same as complexity is exponential to the size. It is not one good tool, you have tools adapted for each job. Assemblor is ideal for very small code, some parts of drivers, of image processing etc. C is ideal for medium size code requiring speed : drivers, document processing etc. Java is ideal for large size project : ERP, manufacturing etc. Tcl is ideal as script language at script level etc. Awk is ideal for small text manipulation, Yacc, lex, sh, HTML, Xml, javascript and so many others give pleasure and save time to many peoples. For my side I use all of them. It is said that you can reconize a good worker at the quality of it's tools. If you want to limit yourself to just one tool, OK. But whatever you do, yo will have bad result. So, please, let us choose our tools freely and enjoywith them. Best regards Andre Ivan Jouikov wrote: My replies below -Original Message- From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:24 AM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:55:17 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote My replies below -Original Message- From: Joel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:19 PM To: Tomcat Users List Subject: Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:03:45 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. Youl regret it. I did. If a tool doesn't work for you, don't use it. There are plenty of tools. We all make mistakes. No reason to hate a tool just because it let you down. If there are serious faults in a certain tool in the context of your use, set it aside, regroup, learn from the experience, re-negotiate with your boss, coworkers, and/or your customers, move on. (Any boss or any customer who isn't willing to put up with the overhead of getting the right tool for the job just isn't worth the trouble.) Customer isn't worth the trouble? Maybe that theory of thought is the reason why you're using Japanese mail server? I live and work in Japan. :-o But if a customer is going to ask you to use a tool proficiently before you've had time to even learn whether it's appropriate for the job, and is not willing to negotiate, you should definitely think hard about whether they're paying you enough to cover rent. A tool is a tool. Rather than declare that a tool is worse than useless, it probably would be more effective to explain why you couldn't use it this time. It's a little easier that way to talk about what can be done, what tools could be used instead, where you might still profitably use the recalcitrant tool. Ok, so you're saying that if my task is to dig a hole, and there's a tool whose documentation says used for digging holes efficiently and easy, it automatically means that it's good for that task? You ever thought that good ideas don't necessarily mean good results? What if that tool is a vacuum cleaner? How would you dig a hole with a vacuum cleaner? I mean that's what its documentation says... The point is, some tools are just no good. If the customer or boss is willing to negotiate, positive information will be more useful. And that is enough platitudes for a day or so. I'll shut up. -- Joel [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:40:54 -0700 Ivan Jouikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote ... A tool is a tool. Rather than declare that a tool is worse than useless, it probably would be more effective to explain why you couldn't use it this time. It's a little easier that way to talk about what can be done, what tools could be used instead, where you might still profitably use the recalcitrant tool. Ok, so you're saying that if my task is to dig a hole, Is your task to dig a hole? There are many kinds of holes -- wide holes, narrow holes, holes that go sidewise, holes that go straight down, holes that you fill with cement and build houses on, holes that you run subway trains through, ... and there's a tool whose documentation says used for digging holes efficiently and easy, it automatically means that it's good for that task? When I was a kid, I liked to dig holes with a hammer, just because I had my Dad's hammer but no wood and no nails. I dug some pretty good holes, but my Dad made me clean the hammer up and oil it so it wouldn't rust. I'd hate to dig a foundation with a post-hole shovel. I'd hate to dig a foundation in caliche with anything. But if I had to dig a foundation in caliche, I'd want either a pick or a jackhammer. (Dynamite's too hard to control.) I would not want to dig in the flower bed with a jackhammer. You ever thought that good ideas don't necessarily mean good results? Naw, you're putting me on! Good ideas ALWAYS get good results. At least, if you shovel enough manure into the fields. What if that tool is a vacuum cleaner? How would you dig a hole with a vacuum cleaner? I think I may have started out the door to do just that one day when I was a kid. I think my mother was glad she stopped me. You ever dig a hole with a water hose? Now, professional hole-diggers actually do use (very large) water hoses and vacuum cleaners. That is, some sludge belts use a wet vacuum system to keep the sludge belts clear. (Maybe I should've been a civil engineer.) I mean that's what its documentation says... Then, if the documentation is not lying, it must not be the same kind of vacuum cleaner you'd use in the house. The point is, some tools are just no good. Don't you just hate tools like that? ... -- Joel [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Hi After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things: .. Having read points 1-6, I thought, there must be a truth in your remarks. (I did'nt use JSTL or EL yet, but I am about to try.) But then I got to: Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) No more trusting any of your remarks... Regards, Steffen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Ivan, tell us how you really feel :-)
Not to be a smart As_ but Ive felt the same way about changes, for the
better? not always, but it progresses to the next point where there is
an improvement. For example, remember the old client/server
technology? It sounded good at first until everyone discovered that
maintaining Fat clients was a total nightmare. Now we use java and the
client is a browser, is it better? Yea, probably, but it could be
simpler if all browsers worked the same. Use the technology that fits
your needs.
Tom K.
-Original Message-
From: Ivan Jouikov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 1:04 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to
ever happen to mankind
After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly
showed that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1
times, youll see the difference)
2. JSTL is cumbersome someone told me once that the reason they
use JSTL is because their designers are scared of %=% code, but they
have no problem throwing around XML statements. Well, whats my advice
to him: hire new designers, and fire your high school students. On one
hand, yeah ${parameter.name} is very nice relatively to
%=request.getParameter(name)%. But after playing around with JSTLs
ull see what I mean. Also, when your designers screwes up with the
logical structure of your web-site cuz he thought he could just throw
around tags, youll think twice. Which brings me to the next point
3. XML is for data flow, not for logic. Whoever the hell thought
of tags like c:if and c:choose should be murdered in the worst way
possible. With JSTLs exporting and importing variables, and all the
logical statements and loops, the whole idea of XML gets destroyed.
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnt even have data types
(well it has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember
JavaScript? Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be
server-side scripting language? You know the reason it didnt make it
(one of the major ones)? Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of
errors it caused. Why bring it back?
5. Server-side content and client-side content should be
separated. When everything looks like HTML (in some way), its hard to
tell what actually gets processed, and what gets sent to the client as
static (if you have all-nighters, youll understand).
6. JSTL is time-consuming. The whole idea of JSTL was to speed up
the process. Not only is it less efficient than embedding code the
normal way, but it also takes you forever to make something new with it.
Dont believe me? Just try it.
7. The only reason JSTL was made is so that guys at Apache could
write some stupid book explaining its hella complicated syntax, and
charge people $50 for it. See, its just like the C++ story. Why was
C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C
does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. So I am not sure if
JSTL is a step to having advanced developers who get paid more because
they took time to learn retarded JSTL syntax and EL, or is it just
Apaches developers way of making money (and I am surre Oreilly and
the bros are thankful too).
Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. Youll regret it. I
did.
_
Best Regards,
Ivan V. Jouikov
(206) 228-6670
HYPERLINK http://www.ablogic.net/;
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RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
I am new to this mailing list but I figured I would throw in my two cents:
(Please excuse my e-mail provider it interpreted the characters from Ivan's
original message in some strange way)
Needless to say I was a bit concerned about a few comments...
After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly showed
that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1 times,
youâll see the difference)
Sure it will be slower, it is really java classes under the hood trying to
hide complexity of scriptlet code. Is that a bad thing? Not really, helper
classes a great, we create them to handle business logic, why not more for
view components. The latest hardware is getting less expensive so I do not
feel this argument holds (especially with the new 64 bit processers and DDR
memory).
2. JSTL is cumbersome â someone told me once that the reason they use
JSTL is because their designers are scared of %=% code, but they have no
problem throwing around XML statements. Well, whatâs my advice to him:
hire new designers, and fire your high school students.
That is not nice to say about your fellow UI developers. Their specialty is
usability and content development and if you ask my opinion most server side
developers do not dedicate time to this discipliine. It is too much to ask a
designer to learn a server side language when they are busy trying to keep
up with their specialty. The job positing to replace the high schoolers will
be like all of those other rediculous ones you see on Dice these days where
companies are looking for a laundry list instead of a solid developer.
3. XML is for data flow, not for logic. Whoever the hell thought of tags
like c:if and c:choose should be murdered in the worst way possible.
With JSTLâs exporting and importing variables, and all the logical
statements and loops, the whole idea of XML gets destroyed.
What should we use then for content development? HTML is done... no more
updates... It's replacement is an XML application known as XHTML. Looks like
XML has more uses that just data... Oh did someone mention XSL? XSLT?
XSLT syntax xsl:If ... xsl:choose I wonder where Jakarta developers
got the idea
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Activity
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnât even have data types (well it
has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember JavaScript?
Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be server-side scripting
language? You know the reason it didnât make it (one of the major ones)?
Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why
bring it back?
Apples and oranges... Javascript indeed has it's problems, (heck I am forced
to work with VBScript so I empathize here), but someone was smart enough to
recognize Javascript's limitation and that is why it is a client side
technology. I believe JSTL uses reflection and if you don't like that you
sure as heck will never like EJB Container managed persistence...
5. Server-side content and client-side content should be separated. When
everything looks like HTML (in some way), itâs hard to tell what actually
gets processed, and what gets sent to the client as static (if you have
all-nighters, youâll understand).
The point about SS and CS separation is an arguement for EL. It should be
used to make it easier to display values from Business logic components
hiding the complexity from the View Tier, no work should be done other
than rendering information to an understandable layout. If one is
processing JSTL is not the way to go, move that logic into a helper class,
that is what they are for.
6. JSTL is time-consuming. The whole idea of JSTL was to speed up the
process. Not only is it less efficient than embedding code the normal way,
but it also takes you forever to make something new with it. Donât
believe me? Just try it.
Yes I have tried it, with a third party UDDI API that did not use JAX-R
specification and found it easier to just write:
c:out value=${sessionScope.business.TModel.overview.overviewURL}
than writing:
Business business = ( Business ) session.getParameter(Business);
TModel tModel = (TModel) business.getTModel();
Overview overview = (Overview) tModel.getOverview();
String overviewURL = overview.getOverviewURL();
out.print(overviewURL);
7. The only reason JSTL was made is so that guys at Apache could write some
stupid book explaining its hella complicated syntax, and charge people $50
for it. See, itâs just like the C++ story. Why was C++ invented? To
give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++
does just as good, and better. So I am not sure if JSTL is a step to
having âadvancedâ developers who get paid more because they took time
to learn retarded JSTL syntax and EL, or is it just Apacheâs
developersâ way of making money (and I am surre Oâreilly and the
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
I am not closed minded. You got to give me some credit for opening myself up to JSTL and EL in the first place. And about C++ - I like it, but I use it only because I have to use it. What I DON'T like about it is: Huge file sizes 100% guaranteed memory leaks Classes = complicated structs I'd switch from C++ to C in a flash. -Original Message- From: SH Solutions [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 2:36 AM To: 'Tomcat Users List' Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind Hi After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things: .. Having read points 1-6, I thought, there must be a truth in your remarks. (I did'nt use JSTL or EL yet, but I am about to try.) But then I got to: Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. At that point, you just showed to be very closed-minded. (C++ does have an accurate object model, which improves a lot. Yes, you can do similar things with macros, but cumbersomely. From your point of view, go ahead and programm assembly code. Believe me, it dies whatever C does just as good, and better.) No more trusting any of your remarks... Regards, Steffen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07.06.2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Read my comments below:
-Original Message-
From: Ariel Valentin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things
to ever happen to mankind
I am new to this mailing list but I figured I would throw in my two cents:
(Please excuse my e-mail provider it interpreted the characters from
Ivan's
original message in some strange way
Needless to say I was a bit concerned about a few comments...
After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly showed
that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1 times,
you-?ll see the difference)
Sure it will be slower, it is really java classes under the hood trying to
hide complexity of scriptlet code. Is that a bad thing? Not really, helper
classes a great, we create them to handle business logic, why not more for
view components. The latest hardware is getting less expensive so I do not
feel this argument holds (especially with the new 64 bit processers and
DDR
memory).
You don't feel this argument holds? When you have a poor little tomcat
running 100 different web applications with 10,000 clicks/day on each, it DOES become
an issue. Your choice: get a new server, OR replace all the ${} with %=%. I've
been faced with similar situation many times, and trust me, it drives you nuts.
2. JSTL is cumbersome -? someone told me once that the reason they use
JSTL is because their designers are scared of %=% code, but they have
no
problem throwing around XML statements. Well, what-?s my advice to him:
hire new designers, and fire your high school students.
That is not nice to say about your fellow UI developers. Their specialty
is
usability and content development and if you ask my opinion most server
side
developers do not dedicate time to this discipliine. It is too much to ask
a
designer to learn a server side language when they are busy trying to keep
up with their specialty. The job positing to replace the high schoolers
will
be like all of those other rediculous ones you see on Dice these days
where
companies are looking for a laundry list instead of a solid developer.
I see your point, but you got me wrong. I am not suggesting that designers
should have to learn a whole new language, but I am saying that if a designer is OK
with this: ${name}, but NOT ok with this: %=name%, then it's a retarded designer.
EL syntax sort of encourages designers to be free to throw expressions and tags
around, which could result in SERIOUS logical errors when you pull some important ${}
out of the loop, and as a result, the dev will have to spend two day figuring out why
his code isnt working (this is where CVS is a charm). Bottom line is: designers
are for designing, not for throwing important stuff around.
3. XML is for data flow, not for logic. Whoever the hell thought of
tags
like c:if and c:choose should be murdered in the worst way possible.
With JSTL-?s exporting and importing variables, and all the logical
statements and loops, the whole idea of XML gets destroyed.
What should we use then for content development? HTML is done... no more
updates... It's replacement is an XML application known as XHTML. Looks
like
XML has more uses that just data... Oh did someone mention XSL? XSLT?
XSLT syntax xsl:If ... xsl:choose I wonder where Jakarta developers
got the idea
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Activity
What should we use instead? Welcome to the front page of JSP manual:
% if( yourmoma ) { %
Do some things
% } %
To me, it seems EASIER than this:
c:set var=yourmoma value=%=yourMomaFromCode%/
c:if test=${yourmoma}
Do some things
/c:if
What happened to the good old idea of using JAVA, with all its beautiful
features, in the JSPs themselves? IMHO, Java beats tag syntax in all aspects - easier
to write and understand, strict syntax, and more efficient. I don't know WHY would
you want to use XML for logic flow in the first place.
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesn-?t even have data types
(well it
has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember JavaScript?
Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be server-side scripting
language? You know the reason it didn-?t make it (one of the major
ones)?
Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why
bring it back?
Apples and oranges... Javascript indeed has it's problems, (heck I am
forced
to work with VBScript so I empathize here), but someone was smart enough
to
recognize Javascript's limitation and that is why it is a client side
technology. I believe JSTL uses reflection and if you don't like that you
sure as heck will never like EJB Container
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
Nice troll.
1) Yes %=% was 10 times as fast. But Anything of simple complexity like
using a model object request %=% to get ugly real fast with many getters
and explict casts. There is a massive tradeoff in simplicity when you have
the following:
${myObect.myGetter.aValue}
2) I get massive headaches reading all the extra %% in code. Add any type
of loops of block and it gets even worse. JSTL is simpler to read if you
have good people writing consitent styles.
3) XML is for what you want it to be. But as for using xml as the syntax for
JSTL, it does make things simpler for other tool sets to integrate. It also
is an easier trasitition from things like cold fusion and such.
4) This arguement is the blanket arguement against any loose typed languages.
I shall ignore it.
5) This sounds like people having configuration and training issue.
6) All my developers have switched to JSTL. They love it and the code is much
easier to write and *more important* review.
7) This is just plain old trolling.
-Tim
Ivan Jouikov wrote:
After getting convinced to try JSTL, I learned the following things:
1. JSTL and EL are inefficient. Tests on similar pages clearly showed that. (compare - ${name} with %=name%, run in a loop 1 times, youll see the difference)
2. JSTL is cumbersome someone told me once that the reason they use JSTL is because their designers are scared of %=% code, but they have no problem throwing around XML statements. Well, whats my advice to him: hire new designers, and fire your high school students. On one hand, yeah ${parameter.name} is very nice relatively to %=request.getParameter(name)%. But after playing around with JSTLs ull see what I mean. Also, when your designers screwes up with the logical structure of your web-site cuz he thought he could just throw around tags, youll think twice. Which brings me to the next point
3. XML is for data flow, not for logic. Whoever the hell thought of tags like c:if and c:choose should be murdered in the worst way possible. With JSTLs exporting and importing variables, and all the logical statements and loops, the whole idea of XML gets destroyed.
4. EL encourages sloppy syntax. It doesnt even have data types (well it has on the bottom level, but not on the surface). Remember JavaScript? Did you know that at first, it was supposed to be server-side scripting language? You know the reason it didnt make it (one of the major ones)? Because of its sloppy syntax and the amount of errors it caused. Why bring it back?
5. Server-side content and client-side content should be separated. When everything looks like HTML (in some way), its hard to tell what actually gets processed, and what gets sent to the client as static (if you have all-nighters, youll understand).
6. JSTL is time-consuming. The whole idea of JSTL was to speed up the process. Not only is it less efficient than embedding code the normal way, but it also takes you forever to make something new with it. Dont believe me? Just try it.
7. The only reason JSTL was made is so that guys at Apache could write some stupid book explaining its hella complicated syntax, and charge people $50 for it. See, its just like the C++ story. Why was C++ invented? To give programmers jobs. No other reason whatsoever, C does whatever C++ does just as good, and better. So I am not sure if JSTL is a step to having advanced developers who get paid more because they took time to learn retarded JSTL syntax and EL, or is it just Apaches developers way of making money (and I am surre Oreilly and the bros are thankful too).
-
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Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:03:45 -0700 (B"Ivan Jouikov" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote (B (B ... (B Point of this message: DO NOT USE JSTL OR EL. You$Bc`QM(Bl regret it. I did. (B (BIf a tool doesn't work for you, don't use it. (B (BThere are plenty of tools. We all make mistakes. No reason to hate a (Btool just because it let you down. (B (BIf there are serious faults in a certain tool in the context of your use, (Bset it aside, regroup, learn from the experience, re-negotiate with your (Bboss, coworkers, and/or your customers, move on. (B (B(Any boss or any customer who isn't willing to put up with the overhead (Bof getting the right tool for the job just isn't worth the trouble.) (B (B (B (B- (BTo unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BFor additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I've officially decided that JSTL is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind
... Believe me, it dies whatever C does just Heh. as good, and better.) ... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
