Re: Topband: FT8 discussion
Ladies and Gentlemen, Isn't it time to just stop the discussion?? 73, George, K8GG _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 Usage or CW QRM? :^)
>>No one 'owns" a band segment on 160M under what is a VOLUNTARY >>BANDPLAN - and the band segments do "flex" in contests when there is >>so much activity to warrant the overlap that naturally occurs. The concept described above may have worked from time immemorial, up to, and excluding, the creation of FT8/JT65/FT9. FT8, and other yet to be developed modes, require a different approach to band planning. For lack of a better term, FT8 is a contained mode, meaning, the software establishes a 2-2.5 kHz container. All activity occurs within this container. Outside of it there is no activity, no 'D/QRM', to use the malicious lingo adopted so far in this discussion. It's easy for an SSB or CW operator to move a few kHz away, and still make contacts, not so with FT8. If each individual FT8 user was to QSY in the same manner as a CW user, he/she may in reality be moving 2-2.5 kHz at the time. Multiply this by many users, and the CW frequencies that you 'own' will be gone. Gentlemen, are you sure you want this to happen? Instead of a single 2-2.5 kHz FT8 segment, you may end up with multiples segments. The 20M FT8 segment is already over populated. People are already talking about expanding below and above the establised segment. If the popularity of the mode is sustained, or grows further, you may have a much bigger issue in your hands. Better start introducing lots of new CW users to protect 'your' frequencies. 73 de Vince, VA3VF _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m
Thing is, FT8 is by transmitted signal measurement, a narrow band mode just like CW. Even narrower than typical CW. Yet we have CW signals interfering with FT8 users self-perceived window, when they are 2kc away from each other. So a regulation by transmitted signal bandwidth does not seem to be the magic arrow some of us thought a few years ago. I include myself in the “some of us”. Tim N3QE > On Nov 29, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TVwrote: > > >> 1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW sub-band >> on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands >> like 80/40/20/15/10. > W8JI and I (then AD8I) also filed petitions with the FCC to create > a CW (narrow band as on all of the HF bands) sub band between 1800 > and 1850 KHz. ARRL refused to even give tacit support and the FCC > dismissed those petitions in spite of overwhelming comments in favor > of a narrow band only sub-band. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > >> On 11/29/2017 3:38 PM, k1zm--- via Topband wrote: >> Hi All >> This FT8 discussion is fascinating really. It harkens me to remember the >> origins of the current ARRL 160M bandplan that we try to follow today on >> Topband. >> A number of us (myself included) were on the 160M ARRL BANDPLANNING >> COMMITTEE some years ago and there were several schools of thought that took >> place at the time: >> 1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW sub-band >> on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands like >> 80/40/20/15/10. >> 2) However, the CHARTER of the ARRL committee was determined NOT to be >> inclusive of a formal petition to the FCC to establish true, formal >> sub-bands on 160M. >> 3) INSTEAD - the current bandplan was what was adopted which placed digital >> where it presently resides - as I recall it was on 1838 and not on 1840 by >> the way. >> 4) When those of us favoring FCC action on the matter inquired about >> CONTESTS - (especially those on SINGLE SIDEBAND) - we were told that 160M >> spectrum would "FLEX" to accommodate what would be SSB activity down to 1803 >> here in the USA and above 1813 over in EU since the lower band edge is 1810 >> over in Region 1 >> In other words, if this is not cyrstal clear - it was EXPECTED that SSB >> would penetrate below 1842 during an SSB contest - and that CW would "FLEX" >> over the band segments that were usually considered for DIGITAL and SSB >> modes.during a competitive operating event. >> In actual practice this has worked reasonably well - until the rise of the >> interest in FT8 - where some folks seem to think now that 1838-1840 is >> somehow INVIOLATE. This is an INCORRECT assumption in my opinion. >> No one 'owns" a band segment on 160M under what is a VOLUNTARY BANDPLAN - >> and the band segments do "flex" in contests when there is so much activity >> to warrant the overlap that naturally occurs. >> It is also an illusory assumption to believe that since the 160m band goes >> all the way to 2000khz that all space on Topband is of equivalent VALUE >> during a contest event. Europe, for example, cannot operate below 1810 and >> most European countries cannot run FULL POWER above 1850Khz. Also some >> countries in EU today still are limited to narrow band slots from 1810 to >> 1830 or from 1810 to only 1850.. So it is quite LIKELY that during a >> contest event there is going to be a lot of operation around 1838-1842 and >> it is not likely to be FT8 either.if the contest is a CW event or an SSB >> event. >> What needs to happen (and usually does)is that after these contests are >> completed, the band FLEXES again back to our more normal, accepted >> conventions - meaning that CW is usually occurring from 1810 - 1835 or so >> (not by a rule - but just by gentleman's bandplanning convention) and that >> SSB usually occurs above 1843 or so. >> On a final note - W4ZV and I authored a FORMAL FCC petition after our 160M >> Bandplan service was completed and over 1000 amateurs worldwide filed >> supportive comments. What we asked the FCC to do was create a TRUE CW >> sub-band on 160M from 1800 to 1835 or so here in the USA as I recall - but >> in the end Bill Cross at the FCC ridiculed the petition and the FCC denied >> it out of hand - which meant that what we have in place today is the >> VOLUNTARY 160M ARRL BANDPLAN that we now follow - and we all need to >> understand that NO BAND SEGMENT on 160M is reserved for anyone or any mode. >> Here in the US, CW is authorized from 1800-2000 inclusive as is SSB - what >> we all usually do is try to respect what we have as a bandplan MOST OF THE >> TIME and not complain when a contest comes along. >> BY THE WAY - here's one for you. I recently witnessed an HL5IVL digital qso >> where the HL5 was on FT8 around 1820 (because his 160M band was limited to >> 1825 and below) and the counterparty on this same qso was on 1840 or so on >> FT8.I do
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m
1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW sub-band on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands like 80/40/20/15/10. W8JI and I (then AD8I) also filed petitions with the FCC to create a CW (narrow band as on all of the HF bands) sub band between 1800 and 1850 KHz. ARRL refused to even give tacit support and the FCC dismissed those petitions in spite of overwhelming comments in favor of a narrow band only sub-band. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 11/29/2017 3:38 PM, k1zm--- via Topband wrote: Hi All This FT8 discussion is fascinating really. It harkens me to remember the origins of the current ARRL 160M bandplan that we try to follow today on Topband. A number of us (myself included) were on the 160M ARRL BANDPLANNING COMMITTEE some years ago and there were several schools of thought that took place at the time: 1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW sub-band on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands like 80/40/20/15/10. 2) However, the CHARTER of the ARRL committee was determined NOT to be inclusive of a formal petition to the FCC to establish true, formal sub-bands on 160M. 3) INSTEAD - the current bandplan was what was adopted which placed digital where it presently resides - as I recall it was on 1838 and not on 1840 by the way. 4) When those of us favoring FCC action on the matter inquired about CONTESTS - (especially those on SINGLE SIDEBAND) - we were told that 160M spectrum would "FLEX" to accommodate what would be SSB activity down to 1803 here in the USA and above 1813 over in EU since the lower band edge is 1810 over in Region 1 In other words, if this is not cyrstal clear - it was EXPECTED that SSB would penetrate below 1842 during an SSB contest - and that CW would "FLEX" over the band segments that were usually considered for DIGITAL and SSB modes.during a competitive operating event. In actual practice this has worked reasonably well - until the rise of the interest in FT8 - where some folks seem to think now that 1838-1840 is somehow INVIOLATE. This is an INCORRECT assumption in my opinion. No one 'owns" a band segment on 160M under what is a VOLUNTARY BANDPLAN - and the band segments do "flex" in contests when there is so much activity to warrant the overlap that naturally occurs. It is also an illusory assumption to believe that since the 160m band goes all the way to 2000khz that all space on Topband is of equivalent VALUE during a contest event. Europe, for example, cannot operate below 1810 and most European countries cannot run FULL POWER above 1850Khz. Also some countries in EU today still are limited to narrow band slots from 1810 to 1830 or from 1810 to only 1850.. So it is quite LIKELY that during a contest event there is going to be a lot of operation around 1838-1842 and it is not likely to be FT8 either.if the contest is a CW event or an SSB event. What needs to happen (and usually does)is that after these contests are completed, the band FLEXES again back to our more normal, accepted conventions - meaning that CW is usually occurring from 1810 - 1835 or so (not by a rule - but just by gentleman's bandplanning convention) and that SSB usually occurs above 1843 or so. On a final note - W4ZV and I authored a FORMAL FCC petition after our 160M Bandplan service was completed and over 1000 amateurs worldwide filed supportive comments. What we asked the FCC to do was create a TRUE CW sub-band on 160M from 1800 to 1835 or so here in the USA as I recall - but in the end Bill Cross at the FCC ridiculed the petition and the FCC denied it out of hand - which meant that what we have in place today is the VOLUNTARY 160M ARRL BANDPLAN that we now follow - and we all need to understand that NO BAND SEGMENT on 160M is reserved for anyone or any mode. Here in the US, CW is authorized from 1800-2000 inclusive as is SSB - what we all usually do is try to respect what we have as a bandplan MOST OF THE TIME and not complain when a contest comes along. BY THE WAY - here's one for you. I recently witnessed an HL5IVL digital qso where the HL5 was on FT8 around 1820 (because his 160M band was limited to 1825 and below) and the counterparty on this same qso was on 1840 or so on FT8.I do nope we do not see too much of this kind of event - this one was understandable given the band restrictions in Korea.- but it would concern me to find FT8 all over the band all the time - because that would (most likely) create a lot of food fights going forward. At the end of the day - we must respect that 160M is a most UNUSUAL band and there are no really HARD ans FAST inviolate sub-bands in the traditional sense that we find on the higher bands. Personally - I am not an FT8 user - but I respect the rights of others to use this new mode. We cannot hold back technology here - that never works very well - but we do need to understand the need to be
Re: Topband: FT8 discussion
I know this has been “Discussed Out,” but I just want to ask why the window is in the 1840 area instead of the 1990 area? They are asking for QRM at 1840. It will be a losing battle during contests. Just sayin’ Chuck W5PR Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: use the wasteland
Why? Move SSB up there where it belongs. The FT8 operators have every bot as much right to operate where they can make DX contacts (common frequency window with most of the rest of the world) as those who use any other mode. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 11/29/2017 5:46 PM, N7DF via Topband wrote: since most of the band between 1900 and 2000 KHz is seldom used it seems that the best solution to the FT8 isue is to move contacts using this mode up to a frequency in this segment like 1980 or so. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m
Hi Jeff Agree with most of your comments . . . However - if there was a 160m CW sub-band, it might be a RULE in the USA . . . but it wouldn't apply elsewhere . . . So what would be the point?! I think 160m works pretty well as it is. (and compared to all the other bands, it's still the most gentleman-ly in my opinion!) However - I wish more NA stations would actually transmit between 1800 and 1810 kHz (and listen for EU above 1810, like the old days), as this is lovely clear chunk of the band. And please note that between about 1811 and 1815 are some horrible wide beacons over here, so not a good place to hear DX. 73 Roger G3YRO _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: use the wasteland
since most of the band between 1900 and 2000 KHz is seldom used it seems that the best solution to the FT8 isue is to move contacts using this mode up to a frequency in this segment like 1980 or so. _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: CQWW 160m observations
As I mentioned before, the problem that I found was that there weren't many NA stations calling CQ. I heard quite a few calling EU stations, but that was on THEIR frequency. I didn't want to put out a CQ Call during the contest, as I would have had hundreds of EU stations calling me ! (I only came on at odd times, looking for DX) By the way . . . conditions seemed much better last night . . . and l kept calling CQ DX from about 23.30 to 00.30Z . . . but despite being spotted on the cluster and seeing good signal reports on NA RBN stations, only ONE station actually called me ! Roger G3YRO _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 and digital QRM
160 is the only HF band where all HF modes (except CW) have no restrictions. The FT8 guys will really enjoy the CQ WW 160 SSB contest! At least 160 isn't all that useful to the 2.8 kHz wide Sailmail guys -- they really use the full 2.8 kHz. The band segmants are pretty consistent on all the bands. The JT modes (including FT8) start around .040, and RTTY above until one hits the phone band, where "data" is not allowed, except on 160. When there is no contest, there seems to be room for everyone.--Mike, WV2ZOW On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Ralph Parkerwrote: >>I noticed a few freq cops on the cluster announcements where some FT8 users >> think they deserve clear >>space which we know does not exist is a shared band that we have. > > What I have failed to understand over the years is why the digital stations > were 'assigned' a spot in the middle of the 'CW bands'. How much less > opportunity there would be for QRM between modes if the digital folks were > up at the top of the CW area. This pretty much applies to all the HF bands. > A real head-scratcher, IMHO. > > Disclaimer: I am mostly a CW op. > > VE7XF > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m
Jeff, Many thanks or the well explained history of the 160M band plan. This is good info for relatively newcomers to the band like me. Rich K7ZV On Wed, November 29, 2017 12:38 pm, k1zm--- via Topband wrote: > Hi All > > > > This FT8 discussion is fascinating really. It harkens me to remember the > origins of the current ARRL 160M bandplan that we try to follow today on > Topband. > > > > A number of us (myself included) were on the 160M ARRL BANDPLANNING > COMMITTEE some years ago and there were several schools of thought that > took place at the time: > > > 1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW > sub-band on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands like > 80/40/20/15/10. > > > > 2) However, the CHARTER of the ARRL committee was determined NOT to be > inclusive of a formal petition to the FCC to establish true, formal > sub-bands on 160M. > > > 3) INSTEAD - the current bandplan was what was adopted which placed > digital where it presently resides - as I recall it was on 1838 and not > on 1840 by the way. > > > 4) When those of us favoring FCC action on the matter inquired about > CONTESTS - (especially those on SINGLE SIDEBAND) - we were told that 160M > spectrum would "FLEX" to accommodate what would be SSB activity down to > 1803 here in the USA and above 1813 over in EU since the lower band edge > is 1810 over in Region 1 > > > In other words, if this is not cyrstal clear - it was EXPECTED that SSB > would penetrate below 1842 during an SSB contest - and that CW would > "FLEX" over the band segments that were usually considered for DIGITAL > and SSB modes.during a competitive operating event. > > > In actual practice this has worked reasonably well - until the rise of > the interest in FT8 - where some folks seem to think now that 1838-1840 > is somehow INVIOLATE. This is an INCORRECT assumption in my opinion. > > > No one 'owns" a band segment on 160M under what is a VOLUNTARY BANDPLAN - > and the band segments do "flex" in contests when there is so much > activity to warrant the overlap that naturally occurs. > > > It is also an illusory assumption to believe that since the 160m band > goes all the way to 2000khz that all space on Topband is of equivalent > VALUE during a contest event. Europe, for example, cannot operate below > 1810 and most European countries cannot run FULL POWER above 1850Khz. > Also some countries in EU today still are limited to narrow band slots > from 1810 to 1830 or from 1810 to only 1850.. So it is quite LIKELY that > during a contest event there is going to be a lot of operation around > 1838-1842 and it is not likely to be FT8 either.if the contest is a CW > event or an SSB event. > > > What needs to happen (and usually does)is that after these contests are > completed, the band FLEXES again back to our more normal, accepted > conventions - meaning that CW is usually occurring from 1810 - 1835 or so > (not by a rule - but just by gentleman's bandplanning convention) and > that SSB usually occurs above 1843 or so. > > > On a final note - W4ZV and I authored a FORMAL FCC petition after our > 160M Bandplan service was completed and over 1000 amateurs worldwide > filed supportive comments. What we asked the FCC to do was create a TRUE > CW sub-band on 160M from 1800 to 1835 or so here in the USA as I recall - > but in the end Bill Cross at the FCC ridiculed the petition and the FCC > denied it out of hand - which meant that what we have in place today is > the VOLUNTARY 160M ARRL BANDPLAN that we now follow - and we all need to > understand that NO BAND SEGMENT on 160M is reserved for anyone or any > mode. Here in the US, CW is authorized from 1800-2000 inclusive as is > SSB - what we all usually do is try to respect what we have as a bandplan > MOST OF THE TIME and not complain when a contest comes along. > > > > BY THE WAY - here's one for you. I recently witnessed an HL5IVL digital > qso where the HL5 was on FT8 around 1820 (because his 160M band was > limited to 1825 and below) and the counterparty on this same qso was on > 1840 or so on FT8.I do nope we do not see too much of this kind of > event - this one was understandable given the band restrictions in > Korea.- but it would concern me to find FT8 all over the band all the > time - because that would (most likely) create a lot of food fights going > forward. > > > At the end of the day - we must respect that 160M is a most UNUSUAL band > and there are no really HARD ans FAST inviolate sub-bands in the > traditional sense that we find on the higher bands. > > > Personally - I am not an FT8 user - but I respect the rights of others to > use this new mode. We cannot hold back technology here - that never > works very well - but we do need to understand the need to be FLEXIBLE - > especially during competitive operating events (eg: contests). > > > 73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Ed Sawyer
Re: Topband: Topband Digest, Vol 179, Issue 32
Jeff, Well put. In EI the band for CW HP extends from 1810 to 1850 only. >From our point of view it would make more sense if digimodes were in the phone band limited to lower power. The phone band has much more spectrum and is mostly vacant in Europe except of course for an SSB contest.So with a CW band limited to only 40 kHz in a CQWW 160M contest which is really active flex operating is important and a fact of life.It use to be that 1835 to 1840 was a DX window for CW! One of our good friends even suggested that FT8 stations might go to 1500 watts well this is illegal in EI unless participating in certain contests and I know of none so far for FT8. Also such an operator is going to be unpopular with his fellows just as he would be if using PSK. I too get annoyed with contesters when not contesting but there are the WARC bands sensibly kept clear of all contesting. FT8 users migrate during a big contest just as CW operators must make room during a big SSB contest on TB. The USA is not the entire world. Regulations and conditions are different.Contesting is not going to be unnecessarily confined and it appears that flexibility is expected for a major contest. We do have the WARC bands and thankfully not many contests occur during the weekdays. My good friend EI2KM aka F8FUA whose EI license is based at my QTH was on FT8 here pre and post the CQWW 160M test. He was helped in getting some issues sorted by EI6FR a FOC who is known by his friends as the "Choo Choo" for his ability to go all night and if needs be the next day using the paddle. Declan carries out a conversation whilst operating. A good CW man might well also enjoy FT8. We have a technological hobby and any mode which can delve into the noise floor is of interest. This is not a CW vs FT8 issue. Take care my good friends and keep pounding the brass. 73 Doug EI2CN ex KN4WQZ -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of topband-requ...@contesting.com Sent: 29 November 2017 20:44 To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 179, Issue 32 Send Topband mailing list submissions to topband@contesting.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to topband-requ...@contesting.com You can reach the person managing the list at topband-ow...@contesting.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: FT8 qrm (Brian D G3VGZ) 2. Re: FT8 qrm (Mark K3MSB) 3. Re: FT8 qrm (Greg) 4. FT8 discussion (Tree) 5. Re: FT8 qrm (Dave AA6YQ) 6. Re: FT8 qrm (Peter Sundberg) 7. Re: FT8 qrm (Gary Smith) 8. Re: FT8 qrm (Ed Sawyer) 9. Re: FT8 qrm (Greg) 10. Re: FT8 qrm (Bill Cromwell) 11. Re: FT8 discussion (Mike Waters) 12. Re: FT8 qrm (cqtestk...@aol.com) 13. FT8 and digital QRM (Ralph Parker) 14. Re: FT8 qrm - 3khz wideband digital (HP) 15. Re: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m (k...@aol.com) -- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 17:04:03 + From: Brian D G3VGZTo: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I shall be operating this weekend full legal limit *below* 1837.5 CW, and also FT*/JT65/JT9 at up to the legal limit above 1838. There's no reason both can't co-exist. It should be a rule in contests that all stations deliberately operatimg out of the established band usage to be disqualified. I refuse to work those stations which flaunt the band plans. "Ed Sawyer" wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is > to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is > respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. > > > > No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. > > > > If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted > mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the > way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. > > > > If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed > window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in > my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a > complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - > that should be hilarious. > > > > I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble > they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted >
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm & Bandplanning History on 160m
Hi All This FT8 discussion is fascinating really. It harkens me to remember the origins of the current ARRL 160M bandplan that we try to follow today on Topband. A number of us (myself included) were on the 160M ARRL BANDPLANNING COMMITTEE some years ago and there were several schools of thought that took place at the time: 1) A few of us (myself, W4ZV and K1KI (I think) favored a true CW sub-band on 160M as we have always had in place on the upper bands like 80/40/20/15/10. 2) However, the CHARTER of the ARRL committee was determined NOT to be inclusive of a formal petition to the FCC to establish true, formal sub-bands on 160M. 3) INSTEAD - the current bandplan was what was adopted which placed digital where it presently resides - as I recall it was on 1838 and not on 1840 by the way. 4) When those of us favoring FCC action on the matter inquired about CONTESTS - (especially those on SINGLE SIDEBAND) - we were told that 160M spectrum would "FLEX" to accommodate what would be SSB activity down to 1803 here in the USA and above 1813 over in EU since the lower band edge is 1810 over in Region 1 In other words, if this is not cyrstal clear - it was EXPECTED that SSB would penetrate below 1842 during an SSB contest - and that CW would "FLEX" over the band segments that were usually considered for DIGITAL and SSB modes.during a competitive operating event. In actual practice this has worked reasonably well - until the rise of the interest in FT8 - where some folks seem to think now that 1838-1840 is somehow INVIOLATE. This is an INCORRECT assumption in my opinion. No one 'owns" a band segment on 160M under what is a VOLUNTARY BANDPLAN - and the band segments do "flex" in contests when there is so much activity to warrant the overlap that naturally occurs. It is also an illusory assumption to believe that since the 160m band goes all the way to 2000khz that all space on Topband is of equivalent VALUE during a contest event. Europe, for example, cannot operate below 1810 and most European countries cannot run FULL POWER above 1850Khz. Also some countries in EU today still are limited to narrow band slots from 1810 to 1830 or from 1810 to only 1850.. So it is quite LIKELY that during a contest event there is going to be a lot of operation around 1838-1842 and it is not likely to be FT8 either.if the contest is a CW event or an SSB event. What needs to happen (and usually does)is that after these contests are completed, the band FLEXES again back to our more normal, accepted conventions - meaning that CW is usually occurring from 1810 - 1835 or so (not by a rule - but just by gentleman's bandplanning convention) and that SSB usually occurs above 1843 or so. On a final note - W4ZV and I authored a FORMAL FCC petition after our 160M Bandplan service was completed and over 1000 amateurs worldwide filed supportive comments. What we asked the FCC to do was create a TRUE CW sub-band on 160M from 1800 to 1835 or so here in the USA as I recall - but in the end Bill Cross at the FCC ridiculed the petition and the FCC denied it out of hand - which meant that what we have in place today is the VOLUNTARY 160M ARRL BANDPLAN that we now follow - and we all need to understand that NO BAND SEGMENT on 160M is reserved for anyone or any mode. Here in the US, CW is authorized from 1800-2000 inclusive as is SSB - what we all usually do is try to respect what we have as a bandplan MOST OF THE TIME and not complain when a contest comes along. BY THE WAY - here's one for you. I recently witnessed an HL5IVL digital qso where the HL5 was on FT8 around 1820 (because his 160M band was limited to 1825 and below) and the counterparty on this same qso was on 1840 or so on FT8.I do nope we do not see too much of this kind of event - this one was understandable given the band restrictions in Korea.- but it would concern me to find FT8 all over the band all the time - because that would (most likely) create a lot of food fights going forward. At the end of the day - we must respect that 160M is a most UNUSUAL band and there are no really HARD ans FAST inviolate sub-bands in the traditional sense that we find on the higher bands. Personally - I am not an FT8 user - but I respect the rights of others to use this new mode. We cannot hold back technology here - that never works very well - but we do need to understand the need to be FLEXIBLE - especially during competitive operating events (eg: contests). 73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM -Original Message- From: Ed SawyerTo: topband Sent: Wed, Nov 29, 2017 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm - 3khz wideband digital
My two cents is - at least with FT8 so far 99.99 percent of the folks stay in the 2 - 3 khz segment . I am amazed I see virtually nothing about the proliferation of 3 khz wideband digital two way hash on all HF bands . For instance last night on the ZA1WW on 3536 , it covered both the ZA and most of the pile calling And then there is my problem with Century link ADSL carriers every 4 khz across 160-80-40 at 5 to 10 db out of noise. On 80 happens to be 3535.934 - the ZA was about 3535.970 pretty rough . Also amazes me I seem to be the only one in the country with the 4 khz combs (which sometimes are just limited to the ham bands bottom edge up 70- 100 khz almost as if intentional ) Hank K7HP _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 and digital QRM
>I noticed a few freq cops on the cluster announcements where some FT8 users think they deserve clear >space which we know does not exist is a shared band that we have. What I have failed to understand over the years is why the digital stations were 'assigned' a spot in the middle of the 'CW bands'. How much less opportunity there would be for QRM between modes if the digital folks were up at the top of the CW area. This pretty much applies to all the HF bands. A real head-scratcher, IMHO. Disclaimer: I am mostly a CW op. VE7XF _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Although this might not be a gigantic issue on 160 it is a big issue on 20. During peak time in CQWW I was copying CW contest signals up to around 14125. Parking spots are hard to come by on 20 and 40. Nobody owns a freq, except the "pig farmers" on 75. 73 Bill KH7XS/K4XS -Original Message- From: GregTo: 'topband' Sent: Wed, Nov 29, 2017 7:26 pm Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm Jeez -- enough already...how difficult is it to avoid 2.5 khz of bandwidth that is not even in the DX portion of the band! Leave FT8 alone and fight the QRM below 1835. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 discussion
Well said. Just a few weeks ago, someone made the point that we should be thankful that there is activity up there. The gist of it was that during the year, much of the time the only activity on 160m is digital. "Use it or lose it" was his point. I do not wish to discuss this. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Nov 29, 2017 11:54 AM, "Tree"wrote: All - I think most of the issues around the FT8 spectrum use - and CW QRM have been aired. I think most of use have gotten used to seeing carriers on our spectrum displays up around 1838-1840 - and generally that doesn't present a problem for most other uses of the band. A little understanding of the new mode is useful - so people can understand how to avoid causing QRM. Thanks. The Management _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Hi Ed, Being a gentleman isn't not about putting one's own interests ahead of everybody else, either. 73, Bill KU8H On 11/29/2017 11:47 AM, Ed Sawyer wrote: I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - that should be hilarious. I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right since June. Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. 73 Ed N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband . -- bark less - wag more _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
When you say if not me, then one of the other 1000 of participants... it sounds a little like if other people are going to have poor operating technique, so should I. I never said that FT8 takes precedence over any other group. What I am saying is that there is no need to deliberately jump on a frequency that you know has other use when there is a whole band -- not just 1800 - 1860...but 1800 to 2000 khz (yes, you can use an antenna tuner in the top part of the band). I know 1840 will be overrun during the contest...because some people just don't know, don't care, or won't have an awareness of where they are operating. FT8 folks won't go away because of a few weekends of contesting either. I do have an agenda, Ed. My agenda is that it isn't any harder to be courteous than not. 73, Greg-N4CC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Sawyer Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 11:23 AM To: 'Greg'; topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm You should ask that question on the FT8 users group actually. There is an interest group that is wanting to use the frequency for a short time. When you get there (or can you tell your computer) and there is already activity - can you QSY to 30M? Why is it that the FT8 interest group takes precedence over the contesting group actually? If you think that 1838 - 1941 will remain QRM from for the 160M contest So if not me, it will be one of the other 1000 participants globally that are happy to use the found clear frequency. Sounds like you have an agenda Greg. 73 Ed N1UR -Original Message- From: Greg [mailto:n...@windstream.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:44 PM To: sawye...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: Topband: FT8 qrm Just because you have the right to be on a frequency, if you know another interest group wants to use it and it has become that group's normal operating segment -- whether by gentleman's agreement or band plan, then why do you feel the need to use that space? Just selfish I guess. No one questions the "right" to use a frequency; they question the intelligence of someone who deliberately tries to enforce their "right" when they have other options that don't create a conflict. FT8 is no more flawed than CW. If there is a pileup on the cw DX frequency, you won't be able to copy either. Does that make CW a flawed mode? I'm not advocating for FT8; I'm advocating for decency and common sense. It takes so little effort to be considerate of others...but then the world seems to be getting less hospitable all the time. Unfortunate. 73, Greg-N4CC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Sawyer Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:48 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - that should be hilarious. I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right since June. Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. 73 Ed N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
You should ask that question on the FT8 users group actually. There is an interest group that is wanting to use the frequency for a short time. When you get there (or can you tell your computer) and there is already activity - can you QSY to 30M? Why is it that the FT8 interest group takes precedence over the contesting group actually? If you think that 1838 - 1941 will remain QRM from for the 160M contest So if not me, it will be one of the other 1000 participants globally that are happy to use the found clear frequency. Sounds like you have an agenda Greg. 73 Ed N1UR -Original Message- From: Greg [mailto:n...@windstream.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:44 PM To: sawye...@earthlink.net Subject: RE: Topband: FT8 qrm Just because you have the right to be on a frequency, if you know another interest group wants to use it and it has become that group's normal operating segment -- whether by gentleman's agreement or band plan, then why do you feel the need to use that space? Just selfish I guess. No one questions the "right" to use a frequency; they question the intelligence of someone who deliberately tries to enforce their "right" when they have other options that don't create a conflict. FT8 is no more flawed than CW. If there is a pileup on the cw DX frequency, you won't be able to copy either. Does that make CW a flawed mode? I'm not advocating for FT8; I'm advocating for decency and common sense. It takes so little effort to be considerate of others...but then the world seems to be getting less hospitable all the time. Unfortunate. 73, Greg-N4CC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Sawyer Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:48 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - that should be hilarious. I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right since June. Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. 73 Ed N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
To me, the reality is FT8 is no matter how someone spins it, using a tiny part of the spectrum. A reality is few there are using power with FT8, my Cook Island contact with FT8 was with something like 40 or so watts and to many using FT8, that is high power. As I see it, here's what'll happen when people start landing in the middle of the FT8 spectrum and jumping all over those there using it; you'll see the FT8 power increase as is necessary to maintain communications & you'll have 1500 watt FT8 signals that will be in multiple simultaneous transmissions that you can't notch out with the manual or auto notch. It will ruin your contest to stay there. Bottom line is the guy parked there on CW (my favorite mode) will either stay there to make some kind of point and forfeit the contest (a'la cutting his nose to spite his face), or they'll do the smart thing and move a couple KHz away to a clear frequency and enjoy the contest without irritation. 73, Gary KA1J > I think you are missing the larger issue here. It is not *just* 2.5 > Khz out of 1800-2000. > > Consider that many folks have directional antennas that are cut for > the lower part of the band - typically covering 1800-1860 at best. So > - that 2.5 Khz starts to represent at least 4 percent of the available > usable band - possibly more. Some DX cannot operate below 1805 or > higher, which makes the band that much smaller, and that 2.5 Khz > starts to represent an even bigger chuck of prime spectrum. For FT-8 > users expecting a QRM experience this weekend, I wish them well... > > Tom - VE3CX > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Gregwrote: > > > Jeez -- enough already...how difficult is it to avoid 2.5 khz of > > bandwidth that is not even in the DX portion of the band! Leave FT8 > > alone and fight the QRM below 1835. 73, Greg-N4CC > > > > _ > > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
This is Joe Taylor K1JTs description of how WSJT-X default frequencies (windows) are established: "The authors of WSJT, MAP65, WSPR, and WSJT-X have never attempted to impose standards for operating frequencies of our various modes. Sometimes we have made initial suggestions, usually with IARU Region 2 in mind. But the frequencies in use today are effectively established by users, not by us. When conventional usage seems well enough established by the community, we have added mode-specific default frequencies to a list in WSJT-X " To me it seems pretty clear that if the software is pre-programmed with a set of default frequencies for different bands, the users are NOT spinning the VFO to find a clear space. Last summer this concept created quite a bit of commotion in Region 1 among users of a higher band as the WSJT-X default frequency was not in correspondence with the R1 bandplan. So, to answer your question Mark - Mr Taylor and his colleague authors of a software bundle. 73 Peter SM2CEW At 17:17 2017-11-29, Mark K3MSB wrote: >>established band usage Out of curiosity, exactly who "established" 1840 + 2.5 KHz as the FT8 "window"? Mark K3MSB On Nov 29, 2017 12:04 PM, "Brian D G3VGZ"wrote: I shall be operating this weekend full legal limit *below* 1837.5 CW, and also FT*/JT65/JT9 at up to the legal limit above 1838. There's no reason both can't co-exist. It should be a rule in contests that all stations deliberately operatimg out of the established band usage to be disqualified. I refuse to work those stations which flaunt the band plans. "Ed Sawyer" wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is > to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is > respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. > > > > No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. > > > > If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted > mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the > way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. > > > > If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed > window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in > my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a > complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - > that should be hilarious. > > > > I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble > they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted > exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right > since June. > > > > Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking > QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. > > > > 73 > > > > Ed N1UR > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - > http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > -- Brian D G3VGZ G3T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
1. I operate both CW and FT8 on 160m, and am far from unique in that regard. 2. WSJT-X, the application many FT8 ops utilize, includes a waterfall display that shows CW signals 3. WSJT-X gives its users control over where they transmit, so a "pre-existing" CW signal can be avoided 4. WSJT-X could be extended to be able immediately stop decoding FT8 (or JT65) signals and send QRL in CW at a frequency designated by clicking in its waterfall; many FT8 users employ relatively low power with modest antennas, however, so this may not always be effective. 5. It's not unreasonable to expect competent ops to be aware of what modes are typically used in what segments of a band, and to listen for an appropriate length of time before first transmitting to ensure they don't QRM an ongoing QSO. 73, Dave, AA6YQ -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 7:53 AM To: Wes Stewart Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm You don�t understand how the FT8 guys work. They have a 2kHz slice they all work in whether they were there first or not by usual CW practice. They only transmit every 30 seconds and no CW operator is gonna wait a whole 30 seconds for a response to QRL?. Not that a FT8 guy can respond to a QRL anyway. The vast majority of FT8 guys do not operate CW anyways. So that 2kc slice it�s not a matter of who was there �first� by CW standards. The FT8 guys have been there since June of this year and to them, June is when they were there first. And if a CW guy fires up 1-2kc away from a weak warbly FT8 carrier, he thinks nothing of it. And if the CW guy is anywhere in the wide 2kc FT8 slice then all FT8 operators will regard it as QRM that renders the entire slice worthless. It is odd that we have two fundamentally narrow bandwidth modes yet they do not coexist well. It�s ridiculous to think they could coexist in a contest weekend anyway. Those FT8 guys that were rudely surprised by CW this past weekend, that�s nothing compared to what�s gonna happen this coming weekend. Tim N3QE > On Nov 29, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Wes Stewartwrote: > > My scenario had the CW man on the frequency FIRST. > >> On 11/29/2017 4:54 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> A typical CW guy will hear FT8 or JT65 as a kinda whiny wobbly intermittent >> carrier. And will probably think it�s just some neighborhood switching power >> supply noise. He won�t CQ right on top of it (because he wants to hear a DX >> respondent) but he will have no problem firing up 500 Hz away. >> >> But the digital guys e.g. FT8 have 2khz wide filters. So there is a >> fundamental assymetry here. >> >> Tim N3QE >> >> >> Sent from my VAX-11/780 >> >>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 10:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: >>> >>> So what's the protocol when a CW man checks a frequency, hears nothing, >>> sends a couple of QRL? and hears nothing and begins to run stations. Then >>> sometime later a guy running an imaginary mode...oops...sorry, FT8 shows up >>> and wants to park on the CW man's frequency? Who is to blame? I'll answer >>> my own question: the FT8 guy who is QRMing an occupied frequency. >>> >>> Besides the FT8 guys can always resort to JTAlert to QSO via text messaging >>> as one west African station apparently tried to do with me. >>> >>> Wes N7WS >>> >>> On 11/28/2017 10:45 AM, Bryon Paul Veal N�AH wrote: There were ops all over the FT8 segments, refused to even try and work them and some were some pretty rare mults for CQWWCW...gentleman agreements are of the past.sucks PAUL. N0aH > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: FT8 discussion
All - I think most of the issues around the FT8 spectrum use - and CW QRM have been aired. I think most of use have gotten used to seeing carriers on our spectrum displays up around 1838-1840 - and generally that doesn't present a problem for most other uses of the band. A little understanding of the new mode is useful - so people can understand how to avoid causing QRM. Thanks. The Management _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Just because you have the right to be on a frequency, if you know another interest group wants to use it and it has become that group's normal operating segment -- whether by gentleman's agreement or band plan, then why do you feel the need to use that space? Just selfish I guess. No one questions the "right" to use a frequency; they question the intelligence of someone who deliberately tries to enforce their "right" when they have other options that don't create a conflict. FT8 is no more flawed than CW. If there is a pileup on the cw DX frequency, you won't be able to copy either. Does that make CW a flawed mode? I'm not advocating for FT8; I'm advocating for decency and common sense. It takes so little effort to be considerate of others...but then the world seems to be getting less hospitable all the time. Unfortunate. 73, Greg-N4CC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Ed Sawyer Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:48 AM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - that should be hilarious. I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right since June. Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. 73 Ed N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
>>established band usage Out of curiosity, exactly who "established" 1840 + 2.5 KHz as the FT8 "window"? Mark K3MSB On Nov 29, 2017 12:04 PM, "Brian D G3VGZ"wrote: I shall be operating this weekend full legal limit *below* 1837.5 CW, and also FT*/JT65/JT9 at up to the legal limit above 1838. There's no reason both can't co-exist. It should be a rule in contests that all stations deliberately operatimg out of the established band usage to be disqualified. I refuse to work those stations which flaunt the band plans. "Ed Sawyer" wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is > to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is > respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. > > > > No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. > > > > If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted > mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the > way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. > > > > If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed > window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in > my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a > complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - > that should be hilarious. > > > > I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble > they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted > exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right > since June. > > > > Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking > QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. > > > > 73 > > > > Ed N1UR > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - > http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > -- Brian D G3VGZ G3T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
I shall be operating this weekend full legal limit *below* 1837.5 CW, and also FT*/JT65/JT9 at up to the legal limit above 1838. There's no reason both can't co-exist. It should be a rule in contests that all stations deliberately operatimg out of the established band usage to be disqualified. I refuse to work those stations which flaunt the band plans. "Ed Sawyer"wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is > to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is > respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. > > > > No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. > > > > If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted > mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the > way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. > > > > If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed > window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in > my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a > complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - > that should be hilarious. > > > > I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble > they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted > exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right > since June. > > > > Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking > QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. > > > > 73 > > > > Ed N1UR > > _ Topband Reflector Archives - > http://www.contesting.com/_topband > > -- Brian D G3VGZ G3T _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument that the way to be a "gentleman" is to accept everyone else's interests above your own. A "gentleman" is respectful of others and treats others as he/she wants to be treated. No one owns a frequency channel at least in the US - read your license. If I come on a frequency, hear nothing, ask QRL using a legal and accepted mode for the frequency and hear nothing, I am using the frequency. By the way - even the ARRL admits there is no longer a "DX Window" on 160M. If FT8 is such a fragile mode to QRM that it needs a 2khz undisturbed window, then it is a flawed mode that will not stand the test of time in my opinion. I am already starting to hear DX side people saying it's a complete waste of time and abandoning it. I hear 3Y is going to try it - that should be hilarious. I think that most of the FT8 crowd is horribly misinformed with dribble they read on the internet and think that some "net authority" has granted exclusive access to said frequency band and that they have had such right since June. Look for me on 1840 in the ARRL 160 this weekend after listening, asking QRL, and seeing if I am disturbing anyone in my 400hz receiving window. 73 Ed N1UR _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
I think you are missing the larger issue here. It is not *just* 2.5 Khz out of 1800-2000. Consider that many folks have directional antennas that are cut for the lower part of the band - typically covering 1800-1860 at best. So - that 2.5 Khz starts to represent at least 4 percent of the available usable band - possibly more. Some DX cannot operate below 1805 or higher, which makes the band that much smaller, and that 2.5 Khz starts to represent an even bigger chuck of prime spectrum. For FT-8 users expecting a QRM experience this weekend, I wish them well... Tom - VE3CX On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Gregwrote: > Jeez -- enough already...how difficult is it to avoid 2.5 khz of bandwidth > that is not even in the DX portion of the band! Leave FT8 alone and fight > the QRM below 1835. 73, Greg-N4CC > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
I've been watching this thread with interest, having recently taken the plunge and experimented with FT8 (but got bored very quickly!). Three comments on aspects that I don't think have been covered: 1. FT8 is very new (albeit it seems to be taking the world by storm) and I suspect many operators are unaware of where it exists on the bands, unless they are data modes operators themselves (which, typically, many long-term topband operators are not) 2. Many FT8 "users" are actually computers - I know of a number of folk who have automated FT8 to the extent that they go to bed at night and in the morning look to see what their PC has "worked". As far as I know, their PC doesn't specifically check for a clear channel although it will normally be trying to find a slot between other FT8 signals within the audio bandwidth. 3. Apropos of which, most FT8 QSO are split frequency - it makes no sense to call a station co-channel. So even if a frequency appears to be clear, it may be that there is a station already in QSO with an FT8 QSO partner 1kHz or more away (the WSJT software handles this "split" operation automatically). So a quick "QRL?" will not be heard. As is usually the case in life, nothing is simple! 73 Don G3XTT On 29 November 2017 at 15:49, Roger Parsons via Topband < topband@contesting.com> wrote: > Perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread! > > > The whole point of my original posting was that I was definitely > transmitting more than 500Hz HF of the FT8 tones, so from an 'analogue' > perspective there should have been no problem. As others have mentioned, > FT8 is received though an SSB bandwidth filter. Where wideband noise is the > limiting factor on reception (eg VHF) it is a valid technique to put the > ultimate selectivity at the end of the receive chain. It is not valid where > there are likely to be strong signals from some other mode within the > receiver IF passband. Therefore, my opinion FT8 (and many other digital > modes) are not suitable in situations where there is intense activity on > nearby frequencies. I think it is unreasonable to suggest that there should > be an unused 'guard band' just to overcome receiver and system deficiencies. > > > (And of course I am aware that these limitations could be overcome using > SDR architecture, but that is another story.) > > > 73 Roger > VE3ZI > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
I think we may be missing a key point...There are probably many 1000’s of 160m cw/ssb ops out there who have never heard –or heard of- FT8. They probably think the noisy tone they hear is some local QRN and don’t relate it at all to another ham signal. We all have to live with some QRM once in a while so try and make the best of it – along with some better advertising about the data frequencies in common use. Remember to have fun guys jay ny2ny _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Jeez -- enough already...how difficult is it to avoid 2.5 khz of bandwidth that is not even in the DX portion of the band! Leave FT8 alone and fight the QRM below 1835. 73, Greg-N4CC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
As has been said, 160 meter FT8 transmissions are all within the audio bandwidth of an SSB signal on 1840 although technically they could operate anywhere on the 160 meter band.That said, I've never heard anyone operate FT8 outside of that slot, and for good reason. However, would the folks that would call QRL on CW and operate in the middle of that slot, potentially QRMing many FT8 QSO's in progress be willing to support someone on FT8 start calling CQ in the middle of the DX window on 160?After all, they may be wanting to work DX! Yes, that's a silly argument, and I in no way would suggest anyone do that, but it illustrates a point. It's easy to look at any mode other than your preferred mode at the time as being QRM, but their interests are as valid as the next guy's.Then there are the well-established nets that fire up at a certain time on a certain frequency that creates the "I was here first" versus the "A lot of folks know to meet here on this freq at this time" competing interests. Very few of us know all of the competing interests, so people just need to be gentlemen (and ladies) and work together to make it a better experience for all. ...Dave - N9FN -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Michael Walker Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:58 AM To: Bill CromwellCc: topband Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm Yes, you could and should. It needs to be looked from everyone's point of view. Of course, that deal falls apart for the 20m sstv guys. They own the frequency. Mike On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Bill Cromwell wrote: > Hi, > > Well...we could look at who was on first from the CW op's point of > view just as easily. It just depends on who's ox is being gored. As > for not listening longer than a few seconds after QRL that is just > reasonable. Some of us (me for example) listen around for five or ten > minutes *before* sending QRL. Filters open. Waterfall on (if we have > them). Nobody in ham radio has been assigned a frequency that 'belongs to them'. > > That said, there are "gentlemen's agreements". Those only apply *if* > there are gentlemen. The band offers 200 kc of spectrum - at least for U.S. hams. > That seems like a great plenty. It's the "Gentlemen's Band" so lets > get back to being gentlemen and accommodate all of the other gentlemen > (and ladies too). Maybe we can infect some of the other bands with > more civility while we are at it. > > 73, > > Bill KU8H > > > On 11/29/2017 07:59 AM, Michael Walker wrote: > >> Tim is correct. >> >> Also, when you do operate most digital modes today (FT8, RTTY, JT65, >> etc), it is 50/50 if you even have the volume turned up as you are >> focusing on the waterfall. Heck, even when I do RTTY, I usually just >> watch the cross hairs on the simulated scope since that is the way I grew with RTTY. >> >> The point is that hams own the spectrum and they get to do with it >> what they choose within the limits of their license. Worldwide. >> >> No one makes you use any mode you don't want to. Spin the dial. Move on. >> Life is too short. >> >> Mike va3mw >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> > -- > bark less - wag more > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Perhaps I shouldn't have started this thread! The whole point of my original posting was that I was definitely transmitting more than 500Hz HF of the FT8 tones, so from an 'analogue' perspective there should have been no problem. As others have mentioned, FT8 is received though an SSB bandwidth filter. Where wideband noise is the limiting factor on reception (eg VHF) it is a valid technique to put the ultimate selectivity at the end of the receive chain. It is not valid where there are likely to be strong signals from some other mode within the receiver IF passband. Therefore, my opinion FT8 (and many other digital modes) are not suitable in situations where there is intense activity on nearby frequencies. I think it is unreasonable to suggest that there should be an unused 'guard band' just to overcome receiver and system deficiencies. (And of course I am aware that these limitations could be overcome using SDR architecture, but that is another story.) 73 Roger VE3ZI _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Yes, you could and should. It needs to be looked from everyone's point of view. Of course, that deal falls apart for the 20m sstv guys. They own the frequency. Mike On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Bill Cromwellwrote: > Hi, > > Well...we could look at who was on first from the CW op's point of view > just as easily. It just depends on who's ox is being gored. As for not > listening longer than a few seconds after QRL that is just reasonable. Some > of us (me for example) listen around for five or ten minutes *before* > sending QRL. Filters open. Waterfall on (if we have them). Nobody in ham > radio has been assigned a frequency that 'belongs to them'. > > That said, there are "gentlemen's agreements". Those only apply *if* there > are gentlemen. The band offers 200 kc of spectrum - at least for U.S. hams. > That seems like a great plenty. It's the "Gentlemen's Band" so lets get > back to being gentlemen and accommodate all of the other gentlemen (and > ladies too). Maybe we can infect some of the other bands with more civility > while we are at it. > > 73, > > Bill KU8H > > > On 11/29/2017 07:59 AM, Michael Walker wrote: > >> Tim is correct. >> >> Also, when you do operate most digital modes today (FT8, RTTY, JT65, etc), >> it is 50/50 if you even have the volume turned up as you are focusing on >> the waterfall. Heck, even when I do RTTY, I usually just watch the cross >> hairs on the simulated scope since that is the way I grew with RTTY. >> >> The point is that hams own the spectrum and they get to do with it what >> they choose within the limits of their license. Worldwide. >> >> No one makes you use any mode you don't want to. Spin the dial. Move on. >> Life is too short. >> >> Mike va3mw >> _ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> >> > -- > bark less - wag more > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Hi, Well...we could look at who was on first from the CW op's point of view just as easily. It just depends on who's ox is being gored. As for not listening longer than a few seconds after QRL that is just reasonable. Some of us (me for example) listen around for five or ten minutes *before* sending QRL. Filters open. Waterfall on (if we have them). Nobody in ham radio has been assigned a frequency that 'belongs to them'. That said, there are "gentlemen's agreements". Those only apply *if* there are gentlemen. The band offers 200 kc of spectrum - at least for U.S. hams. That seems like a great plenty. It's the "Gentlemen's Band" so lets get back to being gentlemen and accommodate all of the other gentlemen (and ladies too). Maybe we can infect some of the other bands with more civility while we are at it. 73, Bill KU8H On 11/29/2017 07:59 AM, Michael Walker wrote: Tim is correct. Also, when you do operate most digital modes today (FT8, RTTY, JT65, etc), it is 50/50 if you even have the volume turned up as you are focusing on the waterfall. Heck, even when I do RTTY, I usually just watch the cross hairs on the simulated scope since that is the way I grew with RTTY. The point is that hams own the spectrum and they get to do with it what they choose within the limits of their license. Worldwide. No one makes you use any mode you don't want to. Spin the dial. Move on. Life is too short. Mike va3mw _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband -- bark less - wag more _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160 inverted L radials question
Hi folks:Iam in the process to reinstall an inverted L antenna. Due to the category 5 hurricane that passthru the island of ST.CROIX usvi i loss 2 towers and antennas.one of the towers use to support and inverted L antenna for 160 with radials all over the tower. I will reinstall the inverted L on a different location about 25 or 30 feet away from the original location.my question is could i use the same radials from the previous location just running one wire attach to the radial system to the new inverted Lground section? ThanksKP2BH/Jimmy _ Jimmy,The replies you are getting seem a bit over the top ... forgive me for saying that to those that replied “it won’t work”. We’re talking about160 here – so 30’ is what, 0.06 WL’s! I’d do it if that is what you can do ... and add to it in the opposite direction... I doubt seriously thatyou’re going to see any real disadvantage to doing it in this manner. You’ll have decreased losses where you have the more denseground field unless you can add to it going in the direction you’re moving it in which case it won’t really make that much difference. Gary K9RX _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Tim is correct. Also, when you do operate most digital modes today (FT8, RTTY, JT65, etc), it is 50/50 if you even have the volume turned up as you are focusing on the waterfall. Heck, even when I do RTTY, I usually just watch the cross hairs on the simulated scope since that is the way I grew with RTTY. The point is that hams own the spectrum and they get to do with it what they choose within the limits of their license. Worldwide. No one makes you use any mode you don't want to. Spin the dial. Move on. Life is too short. Mike va3mw _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
You don’t understand how the FT8 guys work. They have a 2kHz slice they all work in whether they were there first or not by usual CW practice. They only transmit every 30 seconds and no CW operator is gonna wait a whole 30 seconds for a response to QRL?. Not that a FT8 guy can respond to a QRL anyway. The vast majority of FT8 guys do not operate CW anyways. So that 2kc slice it’s not a matter of who was there “first” by CW standards. The FT8 guys have been there since June of this year and to them, June is when they were there first. And if a CW guy fires up 1-2kc away from a weak warbly FT8 carrier, he thinks nothing of it. And if the CW guy is anywhere in the wide 2kc FT8 slice then all FT8 operators will regard it as QRM that renders the entire slice worthless. It is odd that we have two fundamentally narrow bandwidth modes yet they do not coexist well. It’s ridiculous to think they could coexist in a contest weekend anyway. Those FT8 guys that were rudely surprised by CW this past weekend, that’s nothing compared to what’s gonna happen this coming weekend. Tim N3QE > On Nov 29, 2017, at 7:29 AM, Wes Stewartwrote: > > My scenario had the CW man on the frequency FIRST. > >> On 11/29/2017 4:54 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> A typical CW guy will hear FT8 or JT65 as a kinda whiny wobbly intermittent >> carrier. And will probably think it’s just some neighborhood switching power >> supply noise. He won’t CQ right on top of it (because he wants to hear a DX >> respondent) but he will have no problem firing up 500 Hz away. >> >> But the digital guys e.g. FT8 have 2khz wide filters. So there is a >> fundamental assymetry here. >> >> Tim N3QE >> >> >> Sent from my VAX-11/780 >> >>> On Nov 28, 2017, at 10:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: >>> >>> So what's the protocol when a CW man checks a frequency, hears nothing, >>> sends a couple of QRL? and hears nothing and begins to run stations. Then >>> sometime later a guy running an imaginary mode...oops...sorry, FT8 shows up >>> and wants to park on the CW man's frequency? Who is to blame? I'll answer >>> my own question: the FT8 guy who is QRMing an occupied frequency. >>> >>> Besides the FT8 guys can always resort to JTAlert to QSO via text messaging >>> as one west African station apparently tried to do with me. >>> >>> Wes N7WS >>> >>> On 11/28/2017 10:45 AM, Bryon Paul Veal NØAH wrote: There were ops all over the FT8 segments, refused to even try and work them and some were some pretty rare mults for CQWWCW...gentleman agreements are of the past.sucks PAUL. N0aH > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
My scenario had the CW man on the frequency FIRST. On 11/29/2017 4:54 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: A typical CW guy will hear FT8 or JT65 as a kinda whiny wobbly intermittent carrier. And will probably think it’s just some neighborhood switching power supply noise. He won’t CQ right on top of it (because he wants to hear a DX respondent) but he will have no problem firing up 500 Hz away. But the digital guys e.g. FT8 have 2khz wide filters. So there is a fundamental assymetry here. Tim N3QE Sent from my VAX-11/780 On Nov 28, 2017, at 10:50 PM, Wes Stewartwrote: So what's the protocol when a CW man checks a frequency, hears nothing, sends a couple of QRL? and hears nothing and begins to run stations. Then sometime later a guy running an imaginary mode...oops...sorry, FT8 shows up and wants to park on the CW man's frequency? Who is to blame? I'll answer my own question: the FT8 guy who is QRMing an occupied frequency. Besides the FT8 guys can always resort to JTAlert to QSO via text messaging as one west African station apparently tried to do with me. Wes N7WS On 11/28/2017 10:45 AM, Bryon Paul Veal NØAH wrote: There were ops all over the FT8 segments, refused to even try and work them and some were some pretty rare mults for CQWWCW...gentleman agreements are of the past.sucks PAUL. N0aH _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
A typical CW guy will hear FT8 or JT65 as a kinda whiny wobbly intermittent carrier. And will probably think it’s just some neighborhood switching power supply noise. He won’t CQ right on top of it (because he wants to hear a DX respondent) but he will have no problem firing up 500 Hz away. But the digital guys e.g. FT8 have 2khz wide filters. So there is a fundamental assymetry here. Tim N3QE Sent from my VAX-11/780 > On Nov 28, 2017, at 10:50 PM, Wes Stewartwrote: > > So what's the protocol when a CW man checks a frequency, hears nothing, sends > a couple of QRL? and hears nothing and begins to run stations. Then sometime > later a guy running an imaginary mode...oops...sorry, FT8 shows up and wants > to park on the CW man's frequency? Who is to blame? I'll answer my own > question: the FT8 guy who is QRMing an occupied frequency. > > Besides the FT8 guys can always resort to JTAlert to QSO via text messaging > as one west African station apparently tried to do with me. > > Wes N7WS > > >> On 11/28/2017 10:45 AM, Bryon Paul Veal NØAH wrote: >> There were ops all over the FT8 segments, refused to even try and work them >> and some were some pretty rare mults for CQWWCW...gentleman agreements are >> of the past.sucks >> >> PAUL. N0aH >> > > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: 160m beacons list update
Hi JC, thanks. The YR2TOP beacon responsible is YO2LC se we should talk about it to him. If I understood well what he is doing to preserve the band a bit is that his 100W beacon is turned off during the big contests. Yes, the frequency of the beacon as same as 100W out is an unhappy choice I guess... 73 - Petr, OK1RP On Wed, Nov 29, 2017, at 12:03 PM, JC wrote: > Hi Petr > > I kind understand your request, however I would like to share my view, > Beacon on 160m is really DQRM, like YO on 1810.5 running 100w. Several DX > stations runs 100w and work thousands of QSO.s. Please how is responsible > for the YO beacon, turn it off, please again. > > The MUF is always above 3 MHz! > > 160m is very narrow 50KHz for most countries. Beacons on 160m just eat > band > and DQRM. > > My two cents, > > JC > N4IS > > -Original Message- > From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Petr > Ourednik > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 4:54 AM > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Topband: 160m beacons list update > > Hello all, > > just FYI, I updated the beacons list today. > > I will be appreciated to get any report or info about beacons from 160m > band > in Your location to put it into the list or to update it here > accordingly... > > https://160mband.blogspot.ch/2015/07/160m-band-beacons-list.html\ > > Thank you for your kind help, > > 73 - Petr, OK1RP > -- > http://ok1rp.blogspot.com > _ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > -- 73 - Petr, OK1RP B: goo.gl/Fd2JhJ G+: goo.gl/w3u2s9 G+: goo.gl/gP99xq _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: FT8 qrm
Wes I agree 100%; different protocol for two different species. I have ears and not a USB port! My PC does. N4IS JC -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 10:50 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: FT8 qrm So what's the protocol when a CW man checks a frequency, hears nothing, sends a couple of QRL? and hears nothing and begins to run stations. Then sometime later a guy running an imaginary mode...oops...sorry, FT8 shows up and wants to park on the CW man's frequency? Who is to blame? I'll answer my own question: the FT8 guy who is QRMing an occupied frequency. Besides the FT8 guys can always resort to JTAlert to QSO via text messaging as one west African station apparently tried to do with me. Wes N7WS On 11/28/2017 10:45 AM, Bryon Paul Veal NØAH wrote: > There were ops all over the FT8 segments, refused to even try and work > them and some were some pretty rare mults for CQWWCW...gentleman > agreements are of the past.sucks > > PAUL. N0aH > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: 160m beacons list update
Hello all, just FYI, I updated the beacons list today. I will be appreciated to get any report or info about beacons from 160m band in Your location to put it into the list or to update it here accordingly... https://160mband.blogspot.ch/2015/07/160m-band-beacons-list.html\ Thank you for your kind help, 73 - Petr, OK1RP -- http://ok1rp.blogspot.com _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband