Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[VK3HJ]

Having gone from 100% phone operations to more than 90% CW in the past ten 
years, I have my opinions on mode use, but I'll attempt to keep them 
relevant.


I have played a bit with RTTY and PSK, and have made a few Hellschreiber and 
Olivia contacts. Digital modes are technically interesting, but not 
attractive to me, at this time. I'll never say never! The above modes can be 
used to converse, compared with the very technically clever JT modes which 
are so pared-down, that only the very bare essentials are passed. That 
appeals to some, even many amateur operators, for various reasons already 
discussed. I will not criticise those who enjoy operating that way.


After an unproductive session on Top Band last night, I went to 40 m for an 
"easy" DX CW QSO before retiring to bed. I don't feel the need to field 
pileups of "short QSO" every time I transmit, and really do enjoy a few or 
several minutes of exchanges with the other operator. Nor do I feel the need 
to log "x" number of QSO every time I light my station.


On most, if not all of our DX bands, there is adequate, if not plenty of 
spectrum to separate the various modes and type of digital modes into their 
sub-bands to reduce or hopefully eliminate conflict. One good thing about 
the new very narrow-band digital modes is that one can fit a bunch of 
activity into a few kilohertz of spectrum.


My point is, how about we keep mode sub-bands harmonised internationally, so 
each can co-exist without upsetting the neighbours? We don't need an IARU 
Conference every time a new mode is invented. There are plenty of interest 
groups that can coordinate internationally, given the almost universal 
common medium of the Internet.


This year, I resolve to become proficient in the use of my Vibroplex Bug!

73,

Luke VK3HJ 


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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Matt NQ6N]

This is a very interesting discussion. I'd noticed some bugs in DXpedition
mode with FT8 but am looking forward to those being resolved. I'd suggest
an alternative FT8 frequency for any and all participants to test out
DXPedition mode while the bugs get worked out.

I have an inverted L on 160m and after about 300W on TX I become severely
limited by my lack of RX antennas and become an alligator.  For what it's
worth, the existence of FT8 does not reduce my interest in improving my RX
antennas whatsoever.  I've worked one or two new countries on 160 on FT8
that I hadn't worked yet on CW.  I know that from 9 land even if I maximize
the investment of money and engineering at my QTH toward RX antennas, I'll
still be able to complete more QSOs on FT8 than on CW due to the processing
gain of FT8.

As someone who has (for various reasons) not had the chance (yet) to put up
competitive antennas, the DX bug has bitten me most noticeably with FT8.
When the software prints out a line that shows up purple meaning it's a new
country I get a big rush of adrenaline.  It makes doing ham radio from the
black hole a lot more fun. And yes, it's quite a thrill to CQ on 160m FT8
and see RX reports light up across Europe on pskreporter.  I'm still an
alligator, but I now have a much better sense of the DX QSOs I'm missing
out on.

So overall I think that FT8 is a great thing for DXing. Yes, it does alter
the fairness of the honor roll competition because of the processing gain,
but if we wanted it to be completely fair we'd incorporate all gain (from
antennas and processing) and use some distance-based metric, handicapping
stations closer to the DX such that they'd be forced to use lower power,
etc.  DXing was absolutely not "fair" before FT8, so I don't think that we
have much to worry about with the advent of FT8 other than a flood of new
DXers joining the fun in the pileups.

73,
Matt NQ6N/9



On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:15 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
>> without it's human pushing the green keys?
>>
> Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
> than 50 years:
>  
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:
>
>> "Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
>> entities."
>>
>> This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
>> prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up
>> with
>> a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
>> to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.
>>
>> Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
>> think many others agree with that sentiment.
>>
>> I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
>> supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.
>>
>> Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to
>> the
>> process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
>> However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
>> One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
>> That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
>> than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
>> time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
>> the green keys?
>>
>> 73, Tony K4QE
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
>> wrote:
>>
>> When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
>>> bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
>>> Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
>>> CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
>>> report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
>>> able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7
>>> while
>>> perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
>>> unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
>>> much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
>>> years.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:
>>>
>>> My thoughts on FT8:


 -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
 comments
 Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
 could
 see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
 made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

 -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
 people right now - unattended.

 -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going
 24/7
 (which means unattended) on T31.

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Brian Pease]

I predict that it won't be long before there is an FT-8 robot, or 
something similar, on the Moon!  What better way to test a new antenna 
than a long haul s/n report?
No one has mention Amateur satellites yet that in some cases have 
allowed working thousands of miles with a handheld.


On 3/30/2018 3:54 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
I've "made a contact", if you want to call it that, with that robot 
twice now.  That's about the only use I have for FT8; making contacts 
that shouldn't count for anything, although, I think ARRL accepts them 
for the grid chase thingy.


Wes  N7WS

ps. At least it didn't send me a text via JTAlert telling me what to 
send next, as happened on a "QSO" with some west African station.


On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Jamie WW3S wrote:
actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research 
Foundation has an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for 
humpback whales, and the drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on 
board, passing out FT8 contacts as it motors around the 
pacificlast I looked made a little over 1100 qsos.from some 
pretty rare grid squares  


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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing

[Larry]

You missed the horror of SSB (c 1950s) - who wants to sound like Donald 
Duck?


73, Larry W6NWS

On 3/30/2018 8:42 PM, John K9UWA wrote:

Horrors FT8  and Digital JT65 etc?

REAL Horrors QRO stations making contacts on FT8?

Horrors SSB that Donald Duck stuff isn't PHONE?

Horrors RTTY REAL hams do CW and PHONE?

Horrors Multiple Guess FCC tests for hams?

Horrors No Code Hams?

Horrors using a Computer to Log your contacts?

Horrors Computer Duping in contests?

Horrors using Packet Cluster?

Horrors using 2 mtr spotting network among your local buddies?

Horrors using Echo Link?

Horrors REPEATERS?

Horrors using QRO said the QRP'er?

Horors making the Black Hole of the Midwest compete against the East Coast
Wall of signals evenly in a contest?

Horrors RHR?

Horrors Messing up the Ham Bands with some Silly Contest? Everybody is
FiveNine even if you can't hear them?

Horrors Messing up the "Nets"

Horrors working DX from a "List" When Last Heard u were 4//5 4/5 4/5 Net guy..
give him the last number again?

Horrors making me with the dipole in the attic compete even up in contests with
the guys with 4 hi stacks of monobanders?

The list goes on and on. Yet the above is the progression of Ham Radio. None of
us do all of it. All of us do Some of it.

Everyone has an OPINION as to what is OK and what is Not OK by their rules and
morals. Probably an honest poll of all on the topband reflector I doubt you 
would
get many votes on the above list that were identical as to yes, no or maybe on
every point above. Given a bit of time I am sure I could think up a few more.

John k9uwa
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing

[John K9UWA]

Horrors FT8  and Digital JT65 etc?

REAL Horrors QRO stations making contacts on FT8?

Horrors SSB that Donald Duck stuff isn't PHONE?

Horrors RTTY REAL hams do CW and PHONE?

Horrors Multiple Guess FCC tests for hams?

Horrors No Code Hams?

Horrors using a Computer to Log your contacts?

Horrors Computer Duping in contests?

Horrors using Packet Cluster?

Horrors using 2 mtr spotting network among your local buddies?

Horrors using Echo Link?

Horrors REPEATERS?

Horrors using QRO said the QRP'er?

Horors making the Black Hole of the Midwest compete against the East Coast 
Wall of signals evenly in a contest? 

Horrors RHR?

Horrors Messing up the Ham Bands with some Silly Contest? Everybody is 
FiveNine even if you can't hear them?

Horrors Messing up the "Nets" 

Horrors working DX from a "List" When Last Heard u were 4//5 4/5 4/5 Net guy.. 
give him the last number again?

Horrors making me with the dipole in the attic compete even up in contests with 
the guys with 4 hi stacks of monobanders?

The list goes on and on. Yet the above is the progression of Ham Radio. None of 
us do all of it. All of us do Some of it.

Everyone has an OPINION as to what is OK and what is Not OK by their rules and 
morals. Probably an honest poll of all on the topband reflector I doubt you 
would 
get many votes on the above list that were identical as to yes, no or maybe on 
every point above. Given a bit of time I am sure I could think up a few more. 

John k9uwa
John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF 
Antique Radio Restorations
k9...@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426

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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

When was the last time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back
without it's human pushing the green keys?

Mechanical RTTY machines have had answerback (WRU) capability for more
than 50 years:
 

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 2:21 PM, Anthony Scandurra wrote:

"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


My thoughts on FT8:


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
count
me out of that list.


Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:

The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in and counted for
DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner as
traditional contacts.


The difference in sensitivity between FT8 and CW is about as much as
between AM and CW.  There is no thought of banning CW from Mixed DXCC
so why should FT8 be treated any differently?  What FT8 does is allow
those who are not running California Killowatts on 160 meters a real
chance of success where they had no shot previously.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraym...@iowatelecom.net wrote:

Hello George. . .

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I don't believe most hams have any 
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for 
hams with limited facilities.  The rub comes in when those contacts are 
lumped in and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in 
the same manner as traditional contacts.  To use your boat analogy 
below, it's like putting a power boat in the same race with a sailboat.  
They both have their merits. . .but they are simply two different 
things.  That said, there will always be people seeking equal 
recognition without having to make the effort. . . that's become a given 
in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: GEORGE WALLNER
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraym...@iowatelecom.net ; k...@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not 
be a

surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way 
outperform

sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.

C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
   wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW 
(alas). Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them 
are virtually meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, 
reasonable radial system, and 100w can easily accomplish on topband 
(and get equal DXCC credit) what has historically taken a significant 
effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for 
the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to this mode with the 
improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively little skill on 
the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is disappointing to 
watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, 
but I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking 
place right before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its 
possible implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls 
read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a 
real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success 
doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has 
managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on 
Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done 
Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion 
on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and 
its possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in 
his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including 
NO3M and me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS 
may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU 
stations in there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but 
QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I 
know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so 
over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged 
no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun 
came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
> reliable distance communications with particular people with real
> communications, like texting over the phone or email.

FT8 is not a "conversational mode" and can't (absent an internet
connection) be used for texting.

> I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
> communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
> solar charged batteries are all there is.

FT8 has a limited protocol - it is not useful *AT ALL* for passing
emergency communications other than "are you there"/"yes I'm here"
type messages.  This is also why - unless you're willing to reduce
contest exchanges to callsign and grid (4 character) square - FT8
is useless for contesting.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

The awards usually come with CW, SSB and digital as categories.

What I see is FT8 displacing RTTY for awards, but not for contesting.

What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
reliable distance communications with particular people with real
communications, like texting over the phone or email. Just exactly how far
that is on 160 at high noon yet to be determined.

I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy

**
*Lowering SWR does *
*   not *
*   predict performance.*

*A dummy load, *
*   with its perfect SWR, *
*   is a worse antenna *
*   than a light bulb. *

*First discern and remove *
*   the loss in low band*
*   antenna systems.*
*--*

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:


I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced
CW for my DXing.

I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M
DXCCs worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY
for.

I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big
part of his DX diet.

DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour.
Right now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there
are no problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the
rate can drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may
alleviate (through parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem
from bringing everything to a halt.

Tim N3QE


On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  <

daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:


IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).

Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. .
.Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is

Upon us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but

I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current

dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion

on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in

his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M
and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in

Re: Topband: My personal thinking

[Ed Sawyer]

As I said in the post - "in my opinion".  You are most free to disagree with
it.  Other people's opinions should never be disturbing when no personal
attack is made.  And none was.

 

Regardless of the above.  Very sorry if my opinion offended anyone.

 

73

 

Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: low inv-vee

[Wes Stewart]

1)  I have yet to (and likely never will) install an RX only antenna.  Hence, I 
receive on the same inverted-L I transmit on.  It's been my experience that I 
still hear better than I get out with 500W.  Perhaps it is just operator skill 
that makes it possible.  :-)


2)  "Poor" is rather subjective.  Compared to some fellow club members who run 
NA7TB I have a poor antenna.  Compared to others with 40 foot verticals in deed 
restricted locations, I have a great antenna.


Regardless, I completed working my TB DXCC this season, which was my goal.

Wes  N7WS

On 3/30/2018 10:47 AM, Rob Atkinson wrote:

1.  You never use an inverted L or other vertical for receiving,
unless maybe, you are in a QTH so remote and noise free it might work.
But in-town, forget it.

2,  From my experience, 7 or 8 out of 10 hams on 160 m., have poor
antennas, usually low horizontal wires.  Most of these fellows are
casual operators who ragchew and are okay as long as they understand
the limits of their antennas.

Rob
K5UJ
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Re: Topband: My Personal Thinking

[Glenn Wyant]

Personally I find these thoughts disturbing.
Are we to judge ourselves and our morals , interests etc
against the beliefs of some unknown individual, sitting
at his keyboard from god knows where ?

Ed you are basically saying that those who use modes (ft8)
not approved by " your standards are unworthy".

If you feel ft8 etc is not for you, thats fine, but do not
begrade others by the operating choices they make.

It seems that the reflectors have provided a forum for some
folks to accuse and berate others who have dissimilar interests.

I feel that this behaviour in the long run will be the eventual
demise of the hobby. Although I hope I am wrong.


Glenn VA3DX



Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:17 PM
Subject: Topband: My Personal Thinking



Ed, N1UR said:
-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve 
what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important 
we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror 
folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, 
count

me out of that list.


_
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[GEORGE WALLNER]

Greg,
In concert with HA7RY (Tomi), one night I was monitoring OH8X while the 
monster Yagi was still up. At Tomi's QTH (in Hungary) it was very loud. I 
could barely copy it in FL.
I worked EU stations that were much stronger. I think the antenna was too 
low and there was too much high-angle radiation. If they just would have 
made it vertical...

73,
George.
AA7JV

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:33:17 +1300
 Greg - ZL3IX  wrote:

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in particular OH. 
I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of exactly when they were 
QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna had produced results, they would 
have been a lot more active. We can certainly draw inferences from that!

In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations with 
vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any propagation at 
all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas to benefit.

Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.

73, Greg, ZL3IX

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.


_
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Topband: My Personal Thinking

[Charles W. Shaw]

Hello!  See Subject:  (above)

And there are those of us who just want our 9 Band DXCC 
using nothing but CW, and using just wire antennas and two Black 
Diamond poles.  I have the CW certificates, but had to use more than 
100 watts on 160, 80, and 40 meters.


73,
CHAS, N5UL
Hobbs, NM


Ed, N1UR said:
-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.
-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
me out of that list.

_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Wes Stewart]

I've "made a contact", if you want to call it that, with that robot twice now.  
That's about the only use I have for FT8; making contacts that shouldn't count 
for anything, although, I think ARRL accepts them for the grid chase thingy.


Wes  N7WS

ps. At least it didn't send me a text via JTAlert telling me what to send next, 
as happened on a "QSO" with some west African station.


On 3/30/2018 12:23 PM, Jamie WW3S wrote:
actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research Foundation has 
an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for humpback whales, and the 
drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on board, passing out FT8 contacts 
as it motors around the pacificlast I looked made a little over 1100 
qsos.from some pretty rare grid squares  


_
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Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[cqtestk4xs--- via Topband]

Another thought on this.


I visited W8JI's station some years ago where had the usual 4 square for 160 
and also an inverted Vee at around 300 feet.  He told me that the inverted Vee 
seldom played as good as or better than the 4 square  The 4 square was usually 
much better.


Bill K4XS/KH7XS



-Original Message-
From: Greg - ZL3IX 
To: topband 
Sent: Fri, Mar 30, 2018 7:34 pm
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
certainly draw inferences from that!

In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
to benefit.

Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.

73, Greg, ZL3IX
> It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
> so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
> would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.
>
>

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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[daraymond]

Hello George. . .

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  I don't believe most hams have any 
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for hams 
with limited facilities.  The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in 
and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner 
as traditional contacts.  To use your boat analogy below, it's like putting 
a power boat in the same race with a sailboat.  They both have their merits. 
. .but they are simply two different things.  That said, there will always 
be people seeking equal recognition without having to make the effort. . . 
that's become a given in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- 
From: GEORGE WALLNER

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraym...@iowatelecom.net ; k...@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be a
surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way outperform
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.

C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
  wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large 
antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will 
quickly migrate to this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it 
requires comparatively little skill on the part of the operators.   For me 
personally, it is disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it 
will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very 
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and 
me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have 
been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in 
there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN 
on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he 
did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST 
noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's 
on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was 
going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials 
following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of 
FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.


Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:


1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required 
QSO elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX 
(in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
possible one day - which would 

Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[Greg - ZL3IX]

Hi Carl,

OH8X was active for some months when I was making Qs with Eu, in 
particular OH. I never heard them at all, although I have no idea of 
exactly when they were QRV. My guess is that if their monster antenna 
had produced results, they would have been a lot more active. We can 
certainly draw inferences from that!


In contrast, I have made many Qs with other guys running good stations 
with vertical Tx, such as OH2MA and OH3XR. In fact if there is any 
propagation at all between ZL and Eu, OH is often one of the first areas 
to benefit.


Conclusion - OH-ZL is not a particularly difficult path, and if the OH8X 
antenna had been effective, I would have easily heard them.


73, Greg, ZL3IX

It would have been great to have had the OH8X 160m Yagi up for a long time
so RBN could have been used to compare it to nearby vertical antennas. It
would have shown how much of this theory is applicable in the real world.




_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Jamie WW3S]

actually happening as we speak ( or type)..Jupiter Research Foundation 
has an unmanned boat type drone searching the pacific for humpback whales, 
and the drone has a solar powered ham transceiver on board, passing out FT8 
contacts as it motors around the pacificlast I looked made a little over 
1100 qsos.from some pretty rare grid squares 


-Original Message- 
From: Anthony Scandurra

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 2:21 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is 
Upon us!


"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:


When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:


My thoughts on FT8:


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 
24/7

(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that 
consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like 
the

perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
count
me out of that list.


Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[Peter Voelpel]

Hi Frank,

I just don´t see a reason to make chokes self resonant.
If one really needs that a parallel resonant LC circuit can be formed with a
normal choke and a capacitor.
On my 160m dipole the choke at the feed point is wound with RG 141 on a
stack of two large ferrite toroids which gives me a Z of about 10k.
In addition the outer conductor is connected to the tower after a quarter
wave length and the coax run inside the tower and grounded to one leg.
The same tower is direct fed as an elevated GP at the 25m level against two
sloping radials with the outer connector bonded to the tower.
I never saw any common mode current when the common mode chokes XL was at
least 100 times the coax Z.

73
Peter

-Original Message-
From: donov...@starpower.net [mailto:donov...@starpower.net] 
Sent: Freitag, 30. März 2018 19:30
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M Balun

Hi Peter,

What you need in a common mode choke is adequate resistive
component to absorb common mode signals as heat.  The choke
doesn't need to be at resonance to achieve adequate choking
resistance, but it doesn't hurt either.   It takes some thought
and technical understanding to determine how much common
suppression is enough.   And common mode chokes aren't the
only way to adequately suppress common mode signals.  


A low impedance radial system provides good common mode
suppression.  Grounding the coax feed line to a center-fed dipole
1/4 wavelength or 3/4 wavelengths from the dipole feed point also
provides good common mode suppression, certainly more than
you ever need for a dipole. This assumes that the feed line runs
at approximately 90 degrees from the dipole.   Pulling the feed line
significantly away from 90 degrees significantly increases common
mode.  An  off-center-fed dipole is much worse because its very
difficult to build a choke with adequate power handling capability
and good choking performance.

You can't understand your needed common mode signal suppression
without understanding your signal environment and the directive
performance you want to achieve from your antenna.  


For example:


A multi-transmitter or SO2R station needs much more attention to
common mode suppression than a single operator low power station


A highly directive multi-element Yagi needs much more common
mode suppression than a dipole or a vertical.


Coax feed lines properly installed and bonded to a tower has less
common mode signals than a coax feed line suspended well above
the ground. 


Perhaps the worst case need for common mode suppression is
directive receiving antennas with very low signal levels such a small
terminated loop (K9AY, Flag, etc) or a small "magnetic" loop. Both
require extreme attention to common mode signal suppression,
including a strong preference for buried feed lines, control lines
and power cables.


73
Frank
W3LPL




From: "Peter Voelpel" 
To: "Jim Thomson" , topband@contesting.com
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 4:47:44 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M Balun

Why do you want it resonant?

73
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Thomson

The  160m CM choke needs to resonate lower in freq.  It requires  more cores
to shift the res freq down.   

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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Anthony Scandurra]

George,

I understand and agree with most of what you say, but the sailboat analogy
is a bad one.

I can sail a boat alone.  I can't have a QSO without someone else on the
same mode.  The vacuum FT8 creates is the problem.

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 2:26 PM, GEORGE WALLNER 
wrote:

> Dave,
> For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
> lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
> is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
> Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
> some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
> there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be
> a surprise.
> Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
> I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way
> outperform sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out
> there as before. They love sailing, not just getting there.
>
> C U on CW,
>
> George.
> AA7JV
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
>   wrote:
>
>> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
>> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
>> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
>> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
>> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
>> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
>> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
>> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
>> disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will.   73. .
>> .Dave, W0FLS
>>
>> -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
>> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
>> To: topband@contesting.com
>> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon
>> us!
>>
>> Hello Gang
>> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
>> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
>> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
>> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
>>
>> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
>> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
>> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
>> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
>> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
>> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
>>
>> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on
>> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
>>
>> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
>> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and
>> me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been
>> another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there
>> calling among the NA stations.
>>
>> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN
>> on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did
>> not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST
>> noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's
>> on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
>>
>> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was
>> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
>> following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of
>> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
>>
>> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is
>> fully conceived including:
>>
>> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required
>> QSO elements
>> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX
>> (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
>> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
>> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
>> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
>>
>> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m
>> and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
>>
>> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to
>> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone
>> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition
>> mode uses special 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[GEORGE WALLNER]

Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may 
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8 
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always 
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been 
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be a 
surprise.

Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way outperform 
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as 
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.


C U on CW,

George.
AA7JV



On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
  wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is disappointing to watch it all unfold. 
But unfold, it will.   73. . .Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.

I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. 
Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.

On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at VY2ZM. 
Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side 
prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign 
correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, 
mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the 
sun came up."

The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to 
try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its 
release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be 
used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.

Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:

1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.

So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.

Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate 
this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this 
who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special 
settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it 
just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order 
to complete qso's.

Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a couple 
of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay close enough 
attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to have a good 
shot as he went into daylight on his side.

So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Anthony Scandurra]

"Maybe someday there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX
entities."

This was actually proposed at the 2017 IDXC in Visalia by a well-known and
prolific DXpeditioner.  I was the only person in the room who stood up with
a dissenting opinion about it.  However, I did have several people come up
to me after the presentation was over to tell me they agreed with me.

Reducing the human element ruins the accomplishment, in my opinion.  I
think many others agree with that sentiment.

I am all for technological advancement, but, for instance, when SSB
supplanted AM, the human element was not reduced.

Digital mode proponents will say that there is still a human element to the
process (despite what some naysayers have proclaimed), and I agree.
However, the REDUCTION of the human element reduces the FUN part of it.
One can argue that you cannot copy RTTY without electronic means, either.
That does not fully compare with how the JT modes work. The JT modes, more
than any others, reduce the human's role in the QSO.  When was the last
time a mechanical RTTY machine responded back without it's human pushing
the green keys?

73, Tony K4QE

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Brian Pease 
wrote:

> When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available
> bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
> Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest,
> CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN signal
> report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer will be
> able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 24/7 while
> perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday there will be
> unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It is certainly
> much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted out in a few
> years.
>
>
> On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:
>
>> My thoughts on FT8:
>>
>>
>> -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The
>> comments
>> Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit)
>> could
>> see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
>> made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.
>>
>> -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
>> people right now - unattended.
>>
>> -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
>> (which means unattended) on T31.
>>
>> -  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in
>> contests
>> - FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered
>> valid
>> contest Qs - while you sleep?
>>
>> -  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
>> topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
>> perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
>> isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are
>> low.
>> Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.
>> Before
>> you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
>> lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.
>>
>> -  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve
>> what
>> we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important
>> we
>> don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror
>> folks.
>>
>> -  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
>> computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally,
>> count
>> me out of that list.
>>
>>
>> Ed  N1UR
>>
>> _
>> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>>
>>
> _
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>
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Lee. KX4TT via Topband]

No, That would not be useful, but a bunch of canned messages that resemble grid 
square numbers would be useful, especially when locations are preplanned. Look 
at all the Q Codes associated with a SOS, and you'll get some ideas. 

Ex. Exchange 

AA4FL KX4TT QTCC   (locations are preplanned so AA4FL knows where I am)(Second 
C means Critical)
KX4TT AA4FL QRV 
AA4FL F8S6 (8 fatalities, 6 serious injuries) / AA4FL S3M0 (3 serious, 10 or 
more minor)
KX4TT QTC (any more?)
AA4FL NIL
KX4TT RF8S6T (Received info, t can mean anything for transport available to 
time-wait for instructions)

2nd example
AA4FL KX4TT QTC   (locations are preplanned so AA4FL knows where I am)
KX4TT AA4FL QRV 
AA4FL S3M0 (3 serious, 10 or more minor)
KX4TT NRM (TOTAL MINOR ?)
AA4FL M27
KX4TT R T15 (Received info, T can mean - will reply in 15 or transport should 
be there in 15)

73 es GUD DX de Lee KX4TT




-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
k8...@alphacomm.net
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 13:39 
To: Guy Olinger K2AV ; Topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!

Just think about thatAfter some terrific disaster, you'll be able to tell 
the outside world your grid square & signal report. Good luck with that...

Brian  K8BHZ


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
> I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster 
> communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and 
> solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to 
> be an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform 
> seems to have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.
>
> 73, Guy
>
>


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Brian Pease]

When 90% of band activity is taking place in ~1% of the available 
bandwidth, it gets one's attention, doesn't it.
Personally, I have always considered DXpedition, and especially contest, 
CW exchanges to be a bit silly, with nearly everyone getting a 5NN 
signal report.  With today's technology I think eventually a computer 
will be able  sort out a CW pileup nearly as well as a human, and do it 
24/7 while perhaps giving more accurate signal reports.  Maybe someday 
there will be unmanned solar-powered stations on remote DX entities.  It 
is certainly much easier than self-driving cars, which should be sorted 
out in a few years.


On 3/30/2018 1:02 PM, Ed Sawyer wrote:

My thoughts on FT8:

  


-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
me out of that list.

  


Ed  N1UR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
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Re: Topband: low inv-vee

[Rob Atkinson]

1.  You never use an inverted L or other vertical for receiving,
unless maybe, you are in a QTH so remote and noise free it might work.
But in-town, forget it.

2,  From my experience, 7 or 8 out of 10 hams on 160 m., have poor
antennas, usually low horizontal wires.  Most of these fellows are
casual operators who ragchew and are okay as long as they understand
the limits of their antennas.

Rob
K5UJ
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[k8...@alphacomm.net]

Just think about thatAfter some terrific disaster, you'll be able to 
tell the outside world your grid square & signal report. Good luck with 
that...


Brian  K8BHZ


On 3/30/2018 1:12 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:


I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy





_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[donovanf]

Hi Peter, 


What you need in a common mode choke is adequate resistive 
component to absorb common mode signals as heat. The choke 
doesn't need to be at resonance to achieve adequate choking 
resistance, but it doesn't hurt either. It takes some thought 
and technical understanding to determine how much common 
suppression is enough. And c ommon mode chokes aren't the 
only way to adequately suppress common mode signals. 



A low impedance radial system provides good common mode 
suppression. Grounding the coax feed line to a center-fed dipole 
1/4 wavelength or 3/4 wavelengths from the dipole feed point also 
provides good common mode suppression, certainly more than 
you ever need for a dipole. This assumes that the feed line runs 
at approximately 90 degrees from the dipole. Pulling the feed line 
significantly away from 90 degrees significantly increases common 
mode. An off-center-fed dipole is much worse because its very 
difficult to build a choke with adequate power handling capability 
and good choking performance. 


You can't understand your needed common mode signal suppression 
without understanding your signal environment and the directive 
performance you want to achieve from your antenna. 


For example: 


A multi-transmitter or SO2R station needs much more attention to 
common mode suppression than a single operator low power station 


A highly directive multi-element Yagi needs much more common 
mode suppression than a dipole or a vertical. 


Coax feed lines properly installed and bonded to a tower has less 
common mode signals than a coax feed line suspended well above 
the ground. 


Perhaps the worst case need for common mode suppression is 
directive receiving antennas with very low signal levels such a small 
terminated loop (K9AY, Flag, etc) or a small "magnetic" loop. Both 
require extreme attention to common mode signal suppression, 
including a strong preference for buried feed lines, control lines 
and power cables. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 




- Original Message -

From: "Peter Voelpel"  
To: "Jim Thomson" , topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 4:47:44 PM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160M Balun 

Why do you want it resonant? 

73 
Peter 

-Original Message- 
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim 
Thomson 

The 160m CM choke needs to resonate lower in freq. It requires more cores 
to shift the res freq down. 

_ 
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Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Hans Hjelmström]

FULLY AGREE.  Perfect written. THANKS.

BUT it is easy to solve this.
If ARRL make a special award for no hearing QSO and make these
computer to computer connections ONLY valid for this awardanyone that
like to work dxcc this way  can do so.Years ago they claimed minimum 339 or 33 
on a 
confirmation of a QSO  now they accept things much below possibility to hear
in your rx.

Final and PSE Happy Eastern and cu this season 6 meters and next on top band CW,
SSB,RTTY.Now to the dinning table for Eastern snaps,,,.

Hans SM6CVX
> 30 mar 2018 kl. 19:02 skrev Ed Sawyer :
> 
> My thoughts on FT8:
> 
> 
> 
> -  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
> Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
> see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
> made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.
> 
> -  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
> people right now - unattended.
> 
> -  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
> (which means unattended) on T31.  
> 
> -  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
> - FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
> contest Qs - while you sleep?
> 
> -  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
> topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
> perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
> isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
> Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
> you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
> lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.
> 
> -  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
> we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
> don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.
> 
> -  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
> computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
> me out of that list.
> 
> 
> 
> Ed  N1UR
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

The awards usually come with CW, SSB and digital as categories.

What I see is FT8 displacing RTTY for awards, but not for contesting.

What FT8 will bring is the ability to use daytimes on 160 and 80 for
reliable distance communications with particular people with real
communications, like texting over the phone or email. Just exactly how far
that is on 160 at high noon yet to be determined.

I definitely do see FT8 as having an impact of some sort in disaster
communications where commercial or generator AC power is flat gone and
solar charged batteries are all there is. There would probably need to be
an asymmetrical FT8 where volume is 97% outbound. The platform seems to
have endless possibilities and I think the fellows will get there.

73, Guy

**
*Lowering SWR does *
*   not *
*   predict performance.*

*A dummy load, *
*   with its perfect SWR, *
*   is a worse antenna *
*   than a light bulb. *

*First discern and remove *
*   the loss in low band*
*   antenna systems.*
*--*

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced
> CW for my DXing.
>
> I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M
> DXCCs worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY
> for.
>
> I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big
> part of his DX diet.
>
> DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour.
> Right now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there
> are no problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the
> rate can drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may
> alleviate (through parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem
> from bringing everything to a halt.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> > On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  <
> daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
> >
> > IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas).
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. .
> .Dave, W0FLS
> >
> > -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
> > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
> > To: topband@contesting.com
> > Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
> Upon us!
> >
> > Hello Gang
> > I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but
> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right
> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible
> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
> >
> > I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real
> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so -
> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make
> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very
> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
> >
> > So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion
> on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
> >
> > On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in
> his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M
> and me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have
> been another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in
> there calling among the NA stations.
> >
> > About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but
> QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know
> he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over
> ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU
> qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
> >
> > The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was
> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials
> following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of
> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
> >
> > Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and 

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

One can do better than 7 turns inside FT240 forms if you use RG400 for the
winding and terminate the winding PL259's with UG175 adapters for the
RG400.

Choke made this way are near indestructible except ferrite cores blocking
hundreds of volts RF common mode. RG400 is rated 7 kW due to teflon jacket,
dielectric and fine silvered copper weave and flexible multistrand center
conductor. Requires connectors, but so does any commercial choke, and not
all of them use the high quality coax. Soldering RG400 is nice because you
can't melt it. The usual sealing procedure for choke to regular coax: tape
to cover shells and double female adapter, coax wrap over all that plus
half inch either end, tape over coax wrap, scotch liquid tape over tape.

If you do it this way, you can measure and test the thing on the bench
before you ever take it outside.

I've made those with T300A-2 powdered iron cores and a parallel HEC cap in
the center and resonated them at 1.9 or 2 MHz for a parallel tuned block
where levels to be blocked have heated and destroyed #31's (extreme
unfortunate situation).

73, Guy K2AV


**
*Lowering SWR does *
*   not *
*   predict performance.*

*A dummy load, *
*   with its perfect SWR, *
*   is a worse antenna *
*   than a light bulb. *

*First discern and remove *
*   the loss in low band*
*   antenna systems.*
*--*

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:09 PM, Jim Thomson  wrote:

> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:22:18 -0400
> From: "N2TK, Tony" 
> To: 
> Subject: Topband: 160M Balun
>
>  balun.
>  #31 cores with 7 turns of coax would be a better balun.
>cores
>  
> 
> ##  Although  7 turns   of  213  sized coax  through  5 x  type  31
> cores  works good
> on 160m...  aprx  5 k ohms,  the choke will resonate on 3 mhz !You
> cant get more than
> 7 turns of coax through a 2.4 inch OD  /  1.4 inch ID  core.   The  160m
> CM choke needs
> to resonate lower in freq.  It requires  more cores to shift the res freq
> down.   I dont
> know how many more,  but I suspect   7-12  cores  would do the job, and
> certainly
> be an improvement. You wont blow it up either.
>
> ##  I suspect your current  bead balun  wont provide very much Z  on
> 160m..and it
> will all be reactive.
>
> Jim   VE7RF
>
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[Jim Thomson]

##  Much higher  Zand much higher  RSand minimal Xs.
Plan B would be to use  RG-400... but more than 7 turns.

##  N3RR has his  160m  CM chokes between 16k and  22k  ohms.
If you are going to build a 160M  CM choke,  you may as well do it right
the 1st time.

Jim   VE7RF


-Original Message- 
From: Peter Voelpel

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 9:47 AM
To: 'Jim Thomson' ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: RE: Topband: 160M Balun

Why do you want it resonant?

73
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Thomson

The  160m CM choke needs to resonate lower in freq.  It requires  more cores
to shift the res freq down. 


_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Ed Sawyer]

My thoughts on FT8:

 

-  How is it actually a Q from our normal perspective?  The comments
Jeff made on the fact that 2 operators (on both sides of the circuit) could
see evidence of each other for 20 minutes before the "computers" finally
made the connection - is proof that the operator is not making the QSO.

-  There is a floating robot in the Pacific making FT8 QSOs with
people right now - unattended.

-  3Z9DX has stated that they will leave an FT8 station going 24/7
(which means unattended) on T31.  

-  Are these what we want to count as QSOs?  What about in contests
- FT8 is already infiltrating VHF contests.  Should they be considered valid
contest Qs - while you sleep?

-  I agree with Jeff and others that for people that that consider
topband a PTA to operate and/or are not CW operators - 160M looks like the
perfect place to drop a robot and go concentrate on something else.  But
isn't this a slippery slope?  What about 10M/12M since the sunspots are low.
Or 80M because the static crashes in the tropics are terrible - etc.  Before
you know it the whole DXpedition is an FT8 robot while the "crew" is
lounging about the pool with the XYL/YLs.

-  If we continue to facilitate such nonsense, they we deserve what
we get in my opinion.  If we decide that the band counter is so important we
don't care how we have to get it, then its time to look in the mirror folks.

-  On the other hand, maybe some people are happier with the
computer doing the heavy lifting of digging out the QSO.  Personally, count
me out of that list.

 

Ed  N1UR

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[Peter Voelpel]

Why do you want it resonant?

73
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Thomson

The  160m CM choke needs to resonate lower in freq.  It requires  more cores
to shift the res freq down.   

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Hans Hjelmström]

SORRY to say. Of course everyone do what they like to do,
BUT  FT8 and ,,,no hearing QSO:s,,, will destroy our hobby.
Same for me last 6 meter season . Had a 1 hour opening on 6 meter from Florida, 
to Minnesota and California   on CWBUT made 7 QSO during 1 hour of open 
band. Most people were on FT8  making ,contacts ?  computer to computer , 
and very very
few on SSB or CW.   FT8 should be ok IF signal were minimum  minus 1 db. 
Everything below that,you can not hear…..

Sorry. Lets TRY to activate 6 meter coming season on SSB and CW as much
as we enjoy,and may be ,,, we see a change back to normal.

Kind regards

Hans SM6CVX
> 30 mar 2018 kl. 18:12 skrev Jim N7US :
> 
> I also observed the same on 6M last summer when the switch was flipped and
> FT8 replaced CW and SSB on 6M.  I've enjoyed 6M for only a few years, but I
> lost all interest, despite my 6L SteppIR and KPA500, when that happened.  
> 
> I've had a handful of FT8 QSOs early on, but I got no satisfaction using it.
> It wasn't FUN for me.
> 
> I have simple, wire antennas for 80 and 160 but I've enjoyed those bands for
> many years.  I was elated to work 3B9C on 160 from AZ in 2004 using a half
> sloper (yes, at his SR).
> 
> I also enjoy RTTY and am almost on that Honor Roll, though the RTTY DXCC was
> changed to the Digital DXCC a few years ago.  All of my contacts are on
> RTTY, with none on PSK or other digital modes, so that has lost some of its
> appeal.
> 
> I sold my 87A but still have my KPA500 while I wait for my KPA1500.  I am
> questioning whether I should buy it given the rush to FT8.
> 
> Maybe I'm a "grumpy old man" but I don't think I'll mind eventually
> downsizing with a simpler station because the hobby will have changed.  I'd
> even be OK with RHR from "the home" but I wouldn't use it for competition.
> 
> Contesting, including CWops' CWTs, is still fun, but DXing won't be the
> same.
> 
> 73, Jim N7US
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> 
> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
> .Dave, W0FLS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[donovanf]

Hi Jim, 


Have you considered using RG-303 or RG-400 ? They're commonly 
available on the internet and at hamfests at discount prices. Its similar 
in diameter to RG-58 but rated well over 1500 watts on 160 meters. 


However... 


You don't need a high performance choke on your vertical unless you 
have elevated radials or a sparse radial system with few radials or 
short radials. A good low impedance radial system will provide 
excellent common mode suppression. 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 
- Original Message -

From: "Tony N2TK"  
To: topband@contesting.com 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 11:22:18 AM 
Subject: Topband: 160M Balun 

I shunt feed my tower for Topband. Presently using a Comtek 100 bead balun. 
After reading K9YC's article on baluns it would seem that a stack of five 
#31 cores with 7 turns of coax would be a better balun. 
Would I notice an improvement in any way by switching baluns? 
If the answer is I would notice an improvement what about using sixteen 
turns #12 THHN wire on #31 core as shown in K9YC's article? How many cores 
would I need for 1500W? 
Tnx for any feedback 
N2TK, Tony 

_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Jim N7US]

I also observed the same on 6M last summer when the switch was flipped and
FT8 replaced CW and SSB on 6M.  I've enjoyed 6M for only a few years, but I
lost all interest, despite my 6L SteppIR and KPA500, when that happened.  

I've had a handful of FT8 QSOs early on, but I got no satisfaction using it.
It wasn't FUN for me.

I have simple, wire antennas for 80 and 160 but I've enjoyed those bands for
many years.  I was elated to work 3B9C on 160 from AZ in 2004 using a half
sloper (yes, at his SR).

I also enjoy RTTY and am almost on that Honor Roll, though the RTTY DXCC was
changed to the Digital DXCC a few years ago.  All of my contacts are on
RTTY, with none on PSK or other digital modes, so that has lost some of its
appeal.

I sold my 87A but still have my KPA500 while I wait for my KPA1500.  I am
questioning whether I should buy it given the rush to FT8.

Maybe I'm a "grumpy old man" but I don't think I'll mind eventually
downsizing with a simpler station because the hobby will have changed.  I'd
even be OK with RHR from "the home" but I wouldn't use it for competition.

Contesting, including CWops' CWTs, is still fun, but DXing won't be the
same.

73, Jim N7US

-Original Message-


IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system,
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays,
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
.Dave, W0FLS






_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: 160M Balun

[Jim Thomson]

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 07:22:18 -0400
From: "N2TK, Tony" 
To: 
Subject: Topband: 160M Balun

http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160M Balun

[Grant Saviers]

I measured the Comtek bead balun on 160m and found there is low choking 
resistance.


I use the K9YC design with good results, whether it will make any 
difference in your antenna system is something you will need to try.  
With more than 5x the choking resistance with the K9YC 7T on 5 #31core 
you may see a reduction in noise and feedline involvement. I use RG400 
or RG142 TFE coax which can easily handle QRO on 160m and fits in a 4 x 
4 x 4 PVC junction box.  I haven't made any of the bifilar THHN designs.


Grant KZ1W

On 3/30/2018 4:22 AM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

I shunt feed my tower for Topband. Presently using a Comtek 100 bead balun.
After reading K9YC's article on baluns it would seem that a stack of five
#31 cores with 7 turns of coax would be a better balun.
Would I notice an improvement in any way by switching baluns?
If the answer is I would notice an improvement what about using sixteen
turns #12 THHN wire on  #31 core as shown in K9YC's article? How many cores
would I need for 1500W?
Tnx for any feedback
N2TK, Tony

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband



_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Tim Shoppa]

I’ve been having a lot of fun with FT8 but it certainly has not replaced CW for 
my DXing.

I do 80M-specific DX Marathon each year. So far this year I have 107 80M DXCCs 
worked - 104 on CW and 3 on SSB. And none that I needed FT8 or RTTY for.

I will agree, if a guy doesn’t do CW, FT8 is probably going to be a big part of 
his DX diet.

DXpedition rates are fun to listen to when they are doing 200+ an hour. Right 
now FT8 (non-DXpedition mode) tops out at maybe 25 an hour when there are no 
problems. The instant you have any sort of sequencing problem, the rate can 
drop to 2 an hour. The experimental FT8 DXpedition mode may alleviate (through 
parallel ongoing Qs) morning be guys sequencing problem from bringing 
everything to a halt.

Tim N3QE

> On Mar 30, 2018, at 11:10 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
> meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, 
> and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to 
> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
> little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
> disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
> .Dave, W0FLS
> 
> -Original Message- From: k1zm--- via Topband
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!
> 
> Hello Gang
> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
> may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
> 
> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so 
> well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a 
> few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
> appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!
> 
> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
> 
> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me 
> here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
> another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there 
> calling among the NA stations.
> 
> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
> his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
> copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
> heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - 
> so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
> 
> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going 
> to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following 
> its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also 
> be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
> 
> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
> conceived including:
> 
> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
> elements
> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
> this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any 
> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
> 
> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
> managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
> 
> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to 
> operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone 
> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode 
> uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly 
> right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to 
> function in order to complete qso's.
> 
> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a 
> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay 
> 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[daraymond]

IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). 
Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually 
meaningless.  The guy with a  backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, 
and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what 
has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, 
and receive antennas.  As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to 
this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively 
little skill on the part of the operators.   For me personally, it is 
disappointing to watch it all unfold.  But unfold, it will.   73. . 
.Dave, W0FLS


-Original Message- 
From: k1zm--- via Topband

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon 
us!


Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I 
may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right 
before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible 
implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.


I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!


So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.


On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and 
me here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there 
calling among the NA stations.


About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on 
Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."


The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going 
to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following 
its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will 
also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.


Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:


1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be 
possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any 
dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.


So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.


Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to 
operate this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone 
reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode 
uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly 
right - or it just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to 
function in order to complete qso's.


Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a 
couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay 
close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game 
to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.


So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to 
Topband?


The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer 
on 6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during 
the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be 
a great E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW 
in late June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the 
production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its 
potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was 
immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.



Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Don Greenbaum]

Clive:

We do have a 40 mtr antenna at the digital site.   I will keep that in 
mind.   Prop charts show a 1 hour window to OH/GM/ etc.


EU is a target area of our operation, hence the 24 hour 20 mtr manning of 
stations.


73
Don

At 09:46 AM 3/30/2018, Clive GM3POI wrote:

Don, seeing your trip is midsummer, you should strongly consider using FT8
for EU on 40m as to Western EU there is NO common darkness.
Otherwise the lowest band Western EU will be able to work KH1 is 30m.  73
Clive GM3POI

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don
Greenbaum
Sent: 30 March 2018 13:27
To: k...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!

Jeff, and others:

 From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in controlled
test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.

As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next test
on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in
March that are addressed in the next test.

The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT developers
to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and the current
plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our intention
to use cw as the primary mode on 160.

As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.

The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's
up to the dx isn't it?

Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.

Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.

And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade
from lemons.

Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
>Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying
>attention lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what
>has been taking place right before our eyes the past two nights on
>1.836kHz - and its possible implications going forward for future
>Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages
>are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as
>7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and
>has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos &
>thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA
>stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much
>appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what I
>am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert
>- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its
>possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On
>or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his
>grayline period
>- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at
>VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been
>another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in
>there calling among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered
>me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a
>legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my
>callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I
>heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on
>Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up." Â  The next
>night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced that he was going to
>try 1836 using the new 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Clive GM3POI]

Don, seeing your trip is midsummer, you should strongly consider using FT8
for EU on 40m as to Western EU there is NO common darkness.
Otherwise the lowest band Western EU will be able to work KH1 is 30m.  73
Clive GM3POI 

-Original Message-
From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Don
Greenbaum
Sent: 30 March 2018 13:27
To: k...@aol.com; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!

Jeff, and others:

 From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in controlled
test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.

As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next test
on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good 
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in 
March that are addressed in the next test.

The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT developers
to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and the current
plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a 
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to 
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a 
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It 
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our intention
to use cw as the primary mode on 160.

As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS 
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all 
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low 
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.

The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of 
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never 
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first 
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs 
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change 
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's 
up to the dx isn't it?

Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the 
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.

Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.

And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not 
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade
from lemons.

Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
>Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying 
>attention lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what 
>has been taking place right before our eyes the past two nights on 
>1.836kHz - and its possible implications going forward for future 
>Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages 
>are well aware of the current dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 
>7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working the lowbands and 
>has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved kudos & 
>thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA 
>stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much 
>appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what I 
>am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert
>- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
>possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On 
>or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
>grayline period
>- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at 
>VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
>another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in 
>there calling among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered 
>me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a 
>legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not copy my 
>callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
>heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on 
>Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up." Â  The next 
>night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced that he was going to 
>try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials 
>following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version 
>of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 
>Dx'pedition. Â  Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique 

Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[Don Greenbaum]

Jeff, and others:

From K1JT on the WSJT web pages and instructions:

Please note: DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for production use. Until 
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released, this mode should be used only in 
controlled test situations.  Please remember to send us your test results.


As one of the beta testers and one of the two stations running the next 
test on 7 April (W1/KH7Z) the problem with RR73 being sent before a good 
QSO is logged has been fixed.   There are other errors we ascertained in 
March that are addressed in the next test.


The KH1 team has been working for close to 6 months with the WSJT 
developers to make a more efficient DXpedition version of the software and 
the current plans for our Baker Island DXpedition is to use FT8 as a 
replacement for RTTY on 17 20 and 30 mtrs.   We will also operate RTTY to 
give those who need a digital QSO but haven't migrated to FT8 yet a 
shot.   We have a dedicated digital station with its own antennas.   It 
should be noted, there is no 160 mtr antenna at this digital station, the 
160 meter antenna developed by AA7JV is at the cw tent.  It is our 
intention to use cw as the primary mode on 160.


As for 6 meters, your observations are correct.   On July 6, I worked SO1WS 
on cw followed by 9K2GS in JT65.   Then FT8's new version came out and all 
my e-skip dx contacts were on FT8.   The bands were empty at the low 
end.   Even JT65 seemed to disappear overnight.


The past week while 160 appeared empty the FT8 frequency was full of 
stations making QSOs.   I worked a good number of Europeans on FT8 never 
using more than 100 watts.   Just for fun I worked 5B4AMX calling first 
with 5 watts and finally snagging him with 20 watts.   A QSO on 80 mtrs 
with A71AM on FT8 was accomplished on one call with 100 watts.  Yes, change 
is in the air, and I hope CW remains the primary mode for DX.   BUT, it's 
up to the dx isn't it?


Spark was replaced by CW.   AM by SSB.   Not without debate.

FT8 is here to stay for weak signal work.   I'm surprised to see all the 
USA/USA QSOs on 160 but activity on 160 is a good thing period in my view.


Tune into 14105 on 7 June at 14:00 UTC and see what he hope is the final 
test of the DXpedition WSJT software.  I'll be running W1/KH7Z.


And we hope to work as many of you from KH1 on 160 cw.   While June is not 
optimal, it's the timeframe chosen by FWS and we expect to make lemonade 
from lemons.


Don
N1DG
www.baker2018.net










At 07:50 AM 3/30/2018, you wrote:
Hello Gang  I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention 
lately, but I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking 
place right before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its 
possible implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read 
on. Â  I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current 
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real 
trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - 
so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Â Norbert has managed to make 
quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very 
much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you!    So what 
I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on Norbert 
- it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its possible 
implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. Â  On or about 27 
March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his grayline period 
- and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me here at 
VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been another 
and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling 
among the NA stations. Â  About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went 
QRZ a few times but QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard 
him fine but I know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he 
even said so over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but 
logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun 
came up." Â  The next night Norbert came on ON4KST Â chat and announced 
that he was going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in 
beta trials following its release by K1JT.  I am told that the 
dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the 
upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition. Â  Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise 
when and if it ever is fully conceived including: Â  1) A shortened qso 
sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO elements 2) The 
promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in this 
example the FOX was 7Q7EI) 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 
qso's per hour may be possible one day - which would improve the overall 
qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY. Â  So on 
night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition 

Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon us!

[k1zm--- via Topband]

Hello Gang 
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but I may 
be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right before our 
eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible implications going 
forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on.
 
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current dx'pedition 
to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI.  Norbert DJ7JC has been a real trooper working 
the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - so well deserved 
kudos & thanks to Norbert.  Norbert has managed to make quite a few NA stations 
happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - 
well done Norbert - thank you! 
 
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on 
Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its 
possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
 
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his 
grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and me 
here at VY2ZM.  Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been 
another and a few more as well.  I also heard some EU stations in there calling 
among the NA stations.
 
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN on 
his side prevented a legitimate qso.  I heard him fine but I know he did not 
copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST noting "I 
heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's on Topband - 
so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up."
 
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST  chat and announced that he was going to 
try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials following its 
release by K1JT.  I am told that the dx'pedition version of FT8 will also be 
used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition.
 
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is fully 
conceived including:
 
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required QSO 
elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX (in 
this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be possible 
one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any dx'pedition - IF 
this ever becomes REALITY.
 
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m and I 
managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
 
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to operate 
this new flavor of FT8.  It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone reading this 
who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition mode uses special 
settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things exactly right - or it 
just does not function as one might expect traditional FT8 to function in order 
to complete qso's.
 
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a couple 
of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay close enough 
attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game to have a good 
shot as he went into daylight on his side.
 
So what is going on here exactly?  And why did I choose to make this post to 
Topband?
 
The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past summer on 
6M during the Sporadic E season.  I happen to like to work 6M E during the 
summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped would be a great 
E season on 6M CW into Europe.  I worked a couple of stations on CW in late 
June but during the first or second week of July, K1JT released the production 
version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone realized its potential 
(particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was immediately 
called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.


Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW DX 
station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after that - 
everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so well on 6M - 
even on E skip paths.  And since I did not have FT8 capability - I was TOTALLY 
SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER!


So how does this apply to Topband?  Pls read on.


Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert was 
back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z - again on 
FT8 - in dx'pedition mode.  By now, most of us had downloaded the dx'pedition 
mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do the parameter 
settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued.


I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few others.


Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT still 
has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software - because 
the promise of 300 qso's per 

Topband: 160M Balun

[N2TK, Tony]

I shunt feed my tower for Topband. Presently using a Comtek 100 bead balun.
After reading K9YC's article on baluns it would seem that a stack of five
#31 cores with 7 turns of coax would be a better balun.
Would I notice an improvement in any way by switching baluns? 
If the answer is I would notice an improvement what about using sixteen
turns #12 THHN wire on  #31 core as shown in K9YC's article? How many cores
would I need for 1500W?
Tnx for any feedback
N2TK, Tony 

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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles

[donovanf]

Hi Luke, 


What I should have said is that propagation towards much lower latitudes 
doesn't suffer from the polarization related issues that high latitude 
paths suffer from. 


My thinking suffers from northern hemisphere biases! 


73 
Frank 
W3LPL 

- Original Message -

From: "VK3HJ"  
To: "topBand List"  
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:04:13 AM 
Subject: Re: Topband: 160m polarization and elevation angles 



-Original Message- 
From: donov...@starpower.net 

"160 meter long distance propagation is much more efficient to the south " 


Do you mean "between higher latitudes and lower latitudes"? 

To my south there are only penguins, and Tasmanians. 

Luke VK3HJ 
_ 
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 

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