Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-10-27 Thread Tim Wilson-Brown - teor
> On 28 Oct 2015, at 14:31, Virgil Griffith wrote: > > Instead of WOT, it seems more desirable, and better fit diversity, to have > both your best friends and worst enemies on the same circuit. Ergo, > minimizing chance of collaboration. Like Tails' friends, foes, and neutral HTP pools… "any

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-10-27 Thread Virgil Griffith
Instead of WOT, it seems more desirable, and better fit diversity, to have both your best friends and worst enemies on the same circuit. Ergo, minimizing chance of collaboration. -V On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 at 01:30 grarpamp wrote: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:44 AM, tor-dev had: > > I agree with Roge

[tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-10-25 Thread grarpamp
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:44 AM, tor-dev had: > I agree with Roger that ideally all relays can be exits (and since > we're being ideal, we'll assume that 'exit' means to every port). And > the network location distribution of relays by bandwidth is > proportional to both the client destination sele

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-24 Thread Tim Wilson-Brown - teor
> On 24 Sep 2015, at 23:10, Thomas White wrote: > > Signed PGP part > Could we perhaps expand the contact information field in some way? One > thing I was pondering a while ago was a social contact, not just an > email address. I raised a very brief point about this with Virgil in > Paris last y

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-24 Thread Thomas White
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Could we perhaps expand the contact information field in some way? One thing I was pondering a while ago was a social contact, not just an email address. I raised a very brief point about this with Virgil in Paris last year, but I think I made it very

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Griffin
Virgil Griffith wrote: > Tor "exploits the military" into lending cover to activist groups, > which they would presumably support. > This may be too naive a view of the situation. Exploit is definitely the wrong word here. Different people who disagree about {policy|topic|whatever} can all see

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Virgil Griffith
Apologies for quick post. If we want to a socially connected link, seems we can use the same infrastructure for doing keysignings parties but we just use relay public keys. That seems a nice distributed way of doing this. On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 at 13:42 Virgil Griffith wrote: > Can we not use the a

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Virgil Griffith
Can we not use the argument "anonymity requires diverse company" on both sides? For whole rational actors it seems like this should work. Tor "exploits the military" into lending cover to activist groups, which they would presumably support. This may be too naive a view of the situation. Re: soci

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Roger Dingledine
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:18:58AM +, Virgil Griffith wrote: > Exit nodes seem a nice place to start concretizing what's meant when we say > we want relay diversity. Comments immensely appreciated because as-is I > don't know the answers to these questions. Hi Virgil, I've been pondering the

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Evan d'Entremont
> In application this would be a distribution that although unlikely to be optimal against any specific adversary, it's has robust hardness across a wide variety of adversaries. So, the F-35? Perhaps what needs considered is wether that is even possible; and against which adversaries is TOR desig

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Paul Syverson
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 11:34:54AM +, Virgil Griffith wrote: > > because "the right distribution" is a function of which adversary you're > > considering, and once you consider k adversaries at once, no single > > distribution will be optimal for all of them.) > I agree with Roger that ideall

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-23 Thread Virgil Griffith
> because "the right distribution" is a function of which adversary you're > considering, and once you consider k adversaries at once, no single > distribution will be optimal for all of them.) Granted. But since we're speaking idealizations, I say take that the expected-value over the distributi

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-22 Thread Roger Dingledine
On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 06:26:47AM +, Yawning Angel wrote: > On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 06:18:58 + > Virgil Griffith wrote: > > * Would the number of exit nodes constitute exactly 1/3 of all Tor > > nodes? Would the total exit node bandwidth constitute 1/3 of all Tor > > bandwidth? > > No. There

Re: [tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-22 Thread Yawning Angel
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 06:18:58 + Virgil Griffith wrote: > * Would the number of exit nodes constitute exactly 1/3 of all Tor > nodes? Would the total exit node bandwidth constitute 1/3 of all Tor > bandwidth? No. There needs to be more interior bandwidth than externally facing bandwidth since n

[tor-dev] Desired exit node diversity

2015-09-22 Thread Virgil Griffith
Let's try a simple special case. In an idealized Tor network, what would the distribution of exit nodes look like? * Would each exit node have the same bandwidth? Or would there instead be only one exit node per AS? * Would the number of exit nodes constitute exactly 1/3 of all Tor nodes? Would t