No offense to the weirdos, though. You guys are my people :).
Really? You don't come across as very friendly to the 'weirdos'.
Oh, but he is! You see, I'm an astrophysicist with minor in geology
and ancient history. I lose three jobs and eventually were committed to
green sanitarium
.onion is another thing that is tragically failing to reach its
potential because no one tries to make it useful for normal stuff. I
rather intensely dislike the way it is being used now, but I also know
that good use cases exist, and amazing ones are possible.
Ditto. Onionland is mostly
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 4:49 AM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
Well, you're assuming that an exit node (with some given exit policy)
sees a fair sampling of all Tor exit traffic. This is not the case. Look
into how Tor assigns exit nodes.
This is indeed the case — clients choose exit nodes
expand the network instead of just using it as a proxy. Make everyone
a relay (even if low-bandwidth relays are not useful, and even if
there are theoretical issues — solve the issues instead) and have a
hidden service address by default. Work with file sharing software
developers to have a
Thus spake grarpamp (grarp...@gmail.com):
[Hidden service personal communication can be] an incredibly awesome
and powerful tool. I worry deeply we'll lose it before it has a
chance to develop away from just being used for thoughtcrime.
My main concern is the node authorities. It's
Still, it is a little surprising they can't trace bitcoin yet, though.
Maybe they can.
If you're using an anonet, a new address for every transaction, a
good mix that at least guarantees lack of per session taint, and
are willing to accept a random variance in your input and output BTC
amount
I ask again, because I want the answer to improve us:
How would you have us promote Tor?
Setting aside for the moment those possibly arguing illegal cases...
I don't think you can do much different, or better.
Even if you repeat the historical wisdom that the current
presumed good parts of the
Tor. If Tor shuts down today, who loses and who wins?
Then the criminals remix tor and just keep going?
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:39:27 +, grarpamp wrote:
...
There's nothing stopping anyone from forking Tor, throwing it up on
github and moving to an unfunded, unspoken development model to
do all these things.
The valuable part of tor is not the code base but the
installed base of relays; you
Thus spake grarpamp (grarp...@gmail.com):
Still, it is a little surprising they can't trace bitcoin yet, though.
Maybe they can.
If you're using an anonet, a new address for every transaction, a
good mix that at least guarantees lack of per session taint, and
are willing to accept a
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012, at 00:14, Mike Perry wrote:
.onion is another thing that is tragically failing to reach its
potential because no one tries to make it useful for normal stuff. I
rather intensely dislike the way it is being used now, but I also know
that good use cases exist, and amazing
Thus spake antispa...@sent.at (antispa...@sent.at):
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012, at 00:14, Mike Perry wrote:
.onion is another thing that is tragically failing to reach its
potential because no one tries to make it useful for normal stuff. I
rather intensely dislike the way it is being used now,
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 10:16 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
Sure, I rely on my intuition. It is based on interacting with a
diverse userbase of Tor users. Yours is based on disliking my
conclusions and nothing else — you never brought up actual
references.
The burden of proof is on you, since
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 09:07:49 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
I doubt that the Tor Project will ever acknowledge such support. Tor
developers (or at least policy people) like to pretend that Tor is
used for purposes that they consider morally right, and ignore the
uses that are morally wrong [1].
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 00:47:26 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Andrew Lewman and...@torproject.is
wrote:
How would you have us promote Tor?
The “Tor users” page isn't presented as a promotional page, it is
presented as a factual one. I also remember discussion on
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Mike Perry mikepe...@torproject.org wrote:
But from the paper, it sounds like the BTC flow to Silk Road itself is
quite large and might be measurable or at least can be approximated from
the website itself...
[snip]
Unless I understood the paper, their
Compressed sensing techniques?
We should keep in mind the barrier for introducing scientific evidence
in US courts is pretty vast. They still use MD5 hashes on forensic
images, because case law specifically says MD5 is acceptable.
Some crazy new correlation attack might be possible... but using
On Thursday, August 9. 2012, 23:23:52 adrelanos wrote:
And/or a port or destination IP wise statistic.
Just checked exit port stats of one of my relays. 97 % are HTTPS/HTTP.
Regards
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On Thursday, August 9. 2012, 23:23:52 adrelanos wrote:
And/or a port or destination IP wise statistic.
Just checked exit port stats of one of my relays. 97 % are HTTPS/HTTP.
Interesting. Thanks!
Mind telling what kind of exit policy you are using? I mean, on a
restrictive exit
On Thu, Aug 09, 2012 at 11:23:52PM +, adrelanos wrote:
I'd be also interested in a top50, 100, 1000, x of regular Tor exit
traffic.
The following two papers took a look at that, among other things:
http://freehaven.net/anonbib/#mccoy-pet2008
http://freehaven.net/anonbib/#huber2010tor
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 00:47:26 +0300
Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su wrote:
The “Tor users” page isn't presented as a promotional page, it is
presented as a factual one. I also remember discussion on this list
where I expressed doubt about some aspects listed there (military
uses), and the overall
Original Message
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:00:39 +0300
From: Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su
Yes, if gathering .onion access statistics were possible, I would load
each .onion address in a top-50 list and see what it contains, or
search for the address if access requires
Thus spake Maxim Kammerer (m...@dee.su):
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Andrew Lewman and...@torproject.is wrote:
How would you have us promote Tor?
The “Tor users” page isn't presented as a promotional page, it is
presented as a factual one. I also remember discussion on this list
where
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM, With Weather Eye Open
w...@safe-mail.net wrote:
It is, in fact, difficult to do just by the nature of how Tor functions.
Even if you were logging everything that came out of an exit node that you
control, you wouldn't be able to get good stats from that.
At 10:26 AM 8/10/2012 -0400, you wrote:
Original Message
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:00:39 +0300
From: Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su
Yes, if gathering .onion access statistics were possible, I would load
each .onion address in a top-50 list and see what it contains, or
search
At 12:01 PM 8/10/2012 -0700, you wrote:
Tor is a relatively new and underdeveloped technology, used exclusively
by early adopters, technophiles, weirdos, and people who really really
need it. We don't advertise. We're not in stores. This is because we're
pretty much still in the prototype stage.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Mike Perry mikepe...@torproject.org wrote:
For example, in terms of number of users, I'd wager a top current
demographic is Paranoid Schizophrenic. If it's not #1, it's gotta be
top 5. The more general category Antisocial tendencies is probably
another top 5.
Original Message
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 22:21:18 +0300
From: Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su
That's not true, but it shows that you lack the probabilistic
background required to reason about such things.
No. It shows that I'm simply not willing to accept an incredibly limited
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:20 PM, With Weather Eye Open
w...@safe-mail.net wrote:
No. It shows that I'm simply not willing to accept an incredibly limited
environment to speak for a network as a whole.
Only because you don't understand how Tor works. The less you
understand, the more data you
Thus spake Juan Garofalo (juan@gmail.com):
At 12:01 PM 8/10/2012 -0700, you wrote:
The early Internet (even as late as the mid-90s) was also dominated by
these same classes of people. Eventually it became usable by the
normals and the demographics shifted quite dramatically.
We all
Thus spake Maximum Camera (m...@dee.su):
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Mike Perry mikepe...@torproject.org wrote:
The Tor users page is in my mind a reflection of what our demographics
will look like as we improve our technology enough to be useful for
everyone who wants Internet
On Fri, 2012-08-10 at 22:21 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM, With Weather Eye Open
w...@safe-mail.net wrote:
It is, in fact, difficult to do just by the nature of how Tor
functions. Even if you were logging everything that came out of an
exit node that you
On Fri, 2012-08-10 at 02:00 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
How would you do that without facing the same problem as someone
wiretapping their own exit node? Do you have a CP classifier? Are you
going to load each .onion and
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
The obvious problem with this (((this, right here, is the productive
contribution to discussion this email has: it points out the problem
with your proposed methodologies))) is that it presumes that these top
50 .onion domains
I think (but could be wrong) that you can look at a bitcoin's history
and see who's given to whom and use that data to trace who the person
is, if they weren't careful. (Eg: if they bought from a bitcoin
exchange in the US which could have it's logs subpoenaed)
Anyways, those drugs have to get
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:03:59PM +, adrelanos wrote:
A new law proposing to make Tor and similar software illegal in US would
be a damn hard hit against Tor. And the other remaining free countries
can establish similar laws. No more free countries = no more Tor.
No more legal Tor, you
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
What did that commenter do? They don't say.
Further, get an idea isn't statistics.
Where did I talk about exit node statistics? I mentioned the
possibility of gathering .onion access statistics.
No, but I'd rather say nothing
On Thu, 09 Aug 2012 00:47:26 +, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
...
are stupid? As I said, it detracts from the project's credibility.
Anyone who installs Tor (or I2P, for that matter) and explores the
hidden services,
Erm, how *do* you 'explore' hidden services? After all, they are
not indexed by
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Andreas Krey a.k...@gmx.de wrote:
Erm, how *do* you 'explore' hidden services?
The Hidden Wiki [1] is (or are, there have been several alternates) a
good start. It used to be down quite often after some kids tried to
play in vigilantism on Tor network, but seems
Sorry for the rant.
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012, at 23:47, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
Anyone who installs Tor (or I2P, for that matter) and explores the
hidden services, immediately sees the overwhelmingly illegal (mostly,
since it depends on jurisdiction) content. Anyone who runs an exit
node immediately
Eugen Leitl:
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:03:59PM +, adrelanos wrote:
A new law proposing to make Tor and similar software illegal in US would
be a damn hard hit against Tor. And the other remaining free countries
can establish similar laws. No more free countries = no more Tor.
No more
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 09:54 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
What did that commenter do? They don't say.
Further, get an idea isn't statistics.
Where did I talk about exit node statistics? I mentioned the
possibility of
Ted Smith:
So far you didn't say anything useful or non-obvious, so why did you
post? You didn't like someone's written experience, so he is
automatically a troll or a false flag — fine, bring your own
references.
I don't have to bring my own references to point out that the only
*actually
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 07:23:46 -0400
grarpamp grarp...@gmail.com wrote:
Tor cannot accept known 'illegal' money, therefore acknowledgement
is moot. About the best Tor could do is be able to accept anonymous
donations in the first place. Then publish a bitcoin address for
donations from anyone.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
How would you do that without facing the same problem as someone
wiretapping their own exit node? Do you have a CP classifier? Are you
going to load each .onion and manually verify if it contains CP? How are
you going to
Maxim Kammerer:
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
How would you do that without facing the same problem as someone
wiretapping their own exit node? Do you have a CP classifier? Are you
going to load each .onion and manually verify if it contains CP? How are
you
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:23 AM, adrelanos adrela...@riseup.net wrote:
That wouldn't prove what Tor is used for most.
.onion is only a part of Tor. 1% or 99%? Who can know that?
Now *that* can actually be measured at RV points, and I think should
be a part of Tor metrics. I suspect that the
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:27 AM, morristan morris...@tormail.org wrote:
Perhaps the Silk Road people should donate to Tor. Perhaps they should fund
hidden service improvements in Tor. Perhaps both.
I doubt that the Tor Project will ever acknowledge such support. Tor
developers (or at least
At 09:07 AM 8/8/2012 +0300, you wrote:
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:27 AM, morristan morris...@tormail.org wrote:
Perhaps the Silk Road people should donate to Tor. Perhaps they should fund
hidden service improvements in Tor. Perhaps both.
I doubt that the Tor Project will ever acknowledge such
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Juan Garofalo juan@gmail.com wrote:
used for purposes that they consider morally right, and ignore the
uses that are morally wrong [1].
Are you saying that selling chemical products is morally wrong?
No, it's a contraction to avoid saying the same thing
to do so.
2. 150,000 or so people use Tor for hidden services, or for silk road
alone (a hidden service).
3. Tor is not profiting from hidden services.
This is a sick idea. Or is it a joke?
4. Tor and hidden services are good enough for an ecommerce platform
4. Tor and hidden services are good enough for an ecommerce platform.
Be careful the words... this is like saying the US Gov is doing great
at preventing 'terrorist' attacks simply because there haven't been any.
And although I might trust Tor, it's not wise to trust a GPA such
as the NSA, nor
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 09:07:49 +0300
Maxim Kammerer m...@dee.su wrote:
I doubt that the Tor Project will ever acknowledge such support. Tor
developers (or at least policy people) like to pretend that Tor is
used for purposes that they consider morally right, and ignore the
uses that are morally
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Andrew Lewman and...@torproject.is wrote:
How would you have us promote Tor?
The “Tor users” page isn't presented as a promotional page, it is
presented as a factual one. I also remember discussion on this list
where I expressed doubt about some aspects listed
[1]
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/vdhs8/hi_iama_we_are_core_members_of_the_tor_project/c53jzqv
I ran an end node for a month or so. I sniffed and logged the traffic
for a while, just out of curiosity. I don't know if it was sheer bad
luck or what, but after a week a significant chunk
Maxim Kammerer:
If Tor shuts down today, who loses and who wins?
Why would it be shut down? Why would you structure an anti-censorship
project in such a way that it depends on goodwill of authorities?
A project providing freedom, i.e. anonymity and circumvention for
unfree countries depends
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:58 AM, adrelanos adrela...@riseup.net wrote:
Is this actually true? I've seen in a discussion that there is 00, yes
0.0 cp on clearnet, because there are no countries which tolerate it and
therefore all server admins immediately delete it.
That's most certainly not
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 02:25 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
Also, the “immediate deletion” part is often not achievable, even if
server admins actively try to remove such content — CP videos (for
whatever definition of CP) in various social networks are a known
problem, especially when they are
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
Are we to believe that the Reddit commenter you're referencing wrote
some mechanical-turk-esque system that allowed them to classify large
amounts of traffic as cp/non-cp?
You don't need to classify large amounts of traffic for
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 03:08 +0300, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Ted Smith te...@riseup.net wrote:
Are we to believe that the Reddit commenter you're referencing wrote
some mechanical-turk-esque system that allowed them to classify large
amounts of traffic as
Silk Road reported to make $1.9 million per month,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/08/06/black-market-drug-site-silk-road-booming-22-million-in-annual-mostly-illegal-sales/
Tor Project reported to make $1.3 million per year,
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