Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Thanks Moritz. Most of that sounds good, but seems to leave the quality tech support issue in limbo (not your personal responsibility). I'm not being rude & hope I'm not beating a dead horse - just asking, what's the hold up on such an obvious need, that (apparently) requires relatively little, or else one man operations would never be able to do it. Upshot: I don't know why major software project, communicating on a world wide network wouldn't have a company run support forum. Manned by company employees or their appointees. I may be stating what many users are thinking. I think many potential Tor users fear or distrust what they don't fully understand. Which would seem to slow the increase of users. Tor Project says it needs to increase users, right? If that forum is to be stackexchange, shouldn't there should be project reps / mods - sometimes, qualified to answer many questions, or have tools to find answers? Many small projects provide excellent support (I use them all the time), on a fraction of Tor Project's resources. They often give precise, detailed answers in < 24 hrs. They usually don't answer, "Not sure. Good luck." Some years back, I contacted the Tor help desk, which told me to post on stack exchange. It got no helpful answers, when I was sure one existed. That was long ago, but typical users generally don't like that. Many walk away if they can't get help quickly. Or lose their freedom if using Tor incorrectly in some countries. Maybe Tor Project sees the value of a well run support forum, but never act. Tor-talk or any mailing list may never provide the best support for Tor users. Mailing lists aren't worthless, but lot's of users find long, technical discussions hard to follow on them - even w/ "conversation or thread view." Partly, because users reply in different "formats." Sometimes not quoting enough, for full context (then you have to find / read prior emails?); sometimes forwarding far too many replies - repeatedly. Sometimes a true pain to find earlier details. Sometimes they top / bottom post, or insert inline. Some mail clients don't display other clients' formatting correctly. Forum software puts everything in order & makes it easy(ier) to find & refer to full, previous comments - even link them. You just scroll down the entire conversation. Better search, easier to quote, insert images, code, etc. Maybe a Tor operated forum would allow including a few, small, unintrusive ads - or not (not from Google, etc.). For donations, sale of T-shirts - "I hacked the NSA & all I got was this lousy T-shirt," Alien hats, caps that look like aluminum foil?? Maybe most users wouldn't mind, so long as ads didn't come from trackers. Kind of touchy subject - maybe conduct a survey. Some might not mind small pay for click ads, when using TBB, if it generated enough revenue to matter - it may not. I believe? some Tor leaders have said the current funding model needs to change? There are only so many ways to do that. It has to start somewhere, or nothing ever changes. I'm not the 1st to say, a large % of potential users will never trust anonymity software largely funded by any government agency. That's no secret to Tor Project. Just a thought. On 9/28/2016 11:46 PM, Moritz Bartl wrote: Hi Joe, I agree with what you wrote. The topic comes up at every dev meeting, but we have not found a way to address that problem, or, phrased differently, it is unclear what path to take. On 09/28/2016 08:28 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: For a *technical support list,* why not moderate tor-talk? To keep peace, but also provide qualified support? There's nothing preventing making changes. Personally, I believe a mailinglist is a poor tool for support questions (and answers). Some of the problems are: Archives are a pain to search, older posts are a pain to reference, most people want a questions answered and get freaked out if they get a flood of messages that are not relevant to their current question, etc. That's one of the reasons why Tor created https://tor.stackexchange.com/ . I'm not saying it is the perfect answer, far from it, but I think it's a fine platform and it could use a way larger number of people answering questions (a problem any other platform will have, too). Also, I've been advocating for a "support portal" for years, and there seems to be some traction now to finally get one online. I don't know what it will look like, but at least from the "technical support" side of things, it will help a lot more users than those who are comfortable using mailing lists these days. I'm not saying I like that, I do embrace mailing lists, but I accept that most of Tor's users hate them or at least don't understand them well enough. That being said, tor-talk is now moderated, sort of. A few annoying fellows were asked to find some other forum for their rants. I also try and tell people within Tor that unless _they_ come back an
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Hi Joe, I agree with what you wrote. The topic comes up at every dev meeting, but we have not found a way to address that problem, or, phrased differently, it is unclear what path to take. On 09/28/2016 08:28 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: > For a *technical support list,* why not moderate tor-talk? To keep > peace, but also provide qualified support? There's nothing preventing > making changes. Personally, I believe a mailinglist is a poor tool for support questions (and answers). Some of the problems are: Archives are a pain to search, older posts are a pain to reference, most people want a questions answered and get freaked out if they get a flood of messages that are not relevant to their current question, etc. That's one of the reasons why Tor created https://tor.stackexchange.com/ . I'm not saying it is the perfect answer, far from it, but I think it's a fine platform and it could use a way larger number of people answering questions (a problem any other platform will have, too). Also, I've been advocating for a "support portal" for years, and there seems to be some traction now to finally get one online. I don't know what it will look like, but at least from the "technical support" side of things, it will help a lot more users than those who are comfortable using mailing lists these days. I'm not saying I like that, I do embrace mailing lists, but I accept that most of Tor's users hate them or at least don't understand them well enough. That being said, tor-talk is now moderated, sort of. A few annoying fellows were asked to find some other forum for their rants. I also try and tell people within Tor that unless _they_ come back and use this list as a forum for their conversations, we cannot expect it to become better. The other chance is for all the people who still follow this list to use it more and try and answer questions that come up or politely point to relevant resources, even if it does not immediately bring back "the hardcore Tor experts". > _Polite, sincere_ suggestions for features or policies changes are often > necessary. Many forums allow that. I've made polite, critical > suggestions on many forums, that lead to change - though sometimes > initially got criticism. A few got snarky, initial comments from the > devs, until the reasoning was clarified or they thought it over. Then > some showed up on change lists. Very different from ranting. I think this is happening here as well. Even if people might be too busy to reply, more Tor people than you think still at least read it, and more often than not pick up things from here to other Tor people. > It seems that's what's happened to Tor users. For most software or > hardware, if users can't get timely support, the user base may decline. > Even one man, open source projects often have active, moderated tech > support forums. I totally agree, and this is being worked on. I wished this list would be used by more Tor folks, and the plans and ideas for improving support channels could easily have happened here, but I also acknowledge that we have quite a number of new(-generation?) Tor folks who are not into mailing lists (or IRC!). Crazy, I know, but that's how it is. :-) -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Thanks Moritz. Yes, the reply was helpful. Comments / follow-up inserted below. On 9/28/2016 3:01 AM, Moritz Bartl wrote: Is tor-project list not for fairly advanced users, or bug filers, or those giving more to the community than just asking questions (but never contribute useful input)? Or is it only for devs or people providing highly technical input (e.g., providing code suggestions or highly technical bug work arounds, etc.)? So, one thing, and the most important one, is that _tor-project is for non-technical discussions "about the Tor Project_". Which can be a lot of things, but it should not be technical discussions (tor-dev), relay operation discussions (tor-relays), onion service stuff (tor-onions), but also _not_ anything else _related to Tor the software_, but Tor the project. Which basically means the website, organizational stuff, etc etc. Your comments mostly follow what I assumed. But, seems to leave even advanced users abandoned on timely Tor / Tor Browser & related software tech support. I get that "tor-project" is intended to discuss project related issues. The ideal scenario may be for quality contributors to return to tor-talk. They may not come back to the same unmoderated list. It's not happening, now. As you said, no one can be forced. If tor-talk remains unmoderated, the ranting will likely continue. *"If nothing changes, nothing changes."* Same is true for most unmoderated forums or lists I've briefly viewed - they're usually a free-for-all. Something about hiding behind computers... This leaves 2 questions. 1) Where is the real technical support for Tor / Tor Browser & network now? The questions & problems didn't disappear. 2) If tor-talk is unmoderated / unstaffed, doesn't that leave users in a bind? Tor-talk exists, but isn't providing consistent support. Apparently, being unmoderated drives away technical users, but allows long rants. For a *technical support list,* why not moderate tor-talk? To keep peace, but also provide qualified support? There's nothing preventing making changes. If a few just want to insult, they could start their own "Tor Sucks" list. I know of very few developer run forums allowing endless rants or pointless, crude comments. _Polite, sincere_ suggestions for features or policies changes are often necessary. Many forums allow that. I've made polite, critical suggestions on many forums, that lead to change - though sometimes initially got criticism. A few got snarky, initial comments from the devs, until the reasoning was clarified or they thought it over. Then some showed up on change lists. Very different from ranting. AFAIK, there are very few major softwares w/o _moderated_, active forums or lists. Usually with mods' or official reps' technical input, as needed. Otherwise, users are on their own. With Tor, lives or freedom could be at stake. It's unimaginable that Mozilla wouldn't have actively moderated, staffed support forums for each product. Now, Tor users might get better support on Mozillazine, if mods allowed the question. There may be more advanced Tor users on Mozilla / Mozillazine forums than on tor-talk. It seems that's what's happened to Tor users. For most software or hardware, if users can't get timely support, the user base may decline. Even one man, open source projects often have active, moderated tech support forums. Thanks. The archive and subscription is public, so everyone can have a look at what has been discussed there so far. There is a lot of overlap with things that used to be covered on tor-talk and still are, and the distinction is not clear at all. But, on the other hand, going through the archives you can probably identify a lot of things that are "accepted" on tor-talk that don't fit the range of topics covered on tor-project (-- and not the other way round). Is tor-talk now for the most basic beginner questions / answer / discussion? If still for technical issues and fairly technical people rarely visit it, there may be mostly questions & few answers. Is this partly because on tor-talk, numerous times that unmoderated discussions strayed from Tor issues? Not only partly, but mostly. :( A lot of people just didn't want to cope with the amount of off-topic threads, nonconstructive endless debates and other violations of netiquette that happened on tor-talk. tor-talk degenerated quite a bit over time, and due to the libertarian nature of a lot of people nobody stepped up and intervened until only a short while ago. Users of tor-talk cannot be fully blamed because for a long time there were no clear guidelines on what is acceptable behavior and topics on it (which there still aren't) and no moderation. Sane people just gave up and moved to a moderated list, which is tor-project. Everyone, especially the active Tor contributors, want tor-talk to become as useful again as it has been a long time ago, but only very few of them are remaining as s
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
> Is tor-project list not for fairly advanced users, or bug filers, or > those giving more to the community than just asking questions (but never > contribute useful input)? Or is it only for devs or people providing > highly technical input (e.g., providing code suggestions or highly > technical bug work arounds, etc.)? So, one thing, and the most important one, is that tor-project is for non-technical discussions "about the Tor Project". Which can be a lot of things, but it should not be technical discussions (tor-dev), relay operation discussions (tor-relays), onion service stuff (tor-onions), but also not anything else related to Tor the software, but Tor the project. Which basically means the website, organizational stuff, etc etc. The archive and subscription is public, so everyone can have a look at what has been discussed there so far. There is a lot of overlap with things that used to be covered on tor-talk and still are, and the distinction is not clear at all. But, on the other hand, going through the archives you can probably identify a lot of things that are "accepted" on tor-talk that don't fit the range of topics covered on tor-project (-- and not the other way round). > Is tor-talk now for the most basic beginner questions / answer / > discussion? If still for technical issues and fairly technical people > rarely visit it, there may be mostly questions & few answers. Is this > partly because on tor-talk, numerous times that unmoderated discussions > strayed from Tor issues? Not only partly, but mostly. :( A lot of people just didn't want to cope with the amount of off-topic threads, nonconstructive endless debates and other violations of netiquette that happened on tor-talk. tor-talk degenerated quite a bit over time, and due to the libertarian nature of a lot of people nobody stepped up and intervened until only a short while ago. Users of tor-talk cannot be fully blamed because for a long time there were no clear guidelines on what is acceptable behavior and topics on it (which there still aren't) and no moderation. Sane people just gave up and moved to a moderated list, which is tor-project. Everyone, especially the active Tor contributors, want tor-talk to become as useful again as it has been a long time ago, but only very few of them are remaining as subscribers, and less than a handful are reading or writing on it. If we manage somehow to get this back to a list with meaningful discussions and content, other Tor contributors will come back, but the ball is in our hands; we can't "demand" that they come back to a list full of crap, given the desire for effective and efficient collaboration. There is no clear policy for tor-project@, and everyone acknowledges that "actively contributing to Tor" can mean a lot of different things. Maybe a good approach is that if you feel like you have something constructive to add to a thread, and are capable of properly quoting relevant parts of an email and your mail client is able to keep threading intact, feel free to reply and the chances of the mail and eventually your address being accepted by one of the moderators is pretty high. It is not meant to exclude anyone, but sometimes it _is_ better to have a noise-free channel for only those that actively follow a certain topic or discussion, and not mixing active work with education. The educational side is important, and is in many respects covered by it having a public archive. If you feel you have a contribution to make, but don't feel "authorized" to directly post to tor-project, and you don't want to annoy all the "professionals", you can also always quote from tor-project and simply post your comment to tor-talk. Does this help? -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
On 9/26/2016 7:07 PM, Moritz Bartl wrote: On 09/26/2016 09:02 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: Some may say they still get several tor-talk emails / day and I do, too. But several current, relevant technical questions I've asked about Tor issues get no comments. Questions I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in. And that at least some advanced users would have partial answers or suggestions for, but not a peep. This is in stark contrast to the past on this list. At times, it almost seems that many knowledgeable people gave up or moved. Need to find where the cool kids are hanging. :) Some of it has moved to more specific lists like https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-onions and https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays . I know you, Joe, are aware of that, but others who follow this thread might not be so I wanted to mention it. Thanks Moritz. I was aware of some, but not all. I'm a bit confused. The subject matter for tor-onions and tor-relays lists are pretty obvious/./ But the tor-project link says, "About tor-project Moderated discussion list for tor contributors..." [ellipsis is included] /"How do I get permission to post to tor-project@ Just ask. Anyone is allowed to watch, but *posting is restricted* to those that actively want to make Tor better."/ What does "for tor [Sic] contributors" mean, exactly, or "those that actively want to make Tor better?" Is tor-project list not for fairly advanced users, or bug filers, or those giving more to the community than just asking questions (but never contribute useful input)? Or is it only for devs or people providing highly technical input (e.g., providing code suggestions or highly technical bug work arounds, etc.)? Is tor-talk now for the most basic beginner questions / answer / discussion? If still for technical issues and fairly technical people rarely visit it, there may be mostly questions & few answers. Is this partly because on tor-talk, numerous times that unmoderated discussions strayed from Tor issues? -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
On 09/26/2016 09:02 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: > Some may say they still get several tor-talk emails / day and I do, too. > > But several current, relevant technical questions I've asked about Tor > issues get no comments. > Questions I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in. And > that at least some advanced users would have partial answers or > suggestions for, but not a peep. > This is in stark contrast to the past on this list. > > At times, it almost seems that many knowledgeable people gave up or moved. > Need to find where the cool kids are hanging. :) Some of it has moved to more specific lists like https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-onions and https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays . I know you, Joe, are aware of that, but others who follow this thread might not be so I wanted to mention it. -- Moritz Bartl https://www.torservers.net/ -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
On 26/09/16 03:02 PM, Joe Btfsplk wrote: > But several current, relevant technical questions I've asked about Tor > issues get no comments. > Questions I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in. And > that at least some advanced users would have partial answers or > suggestions for, but not a peep. > This is in stark contrast to the past on this list. Did you ask them as part of another comment or conversation, or in a separate email with appropriate subject line? -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Some may say they still get several tor-talk emails / day and I do, too. But several current, relevant technical questions I've asked about Tor issues get no comments. Questions I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be interested in. And that at least some advanced users would have partial answers or suggestions for, but not a peep. This is in stark contrast to the past on this list. At times, it almost seems that many knowledgeable people gave up or moved. Need to find where the cool kids are hanging. :) -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
> tort...@arcor.de wrote: >> It depends on what you want to read. If you want some scary rants >> about Tor and 0 days you might want to read: >> >> http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/09/bug-that-hit-firefox-and-tor-browsers-was-hard-to-spot-now-we-know-why/ >> "Bug that hit Firefox and Tor browsers was hard to spot now we know >> why" > His bug was interesting in a few ways. For one, it appeared weeks > after he claimed to have it. Perhaps most surprising was that senior > engineers needed to walk him through the problem he was interested in > reporting (by Erinn Atwater & Ryan Duff [2]) before he could articulate > it in any meaningful way. His insistence that it was a Tor-exclusive > bug also cost him a bug bounty from Mozilla (their chart would appear to > indicate $10k+ for a bug like that). Why should Tor users be interested in the expertise or motives of the person who reported this bug? > It's also worth noting that Tor released a patch the same day the bug > was > finally reported. Rotor Browser (jmprcx/movrcx's project) hasn't > patched the issue [1], even though Mozilla and Tor both did. -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
tort...@arcor.de wrote: It depends on what you want to read. If you want some scary rants about Tor and 0 days you might want to read: http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/09/bug-that-hit-firefox-and-tor-browsers-was-hard-to-spot-now-we-know-why/ "Bug that hit Firefox and Tor browsers was hard to spot now we know why" His bug was interesting in a few ways. For one, it appeared weeks after he claimed to have it. Perhaps most surprising was that senior engineers needed to walk him through the problem he was interested in reporting (by Erinn Atwater & Ryan Duff [2]) before he could articulate it in any meaningful way. His insistence that it was a Tor-exclusive bug also cost him a bug bounty from Mozilla (their chart would appear to indicate $10k+ for a bug like that). It's also worth noting that Tor released a patch the same day the bug was finally reported. Rotor Browser (jmprcx/movrcx's project) hasn't patched the issue [1], even though Mozilla and Tor both did. or you follow this discussion. https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2016WinterDevMeeting/Notes/TakeBackCommunityChannels "Take back community channels...High-level report-out notes from Roger" That discussion happened in Feb/March of this year as part of the Winter meeting. The upcoming Seattle meeting is the Summer meeting (I know, I know). The link above shows the outcome of the discussion -- hence "report-out". [2] https://twitter.com/errorinn/status/778012774416777216 [1] https://github.com/IndependentOnion/rotor-browser -- Accept what you cannot change, and change what you cannot accept. PGP: 0x03cf4a0ab3c79a63 -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Conspiracy analysts [un]cover areas coders, users, officials, and media don't or won't... which can be a useful part of any ecosystem. They could be considered leakers, but instead of leaking facts, they present hard questions to be [dis]proved... the limbo area of untested hypothesis before a proven conclusion is reached. So I don't mind them much as long as it's generally thoughtful, plausible, and is a commensurately low fraction of traffic. The angry abusive troll accounts that pop up namecalling and shittalking are a bit much though. Thankfully they're quite rare and die off on their own, even before censorship was deployed. And of course any news or controversial aspect of any project is going to have at least some talk associated with it. That's normal. -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
Transparency is key at all levels and on all topics. Without transparency, Tor will end. It will be a slow degradation. Tor will loose participants and funding slowly at all level and in all capacities. Development will slow and eventually, it will fade. And who benefits? Not Tor users. If you wanted to destroy Tor, this is a perfect way to do it. Create a separate mailing list if you want but all topics should be free and open for conversation. Openness and transparency is the life blood of Tor, without it, the project is dead. Its just a matter of time. On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 6:57 AM, Alec Muffett wrote: > On 18 September 2016 at 04:30, grarpamp wrote: > > > No it's not just you. Ever since Jakegate / Torgate Tor Project > > Incorporated has seemingly enforced lockdown, censorship, and > > comms hardening, beginning with their own silence and that of those > > they control. A chilling effect. > > > I think it's awesome, to the point where I've actually resubscribed. > > It's nice to have a maillist which is about the topic of Tor, rather than > filled with conspiracy drama. > > Now maybe I can contribute without fear of being swamped in ad-hominem > bullshit. > > -a > > -- > http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm > -- > tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org > To unsubscribe or change other settings go to > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk > -- -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
On 18 September 2016 at 04:30, grarpamp wrote: > No it's not just you. Ever since Jakegate / Torgate Tor Project > Incorporated has seemingly enforced lockdown, censorship, and > comms hardening, beginning with their own silence and that of those > they control. A chilling effect. I think it's awesome, to the point where I've actually resubscribed. It's nice to have a maillist which is about the topic of Tor, rather than filled with conspiracy drama. Now maybe I can contribute without fear of being swamped in ad-hominem bullshit. -a -- http://dropsafe.crypticide.com/aboutalecm -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
grarpamp wrote: On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Andrew F wrote: I ued to get several post a day. Now I get less then a couple a week? No it's not just you. Ever since Jakegate / Torgate Tor Project Incorporated has seemingly enforced lockdown, censorship, and comms hardening, beginning with their own silence and that of those they control. A chilling effect. Not helped at all by simple requests for transparency gone completely ignored by corporate principals in position to answer... Tor-talk may not be as active as it once was but it is more active than the OP is describing. My inbox shows 40 posts in the last seven days. Admittedly 15 of those were from somebody who generated duplicate posts because of technical difficulties, but even 25/week appears to be more than the OP described. Maybe the OP should check his spam folder? He may also want to visit the tor-talk archives to compare it to what he has been receiving. Jim -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
We gotta kick it online/make it More active then, we fight fire with fire , if someone wants censorship we defeat them with crypto, code and other Nice stuff grarpamp skrev: (18 september 2016 05:30:07 CEST) >On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Andrew F > wrote: >> I ued to get several post a day. Now I get less then a couple a >week? > >No it's not just you. Ever since Jakegate / Torgate Tor Project >Incorporated has seemingly enforced lockdown, censorship, and >comms hardening, beginning with their own silence and that of those >they control. A chilling effect. Not helped at all by simple requests >for transparency gone completely ignored by corporate principals in >position to answer... >https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19794 >Further complicated by Tor being shown to be not exactly strong >against GPA's, certain other classes of attack, financing, etc. >So the whole thing perhaps backfired over a few months to where >people now feel they can't post freely to peers and/or just don't >care to post anymore. >At least that's one theory I've heard to explain the quiet. >Feel free to suggest or show others. >Don't get me wrong, tor and the project are really awesome >in particular areas and totally worth following [1], just that some >talk I've seen seems feeling the blanket pass to all areas has come >and gone. Is that true and good or bad? I don't know. You'd >probably have to look at the history of opensource projects, >reasonably in the public interest, to determine that. And then >talk about it to see further. > >[1] For example, multiplatform, great at hiding traffic content >and sources from casual intermediate observers, exits >all over the first world, fast, reproducible, pushing some legal >boundaries, publishing research for review, etc. >-- >tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org >To unsubscribe or change other settings go to >https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk -- Sincerly Flipchan -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
Re: [tor-talk] is it me or did tor talk get really quiet?
On Sat, Sep 17, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Andrew F wrote: > I ued to get several post a day. Now I get less then a couple a week? No it's not just you. Ever since Jakegate / Torgate Tor Project Incorporated has seemingly enforced lockdown, censorship, and comms hardening, beginning with their own silence and that of those they control. A chilling effect. Not helped at all by simple requests for transparency gone completely ignored by corporate principals in position to answer... https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19794 Further complicated by Tor being shown to be not exactly strong against GPA's, certain other classes of attack, financing, etc. So the whole thing perhaps backfired over a few months to where people now feel they can't post freely to peers and/or just don't care to post anymore. At least that's one theory I've heard to explain the quiet. Feel free to suggest or show others. Don't get me wrong, tor and the project are really awesome in particular areas and totally worth following [1], just that some talk I've seen seems feeling the blanket pass to all areas has come and gone. Is that true and good or bad? I don't know. You'd probably have to look at the history of opensource projects, reasonably in the public interest, to determine that. And then talk about it to see further. [1] For example, multiplatform, great at hiding traffic content and sources from casual intermediate observers, exits all over the first world, fast, reproducible, pushing some legal boundaries, publishing research for review, etc. -- tor-talk mailing list - tor-talk@lists.torproject.org To unsubscribe or change other settings go to https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk
