Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

jllaudio wrote: 
> I'm looking for a linear PS to replace the Walwart that came with the
> Touch.  I would appreciate any recommendations.
> 
> Thanks,
> jllaudio

So did you try the 'Uptone LPS-1.2'
(https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2) ? Or what PS did you
try ?

More expensive options is the 'JS-2'
(https://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply) from same
company. Or the Paul Hynes supply’s. But those I haven’t tried myself.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[sgmlaw]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> A balanced isolation transformer and a well performed technical earth
> will get rid of most evils but if you have a SMPSU anywhere in you audio
> system..
> 
> This is a good read if you're interested in high quality power
> http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/AQMSFLY1.htm

I now prefer active filtration in parallel, as isolation transformers
and other in-line mains regeneration methods become extremely bulky (and
increasingly expensive and inefficient) where higher current delivery is
involved.

The former's technology has finally matured where it is genuinely
effective, and unlike a transformer, gets out of the way of my amperage
stream.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

sgmlaw wrote: 
> That is absolutely the truth.  And it has gotten worse below 10 MHz,
> too.  And it gets into everything.  Passive mains filtering catches only
> some of it.  Years ago, all I had to worry about was a little RF on the
> line and some compressor and motor noise that was manageable.  Some of
> these new high E chargers and AC supplies are noise machines.
> 
> Fortunately, commercial OTA at the tower (here in the US) has gotten so
> poor in quality that it seems to balance out, and I don't feel I am
> missing anything anyway.
> 
> But I am probably going to start putting in some active measures soon to
> tamp down some of it, as noise wave-form cancelling technology has
> dramatically improved in the past 5 years.

A balanced isolation transformer and a well performed technical earth
will get rid of most evils but if you have a SMPSU anywhere in you audio
system..



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[sgmlaw]

ar-t wrote: 
> OK, one more observation on SMPS. I'll try to be as brief as possible,
> which isn't always easy for a nerdy engineer.
> 
> Relative to 20-25 years ago, I can tell you the noise floor, in the 10
> MHz region, is about 20 dB higher than it was back then. This is as
> measured off of an antenna we have strung up, for various "shortwave
> radio projects". (Don't ask why..you really do not want to
> know.)
> 
> Below 10 MHz, it is worse, but we do not have any recorded data of what
> is was way back when. So, no way to say how much it has gotten worse,
> with the proliferation of SMPS, CFLs, and LED lighting.
> 
> And speaking of which
> 
> If you have to replace a fluorescent ballast, they do make ones
> specifically for residential applications. Trying to find one at the
> local home improvement store might be tough. I believe some ham radio
> dorks sued the big one, because one of their worker drones said it was
> ok to use one designed for commercial use in their home.
> 
> (I have both, at my house. Both mess up hand-held SW radios, but I
> honestly can't tell you which one is which, using the radio as a
> measurement device.)
> 
> All for now! (Aren't you relieved?)

That is absolutely the truth.  And it has gotten worse below 10 MHz,
too.  And it gets into everything.  Passive mains filtering catches only
some of it.  Years ago, all I had to worry about was a little RF on the
line and some compressor and motor noise that was manageable.  Some of
these new high E chargers and AC supplies are noise machines.

Fortunately, commercial OTA at the tower (here in the US) has gotten so
poor in quality that it seems to balance out, and I don't feel I am
missing anything anyway.

But I am probably going to start putting in some active measures soon to
tamp down some of it, as noise wave-form cancelling technology has
dramatically improved in the past 5 years.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[cfuttrup]

bakker_be wrote: 
> iFi power supplies:
> https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/

Thanks - I'll steer away from those ... :-)

/Claus



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

ar-t wrote: 
> OK, one more observation on SMPS. I'll try to be as brief as possible,
> which isn't always easy for a nerdy engineer.
> 
> Relative to 20-25 years ago, I can tell you the noise floor, in the 10
> MHz region, is about 20 dB higher than it was back then. This is as
> measured off of an antenna we have strung up, for various "shortwave
> radio projects". (Don't ask why..you really do not want to
> know.)
> 
> Below 10 MHz, it is worse, but we do not have any recorded data of what
> is was way back when. So, no way to say how much it has gotten worse,
> with the proliferation of SMPS, CFLs, and LED lighting.
> 
> And speaking of which
> 
> If you have to replace a fluorescent ballast, they do make ones
> specifically for residential applications. Trying to find one at the
> local home improvement store might be tough. I believe some ham radio
> dorks sued the big one, because one of their worker drones said it was
> ok to use one designed for commercial use in their home.
> 
> (I have both, at my house. Both mess up hand-held SW radios, but I
> honestly can't tell you which one is which, using the radio as a
> measurement device.)
> 
> All for now! (Aren't you relieved?)

Do you know what I can do about the interference my Tesla coil causes ?

It really upsets my listening when the discharge hits me on the earlobe
:D



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[ar-t]

OK, one more observation on SMPS. I'll try to be as brief as possible,
which isn't always easy for a nerdy engineer.

Relative to 20-25 years ago, I can tell you the noise floor, in the 10
MHz region, is about 20 dB higher than it was back then. This is as
measured off of an antenna we have strung up, for various "shortwave
radio projects". (Don't ask why..you really do not want to
know.)

Below 10 MHz, it is worse, but we do not have any recorded data of what
is was way back when. So, no way to say how much it has gotten worse,
with the proliferation of SMPS, CFLs, and LED lighting.

And speaking of which

If you have to replace a fluorescent ballast, they do make ones
specifically for residential applications. Trying to find one at the
local home improvement store might be tough. I believe some ham radio
dorks sued the big one, because one of their worker drones said it was
ok to use one designed for commercial use in their home.

(I have both, at my house. Both mess up hand-held SW radios, but I
honestly can't tell you which one is which, using the radio as a
measurement device.)

All for now! (Aren't you relieved?)



http://ar-t.co

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[ar-t]

ar-t wrote: 
> Hope no one minds if I jump into an old thread, but..
> 
> We get questions about things of this nature, all the time. So, if I may
> be permitted, let me make this one observation.
> 
> We have noticed, from time to time, there was a 60 Hz spur, in our phase
> noise measurements. (Measuring and quantifying clocks is one of the main
> tasks, in the other side of the business.) It would come and go, and we
> had a hard time nailing down its cause.
> 
> Turns out it was the 5 V wall warts, that we sometimes used to warm up
> clocks, before sticking them in the main test fixture.
> 
> The reason I point this out it is the same brand, and model, that
> frequently comes with Squeezebox products.
> 
> Granted, this noise is pretty far down, in the noise. But, it is there,
> and we could occasionally see its effects.
> 
> Can anyone hear this, on their Squeezebox? I dunno.maybe,
> maybe not. But, if we can measure it, the possibility exists that one
> can hear it.
> 
> For the record, other brands are as bad, or worse. Some models, of the
> same manufacturer, are better. The SMPS we have looked at seem to be all
> over the map, and there is no clear-cut good, or bad, brand/model.
> 
> LPS have their own issues.
> 
> The answer is there is no 100% correct answer. And we tossed a small
> handful, of wall warts, just to be sure.

OKanother interruption, if you don't
mind..

Turns out some of our noise problems were also caused by the SMPS in our
computer monitors. Solution to that problem turned out to be position of
the monitor relative to our test gear. Sometimes turning it 90 degrees
would fix it. Other times, it was more tricky to eliminate.

As before: can anyone actually hear these effects? I'll give that a
definite possibly maybe qualified "well, it depends."



http://ar-t.co

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[bakker_be]

It's not the iPower, but just FYI regarding iFi power supplies:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-sonore-microrendu-streamer.577/



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Kandiru]

Another vote for iFi iPower.

Smooth sound on my separates system, subjective bias a possibility.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[iPhone]

philippe_44 wrote: 
> @iPhone although you're technically correct, I'm not sure I see the
> benefit to start with an abrasive answer. It does not look like
> @jazzwave has been propagating some audiophile woo woo on this forum at
> all, so why not just (as you do in the second part of your post) explain
> him why his beliefs are incorrect? I'm not the police of this forum,
> needless to say but from time to time, for no good reason, it saddens me
> to see SB users (we are an endangered species) fighting for no reason,
> where education is what's needed.

.
Who is fighting? I didn't see any fighting in my post and as you said,
just actual Facts! My post was educating the obvious uneducated. An END
needs to be brought to the never ending reviving of the Linear Power
Supply Myth (especially when the unit getting said $300 Linear PS has
internal switching supplies after the external PS)! Yes power supplies
are important, but only the uneducated idiot buys a $300 Power Supply
for a Touch that only retailed for $299!

Next is the silly premise that "it sounds better" with an out of spec
PS, IE the "beholder" has magical calibrated ears but in reality actual
has imagined everything to validate their actual lack of knowledge. Just
exactly how does one go about attempting to "educate" somebody that
can't apply knowledge and science because they depend on their perceived
imagination? And of course, ones ears can easily discern certain things
like the differences between listening to music from a 3 inch full range
taped to a cardboard box versus a pair of home-brew three way speakers
with poor cross-overs versus a pair of Vandersteen Model 7 speakers all
being feed by Ayre Acoustics electronics! But when comparing ANY power
supply against another with the Squeezebox Touch, no matter how great
one's ears are, the only one that is going to actually sound different
will be a defective power supply! There will be no increase or decrease
in sound stage, no higher clearer highs, no deeper extended bass, IE no
change whatsoever between in spec power supplies with the required
minimum audio filtering!

So how does one "educate" these individuals, I'm all ears (pun
intended)!



*iPhone*   
Media Room:
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[philippe_44]

@iPhone although you're technically correct, I'm not sure I see the
benefit to start with an abrasive answer. It does not look like
@jazzwave has been propagating some audiophile woo woo on this forum at
all, so why not just (as you do in the second part of your post) explain
him why his beliefs are incorrect? I'm not the police of this forum,
needless to say but from time to time, for no good reason, it saddens me
to see SB users (we are an endangered species) fighting for no reason,
where education is what's needed.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[iPhone]

jazzwave wrote: 
> I'm looking up-grade PS for my SBT, linear Power Supply (PS) was in my
> radar. But the good one (as informed in some forum) with >$300 price.
> After read this thread , I decided to buy iPower 5V before jump to $400
> linear power supply
> 
> Received iPower 5V last night, replaced the original SBT power supply.
> I can hear the different compare to OEM, more quite, vocal more clear
> and enjoyable. No impact to soundstage, still same.
> But I have to turn amp volume higher to have same level with OEM ps
> (suspected OEM deliver 3A and iPower only 2.5A)
> 
> 
> Not bad for $49 solution...:cool:
> So far I'm happy with this solution and save my money
> 
> ~ron~

.
April First has long passed so please don't post such incorrect rubbish
based on your perception that your ears are somehow calibrated test
equipment! 
Output volume is NOT affected one bit by excess current, it is neither
louder or lower output. And since the 2.5 Amp is close enough to spec
(especially for the analog op-amp section), you aren't hearing any
differences whatsoever! More over, the SBT has multiple internal
switching supplies inside the unit so changing the external power supply
as ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on the Touch performance as long as said PS
delivers the minimum required voltage and current while being designed
to use with audio equipment (clean enough). The Touch is NOT an audio
amplifier driving speakers where available excess PS current is used to
aid dynamic headroom! The only way to even remotely improve the output
specs of the SBT is to disable the internal switching power supplies and
feed those circuits directly with the proper DC voltage from battery
sources. I have accomplished this and measured the improvement with
actual test equipment, it however is not even remotely worth the time
and expense to do this when one can just feed a high end DAC for a much
better result using the Touch only as a file transport! I would not have
done it if Caleb hadn't sent me a box full of "beyond bothering to
repair" Squeezebox units! Simple way to prove this is to buy a 6VDC
battery and feed your Touch with it! Zero ripple, zero noise, zero
feedback, zero hum, zero ground loop, nothing but perfectly clean power
with all the reserve current one can image if you use a 6VDC 10Ah
rechargeable battery! You will not hear any difference unless the actual
AC power supply you are currently using is DEFECTIVE!
Linear Power Supplies are a useless addition to a Touch as well as a
waste of money with the SBT. No real improvement is possible (other then
a slight improvement from using a battery as the external power source,
especially if ones mains are really dirty with the switcher passing that
onto the Touch).



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Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer   

Living Room:
Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model
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Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[drmatt]

Very weird. It shouldn't be quieter unless it's utterly underpowered and
the voltage drops through the floor under load. And I would wager the
SBT processor and screen uses a heck of a lot more power than the audio
output stage.


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[jazzwave]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> I like the caveat at the buttom of this spec !
> 
> 23519

I'm looking up-grade PS for my SBT, linear Power Supply (PS) was in my
radar. But the good one (as informed in some forum) with >$300 price.
After read this thread , I decided to buy iPower 5V before jump to $400
linear power supply

Received iPower 5V last night, replaced the original SBT power supply.
I can hear the different compare to OEM, more quite, vocal more clear
and enjoyable. No impact to soundstage, still same.
But I have to turn amp volume higher to have same level with OEM ps
(suspected OEM deliver 3A and iPower only 2.5A)


Not bad for $49 solution...:cool:
So far I'm happy with this solution and save my money

~ron~



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amp- Spendor 3/5S speaker*

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

I like the caveat at the buttom of this spec !

23519


+---+
|Filename: Audio-Band-Noise-Floor.png   |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23519|
+---+


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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Mnyb]

slartibartfast wrote: 
> The interesting thing is that the ifi power supply does not appear to be
> a linear power supply. It has an input voltage range of 100V to 240V
> which is impossible for a linear supply. 
> 
> https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

That's actually refreshing. The belief that a certian design principle
is always better is not good .

This whole tread is based on a myth that linear is always better for
everything.

We can instead have good vs bad designs linier or switchmode .

And also does it really matter much when the ps is actually working as
it should given how the Touch is designed ( not so much )




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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

slartibartfast wrote: 
> The interesting thing is that the ifi power supply does not appear to be
> a linear power supply. It has an input voltage range of 100V to 240V
> which is impossible for a linear supply. 

Good point. They don't claim it is linear, and it would be hard to make
a linear power supply that small.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[slartibartfast]

r11bordo wrote: 
> Overall improvment ... Reduced price, around 60€ and it exists only one
> 5V model. The hdplex tested was the 300 watts model. The SBT doesn't use
> competition voltage regulator, so, it seems logical to hear some effects
> with an optmized power supply.
> On a W4S recovery, it is more difficult to hear an effect with a ifi
> ipower.The interesting thing is that the ifi power supply does not appear to 
> be
a linear power supply. It has an input voltage range of 100V to 240V
which is impossible for a linear supply. 

https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk





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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[r11bordo]

Overall improvment ... Reduced price, around 60€ and it exists only one
5V model. The hdplex tested was the 300 watts model. The SBT doesn't use
competition voltage regulator, so, it seems logical to hear some effects
with an optmized power supply.
On a W4S recovery, it is more difficult to hear an effect with a ifi
ipower.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

r11bordo wrote: 
> I looked the topic 'Linear power supply' and I replied. Any issue with
> that for you ?
> 

My issue was with you stating "great improvment" without clarifying what
kind of improvement you were talking about. Power consumption? Price?
Size? Ease of use? If the answer is "subjectively perceived sound
quality", then the discussion definitely belongs in the "audiophile"
section. In any case, I'll better follow the advice from Michael.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[r11bordo]

Hi Julf,
I looked the topic 'Linear power supply' and I replied. Any issue with
that for you ?
No need for me to discuss on audiophile topic...
For information, I have compared a hdplex to a ifi ipower, same result
for both.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

r11bordo wrote: 
> Hi Juli

"Julf", not "Juli". 

r11bordo wrote: 
> Be curious, try yourself...

What makes you think I haven't? Happy to continue the discussion in the
audiophile section, where it belongs.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

mherger wrote: 
> No problem there, really. I just suggested you don't waste your time 
> (and those following the useless argument) because we already know the 
> outcome (or lack thereof).

Ack! We do have the "audiophile" section specifically for that kind of
useless discussions.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Michael Herger]

mherger wrote:

Please take a break. You know very well yourself that you're asking for
a useless argument.


So making vacuous claims is OK, questioning them isn't?


No problem there, really. I just suggested you don't waste your time 
(and those following the useless argument) because we already know the 
outcome (or lack thereof).


--

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

mherger wrote: 
> Please take a break. You know very well yourself that you're asking for
> a useless argument. 

So making vacuous claims is OK, questioning them isn't?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[r11bordo]

Hi Juli,
Be curious, try yourself...



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Michael Herger]

Juli,

Please take a break. You know very well yourself that you're asking for a 
useless argument. 

Michael

> Am 27.08.2017 um 21:41 schrieb Julf 
> :
> 
> 
> r11bordo wrote: 
>> Great improvment regarding my last linear supply. I bought 2 others psu
>> to power a w4s recovery and a usb-spdif interface dxio pro3z. The best
>> improvment obtained is on the SBT, less obvious with the pro3z or the
>> recovery.
> 
> Improvement in what respect?
> 
> 
> 
> "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
> fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
> edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953
> 
> Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050
> View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=82648
> 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

r11bordo wrote: 
> Great improvment regarding my last linear supply. I bought 2 others psu
> to power a w4s recovery and a usb-spdif interface dxio pro3z. The best
> improvment obtained is on the SBT, less obvious with the pro3z or the
> recovery.

Improvement in what respect?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[r11bordo]

Great improvment regarding my last linear supply. I bought 2 others psu
to power a w4s recovery and a usb-spdif interface dxio pro3z. The best
improvment obtained is on the SBT, less obvious with the pro3z or the
recovery.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

r11bordo wrote: 
> The best power supply i have tested with SBT is a ifi ipower.

Best in what way?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[r11bordo]

The best power supply i have tested with SBT is a ifi ipower.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[drmatt]

I did read it correctly then


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Apesbrain]

drmatt wrote: 
> Did I read that linked thread correctly? An external PSU on a SBT
> "improved the audio quality" when it's connected to an external DAC?
Incredible claims about all kinds of things are made every day by
knowledgeable people and by those in authority.  This thread is almost
seven years old and no one to date has demonstrated that any of these
add-on devices stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Credible findings with regard to many of these topics can be found in
Archimago's blog: http://archimago.blogspot.com/



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[drmatt]

Did I read that linked thread correctly? An external PSU on a SBT
"improved the audio quality" when it's connected to an external DAC?


-Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk-



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Debian+LMS 7.9.0
Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

R1200CL wrote: 
> https://community.roonlabs.com/t/logitech-transporter-vs-sonore-microrendu/21957/15?u=r1200cl

Cant see any technical explanation of how it works, just some subjective
views saying it does.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[slartibartfast]

R1200CL wrote: 
> https://community.roonlabs.com/t/logitech-transporter-vs-sonore-microrendu/21957/15?u=r1200cl
The key words would be "voodoo" and "unbelievable" then.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk





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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[alfista]

R1200CL wrote: 
> The LPS-1 is not a linear power supply.

>From the Uptone Audio web page:

> The LPS-1 is a single output, 1-amp linear power supply 

Uptone is of course the company behind the venerable USB REGEN and
similar products.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> So explain what the LPS-1 is and what it does then explain how it
> improves sound quality.
> 
> The electronics engineers amongst us would be interested

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/logitech-transporter-vs-sonore-microrendu/21957/15?u=r1200cl



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[slartibartfast]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> So explain what the LPS-1 is and what it does then explain how it
> improves sound quality.
> 
> The electronics engineers amongst us would be interested
+1

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk





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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

firedog wrote: 
> Thanks for the lecture. Too bad you don't have a clue what the LPS-1
> product is or what it does. I you did, you wouldn't have written the
> above.

So explain what the LPS-1 is and what it does then explain how it
improves sound quality.

The electronics engineers amongst us would be interested



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[firedog]

iPhone wrote: 
> There is only ONE way to create a DC output without any AC artifacts
> especially when one starts with dirty residential AC power and that is
> to use a DC battery IE do not start by using ANY AC Power. A linear
> power supply can't really help the SB3 or the Touch since both have
> internal switching power converters (which are fairly well engineered
> because they knew they were dealing with audio and meeting a price point
> was the only reason for not spending more money to get power issues any
> lower). The design is actually good enough that it does take much more
> money that doesn't make sense spending to lower noise etc. Could the
> internal supplies be a little cleaner sure, but the cheapest way to get
> them cleaner and with much greater results is to by-pass them with the
> specific DC Voltage provided by external battery supplies. 
> 
> I have tested a Touch and SB3 run off a battery supply instead of the AC
> Wall unit and using an HP Network Analyzer shows that it is really not
> worth the trouble. Yes there is an improvement from a purist point of
> view but considering that the Touch or SB3 is still going to be the
> weakest part of any expensive audio system it simply doesn't matter IE
> again its not worth bothering. Then looking at a system where the Touch
> isn't the weakest link in the audio path, it again doesn't matter
> because it would be impossible to hear any difference if the Touch isn't
> the weakest part because other equipment would either mask it or
> outright cover it up. 
> 
> The solution to this supposed "Issue" is to simply buy a Transporter!
> SB3 and Touch are for streaming high quality digital files on good
> equipment. Transporter is for streaming high quality digital files on
> great (audiophile) equipment.

Thanks for the lecture. Too bad you don't have a clue what the product
is or what it does. I you did, you wouldn't have written the above.



GIK Acoustics Room Treatments. CAPS4 Pipeline w/Sonore PS running
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
>  Not the LPS-1.

I hope you one day will have the chance 
You could borrow mine, but is's a lot of hazel since I'm in Norway, and
in and out with customs.
(Also you will need a transition plug).



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> The LPS-1 is not a linear power supply. I would expect you to know
> better. 

I wrote "I have tried with a linear power supply". Not the LPS-1.

> Most PS supplies won't make much difference on the SBT. The original
> supplied is quite good.

I agree.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[slartibartfast]

R1200CL wrote: 
> The LPS-1 is not a linear power supply. I would expect you to know
> better. 
> 
> Most PS supplies won't make much difference on the SBT. The original
> supplied is quite good.
Uptone audio describe it as a linear power supply on their website.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk





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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Quote from the producer:

Well the UltraCap LPS-1 is unique in being an extremely low impedance
unit with cascaded ultra-low-noise (4uV rms from 10Hz to 100kHz)
regulators.  
And most importantly, as a bank alternating supply whose active output
is 100% isolated from the charging side, it completely blocks the path
of AC leakage currents, a important part of removing whatever it is
powering from the "leakage loop" in that part of one's system (ALL audio
systems have leakage loops happening between components with power
supplies).  The LPS-1 is a bit like a battery supply in this
respect--without the several disadvantages of batteries.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> Well, I have tried with a linear power supply, and didn't notice any
> change. 

The LPS-1 is not a linear power supply. I would expect you to know
better. 

Most PS supplies won't make much difference on the SBT. The original
supplied is quite good.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[nonamenoname]

Julf wrote: 
> Well, I have tried with a linear power supply, and didn't notice any
> change. 
> 
> I think "You will find a lot more about how brilliant the  is
> over at CA" is a valid statement for any value of  :)


i have a cheap(80$) chinese linear power supply 2x 5v(adjustable) 2.5a

the only benefit is that it can power the touch + attached harddrive

which the original 3.0a power supply can't!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> You have to try for yourself to really believe. 

Well, I have tried with a linear power supply, and didn't notice any
change. 

> You will find a lot more about how brilliant the LPS-1 is over at CA.

I think "You will find a lot more about how brilliant the  is
over at CA" is a valid statement for any value of  :)



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

sckramer wrote: 
>  Isn't this Vinnie Rossi's idea?

I can't tell you who got the idea. The LPS-1 came out first. Yes it's
same technology. Vinnie is spending money on having a patent. His PS is
more expensive and have higher ratings. 

You can serial connect the LPS-1 for higher voltage, but as a rule not
parallel, so you are limited to 1,1 or 1,2 A.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Fizbin wrote: 
> So you've compared this with the stock power supply? What differences
> are you're hearing? I would have to see some measurements to back your
> claim.

About measurements, please as Alex / Superdad or Johan Swenson over in
the CA. (Computer Audiophile).



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Julf wrote: 
> What specific aspects does it improve?

Everything ;)

Sorry. I have not seen your question before now. 

It's hard for me to describe, but in my friends setup the difference was
really huge. You have to try for yourself to really believe. 

You will find a lot more about how brilliant the LPS-1 is over at CA.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[ar-t]

Hope no one minds if I jump into an old thread, but..

We get questions about things of this nature, all the time. So, if I may
be permitted, let me make this one observation.

We have noticed, from time to time, there was a 60 Hz spur, in our phase
noise measurements. (Measuring and quantifying clocks is one of the main
tasks, in the other side of the business.) It would come and go, and we
had a hard time nailing down its cause.

Turns out it was the 5 V wall warts, that we sometimes used to warm up
clocks, before sticking them in the main test fixture.

The reason I point this out it is the same brand, and model, that
frequently comes with Squeezebox products.

Granted, this noise is pretty far down, in the noise. But, it is there,
and we could occasionally see its effects.

Can anyone hear this, on their Squeezebox? I dunno.maybe,
maybe not. But, if we can measure it, the possibility exists that one
can hear it.

For the record, other brands are as bad, or worse. Some models, of the
same manufacturer, are better. The SMPS we have looked at seem to be all
over the map, and there is no clear-cut good, or bad, brand/model.

LPS have their own issues.

The answer is there is no 100% correct answer. And we tossed a small
handful, of wall warts, just to be sure.



http://ar-t.co

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[sckramer]

Wow that looks insanely overengineered -- can there be any more
components on that board?!? Isn't this Vinnie Rossi's idea?



Scott Kramer - 'AudioSystem' (http://bit.ly/1ruj0Zw) - 'YouTube'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Fizbin]

R1200CL wrote: 
> Just let you know that the UpTone Audio new LPS-1 power supply will make
> a quite good improvement to your touch.
> For what you get price is not bad. (And you can keep using your LPS)
> 
> http://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1

So you've compared this with the stock power supply? What differences
are you're hearing? I would have to see some measurements to back your
claim.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

R1200CL wrote: 
> Just let you know that the UpTone Audio new LPS-1 power supply will make
> a quite good improvement to your touch.

What specific aspects does it improve?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[R1200CL]

Just let you know that the UpTone Audio new LPS-1 power supply will make
a quite good improvement to your touch.
For what you get price is not bad. (And you can keep using your LPS)

http://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Thanks.  I may eventually try to open it if it gets too annoying.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Fizbin]

'Funny' you should mention that. I was almost going to sell one of my
Touches. I went as far as packing it up. Even though it was in the
original box, I thought about putting bubble wrap around the unit, but I
came to the conclusion that it would have made things worse, because
there is very little room between the box lid and the touch, so the
bubble wrap would be pressing against the screen.

So, yeah, it's entirely possible.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Mnyb wrote: 
> If it fluctuates between large and small text , that suggest that it
> thinks someone has a finger on the screen :/ wonder if the screen is on
> its last leg
That is what I am afraid of.  I recently moved and although I had the
Touch wrapped in bubble wrap, perhaps there was some pressure against
the screen and it has not totally sprung back out.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Mnyb]

stereoptic wrote: 
> I've replaced the power supply and I am still having issues with the
> touch screen.  It doesn't matter that much to me because I have become
> accustomed to using the remote or a wifi device to control the
> Squeezebox Touch.  
> 
> However, occasionally while using the remote, the display fluctuates
> between the large text associated with using the remote and the small
> 'touch' text.  Then the remote stops working and my only option is to
> unplug and replug.
> 
> Any suggestions?  I am not adverse to opening up the unit and making
> some minor modifications.  Otherwise, I may just replace it with the
> piCore/Jivelite.

If it fluctuates between large and small text , that suggest that it
thinks someone has a finger on the screen :/ wonder if the screen is on
its last leg




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Fizbin]

Oops. I obviously didn't read your post carefully enough. That's a
strange issue. I can see that arising if the unit was dropped but to
just come on all of a sudden is perplexing. The fact that the remote
stops working as well sounds like your Touch has one foot in the grave.
Sometimes I see used ones on ebay, without remotes, go for silly money.
I'd go that route, rather than taking your apart...unless you can
identify the exact issue.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Fizbin wrote: 
> Check out this thread: 
> 
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103192-IR-sensor-ALMOST-dead-any-cure/page3

Thanks for that.   However, the remote works most of the time.  The
Squeezebox Touch screen is mostly unresponsive towards the top upper
left, making it difficult to select the power on/off, or the top line of
any menu.
So, I am thinking that the screen was damaged in some way.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Fizbin]

Check out this thread: 

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103192-IR-sensor-ALMOST-dead-any-cure/page3



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

I've replaced the power supply and I am still having issues with the
touch screen.  It doesn't matter that much to me because I have become
accustomed to using the remote or a wifi device to control the
Squeezebox Touch.  

However, occasionally while using the remote, the display fluctuates
between the large text associated with using the remote and the small
'touch' text.  Then the remote stops working and my only option is to
unplug and replug.

Any suggestions?  I am not adverse to opening up the unit and making
some minor modifications.  Otherwise, I may just replace it with the
piCore/Jivelite.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Mnyb]

Logitechs spare site is really really hard to navigate ? There are more
spares and stuff than you imagine :)




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[pelliott321]

Now that's providing help
thanks



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Peter314 wrote: 
> They are still available from Logitech.
> 
> http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/squeezebox-touch

Wow, thanks for that.  I had searched through the site and couldn't find
it.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

pelliott321 wrote: 
> Somebody must have the original somewhere
> I know John has gone commercial now and understand him trying to protect
> his business but I just want to try this PS out not go into production

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?82648-Linear-Power-Supplies=847577=1#post847577



*Players:* SliMP3,Squeezebox3 x3,Receiver,SqueezePlayer,PiCorePlayer
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N54L
*Plugins:* AutoRescan/BBCiPlayer/PowerSave/PowerSwitchIII/Squeezecloud
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[pelliott321]

cdmackay wrote: 
> No, it's just that John's original link no longer works, and there had
> been a few requests for it. It wasn't hard to find, but I thought I
> would point it out anyway, having just found it myself.

Somebody must have the original somewhere
I know John has gone commercial now and understand him trying to protect
his business but I just want to try this PS out not go into production



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Guy48065]

Well thank you for posting the link. I didn't know the file name and had
no luck with other keywords.

I'm still considering what to use. The original ps burned up, a generic
4A switcher only lasted a month,  now I'm using a little better (I hope)
6A switcher while I decide whether to use a linear supply.



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Samsung phone or tablet + SqueezeCommander, 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[cdmackay]

pelliott321 wrote: 
> What's the deal about this is it some big secret or something.

No, it's just that John's original link no longer works, and there had
been a few requests for it. It wasn't hard to find, but I thought I
would point it out anyway, having just found it myself.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[paulster]

tcutting wrote: 
> I looked at the schematic, and was surprised to see it seemed like
> almost a textbook linear PS.  I think, as you noted, the main difference
> is he does some filtering around the main transformer/rectifier bridge
> to clean-up the voltage presented to the regulator IC.

It's also an exceptionally quiet regulator.  It really is in a league of
its own at the moment.  And the RC filter on the transformer is
important too, to get rid of noise from the transformer itself.

It's just a very solid - if simple - design.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Mnyb]

Guy48065 wrote: 
> Swenson's linear supply is just a basic 3-pin regulator chip?  Is there
> something special about the LT1084 that's a big improvement over a
> LM317-vintage regulator?

Yes . But the thing when he designed this was the primary inductance
"L1" a chunky 10mH thing this makes it a LC filtered supply on the
primary side before the regulator . The supply is not as dirty to the
network as many others .

Wonder if his write up on the design idea is still on this forum ?

Suppose the Touch has a bunch of internal switchers and regulators
anyway .

Point of the exercise is that it's nothing magical with power supplies .
A linear supply can also be dirty to the network just as switch modes
can . This design fixes some of that but the 5 V side could probably
have even better regulators if one wants to make it a project of some
kind .

If it's good enough it's ok regardless of topology switch mode or linear
.

This design is not super expensive . If I got it rigth ?




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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Guy48065]

Swenson's linear supply is just a basic 3-pin regulator chip?  Is there
something special about the LT1084 that's a big improvement over a
LM317-vintage regulator?



Squeezebox Touch
Notebook serving .3T library
Control: 
Samsung phone or tablet + SqueezeCommander, 
Duet remote

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[garym]

pelliott321 wrote: 
> What's the deal about this is it some big secret or something.

no. not a secret or big deal at all. Just a person's schematics for a
linear power supply that may or may not be better than any other
powersupply.  If you're using a TOUCH for example, the likelihood of
improving its audio with a non-stock powersupply is about zero.



*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio
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Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER
*Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[pelliott321]

cdmackay wrote: 
> For those asking for a working link to John's schematic - if you Google
> search for the filename itself - SB_5V.GIF - you should find it, in a CA
> forum post.

What's the deal about this is it some big secret or something.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Peter314]

stereoptic wrote: 
> Any suggestions for a moderately priced (<=$40)  reliable power supply
> for the Squeezebox Touch?  I see a few on ebay and amazon, some claim to
> be original logitech inventory, but I am often wary of that.

They are still available from Logitech.

http://support.logitech.com/en_us/product/squeezebox-touch



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Man in a van]

pelliott321 wrote: 
> Everyone says it's on the web but I can not find it


Try harder;):) post #5





http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/john-swensons-ps-design-25774/



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[pelliott321]

cdmackay wrote: 
> For those asking for a working link to John's schematic - if you Google
> search for the filename itself - SB_5V.GIF - you should find it, in a CA
> forum post.

Everyone says it's on the web but I can not find it



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Covenant wrote: 
> I have one on ebay atm that looks like it will sell cheaply:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121903105072?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
Thanks for that.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Covenant]

stereoptic wrote: 
> Any suggestions for a moderately priced (<=$40)  reliable power supply
> for the Squeezebox Touch?  I see a few on ebay and amazon, some claim to
> be original logitech inventory, but I am often wary of that.

I have one on ebay atm that looks like it will sell cheaply:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121903105072?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[cdmackay]

For those asking for a working link to John's schematic - if you Google
search for the filename itself - SB_5V.GIF - you should find it, in a CA
forum post.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Man in a van wrote: 
> Not linear,
> 
> I use several of these, (a dc barrel converter is required for the
> Touch)
> 
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/desktop-power-supply/7212225/
> 
> This is a good battery if you want one (3amp output)
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tonbux-2mAh-Power-Bank-SmartPhones-Black/dp/B00SKH4J9S/ref=pd_sim_23_1?
Thanks! - I'll take a look at those when I get off from work (uk sites
are restricted for some reason)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Man in a van]

stereoptic wrote: 
> Any suggestions for a moderately priced (<=$40)  reliable power supply
> for the Squeezebox Touch?  I see a few on ebay and amazon, some claim to
> be original logitech inventory, but I am often wary of that.


Not linear,

I use several of these, (a dc barrel converter is required for the
Touch)

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/desktop-power-supply/7212225/



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[stereoptic]

Any suggestions for a moderately priced (<=$40)  reliable power supply
for the Squeezebox Touch?  I see a few on ebay and amazon, some claim to
be original logitech inventory, but I am often wary of that.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

Greg Erskine wrote: 
> Subjectively, I noticed a difference on the analogue side and little
> difference on the digital side.

It is a pity that nobody ever seems to bother verifying the subjective
differences objectively, thus we never really know.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

Julf wrote: 
> You are of course right. Brain fart on my part.

No worries !

I don't want to start a flame war about psu's but a good linear PSU is
by far the closest to "The perfect voltage source"

However difference in sound quality in mixed digital/analogue systems ?
I agree with you and think minimal at best. 

Jeff



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> However difference in sound quality in mixed digital/analogue systems ?
> I agree with you and think minimal at best. 

Indeed - I think we can both agree that there are much more effective
ways to try to improve sound quality. 

Cheers!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

Julf wrote: 
> A linear (shunt) regulator is limited to the series resistance/impedance
> of the transformer secondary, the rectifiers and the shunt element. A
> SMPS isn't. 

So a SMPSU can supply infinite power ? What about the SMPSU's
transformer and rectifier ? 

Julf wrote: 
> You are talking about the noise *generated* by the PSU - I was talking
> about immunity to noise from the powered device (which is why SMPSs are
> especially popular with digital equipment). 

No I'm not.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> Higher peak current is neither type, it depend on the current limiting
> system.

A linear (shunt) regulator is limited to the series resistance/impedance
of the transformer secondary, the rectifiers and the shunt element. A
SMPS isn't. 

> Switch noise is dominant noise in a SMPSU and is oreders of magnitute
> worse than a fairly bog standard linear.

You are talking about the noise *generated* by the PSU - I was talking
about immunity to noise from the powered device (which is why SMPSs are
especially popular with digital equipment).



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> Most linear regulators are SERIES regulators BTW

You are of course right. Brain fart on my part.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Greg Erskine]

Julf wrote: 
> Not sure this thread was worth bringing back - it should really be in
> the "audiophile" section. For anything digital, a well-designed SMPS is
> a much better solution than a linear supply.

Hi Julf,

What does "much better solution" actually mean?

regards
Greg



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Julf]

Greg Erskine wrote: 
> What does "much better solution" actually mean?

Lower internal resistance, higher peak current capability, much better
suppression of HF noise, better regulation, higher efficiency, smaller
size, lower weight.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt
edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

Greg Erskine wrote: 
> I should mention that I use the standard PSUs on all my Squeeze devices.
> When experimenting with other supplies I never found anything
> significantly better to make it worthwhile changing.
> 
> Subjectively, I found using an old XT PSU sounded different, IMO better,
> but ugly and inconvenient and not worth pursuing.
> 
> regards
> Greg

I'm using a Meanwell RS-15-5 to power my Pi2/HifiBerryDAC+, I would have
liked a linear psu for the analogue side of the DAC but was too
complicated for the percieved benefit.

You can design a PSU to have the impeadence of a few inches of pcb track
but you have to get it to the powered unit which makes it pointless.
Add to the the onboard regulator and it fait accompli !

I've never really tried blind listening but my systems sound great to me
!

Jeff



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Greg Erskine]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> I'm using a Meanwell RS-15-5 to power my Pi2/HifiBerryDAC+, I would have
> liked a linear psu for the analogue side of the DAC but was too
> complicated for the percieved benefit.
> 
> You can design a PSU to have the impeadence of a few inches of pcb track
> but you have to get it to the powered unit which makes it pointless.
> Add to the the onboard regulator and it fait accompli !
> 
> I've never really tried blind listening but my systems sound great to me
> !
> 
> Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I use these things on my DIY DACs. Subjectively, I noticed a difference
on the analogue side and little difference on the digital side.

http://users.tpg.com.au/gerskine/greg/jlh%20add-on%20shunt%20regulator.htm

The guy I design these PCBs for uses them everywhere in his DIY system,
probably a dozen or more of them, and his system sounds wonderful to my
cloth ears.

There are hundreds of these out there powering DACs, pre AMPs, AMPs, USB
power, HD and SSD power. While I can't understand why, people seem to
like them.

regards
Greg



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[pelliott321]

The link on page 4 for the schematic for John's design no longer works 
does anyone still have it or know how to get in touch with John



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Jeff07971]

Julf wrote: 
> Lower internal resistance, higher peak current capability, much better
> suppression of HF noise, better regulation, higher efficiency, smaller
> size, lower weight.

Whilst I would agree with you that a SMPSU for a SB is as good as is
needed, of the 7 things you say that the SMPSU is better only 3 are
correct.

A linear regulator will in general have better (Lower) internal
impeadence due to the fact that the feedback bandwidth of linear
regulators is generally higher that in a SM. SMPSU are limited in (real)
bandwidth to the swiching frequency. A linear can be many MHz

Higher peak current is neither type, it depend on the current limiting
system.

Switch noise is dominant noise in a SMPSU and is oreders of magnitute
worse than a fairly bog standard linear.

Regulation is down to feedback bandwidth, linears win hands down.

higher efficiency, smaller size, lower weight SMPSU wins most of the
time.

The best solution would be a SMPSU followed by a Linear, giving the low
noise etc of a linear with most of the advantages of a SMPSU.


However theres still the regulator in the SB/Pi, In the Pi its a SM not
sure about the SB's


Jeff



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Greg Erskine]

Jeff07971 wrote: 
> Whilst I would agree with you that a SMPSU for a SB is as good as is
> needed.

I should mention that I use the standard PSUs on all my Squeeze devices.
When experimenting with other supplies I never found anything
significantly better to make it worthwhile changing.

Subjectively, I found using an old XT PSU sounded different, IMO better,
but ugly and inconvenient and not worth pursuing.

regards
Greg



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Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Linear Power Supplies

[Mnyb]

Yes the squeezeboxes have several onboard small smps regulators the 5v
is not enough for all its circuits .

Anyone having THD + noise measurement out of the analog output of
squeezebox with the original psu vs an aftermarket unit ?
That's exactly what we want to see . And afaik no one has provided that
everyone's just assumes that aftermarket psu is so much better due to
the usual testimonials and sighted testing ( as the information content
of a testimonial on a audiophile site is 0 , the amount of positive
testimonials does not matter 0*x=0)

But most audiophiles uses the digital output to a DAC anyway ?

Johns supply design actually addresses another issue noise leaking back
to the AC mains , here both kinds of supply can be really bad . And some
amps and stuff can pick this up .

Getting rid of the classical diode bridge and transformer can't be bad .
The switchmode way to rectify is way faster if you followed that by some
good very fast regulators that can't be bad . But they got bad rep .

Also the compete design is a factor . My Meridian gear is full of smps
supplies to no ill effect . The exception is the power amps in the
active speakers .( and Meridian does not design the smps in house they
are bougth )

The "big expensive power supply " is alway better is yet another
audiophile myth .

There is such a thing as good enough supply for the intended use case .
If the circuits don't need more current and the noise suppression in the
design is good enough . Ou will reach a point where nominally better
supplies actually does not improve the product anymore ( except in
sighted listening tests ) .

Yes I do have an aftermarket supply ;) ( it's in my signature ,bougth it
in my more audiophile days ).

As I remeber slimdevices did deliver a rather crummy 230v supply to the
SB3 that unit was not up to any moder spec . Logitech later changed that
and the late SB3 aka classic where delivered with the same supply as
Touch which is a better speced compliant unit .

There is a reason PSU is a commodity that is bougth for outside
suppliers . It does not effect product performance that much , it's not
rocket science and reduces cost .

What do you make of NAIM's whole MO ;) that brand lives by selling
expensive boxes with outboard psu in more expensive boxes




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