Re: [U2] Epicor and Eclipse
The end of the world is nigh as well -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wols Lists Sent: 11 July 2011 22:56 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Epicor and Eclipse On 08/07/11 22:53, Mecki Foerthmann wrote: Microsoft isn't struggling and they license Sharepoint only for named users and still sell it! Are you sure :-) (MS isn;t struggling, that is ...) They've had several very high profile reverses lately. The obvious example to me is the London Stock Exchange, where their system failed publicly and dramatically, and has been replaced by a new system that is both faster and cheaper. I can't name any more examples off the top of my head, but I know there have been a fair few. I'm seeing a bunch of reports that their behaviour is typical for a company spiralling into Chapter 11 - some estimates are as close as 2012! They're up against serious competition from Apple and Linux now - for the first time in many years they're actually having to compete, and compete hard. And although they look profitable, they have long had a reputation for massaging the figures. Except now it looks like the figures are coming home to roost. And their big problem is the mismatch between where the expenses are incurred and the income is made. From what I can tell, the American operation is running at a loss, but overseas operations are profitable. The problem is that overseas operations are in tax havens, so while it looks like they're making more than they're spending, the money is not in the right place. And as soon as they repatriate the money, they will incur tax liabilities that will drive them into the red. In other words - America is not profitable. Bankruptcy is inevitable if they don't repatriate profits. But if they do repatriate profits, Uncle Sam will want his cut, which they can't afford, so bankruptcy is inevitable... If you want to trust Microsoft and rely on them, fine. But what's the saying? trust, but verify? What will you do if MS's activation servers go down, and Windows et al stops working? Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1516/3758 - Release Date: 07/11/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] Interesting article
Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-warns-databas e-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Symeon: I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) Bill - Original Message - *From:* syme...@gmail.com *To:* 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/12/2011 1:31 AM *Subject:* [U2] Interesting article Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-warns-databas e-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.comwrote: From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. Not all non-Pick people know this either, but in both cases, some do. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. Not all of us need to speak all of the same language, but, yes, we do need to have MV folks who speak the language. I have not found that to be a big problem to date (I work with a different vendor now, but I'm guessing there are folks working for U2 who are up to date on this too). As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. Yes, many of us have been suggestion (for more than a year and a half at least) that we should position ourselves (MV) to jump under this larger umbrella NoSQL (Not only SQL or yes-no-sql or in some cases No SQL). The MV products are some of the only ones in this arena that are proven. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. Any clues on how to get any standard that all MV vendors would deploy? I'm thinking this would require third-party software and, even then, the vendors might have better solutions for anyone not needing a cross-MV-platform solution (most users of MV systems do not require such). (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Yeah, I don't see it going that route. I do think we could possibly pop up a bit more into the NoSQL playground as an industry. The name is a tad bit unfortunate, but the idea is a good one. --dawn Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] [UV] ODBC
UniVerse 10.2 HP-UX11.31 I have noticed that when I run HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO that the process ignores any table that was created by uvsql on my HP system. I also have a (separate) server running Windows 2008 R2 from which I have my EDI translator. I set up the UV odbc driver on that server and it works fine. However when I try to see/connect to one of my UniVerse sql tables, it can not be seen - because it was not updated by HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO. I guess my question is, which Rocket was unable to answer, why is HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO ignoring these tables and is there a way for it not to ? Barry Rogen Senior Programmer/Analyst PNY Technologies, Inc. (973) 560-5327 bro...@pny.commailto:bro...@pny.com We are continually faced with great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems. John W Gardner [http://thinkbeforeprinting.org/struct/signature-1.gif] ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] [UV] ODBC
I have had luck with... LOGTO HS.ADMIN HSADMIN Scrub Yesterday I had a little problem with a field not showing up. I just added this field to @SELECT in the dictionary for that file and my ODBC app, ColdFusion, was then able to see it. HTH. --Bill -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Barry Rogen Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 4:20 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] [UV] ODBC UniVerse 10.2 HP-UX11.31 I have noticed that when I run HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO that the process ignores any table that was created by uvsql on my HP system. I also have a (separate) server running Windows 2008 R2 from which I have my EDI translator. I set up the UV odbc driver on that server and it works fine. However when I try to see/connect to one of my UniVerse sql tables, it can not be seen - because it was not updated by HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO. I guess my question is, which Rocket was unable to answer, why is HS.UPDATE.FILEINFO ignoring these tables and is there a way for it not to ? Barry Rogen Senior Programmer/Analyst PNY Technologies, Inc. (973) 560-5327 bro...@pny.commailto:bro...@pny.com We are continually faced with great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems. John W Gardner [http://thinkbeforeprinting.org/struct/signature-1.gif] ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Mongo DB is Web Scale Warning: Contains occasional course language. http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6995033/mongo-db-is-web-scale -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:24 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
There's a lot of generalizations being made in that article. In my experience with MySQL, it's just not as good as other production-grade SQL alternatives like Microsoft SQL Server, PostgreSQL, or Oracle. I'd classify this a MySQL + big data problem before I'd call it a SQL-as-a-whole + big data problem. It could also be that Facebook's architecture sucks, or they have built up a lot of technical debt in the process of scaling so fast and hiring an army of engineers. I mean, StackOverlow serves 800 HTTP request **per second* */ 95 million page views per month with *2 (yes two) *SQL Server machines. Also, saying that relational databases are a thing of the past pretty ridiculous. Most of the problems we're trying to solve fit the relational model very well. I think you'll find that most people are using NoSQL databases for caches, queuing, etc. I don't get the corollary to MV databases, because I think that'd be the last tool I'd pick for scaling a site like Facebook, but have to agree with the point that if the MV vendors want to ride on the NoSQL wave there has to be better APIs. I looked into creating a Ruby adapter for UniData. After about an hour I wanted to kill myself. And even if the APIs get better, why would anyone pick something like U2, which is expensive, closed source, and has a tiny ecosystem versus any of the dozens of free, open source, popular alternatives? I can't think of anything that U2 would bring to the table over MongoDB, Redis, et. al. I apologize for sounding so negative -- I'm actually rooting for MV databases. I just believe that the MV vendors are still focusing on serving the customers who are locked in and ignoring what's happening everywhere else. -Rob On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Daniel McGrath dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com wrote: Mongo DB is Web Scale Warning: Contains occasional course language. http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6995033/mongo-db-is-web-scale -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:24 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's quote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3760 - Release Date: 07/12/11
Re: [U2] Interesting article
G-Man: The problem I have with this kind of thing is that it seems that IT controls the concept, not the other way around. Data is data, no matter where it is. One just needs to get it when needed. All throughout the relational world, its the technology that controls the data, not the other way around. I couldn't give a hoot about a distributed, cloud-based MV environment, but, as Mark Brown always says, when you need the data you simply have to get it. You don't need to navigate through customized classes, through checkboxes, out dropdown lists, over sockets, through firewalls, around networks, past bosses then back again...maybe! :-) Again, as we've discussed over the past many years, the licensing schemes offered by MV environments won't allow any of us to jump into the fray of these opportunities. Could you imagine going to U2 with a Facebook killer for multiple devices on a hundred servers and think you could negotiate to pay somewhere close to MySQL? They'd try to squeeze you for 100 licenses on each machine and make darned sure you'd give up on that idea, very quickly! Bill - Original Message - *From:* 3xk547...@sneakemail.com *To:* u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org *Date:* 7/12/2011 12:46 PM *Subject:* Re: [U2] Interesting article From: Bill Haskett I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database gurus? :-) I get the humor but... I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of shards for distributed storage and computing. So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV. We're not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world. As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno From:Symeon Breen Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom'squote old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing and needs to be sent to the home for retired software. After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web, mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases are accessed. http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/facebook-needs-major-rewrite-w arns-database-guru-33864 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
Hi Bill There are some options for alternative licensing. Rocket will not stay in business giving away licenses, but they are also not silly in turning away business because of licensing structure. We as a user group need to put a business case to licensing. There are subscription models we could put up, there are cloud based models. We need to talk to Rocket about the options we need. The user group gives an opportunity to show that these are not the wishes of an individual, but the wishes of a community. David Jordan ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
David, You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but Rocket has to be proactive, too. Surely they have a few analysts on staff that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves where developers are headed. It's probably not wise to only listen to *current *U2 users anyway. I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for free...right now. If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast release cycles, and great (free) developer tools. Can anyone else think of one? -Rob The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
From: Symeon Breen Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB That's a great mainstream solution but it doesn't address the primary concern for anyone in this forum: How do I make that work with my U2 environment? The answer is, you don't, you write a completely separate solution in Mongo and use your U2 system for other purposes. That doesn't help this group. While I can get a Mongo stored procedure to ultimately call BASIC code to process a request, the code to do that is really ugly. Same goes for calling BASIC from a stored proc from any other DB. With that sort of topology, all we're doing is using the MV BASIC engine to process data from another source, and that's not using the power we have available. The challenge for this community would be: How do we use U2 to provide the services which prompted the creation of MongoDB in the first place? People had a need. Other people solved that need. Why didn't this community offer offer similar solutions? My answer to that is that the DBMS companies in this market are still fixated with trying to get the most of the per-seat licensing model, and trying to get business from one another. They're oblivious to the needs of the larger worldwide user/developer base that would rather write tools from scratch than to struggle to find information about this Pick thing that we use. That's a business and marketing issue. It's not technical. When our DBMS vendors look to new audiences, their engineers will start working to solve problems that everyone is having, not just problems that are expressed in this group. Solutions to those problems will make these products mainstream, lower our costs, and help to insure a better future for everyone here. As if... T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
On 7/12/2011 4:06 PM, Dawn Wolthuis wrote: [chop] As to old SQL, there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering if other MV people have seen this: Look at the data storage for Android, Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc. All of these platforms and others are using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not using SQL. Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry applications. Yes, many of us have been suggestion (for more than a year and a half at least) that we should position ourselves (MV) to jump under this larger umbrella NoSQL (Not only SQL or yes-no-sql or in some cases No SQL). The MV products are some of the only ones in this arena that are proven. The problem goes way below the non-adoption of the NoSQL movement. It's a consistent stale state of emerging and adopting technology. Most of this is driven by shrinking customer bases and therefore a lack of revenue to justify seemingly unjustifiable new development that can incorporate the _required_ technologies. Look how long it took to get industry-wide HTTP support in MV. It should have _never_ taken that long to get enterprise stability in the web world. .NET is just now catching on as a major investment for development framework? While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client. Any clues on how to get any standard that all MV vendors would deploy? I'm thinking this would require third-party software and, even then, the vendors might have better solutions for anyone not needing a cross-MV-platform solution (most users of MV systems do not require such). Been there, done that and saw no interest. It will take code soldiers willing to consistently rush the lines and bash down the doors at all of the DB vendors until they realize that we aren't going to stop until we get what we want. Before that happens, though, there has to be an adopted RFC to define how the comm happens and gives granular detail that can not be misinterpreted by anyone implementing it. Once that is done, it's a matter of building wrappers and interfaces for all of the popular languages. Want the unfinished scrap of an MV ASCII protocol RFC I started back in 2002? More importantly are there more than 3 developers out there willing to suit up and then actually spend time building a language hook? (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most MV platforms.) From there, professionals in this community can position as experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC, hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just starting to learn. Yeah... as if... Yeah, I don't see it going that route. I do think we could possibly pop up a bit more into the NoSQL playground as an industry. The name is a tad bit unfortunate, but the idea is a good one. --dawn GlenB ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
I don't know if I buy the arguments against open source for what we're talking about. We're not talking about a college kid's weekend project on Github. MySQL has Oracle behind it and its the most popular database in the world. Something tells me its not going away. MongoDB has enterprise support from it's corporate entity, 10gen, which is venture backed. Why wouldn't you be able to security patch an open source project? That's the beauty of it -- you can always fork it and patch it, even if the maintainer does't accept your patch. I've been in situations with U2 specifically where I couldn't get them to plug a security hole in a timely fashion and there was absolutely no way I could mitigate the problem. I'll give you a half-a-point on the hackability point :-). But how do you think most of the major banks get away with running Linux and Apache on their servers? -Rob On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:21 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Hi Rob Open source has its advantages, but there is the reverse side. I need to know that it has ongoing support if I commit a package on it, I have seen too many people get into trouble when an open source application is no longer supported. Organisations have not been able to apply security patches because their free application cannot support the security patch. There is also the question of security, is open source easier to hack, is it easier to put in back doors. My clients want to know what happens if I get hit by the proverbial bus, I need to justify continuity to them and the open source environment does not provide that continuity. I am not going to be able to put an application into the London Stock exchange based on open source, they could not justify to their board, risk managers and regulators. The cost of supporting open source is sometimes greater than paid for applications. The question to ensure, does U2 provide a value add to my development. Regards David Jordan -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2011 11:41 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article David, You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but Rocket has to be proactive, too. Surely they have a few analysts on staff that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves where developers are headed. It's probably not wise to only listen to *current *U2 users anyway. I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for free...right now. If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast release cycles, and great (free) developer tools. Can anyone else think of one? -Rob The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan da...@dacono.com.au wrote: Rob your comments are not wrong. However U2 management want to go where they think the market is. As users we don't tell them anything and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction we want to go. As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set direction. Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority. I have sat down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with them to look at its feasibility. Others are looking at REST and a range of other APIs. Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively. What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive. If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say. David Jordan VP U2UG ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Interesting article
David, I appreciate the tone and the messages that you present here. You're right that there are appropriate approaches and vectors to product management and development. I submit however that these forums are not merely suited for community self-help, but they can and should serve as a conduit of information and ideas between Rocket and its user/developer base. _This_ is where the more active community hangs out, so _this_ is one place amongst others where Rocket should take its place as a leader and as a partner. If they choose not to use this medium to discuss market needs, so be it. If they're discussing APIs and cloud implementations with U2UG, great. From my not-so-isolated perspective, if I don't see them doing anything in these areas, then I don't think it's unreasonable for me or others to assume they're not really doing much in these areas. Most companies talk it up when they're doing something productive rather than allowing their user base to assume otherwise. Communicate here or somewhere else, but communicate something, somewhere. Just sayin... T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
