005000
001 Monkey
002 Cock
003 Dog
004 Boar
005 Rat
006 Ox
007 Tiger
008 Rabbit
009 Dragon
010 Snake
011 Horse
012 Sheep
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+1 Convert.
Here is a strange one - i have a friend with a uv system that he cannot
maintain - so he has asked me to do this. It needs transferring to a new
machine and some changes making and maintained over the coming years.
However my team has worked exclusively in ud for 10 years, so uv is
I tried to again go to the download link for the Universe PE. It lets me
fill out the registration form, but then nothing downloads, I just get an
email saying someone will contact me
What's up?
Will Johnson
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In a message dated 5/20/2011 7:04:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dave...@gmail.com writes:
[ad]
We built a middle-ware connection using open source JavaPHP bridge after
seeing Kevin do this hodge podge connection scheme using a COM UniObject
at
a CMUG meeting in Denver in 2009. Our
In a message dated 5/19/2011 9:43:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dmc...@imb.com.au writes:
Have you seen the PHP PDO driver article on u2devzone.com? Although it
is a 'build it yourself article', it does come with the source code so
you should be able to just compile and use it.
Head + Wall
LDR_CNTRL has to do with the settings for your temporary work space (as we used
to call it)
How much space to allocate for your process' heap and so on.
Can you give a full PHP script showing how you got around this?
I mean the entire script, just post it into the board here.
If they don't consume a seat, doesn't that also mean that they don't lock the
program while editing it?
If so, how do they work well in a multi-programmer environment?
Again, at least these editors mentioned before don't require a telnet
session, use UniObjects to access data from U2, and
In a message dated 5/4/2011 12:47:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
I doubt you'll ever believe me, until Rocket send you your branded
skateboard that is!
That's right George. I like action :)
At least IBM called me *once* to see if I wanted to renew my
In a message dated 5/4/2011 6:50:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
da...@dacono.com.au writes:
Often they are training those people to write U2 code rather than hiring
pure U2 people.
That is simply excellent for the future of U2 programmers.
Train people to write really awful code with little
We'll all believe you, when they are published.
What's the link again?
In a message dated 5/3/2011 4:21:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
How a product that is growing can simultaneously be dying is a bit of a
mystery. Sitting here with last quarter's
In a message dated 4/28/2011 5:07:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
The vendors of canned packages out there ought to develop a GUI/web
interface to keep their package appealing to those that don't care/understand
the db behind it. In a tight race, bells
In a message dated 4/28/2011 6:41:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bi...@hkmetalcraft.com writes:
The UniVerse revolves around the center of the UniVerse which is of
course... Adobe Flash.
I can only believe this is said in jest.
When my clients ask about Flash I shudder. Flash is the worst
In a message dated 4/28/2011 9:07:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jscha...@gmail.com writes:
Not germane to my argument Will. There are not 2 virtually identical
languages called COBOLVERSE and COBOLDATA.
Yes my argument is extensible.
Why does Cobol still exist? Because there are still
In a message dated 4/28/2011 10:44:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bi...@hkmetalcraft.com writes:
No... I am serious. Flex is where it is at and where it is going. We
are all going to be rich.
I'm hiring a dozen monkeys so I can be at the forefront of this new world.
Speaking of editors, why did UD/UV not ever adopt John's JET product ?
It was at least a decade ahead, in terms of full screen editing.
BTW I hardly ever use ED to edit programs, Brian's mv-developer is so
much better.
It would be great if UD would come with a decent editor out of the box,
In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a
canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI
interface with SB leaves things to be
But you're ignoring the issue that if management goes to a more familiar
interface, their business goes bankrupt because it the familiar interface
doesn't actually help them run their business and in fact prevents them
from running their business.
The vendor who wins is the one who impacts
Cobol still exists also.
Oh you're on Unidata... well we're discontinuing that product in 2002.
In a message dated 4/27/2011 12:40:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jscha...@gmail.com writes:
I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is
unbelievable considering they
In a message dated 4/15/2011 5:43:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
u...@edclark.net writes:
But then we decided we wanted to upgrade the universe system and have all
our accounting users on that. Just about everything else was ok, but it
took the var 3 months of work to convert the procs to
You're speaking about technical specifications, not the freakin database :)
Apples and oranges.
If Google tried to stop an ex-employee for declaring that they use PHP,
they'd be laughed off the planet.
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In a message dated 4/12/2011 10:25:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ropor...@ochsner.org writes:
PHP isn't a database... apples and oranges.
It's the same point. The point you're skirting :)
The specifications of a particular implementation, are not the same thing
as just the fact of the
In a message dated 4/12/2011 10:45:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ropor...@ochsner.org writes:
Not skirting anything. The 1st line of my 1st reply ... consider
everything inside the DC proprietary and confidential. You ignored that
line
apparently and decided to focus instead on the
Apples and oranges.
No ISP will shut down a site for merely publishing the names of companies
using a particular technology.
Publishing names is not the same thing as publishing security
vulnerabilities, whatever that means.
Will Johnson
In a message dated 4/10/2011 7:25:00 P.M.
I knew you were talking about me.
I do not accept your claim that this decision is up to the company however.
Any former employee can certainly state what technology a company used, and
there is no legitimate contract which could preclude it. Would some companies
wish to try to stop their past
Make certain that no one has decided that that server needs periodic virus
scan checks. The database is seen as one very large file, and each change
to it triggers the I've changed flag which triggers virus scanning.
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In a message dated 4/7/2011 5:51:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
br...@brianleach.co.uk writes:
In addition to the two excellent editors (Doug's and Charlie's) already
mentioned - you can download my free screen editor (Z) and my free Windows
based editor (mvDeveloper) from my website ...
Be
In a message dated 4/7/2011 12:15:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
syme...@gmail.com writes:
Unlimited ftp space - fantastic ;)
See how you are.
I have unlimited server space in the cloud. At least, after loading up
umpteen gigs of data they've never told me to stop. And when I signed up for
In a message dated 4/7/2011 12:17:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
syme...@gmail.com writes:
Now thats what you call targeting advertising - google knows everything
that
you are doing 24x7 !!
That's funny but not. I was playing with my notepad and some program
turned on my cam when I
In a message dated 4/7/2011 8:32:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ggal...@wyanokegroup.com writes:
That's why I have duck tape over my built in camera on my laptop.
I hate camera's that don't have a manual lens cover. You never know
when one of those spyware programs will activate the camera
There's always one in every crowd
I guess the brianleach.co.uk part of the email addr wasn't the first place
you looked? :) :)
-Original Message-
From: Ron Walenciak r...@sdg-nj.com
To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Thu, Apr 7, 2011 12:19 pm
Subject:
My wager is pre-OA system. A true Pick R83 that some small
manufacturing shop has had running for 20 years. I'll put two bucks on it!
Will
In a message dated 4/7/2011 2:44:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
r...@sdg-nj.com writes:
I've known Joe since the 90's and he does know what
Flame on Johnny Storm.
I think Tony you're missing the Pick calling card which is the application.
If you have a Pizza shop and are running um... Pizza Warrior 3.5 or whatever
and it's crappy
And I show you Pizza Hero 6.5 (which just happens to run in Universe) and you
think it's super duper.
My response Tony was related to your paragraph:
But I don't see any compelling reasons to choose this platform over any
other these days.
Perhaps you meant any other MV Platform. But I read it as ANY other platform.
-Original Message-
From: Tony Gravagno
Joe this is Will Johnson, you said that someone named Ivan would call me today.
But no one has called me yet.
831 477 7125
-Original Message-
From: Joseph Chelston j...@bsgstaffing.com
To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Wed, Apr 6, 2011 9:58 am
Subject:
Uh... um... *gazes blankly at the wall trying to find an excuse*
-Original Message-
From: fft2001 fft2...@aol.com
To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Wed, Apr 6, 2011 2:00 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] PICK Systems Administrator position
Joe this is Will Johnson, you said
In a message dated 4/6/2011 7:06:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cwn...@comcast.net writes:
Are you volunteering to put it all together where
everyone can get to it? I can try to get it all together, but happily,
I've been pretty busy lately, so I'm not sure when. I won't be able to
provide
Personally I think it's probably a smallish shop running some older version
(I myself just encountered another MvBase believe it or don't). I wouldn't
think Avante would be looking just for a Pick systems administrator,
could be wrong.
Probably the secrecy is due to the highly competitive
Funny as heck. I started writing up a few brief notes on this thread, and
immediately Epicor popped up as an Adsense advertiser in my margin.
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In a message dated 4/5/2011 9:26:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cwn...@comcast.net writes:
The main reason I won't change is because I
use my own editor which started life 27 years ago. It does everything I
want it to, and if I need something new, I just add it. Heck, it can
even make
In a message dated 3/30/2011 11:03:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
d...@chancofamily.com writes:
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that know binary and
those that do not. Along the same lines there are those who know java and
those who want to learn java ..
You mean
I don't believe that it's the user who *sees* the message that is the cause.
Rather it's the last user who left the strands dangling.
Dubya
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to point to the
user that is causing the problems.
FFT2001 wrote:
I don't believe that it's the user who *sees* the message that is the
cause. Rather it's the last user who left the strands dangling.
Dubya
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What is the advantage of cURL over wGET for invoking HTTP queries ?
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In a message dated
Hi
There is a requirement to mask some of the fields across all tables in the
database.
Can someone help me on how to go about it, programatically, as I am a
novice
to programming?
GG
Um... can you give some specific clear examples?
Mask SOME of the fields
In a message dated 3/25/2011 12:00:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes:
You can assume that people who get their hands on a PDF will not
share it, and every copy distributed will yield an equitable
return. I wouldn't bet on this either.
Yes I know this part. It
Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote:
To solve this problem of books in the MV
market, years ago I suggested that in the MV community we could
use a wiki as a framework for writing new books, with a Table of
Contents to define the content, and guest authors to contribute
content on
In a message dated 3/24/2011 8:46:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bi...@hkmetalcraft.com writes:
While you are at it, why not write a book (in color) and have O'Reilly
publish it.
Which brings up an interesting point.
Why were there so many books on Pick published in the 80s, up until about
Talk about painting yourself into a corner.
How many VARS did ScreenPro ever convince... twelve? OK maybe thirteen
I wish tools like The Programmer's Helper, which actually created source code,
would have been more successful.
When I have to learn yet another tool that encapsulates the user
I'm sure there's a market for someone to write an MV BASIC cheatsheet and sell
it online for two bucks.
All you need is a thousand people to buy it a year !
-Original Message-
From: Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com
To: u2-users u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Thu,
Susan, Charles McMurray is in fact a company that uses Pick
http://knol.google.com/k/will-johnson/companies-that-use-pick/4hmquk6fx4gu/549
My take was just that he was saying that everyone in Pick is old, covered with
cobwebs and there's no admittance :)
-Original
Wouldn't a cheatsheet for MV Basic be kinda big?
Or would you leave out those things which to us seem obvious, like = means
is equal to in a logical statement, or it means Assign.
+ means add, : means concatenate
Concatenate is a four-syllable word however, so that might be a problem.
In a message dated 3/21/2011 3:43:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
da...@dacono.com.au writes:
First Fft2001 Can we have your name. How do we know that you are not
someone from a competitor like Oracle trying to make Rocket look bad.
Secondly the focus on money is pointless. We don't need
In a message dated 3/21/2011 4:53:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
No, this whole thing has got well beyond tedious now, if you haven't got
the
point yet that Rocket spend money on U2UG rather than give money to it -
and
that the board want is this way -
In a message dated 3/21/2011 6:13:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
da...@dacono.com.au writes:
Members particularly new members don't know if Will is working for jBase
or Intersystems or other competitors, so being upfront with who you are
clears the air for everyone in discussions and
Then George correct my factual incorrectness by telling us what money Rocket
is providing for U2UG ?
You're saying that my claim that they aren't providing any is factually
incorrect.
-Original Message-
From: George Land george.l...@aptsolutions.co.uk
To: U2 Users List
In a message dated 3/20/2011 11:18:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
antli...@youngman.org.uk writes:
I repeat. You yourself said that you weren't telling other people what
to do. Then PLEASE DON'T!
Please STOP TELLING ROCKET TO GIVE MONEY TO U2UG.
Please STOP TELLING U2UG TO SPEND THE
In a message dated 3/20/2011 11:43:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dw...@tincat-group.com writes:
Would any good come from expanding to become the MVUG? Even when I
write that, I think it is likely a bad idea, given that Spectrum could
fill that role instead, perhaps (but Spectrum is a for
In a message dated 3/18/2011 4:27:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
antli...@youngman.org.uk writes:
On 18/03/11 22:48, fft2...@aol.com wrote:
The element that says you... you... some personality trait you are
perverse you have an axe to grind.
That's ad hominem. If you have an issue
In a message dated 3/19/2011 1:46:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Outreach: fft2...@aol.com seems to think that this is what the user group
is
about 'Outreach. Outreach. and Outreach.' The current board (and the
last
one) would probably disagree
In a message dated 3/18/2011 4:24:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
A big part of the reason is that the user group is not a properly
constituted organisation in the sense of being a corporation or other
legal
entity that can hold money. Whilst
In a message dated 3/18/2011 10:23:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Speaking as a member of the U2 user group board I think I represent the
views of the whole board when I say that we have no issues whatsoever with
the support that we receive from Rocket.
In a message dated 3/18/2011 1:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Are you being deliberately perverse or do you have some axe to grind with
Rocket?
Yes be sure to throw an ad hominem attack in there to try to convince the
reading audience not to listen.
In a message dated 3/18/2011 3:34:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
On 18/03/2011 21:49, fft2...@aol.com fft2...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 3/18/2011 1:02:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Are you being
In a message dated 3/17/2011 11:08:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cstew...@tri-sysconsulting.com writes:
There are two reasons why we haven't publicized everyone in our database.
# 1, We have to respect the Users privacy and confidentiality, not
just end-users, but vendors as well. As a
In a message dated 3/17/2011 3:04:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
p...@gnosys.co.nz writes:
Worth a try but no unfortunately the ENVIRONMENT variable set in the uvsh
shell is lost when returning to the linux/unix shell which invoked the
uvsh.
I like the output to a log solution.
Did you
In a message dated 3/17/2011 9:57:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes:
There is simply not enough reward for individuals in this
market for user group members to champion the MV platform to a
wide audience of relational
I have to agree with Tony on this. It takes
In a message dated 3/15/2011 5:17:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ro...@stamina.com.au writes:
I mean, it is
good for Tri-Sys, as they will generate a list of end users to solicit,
but I'd suggest it is unlikely that a VAR is going to make his customer
list public ...
Ross I think you're
In a message dated 3/16/2011 1:10:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.l...@aptsolutions.net writes:
Firstly the overwhelming majority of U2 end user sites do not have
technical
staff, even if they have an IT department that department knows nothing
about U2 whatsoever. They run an
In a message dated 3/15/2011 5:10:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
br...@brianleach.co.uk writes:
Plus of course, since we don't charge
fees, we don't have any budget to advertise our presence!
Why isn't Rocket themselves giving a budget?
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If as one person remarked, he is the only one in a sea of twenty multi-value
employees who knows about U2UG or is a member, than I would humbly suggest that
it doesn't.
In the vast majority of the multi-value environments in which I've worked in my
*cough twenty six cough* years in Pick,
The original poster mentioned hard earned cash, is this offering
soliciting money for something? And if so, for what?
W
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In a message dated 3/7/2011 1:24:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
syme...@gmail.com writes:
Therefore i
suggest we agree on the highest common denominator which is so long as
code
is efficient then it does not matter how complex it looks at first glance
and therefore such discussion of if x
No assumption.
You are masking the very issue by merely saying condition when it was a NOT
condition :)
-Original Message-
From: Rex Gozar rgo...@gmail.com
To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Fri, Mar 4, 2011 6:09 am
Subject: Re: [U2] Is this worth
And then they (the anonymous they) came out with a version that allowed the
source to be unlimited while still limiting the object to 32K
Which made the whole world scratch their head.
-Original Message-
From: Charlie Noah cwn...@comcast.net
To: U2 Users List
The point is, why make a construct which is harder to understand, when it
takes the exact same amount of effort to make one which is easier to
understand? Answer that one Symeon?
Why deliberately obfuscate ?
-Original Message-
From: Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com
To:
Ron is right that the OPEN, and READ did not originally support the THEN
clause, just the ELSE.
Speaking of Microdata, Ultimate and R83 versions.
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In a message dated 3/2/2011 9:12:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
martinphill...@ladybridge.com writes:
Incidentally, and at the risk of starting a new war on style, this is a
great example of why developers should use equate tokens with meaningful
names rather than numbers for field
In a message dated
IF PARMS(7)102,CM#'' THEN CUMO(M)=CUMO(M)+PARMS(7)102,CM
ELSE
CUMO(M)=CUMO(M)+PARMS(12)134,CM
END
Just as a follow up, IF Not Not, is very bad style. And parsing long and
then short is as well.
This part should have been
Let me clarify.
The problem in my mind is not with the IF X # '' THEN
It's with the ELSE portion, which in effect *means* IF X # (# '')
The Else clause is essentially executed on a Not Not condition. That adds
unnecessary confusion for the next programmer.
W
-Original
Dave you are correct when referring to dynamic arrays, the 101 type entries
in your code.
In general, outside of the REMOVE type operations, references like that, must
start at field 1 and walk the array until it gets to field 101, reading every
character between. Which is why, in general,
Yes. Your aligned multivalues are also referred to as dependent-controlling
sets.
You have one attribute controlling the placements of the values for the others.
Nasty buggers, always bite. You have to grab them right behind the ears.
-Original Message-
From: Steve Romanow
The parens are redundant since concat is a higher precedence than Not
Also how about
If YAM:AMY:MYA IS NOT(NULL) THEN
more intuitive :)~~
In a message dated 3/2/2011 4:54:51 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
brian.whiteh...@pentanasolutions.com writes:
011: IF (YAM : AMY : MYA) # ''
You my friend get the micro-management award for this thread.
In a message dated 3/2/2011 9:24:18 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
dmc...@imb.com.au writes:
Actually, (at least in UniData) it is a performance improvement :). It
has to do with how BASIC compiles the code into the object file
on this? We're using
Unidata 7.1.
A list of all known published books on Pick / Universe / Unidata is at the
below link
http://knol.google.com/k/fft2001/books-on-the-pick-operating-system/mbasj7lz
royk/32
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Short, hard to misspell, unique, and not likely to be confused with
something gross or stupid.
In a message dated 2/20/2011 7:00:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
slestak...@gmail.com writes:
I am not in marketing by any means, but isnt the chore for branding
to make something that sticks
In a message dated 2/19/2011 3:00:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes:
like Nebbletto. ;)
You have to pick a name that cannot be mispelled.
Otherwise you're going to get squatters at Nebleto, Nebletto, Nablettoes
and so on
Selling male enhancement pills
Should I change the name of my company to Galactic Juggernaut ?
-Original Message-
From: Charlie Noah cwn...@comcast.net
To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Thu, Feb 17, 2011 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] Frustrated with Rocket / Unidata 7.2
Totally OT, and I'm
I agree with the opinions expressed, but wish, as one writer has already,
to stress the *reason*.
Thrashing the disk is a very bad idea. If you want to do any operation
whatsoever, on more than say thirty percent of any file, the best course is to
do that operation in disk order i.e. frame
I only know of two users groups which still hold meetings. The one in
Texas and the one in Seattle.
Does anyone know of any other *active* user groups who hold meetings ? I'd
like to update the list in my article
http://knol.google.com/k/pick-universe-unidata-resources#view
W
Thanks Richard. I just sent a message to kerry because the page here
http://www.aapug.org/next%20meeting.htm
has not been update in quite a while. That made me believe they no longer met.
W
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Here's the problem I see with moving messages out of the code.
It's perfectly fine *if* you have a developer environment of some kind that
automatically pulls in messages while you're reviewing code. However in my
experience, very few sites have anything close to this.
As the next one to
I can agree with that of course.
I've implemented systems that are architecturally beautiful and easy to
maintain :)
I was just pointing out that in my experience, this sort of shifting material
out of in-line code makes the system harder to maintain not easier.
There are many people who have
Universe System(9001) is supposed to be the equivalent of Unidata System(49)
W
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In a message dated 2/8/2011 6:02:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com writes:
In the late 80s I worked with Ultimate Pick on a VAX, running software
from SMI. That system used RPL as its native programming language. This
was the Ultimate PICK that ran on an add-in
Was your RPL compiler for Universe ever actually installed on a commercial
system ?
-Original Message-
From: Brian Leach br...@brianleach.co.uk
To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] RPL was Pick History et al
I
George, if I understand your requirement, and your addenda then may I present a
solution, which
1) allows ignoring all subsequent actions at any point; and
2) is completely re-arrangeable at whim; and
3) allows any number of conditional testing to be done at any random point
within the entire
Tony I'm not sure this could be true about RPL which is now only available for
D3 with variants in jBase and Reality
RPL was written initially I believe for the Reality, but was ported as well to
Ultimate and *I believe* to MvBase as well.
You can still, as far as I can see, get a new Ultimate
I can easily make this a very trivial program, *if* you will allow me to use a
control record :)
-Original Message-
From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com
To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 2:08 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] Does UV have a
I'm thinking it might be good to write up an article about RPL.
If any of you has knowledge of the history of the language, the company, etc.
you can email me, and we can collaborate on getting it all laid out... straight.
Will
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U2-Users mailing
RPL was a new language binding, which developed from PROC. It was a fully
extended language, capable of replacing BASIC in all regards. I wonder if
anyone is still running an RPL system anywhere?
Another note, per Ian Sandler, writing in or just before 1989, which might be
seen as
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