RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Brian, Thanks for book suggestions as this is one of the concepts that I am having issues with. Understanding the database/languages, SQL and Csharp, are just a how-to problem which I've got a pretty decent grasp of. However, RECORD LOCKING and concurrency seems to be the white elephant in room that I have seen less written about and worse even less thought out in the application(s) that I'm having to deal with. Thanks, Don Verhagen -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Leach Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:39 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) Hi Don I'm sure you'll excel there - especially with your depth of real-world (ie multivalue) knowledge behind you! But I would highly recommend reading whatever is the latest book on SQL Server and .Net by Roger Jennings before you do (check out Wrox press). Apart from the stuff pointed out here about maintaining three tier architectures and not just using data binding (actually, data binding to classes is fine, just binding to data sets is crap) the real bitch is concurrency control and how to handle it when you need to start looking at merge processing. There's a lot of good advise on that in the Roger Jennings books - and details on some hidden language features to make SQL Server access in .Net a lot more performant... Best of luck. Brian -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Don Verhagen Sent: 19 February 2009 11:04 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To those that know me on this group. I have been using the Unidata databases since 1998 when introduced to it by my former CIO. Over the years and throughout my IT career, it has served me well. Decreasing software production and maintenance costs, while at the same time increasing the value of the software I (we) developed to solve complex business solutions. I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Just wanted give a heads up to those that know me here. Don Verhagen Application Development Manager People 2.0 www.people20.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Brian raises a good point about concurrency and record locking. I am often surprised at how little understanding some developers have of record locking in the RDBMS environment. With RDBMS really having to work in the optimistic mode as pessimistic locking is usually inefficient in RDBMS. Hence applications need to handle conflict resolution, where someone else has made a change between read and update. David Jordan --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Just remember when you are wowed by the ease of binding controls to sql data sets, and just placing grids on your form and detail views etc that all of this is available for U2 as well using the u2 ado provider for .net or even at a very basic level with uniobjects, or using a 3rd party tool set like MV.NET or IBM's version of it. Also as others have hinted on here - you can knock up a form bound to your data in minutes just using standard controls- it will work perfectly but of course will be the way the control is designed to work - you will then spend the next 2 weeks hacking about with it to make it look and act just the way your specification requires lol I am one of the lucky ones who spends about 50% of my time doing web dev in asp.net with about 10% on sql and 40% on u2. All the best in your bright new world Symeon. -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Don Verhagen Sent: 19 February 2009 11:04 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To those that know me on this group. I have been using the Unidata databases since 1998 when introduced to it by my former CIO. Over the years and throughout my IT career, it has served me well. Decreasing software production and maintenance costs, while at the same time increasing the value of the software I (we) developed to solve complex business solutions. I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Just wanted give a heads up to those that know me here. Don Verhagen Application Development Manager People 2.0 www.people20.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Where ? -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Address Sent: 19 February 2009 21:51 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) Advertisement below. --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Tony G 1tlx6h...@sneakemail.com wrote: From: Tony G 1tlx6h...@sneakemail.com Subject: RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 3:55 PM Don Verhagen wrote I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Don - good luck to you. I expect you will find a couple clear differences and it would be nice if you could come back and share the experience with us after you've been at it a while: In the rest of the world it's much easier to simply plug a relational database into a project and make use of it through code. Tables as easily visible in trees in popular IDEs. Schemas easily become classes, and stored procedures become methods in a manner which is very elegant and compelling. I've tried to introduce MV developers to this luxury but so far there has been little interest: nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2008/11/mvcodegen2.html Yes, it's easy to get access to those relational table features but actually defining them on the front-end and maintaining them can be a pain. For data there is usually a need to normalize data, which is a constant bump in the road for those of us who enjoy multivalues and delimited fields. Of course data typing is an ongoing concern but personally I find strong data types to be helpful. And stored procedures can be a real pain. With SQL Server you at least now have the option to define SProcs with real code rather than as a stream of queries. A common code language is nice but the equivalent structure for us would be to write entire applications with code in data dictionaries or executed as triggers. So the code itself is better to work with but the location and flow of code is very different than our MV experience. I think you'll find that working in a non-MV shop you'll find a lot of things easier and less thinking from inside the box - but you'll probably also find yourself longing for those other things that you know are easier in MV. :) Best wishes, Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Thank you Symeon. There was no ad. He didn't respond to my inquiry off-list. What a honkin time waster. From: Symeon Breen Where ? From: Address Advertisement below. Tony G wrote: [full quote] --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Don: Good luck in the new world. We will miss you... Follow-up U2/SQL comparison posts would be appreciated. --Bill -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Don Verhagen Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:04 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To those that know me on this group. I have been using the Unidata databases since 1998 when introduced to it by my former CIO. Over the years and throughout my IT career, it has served me well. Decreasing software production and maintenance costs, while at the same time increasing the value of the software I (we) developed to solve complex business solutions. I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Just wanted give a heads up to those that know me here. Don Verhagen Application Development Manager People 2.0 www.people20.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Just remember Don, there's no place like home, there's no place like home --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Don Verhagen wrote I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Don - good luck to you. I expect you will find a couple clear differences and it would be nice if you could come back and share the experience with us after you've been at it a while: In the rest of the world it's much easier to simply plug a relational database into a project and make use of it through code. Tables as easily visible in trees in popular IDEs. Schemas easily become classes, and stored procedures become methods in a manner which is very elegant and compelling. I've tried to introduce MV developers to this luxury but so far there has been little interest: nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2008/11/mvcodegen2.html Yes, it's easy to get access to those relational table features but actually defining them on the front-end and maintaining them can be a pain. For data there is usually a need to normalize data, which is a constant bump in the road for those of us who enjoy multivalues and delimited fields. Of course data typing is an ongoing concern but personally I find strong data types to be helpful. And stored procedures can be a real pain. With SQL Server you at least now have the option to define SProcs with real code rather than as a stream of queries. A common code language is nice but the equivalent structure for us would be to write entire applications with code in data dictionaries or executed as triggers. So the code itself is better to work with but the location and flow of code is very different than our MV experience. I think you'll find that working in a non-MV shop you'll find a lot of things easier and less thinking from inside the box - but you'll probably also find yourself longing for those other things that you know are easier in MV. :) Best wishes, Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Advertisement below. --- On Thu, 2/19/09, Tony G 1tlx6h...@sneakemail.com wrote: From: Tony G 1tlx6h...@sneakemail.com Subject: RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 3:55 PM Don Verhagen wrote I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Don - good luck to you. I expect you will find a couple clear differences and it would be nice if you could come back and share the experience with us after you've been at it a while: In the rest of the world it's much easier to simply plug a relational database into a project and make use of it through code. Tables as easily visible in trees in popular IDEs. Schemas easily become classes, and stored procedures become methods in a manner which is very elegant and compelling. I've tried to introduce MV developers to this luxury but so far there has been little interest: nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2008/11/mvcodegen2.html Yes, it's easy to get access to those relational table features but actually defining them on the front-end and maintaining them can be a pain. For data there is usually a need to normalize data, which is a constant bump in the road for those of us who enjoy multivalues and delimited fields. Of course data typing is an ongoing concern but personally I find strong data types to be helpful. And stored procedures can be a real pain. With SQL Server you at least now have the option to define SProcs with real code rather than as a stream of queries. A common code language is nice but the equivalent structure for us would be to write entire applications with code in data dictionaries or executed as triggers. So the code itself is better to work with but the location and flow of code is very different than our MV experience. I think you'll find that working in a non-MV shop you'll find a lot of things easier and less thinking from inside the box - but you'll probably also find yourself longing for those other things that you know are easier in MV. :) Best wishes, Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Have fun with the new job, Don! Feel free to write back with any observations you think might be relevant. cheers! --dawn On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 5:04 AM, Don Verhagen u2-us...@southeast-florida.com wrote: To those that know me on this group. I have been using the Unidata databases since 1998 when introduced to it by my former CIO. Over the years and throughout my IT career, it has served me well. Decreasing software production and maintenance costs, while at the same time increasing the value of the software I (we) developed to solve complex business solutions. I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Just wanted give a heads up to those that know me here. Don Verhagen Application Development Manager People 2.0 www.people20.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ -- Dawn M. Wolthuis Take and give some delight today --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Good luck Don, actually finding MSSQL pretty easy to use in a web application I am helping to develop. Excellent integration with MS's Visual Web Developer. If it makes you feel any better I am currently involved in a project to move a long term Unidata db to Oracle. Cheers, Jeff -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Don Verhagen Sent: Thursday, 19 February 2009 10:04 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL) To those that know me on this group. I have been using the Unidata databases since 1998 when introduced to it by my former CIO. Over the years and throughout my IT career, it has served me well. Decreasing software production and maintenance costs, while at the same time increasing the value of the software I (we) developed to solve complex business solutions. I have accepted an Application Development management position with a company here in the Philadelphia area. However, they are not a U2 shop. I view this opportunity as a chance to build my skills in and around the .NET platform and evaluate the use MSSQL in a true business application that I myself have built on a U2 platform in a previous time. While this doesn't exclusively rule out U2 in the future, for now, I'll be in SQL-land. Just wanted give a heads up to those that know me here. Don Verhagen Application Development Manager People 2.0 www.people20.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Leaving U2 World to the Dark Side (SQL)
Whilst RDBMS allows easy direct manipulation of the database through products like .Net, the reality is that it is a nightmare if not thought out properly. If the business logic is in the client and you have a 1000 pcs, then a change to the business logic has to be sent out to 1,000 pcs at once. Then there is the issue of PCs being restored or offline when the update is occurring. If the business logic is at a central site, then it only has to be changed once. Also that same business logic could be reused for web services, web sites, mobile devices etc. This is why U2 is so strong as it has a powerful business rules programming language that runs at the database, that far outstrips the database programming languages of RDBMS. Whilst SQL Server allows .Net to be a business rule language they also warn of the performance hit. Those dealing with RDBMS usually implement an application server, which hosts the business rules at a central site in a friendlier programming language than what the database has. For U2 the application server is combined with the database, instant cost and performance saving. Whilst it may be simple to link a dataset to a database and drag and drop it to text boxes on a client, one can be creating a rod for their back as business logic on the client will be a nightmare to support. What many do is link the dataset to a subroutine output thus keeping the logic on the database. If people want to link datasets directly to the database in .Net/java then they should look at 3 tier client server with this being done in the middle tier (application server) Just my 2c on this subject Regards David Jordan --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
