Re: OneConf and Software Center
On lun., 2010-07-12 at 15:03 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Didier Roche wrote on 30/06/10 21:25: On mer., 2010-06-30 at 18:06 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter#oneconf ... I just see some missing remarks and want to clarify them with you: - we just list there items that aren't on this computer, but we can know as well additional software that has been removed on the remote compute and that are still there. Is it out of scope now? I hadn't realized that was part of the use cases -- I was thinking more about installation than removal. It was part of sync all basically. If we want to still get it from a design point of view, we can add a 2 items that are installed here, but not on David's Netbook with a Remove all button. Does that include only packages that were part of the default installation on the other computer? Or does it include all packages that were removed from the other computer, regardless of whether they were part of the default installation? It would be packages that were remove compared to the default installation, being part or not to the default set installed. The main challenge would be making any extra branch look like it belonged, in a screen supposedly devoted to things that *are* installed. I think this can be addressed easily, let me try something and we can discuss about it afterwards about dropping it or not. - I'm not clear about what other items should contain to be honest :) Items that are installed both on that computer and this one. I.e. everything that's common to both. Hum, I'm more skeptical about that one. What the point of showing things that are common to both as you can do nothing particular with them? This sounds redundant with the installed softwares entry, isn't it? I'm a bit concerned about spamming dbus for non relevant info. - for item not available, we can say from which repository they were found. Will it be insane to tell something like you can add … software source to be able to sync that software Sorry, I haven't had time to figure out how to present that understandably. (David Siegel has just pointed out to me that even in the single-computer case, we don't present Use This Source well for items in the partner repository.) Yeah, we should have a common way for this. For now, I'll see if I have time to figure something out after first draft. - What Install All is doing? Is it only installing applications or applications and technical items? there was some use case when I want to be able to sync on my netbook all my applications but not technical item. I was thinking that it would depend on whether you'd clicked the 1417 other technical items link. But if so, maybe that link should be a toggle (click it again to hide the technical items), rather than something that disappears when you click it. What do you think? A toggle sounds fine, we should maybe look with Barry to have the same thing to all panels as it makes sense to installed software and such as well. We can maybe change the label to install all including technical items (or a better label, of course), when the user click on 1417 other technical items to show that the install all changed? ... Maybe the button label could just change to include the number: Install All 3 - Install All 19. Sounds perfectly clear and no ambiguity with changing the label. Thanks a lot for your answers. Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: OneConf and Software Center
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Didier Roche wrote on 30/06/10 21:25: On mer., 2010-06-30 at 18:06 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter#oneconf ... I just see some missing remarks and want to clarify them with you: - we just list there items that aren't on this computer, but we can know as well additional software that has been removed on the remote compute and that are still there. Is it out of scope now? I hadn't realized that was part of the use cases -- I was thinking more about installation than removal. If we want to still get it from a design point of view, we can add a 2 items that are installed here, but not on David's Netbook with a Remove all button. Does that include only packages that were part of the default installation on the other computer? Or does it include all packages that were removed from the other computer, regardless of whether they were part of the default installation? The main challenge would be making any extra branch look like it belonged, in a screen supposedly devoted to things that *are* installed. - I'm not clear about what other items should contain to be honest :) Items that are installed both on that computer and this one. I.e. everything that's common to both. - for item not available, we can say from which repository they were found. Will it be insane to tell something like you can add … software source to be able to sync that software Sorry, I haven't had time to figure out how to present that understandably. (David Siegel has just pointed out to me that even in the single-computer case, we don't present Use This Source well for items in the partner repository.) - What Install All is doing? Is it only installing applications or applications and technical items? there was some use case when I want to be able to sync on my netbook all my applications but not technical item. I was thinking that it would depend on whether you'd clicked the 1417 other technical items link. But if so, maybe that link should be a toggle (click it again to hide the technical items), rather than something that disappears when you click it. What do you think? We can maybe change the label to install all including technical items (or a better label, of course), when the user click on 1417 other technical items to show that the install all changed? ... Maybe the button label could just change to include the number: Install All 3 - Install All 19. - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkw7ILIACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpeUwCgkXXkYC6vly6sRx4Eb7aDLabn 79wAoKPi6dYSGBFbGXbe3xCnm8gM8En0 =TCAw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: OneConf and Software Center
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Didier Didier Roche wrote on 22/04/10 09:33: Le mercredi 21 avril 2010 à 21:23 -0400, Jason J. Herne a écrit : ... Thanks for working with me to develop a good overview for OneConf (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf) and for considering my design ideas. ... I've been thinking about your suggested method of using Software Center to obtain a list of user installed packages (minus dependencies Ubuntu base packages). I have taken a look at the list of installed applications as reported by S-C and I do not believe it works. I'm not sure how software center decides which packages go into this list, but it seems to contain both base packages as well as dependencies of installed packages. See http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1t7wjds=5 This shows some base packages listed in Software Center, like Archive manager and Calculator. This one is not important to me and seems even logical, as there are still applications, you maybe want to remove the Calculator from an installed desktop (no offense robert_ancell ;)). So, keeping the default list somewhere is something not directly related. See http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=148jay1s=5 This was taken right after command 'sudo apt-get install dia'. Software Center is showing the library files and common files for Dia. hum, this one is more annoying. Thanks for looking at that. This is a combination of three bugs in Ubuntu Software Center. First, the Installed Software section is supposed to be a categorized list of all packages installed on the system. Currently, though, it is an uncategorized list of only the applications installed on the system. http://launchpad.net/bugs/437072 Second, a package (e.g. dia-gnome) that provides an application (e.g. Dia diagram editor) should not show up separately from that application. This works in most listings, but it fails in Installed Software search results. http://launchpad.net/bugs/537735 And third, in any listing that includes packages that do not provide an application (e.g. dia-libs, dia-common), those packages are supposed to be hidden by default inside a NN other technical items disclosure panel. Currently they're just shown by default. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter#software-list-view-disclosure If anyone would like to fix any of these things, I'd greatly appreciate it. :-) Do you know how Software Center decides which packages go into this list? I've looked at the source code (briefly) but I did not find much. I'm sure a more thorough investigation would turn up more information but I'm not sure if it is worth the time since the list does not seem to be filtered how we want it to be. ... Why would you ask USC for this list? Why not ask apt or aptdaemon directly, something like Give me a list of all installed packages that aren't dependencies of ubuntu-desktop. As for the interface for OneConf in general, this seems like it should be part of a standalone Migration Assistant for transferring your stuff to/from other computers (programs and files to/from Ubuntu, and files only to/from other OSes). The migration step in the Ubuntu installer would be an embedded subset of this overall feature. It might also make sense for recording/syncing the set of installed packages to be accessible from Ubuntu Software Center, but *maybe* only as a menu item that launches the Migration Assistant. What do you think? Is there any other reason you'd want to record that kind of list? - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwQrGUACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecobgwCfaty07Rho5FgRjjmHX4IUONY5 MrwAoKaCB8vHKVUNigOADuiTKKOmHWCG =oLrd -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: OneConf and Software Center
Le mercredi 21 avril 2010 à 21:23 -0400, Jason J. Herne a écrit : Hi didrocks, Hey Jason Thanks for working with me to develop a good overview for OneConf (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf) and for considering my design ideas. If I understand correctly you are the desktop team member who will be leading the OneConf effort? I'm excited about this idea and I'm eager to help design and code it as much as I can. Thanks to you for setting up the page. I was quite surprised when I saw your first draft as you just based on what I've initially written (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/10.10/BlueprintList) which is now at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf#4. Initial Notes, and your first draft was excellent on that regard ! You expanded what I was thinking about in my initial notes perfectly :-) Good to see contributions there especially when you didn't expect it neither advertised more than writing notes on a wiki page about that idea. :) So, good surprise and thanks for involving you in that effort. Yes, I'm the desktop team member who will dive into that effort for the maverick cycle (see the blueprint ready for discussion at UDS, linking the wiki page: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-oneconf). I've been thinking about your suggested method of using Software Center to obtain a list of user installed packages (minus dependencies Ubuntu base packages). I have taken a look at the list of installed applications as reported by S-C and I do not believe it works. I'm not sure how software center decides which packages go into this list, but it seems to contain both base packages as well as dependencies of installed packages. See attached screen shot named 'sc-base.png'. This shows some base packages listed in Software Center, like Archive manager and Calculator. This one is not important to me and seems even logical, as there are still applications, you maybe want to remove the Calculator from an installed desktop (no offense robert_ancell ;)). So, keeping the default list somewhere is something not directly related. See attached screen shot named 'sc-deps.png'. This was taken right after command 'sudo apt-get install dia'. Software Center is showing the library files and common files for Dia. hum, this one is more annoying. Thanks for looking at that. Do you know how Software Center decides which packages go into this list? I've looked at the source code (briefly) but I did not find much. I'm sure a more thorough investigation would turn up more information but I'm not sure if it is worth the time since the list does not seem to be filtered how we want it to be. I think we can ask to the author of software-center directly. I don't know if mvo is following that list, I'll forward that to him if he doesn't. I'd prefer discussing that at UDS (see below) as everyone is currently busy with lucid release. If using Software Center turns out not to work then we are back to either detecting user installed packages from the data we already have or modifying apt to save more metadata about installed packages. I noticed that you marked the later idea as unrealistic. May I ask what your reasoning is? Certainly changing apt in a way that is 100% backwards compatible is not out of the question, correct? Also, the previous work I mentioned on the Wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackageDependencyManagement) did something very similar to what we need. Not only does this previous effort set precedent for such a change it even provides the framework for new extended package states. It seems as though it was the intention of the developer to allow others to add new extended package states. Since this is exactly what we need, why not take advantage of it and simply create the new package states? I marked it as unrealistic because we don't really know what's the consequence of such changes, and how they can integrated in Debian, as well as it regarding the automatic mark on package. I'd prefer work that on mvo who has the knowledge of all packaging management (apt/synaptic/update-manager/ex gnome-app-install and now software-center) and see if we can do that in a clean way in software-center so that we can have the same algorithm :) Thanks for your time and consideration. note: I'm cc'ing the ubuntu-desktop list as others may have input or be able to fill in the gaps in my Software Center knowledge :) Thanks Jason for your interest in this. We will discuss that blueprint at next UDS in Belgium (10-14th May). Did you plan to come? If not, you should have a look at remote particpation (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-M/RemoteParticipation) I don't expect to have much time to work on that before the UDS discussion which is the one to take decisions :) Thanks again, Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: OneConf and Software Center
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:25 -0400, Jason J. Herne wrote: Hi didrocks, Thanks for working with me to develop a good overview for OneConf (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf) and for considering my design ideas. If I understand correctly you are the desktop team member who will be leading the OneConf effort? I'm excited about this idea and I'm eager to help design and code it as much as I can. yes, sounds great, and in line with my plans for GNOME 3.0, if time permits, which is to write a dconf (gconf replacement) backend based on Desktopcouch, which would synchronize the settings database to all computers the user registers with Ubuntu One. From the wiki page, I understand there might be cases where users don't want settings for a specific app to be synchronized between computers (not sure I'd want that, since I have the same settings in all my computers, but I understand others would want to), but in the list of apps in that wiki page, do you plan to go over each app and make their settings sync? What about other apps the user wants but are not in the list? That's why I think a desktopcouch-based dconf backend might be better, since *all* settings would be replicated, and there won't be any need to have a list of supported apps. Of course, some thought might be needed for not syncing specific settings, if it's really something users need. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: OneConf and Software Center
Le jeudi 22 avril 2010 à 13:44 +0200, Rodrigo Moya a écrit : On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 22:25 -0400, Jason J. Herne wrote: Hi didrocks, Thanks for working with me to develop a good overview for OneConf (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf) and for considering my design ideas. If I understand correctly you are the desktop team member who will be leading the OneConf effort? I'm excited about this idea and I'm eager to help design and code it as much as I can. yes, sounds great, and in line with my plans for GNOME 3.0, if time permits, which is to write a dconf (gconf replacement) backend based on Desktopcouch, which would synchronize the settings database to all computers the user registers with Ubuntu One. I'm not sure to synchronized _all_ data TBH. We should filter thing and only take relevant one (for instance, nothing say that you want the same theme in your netbook and laptop, neither that you want the same plugin/configuration everyone). But for a subset I agree that can be relevant. From the wiki page, I understand there might be cases where users don't want settings for a specific app to be synchronized between computers (not sure I'd want that, since I have the same settings in all my computers, but I understand others would want to), but in the list of apps in that wiki page, do you plan to go over each app and make their settings sync? What about other apps the user wants but are not in the list? That's why I think a desktopcouch-based dconf backend might be better, since *all* settings would be replicated, and there won't be any need to have a list of supported apps. Of course, some thought might be needed for not syncing specific settings, if it's really something users need. See what I told above. We should offer syncing everything but by default, filters them :) Not all major apps store something in gconf (and so, will in dconf). Just speaking about chromium, firefox… So, we should do a desktopcouch integration for them to get the ubuntu one replication for free :) Didier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
