Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 06/07/2011 08:03 PM, Matthew East wrote: On 7 June 2011 10:02, Alan Bell alanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: yeah, I would very much hope that lightdm does not introduce more accessibility regressions. I'm taking this opportunity to post a link to this comment on the proposed switch to lightDM from Matthew Garrett, in case people reading here haven't seen it, it seems relevant to this discussion and I haven't seen it mentioned before. It also briefly discusses impact on accessibility, albeit without going into detail. http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136274.html Needless to say, I disagree with most of the points Matthew has raised. :) The argument that LightDM does less because it is smaller is weak. The features listed as missing are the ones currently provided by GNOME session. However, you could very easily write a LightDM greeter that ran a GNOME session (i.e. just copy the relevant code from GDM) that would provide all that same functionality for almost no significant additional lines of code (as the lines are all external modules). So LightDM could provide all the same functionality as GDM with it's current size. However, if you produce a greeter that does implement this functionality by the numbers given in the blog post you would have a whopping 49,000 lines of code to use before you became bigger than GDM. My preferred design is not to use GNOME session, with the main reasons being startup cost, complexity and the security risks of running a full session in a login screen (as pointed out by Chris earlier in this thread). However, the assumption seems to be this will involve rewriting every service. Not the case; of course a GNOME greeter would leverage as much as is appropriate of the GNOME platform e.g. using gnome-power-manager if that was the best solution. A point that is incorrect (which I pointed out to Matthew but he didn't correct) is things like power management are not performed in the backend. So the backend is not going to swell to support different desktops. Sharing policy between login screen and session is up to the greeter. A GNOME greeter should have the same policy as a GNOME session. It wont be the same as KDE policy. Finally I think Matthew massively underestimates the value of being able to differentiate on the greeter. A number of projects - including Ubuntu - have wanted to have a greeter that matches their desktops but have been unable to do so with GDM. No-one really cares (or wants to know) how the lower layers of display management work (I certainly didn't), they just want to work on the GUI. If we were to modify GDM to provide the UI we want (has been attempted a few times) we would be carrying a huge patch on top of the already 35 we are carrying in Natty. Using LightDM we are able to run the daemon unpatched and differentiate to our hearts content with the greeter. With GDM we would effectively be forking the project. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 8 June 2011 02:58, Bryce Harrington br...@canonical.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: I'm taking this opportunity to post a link to this comment on the proposed switch to lightDM from Matthew Garrett, in case people reading here haven't seen it, it seems relevant to this discussion and I haven't seen it mentioned before. http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136274.html tl;dr version: Every wart is earned in the process of fixing a bug; those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc. Fairly bog standard rant against doing something new. Actually, to be fair, I don't think that it is at that kind of level. It's not just a criticism of the concept of using something lightweight, the post looks specifically at differences between the competing software, features and design policies. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 08:45:38AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: On 8 June 2011 02:58, Bryce Harrington br...@canonical.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: I'm taking this opportunity to post a link to this comment on the proposed switch to lightDM from Matthew Garrett, in case people reading here haven't seen it, it seems relevant to this discussion and I haven't seen it mentioned before. http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136274.html tl;dr version: Every wart is earned in the process of fixing a bug; those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc. Fairly bog standard rant against doing something new. Actually, to be fair, I don't think that it is at that kind of level. It's not just a criticism of the concept of using something lightweight, the post looks specifically at differences between the competing software, features and design policies. Specifically? Boiling Matt's post down this is what I'm reading: 1. NIH 2. It doesn't start a GNOME session 3. Doesn't have arbitrary shiny stuff like slidy effects 4. Auto-update when users are created or deleted 5. Accessibility functionality UI 6. Gratuitously drawing a clock 7. Handle power policy via gnome-power-manager rather than via upower #1 yeah but whatever. #2 seems like a feature unless proven otherwise. #3 who cares. #4 ok, fair point, seems minor though. #5 important, but I think already under development. #6 yeah right. #7 huh? Anyway, I greatly respect mjg59 but find this particular post not very constructive. Bryce -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
Le mercredi 08 juin 2011 à 01:09 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit : Boiling Matt's post down this is what I'm reading: 1. NIH 2. It doesn't start a GNOME session 3. Doesn't have arbitrary shiny stuff like slidy effects 4. Auto-update when users are created or deleted 5. Accessibility functionality UI 6. Gratuitously drawing a clock 7. Handle power policy via gnome-power-manager rather than via upower #1 yeah but whatever. #2 seems like a feature unless proven otherwise. #3 who cares. #4 ok, fair point, seems minor though. #5 important, but I think already under development. #6 yeah right. #7 huh? As I see it, the problem is that when you'll have brought back accessibility, power and sound management, you'll essentially have started a GNOME session or an equivalent, losing a good part of the lightweight. Maybe I'm wrong, though - history will surely tell. Cheers -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 8 June 2011 09:09, Bryce Harrington br...@canonical.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 08, 2011 at 08:45:38AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: On 8 June 2011 02:58, Bryce Harrington br...@canonical.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: I'm taking this opportunity to post a link to this comment on the proposed switch to lightDM from Matthew Garrett, in case people reading here haven't seen it, it seems relevant to this discussion and I haven't seen it mentioned before. http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136274.html tl;dr version: Every wart is earned in the process of fixing a bug; those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc. Fairly bog standard rant against doing something new. Actually, to be fair, I don't think that it is at that kind of level. It's not just a criticism of the concept of using something lightweight, the post looks specifically at differences between the competing software, features and design policies. Specifically? Boiling Matt's post down this is what I'm reading: 1. NIH 2. It doesn't start a GNOME session 3. Doesn't have arbitrary shiny stuff like slidy effects 4. Auto-update when users are created or deleted 5. Accessibility functionality UI 6. Gratuitously drawing a clock 7. Handle power policy via gnome-power-manager rather than via upower Well, your second post is a bit more like a rebuttal of the blog post than your first one was, and you've more or less stated the points that are made (except for point 6, which isn't really made), although I don't think you've really taken much time rebutting the reasoning behind points 2 and 7 (which seem to be the main focus of the post). For my part, I don't have the technical knowledge to even have an opinion on the issues raised, and I certainly can't participate in the discussion in any meaningful way. I have 100% faith in the decision makers and implementers in this team to get this right. As I mentioned originally, I just wanted to bring the post to the attention of the right people, as I hadn't seen it mentioned. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On Wed, Jun 08, 2011, Bryce Harrington wrote: Boiling Matt's post down this is what I'm reading: 1. NIH 2. It doesn't start a GNOME session 3. Doesn't have arbitrary shiny stuff like slidy effects 4. Auto-update when users are created or deleted 5. Accessibility functionality UI 6. Gratuitously drawing a clock 7. Handle power policy via gnome-power-manager rather than via upower Another piece in mjg59's post is a critique of the amount of testing that a new software piece gets; we all know that new software introduces new bugs, no matter how talented the authors. This is not to say that we shouldn't ever rewrite any software though. Across the lines, there is the question of evolution of the design; will lightdm be eventually be as complex as the othre dms? -- Loïc Minier -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 11:01 +0200, Milan Bouchet-Valat wrote: Le mercredi 08 juin 2011 à 01:09 -0700, Bryce Harrington a écrit : Boiling Matt's post down this is what I'm reading: 1. NIH 2. It doesn't start a GNOME session 3. Doesn't have arbitrary shiny stuff like slidy effects 4. Auto-update when users are created or deleted 5. Accessibility functionality UI 6. Gratuitously drawing a clock 7. Handle power policy via gnome-power-manager rather than via upower #1 yeah but whatever. #2 seems like a feature unless proven otherwise. #3 who cares. #4 ok, fair point, seems minor though. #5 important, but I think already under development. #6 yeah right. #7 huh? As I see it, the problem is that when you'll have brought back accessibility, power and sound management, you'll essentially have started a GNOME session or an equivalent, losing a good part of the lightweight. Maybe I'm wrong, though - history will surely tell. I think there's a fundamental difference between “start a full GNOME session and blacklist stuff that in inappropriate for a login screen” and “start the bits of a full GNOME session that a login screen needs”. GDM apparently chooses the first route, which is why the recent security advisory where you could start a web-browser from the GDM screen with GDM's credentials can occur :). signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 06/06/2011 10:30 PM, Kevin Huang wrote: On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 18:01 +1000, Robert Ancell wrote: This feature is just not implemented yet. It will be in Oneiric. Any target date that loco can start to test? Definitely by Beta, ideally by A2. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
This feature is just not implemented yet. It will be in Oneiric. Good to know, Robert. Are you able to say something about e.g. the keyboard layout and universal access? This is an area where I'm definitely not an expert, and your help is greatly appreciated here! Most of my knowledge has come from picking Martin Pitt's brain and talking to others. The keyboard design as I see it is: - The layout is left as X sets it up - Selecting a user switches to the keyboard layout they have configured in their ~/.dmrc. If not present, keep the default layout - There will be a layout switcher, which will be applied to the .dmrc so it is preserved on login - Cancelling a login will revert to the default layout The real difficulty is in making sure that I've handled all the keyboard config correctly. I'm using libxklavier, I just need to know how many config items to save/restore correctly. With universal access the goal is as much as we can get. The greeter will probably be built with the same tech as Unity so as well as Unity. Ideally we'll have full AT-SPI with Orca running if required and an onscreen keyboard. Great. Is Gunnar Hjalmarsso involved in this feature implementation, I'm not yet, but I plan to make myself involved to assist with the i18n matters. :) I'll try to ensure that the current functionality with respect to languages and locales is preserved in the Oneiric release. Please do! File bugs on anything that's not up to scratch. -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 2011-06-07 10:22, Robert Ancell wrote: Are you able to say something about e.g. the keyboard layout and universal access? This is an area where I'm definitely not an expert, and your help is greatly appreciated here! Most of my knowledge has come from picking Martin Pitt's brain and talking to others. Hmm.. I merely asked because I wouldn't like to see significant regression, and did not mean to imply that I have anything useful to contribute with. Sorry if I gave another impression. :-/ ... I plan to make myself involved to assist with the i18n matters. :) I'll try to ensure that the current functionality with respect to languages and locales is preserved in the Oneiric release. Please do! File bugs on anything that's not up to scratch. You'll hear from me soon. Thanks! -- Gunnar Hjalmarsson -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Matthew East wrote: On 7 June 2011 10:02, Alan Bell alanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: yeah, I would very much hope that lightdm does not introduce more accessibility regressions. I'm taking this opportunity to post a link to this comment on the proposed switch to lightDM from Matthew Garrett, in case people reading here haven't seen it, it seems relevant to this discussion and I haven't seen it mentioned before. It also briefly discusses impact on accessibility, albeit without going into detail. http://mjg59.livejournal.com/136274.html tl;dr version: Every wart is earned in the process of fixing a bug; those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, etc. Fairly bog standard rant against doing something new. Yeah, 'lightweight' does tend to be used as a euphemism for 'incomplete' far too often; I'm onboard with that. Sort of like using 'cheap' to describe a product or 'randomly' in a bug description. But come now, this is gdm we're talking about... I remember when Firefox first came out, there were some who felt that starting over from scratch after so much effort had gone into creating the Mozilla codebase was a mistake. Mozilla had a built-in HTML editor, and a calendar and email reader and lots more. Firefox did so much *less* than Mozilla. But who still uses Mozilla? Bryce Why bother having a baby, when there are plenty of fully grown homeless people available at your local freeway onramp? -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
Thanks, I've updated the information. On 06/06/2011 04:04 AM, Steven wrote: Would you mind providing a little more information in the wiki about explicitly how to report and triage LightDM bugs? I'm assuming you want people to report it in Ubuntu with 'ubuntu-bug lightdm' and then add a tracker for the upstream project ( https://launchpad.net/lightdm)? Thanks. -Stenten On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Robert Ancell robert.anc...@canonical.com mailto:robert.anc...@canonical.com wrote: Hi all, As LightDM is scheduled to be the default display manager in Oneric by Alpha 2 it would be awesome if we can get as many testers as possible, so please be a guinea pig! If you are using Oneric you can install it from Universe: $ sudo apt-get install lightdm lightdm-greeter-example-gtk If using Natty you can install it from the PPA: $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:lightdm-team/ppa Expect less features than the current GDM (e.g. user switching not yet implemented). I've been using LightDM exclusively for over a week without any major issues and others have indicated they are also using it without issue. The GUI will be replaced with something more Unity like during the cycle so look out for lacking functionality but don't worry too much about the style. For more information see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LightDM Thanks, --Robert -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
Great. Is Gunnar Hjalmarsso involved in this feature implementation, and when can we start to test it? -- Best regards, Kevin On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 18:01 +1000, Robert Ancell wrote: This feature is just not implemented yet. It will be in Oneiric. On 06/04/2011 07:48 PM, Kevin Huang wrote: Hi Robert, In GDM design, the display language can be set on two levels: system wide, which determines what shown on the login screen, and user specific. It's only the user language that can be set from the login screen. Since there is no language option in LightDM screen, I assume no user language that can be set in Oneric. Is it correct? -- Best regards, Kevin On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:52 +1000, Robert Ancell wrote: Hi all, As LightDM is scheduled to be the default display manager in Oneric by Alpha 2 it would be awesome if we can get as many testers as possible, so please be a guinea pig! If you are using Oneric you can install it from Universe: $ sudo apt-get install lightdm lightdm-greeter-example-gtk If using Natty you can install it from the PPA: $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:lightdm-team/ppa Expect less features than the current GDM (e.g. user switching not yet implemented). I've been using LightDM exclusively for over a week without any major issues and others have indicated they are also using it without issue. The GUI will be replaced with something more Unity like during the cycle so look out for lacking functionality but don't worry too much about the style. For more information see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LightDM Thanks, --Robert -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On 2011-06-06 10:06, Kevin Huang wrote: On 2011-06-06 10:01, Robert Ancell wrote: On 2011-06-04 11:48, Kevin Huang wrote: In GDM design, the display language can be set on two levels: system wide, which determines what shown on the login screen, and user specific. It's only the user language that can be set from the login screen. Since there is no language option in LightDM screen, I assume no user language that can be set in Oneric. Is it correct? No. The ability to let each user set their language preferences is primarily controlled via Language Support. It does not depend on whether you can set the user language from the login screen. This feature is just not implemented yet. It will be in Oneiric. Good to know, Robert. Are you able to say something about e.g. the keyboard layout and universal access? Great. Is Gunnar Hjalmarsso involved in this feature implementation, I'm not yet, but I plan to make myself involved to assist with the i18n matters. :) I'll try to ensure that the current functionality with respect to languages and locales is preserved in the Oneiric release. -- Gunnar Hjalmarsson -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 18:01 +1000, Robert Ancell wrote: This feature is just not implemented yet. It will be in Oneiric. Any target date that loco can start to test? On 06/04/2011 07:48 PM, Kevin Huang wrote: Hi Robert, In GDM design, the display language can be set on two levels: system wide, which determines what shown on the login screen, and user specific. It's only the user language that can be set from the login screen. Since there is no language option in LightDM screen, I assume no user language that can be set in Oneric. Is it correct? -- Best regards, Kevin On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 16:52 +1000, Robert Ancell wrote: Hi all, As LightDM is scheduled to be the default display manager in Oneric by Alpha 2 it would be awesome if we can get as many testers as possible, so please be a guinea pig! If you are using Oneric you can install it from Universe: $ sudo apt-get install lightdm lightdm-greeter-example-gtk If using Natty you can install it from the PPA: $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:lightdm-team/ppa Expect less features than the current GDM (e.g. user switching not yet implemented). I've been using LightDM exclusively for over a week without any major issues and others have indicated they are also using it without issue. The GUI will be replaced with something more Unity like during the cycle so look out for lacking functionality but don't worry too much about the style. For more information see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LightDM Thanks, --Robert -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Re: Call for testing: LightDM
Would you mind providing a little more information in the wiki about explicitly how to report and triage LightDM bugs? I'm assuming you want people to report it in Ubuntu with 'ubuntu-bug lightdm' and then add a tracker for the upstream project (https://launchpad.net/lightdm)? Thanks. -Stenten On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Robert Ancell robert.anc...@canonical.comwrote: Hi all, As LightDM is scheduled to be the default display manager in Oneric by Alpha 2 it would be awesome if we can get as many testers as possible, so please be a guinea pig! If you are using Oneric you can install it from Universe: $ sudo apt-get install lightdm lightdm-greeter-example-gtk If using Natty you can install it from the PPA: $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:lightdm-team/ppa Expect less features than the current GDM (e.g. user switching not yet implemented). I've been using LightDM exclusively for over a week without any major issues and others have indicated they are also using it without issue. The GUI will be replaced with something more Unity like during the cycle so look out for lacking functionality but don't worry too much about the style. For more information see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LightDM Thanks, --Robert -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
Call for testing: LightDM
Hi all, As LightDM is scheduled to be the default display manager in Oneric by Alpha 2 it would be awesome if we can get as many testers as possible, so please be a guinea pig! If you are using Oneric you can install it from Universe: $ sudo apt-get install lightdm lightdm-greeter-example-gtk If using Natty you can install it from the PPA: $ sudo apt-add-repository ppa:lightdm-team/ppa Expect less features than the current GDM (e.g. user switching not yet implemented). I've been using LightDM exclusively for over a week without any major issues and others have indicated they are also using it without issue. The GUI will be replaced with something more Unity like during the cycle so look out for lacking functionality but don't worry too much about the style. For more information see this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LightDM Thanks, --Robert -- ubuntu-desktop mailing list ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop
