Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
On Wed, 2016-10-12 at 00:29 -0500, amon wrote: > > > Ralf replies: > > > On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:37:45 -0500, amon wrote: > > > So my question is, how do you make that userland automounter recognize > > > that the disk is just not up for grabs? It does not seem to even > > > look at cryptab or fstab for a hint. > > > > The appropriate mailing list for a user question, is the user mailing > > list. > > I respectfully disagree. It is my belief that the system simply > does not handle this correctly at all. I would be happy to be > proven wrong, but if I am correct, it would also be nice if > it could be put in the queue as something to be fixed. I don't know if the issue you experience is a bug or not. If you would send a request to the user mailing list, perhaps somebody is able to help you solving the problem. If you belief that it is a bug, report it to the bug tracker. Indeed, discussing a bug could be done on this list, but report the bug and post the link, too. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
Ralf replies: On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:37:45 -0500, amon wrote: So my question is, how do you make that userland automounter recognize that the disk is just not up for grabs? It does not seem to even look at cryptab or fstab for a hint. The appropriate mailing list for a user question, is the user mailing list. I respectfully disagree. It is my belief that the system simply does not handle this correctly at all. I would be happy to be proven wrong, but if I am correct, it would also be nice if it could be put in the queue as something to be fixed. -- +---+ | Dale Amon Immortal Data| | CEO Midland International Air and Space Port| | a...@vnl.com "Data Systems for Deep Space and Time" | +---+ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
On Wed, 12 Oct 2016 00:10:18 +0200, Xen wrote: >I would never allow unmaintained kernel updates on any system. If >there's nobody there to fix it, don't update it. Many other things can >go wrong too, but... booting is most important. This thread is a PITA. Stop spreading this FUD! Ubuntu allows to install a new kernel, without removing older kernels. Sure, if you start collecting kernels in a small /boot partition, it could cause issues, but then again, Linux requires self-responsibility. Keep an old and a new kernel and purge the old, after testing the new kernel. Btw. you can chroot or systemd-nspawn, you don't need to be able to finish boot, to fix an issue. Btw. the kernel policy is "no regressions", so if you use a distro that doesn't apply distro specific patches, you usually only experience issues for nice domains, such as abbreviated driver names for audio cards, that require fixing scripts to ensure rt priorities, but issues that affect many users are rare, even for kernels with e.g. Ubuntu patches. Regarding upgrades in general, they are needed for security reasons, so not upgrading is idiotic in most cases. Apart from this, no experienced Linux user ever would upgrade, without taking care about the upgrades, either by reading release notes, or by following community news. The advantage of Linux, over restricted operating systems is exactly this transparency, but yes, indeed, it requires to be interested in this. If a user has got no interested in getting minimal knowledge and a little bit of learning, on a level you also need to use a washing machine, a radio and similar gear, than Linux is the wrong choice. Please, stop using Linux, use Windows and complain in Windows forums, if Windows shouldn't provide the Linux features you like. They most likely welcome your input. On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:37:45 -0500, amon wrote: >So my question is, how do you make that userland automounter recognize >that the disk is just not up for grabs? It does not seem to even >look at cryptab or fstab for a hint. The appropriate mailing list for a user question, is the user mailing list. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
Xens says: 2) I would love a feature in which I could add a blkid to fstab such that if I plug that particular USB or other storage device into my machine, that instead of mounting in /media/user/diskname, it would mount just like any other disk would at boot time. I do this all the time. All of my usb disks mount in specific locations. They are set to auto and nofail. I haven't seen a way to do this, although I believe old automounters were fine with such. defaults, auto won't do it because it will hang you up waiting at boot time (well, you can set other options to prevent the hang, but its not really what I'd like to see. Hmm... you speak of systemd probably. I do not know what other concerns you have. The problem is that in my desktop I end up with a race. The desktop detects the new device and ignores cryptab and fstab and asks if I want to mount or whatever. I have to give it a NO and then go to a root shell and execute a manual cryptdisk_start and mount (or just mount if not encrypted). If it was just a plain mount, the GUI doesn't even do that, and I then have to unmount the device from /dev/meda/whomever/whatever before doing the mount command that actually uses /etc/fstab. So my question is, how do you make that userland automounter recognize that the disk is just not up for grabs? It does not seem to even look at cryptab or fstab for a hint. -- +---+ | Dale Amon Immortal Data| | CEO Midland International Air and Space Port| | a...@vnl.com "Data Systems for Deep Space and Time" | +---+ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
Tom H schreef op 11-10-2016 22:36: What I mean by maintain is make sure that updates are installed, just like on Windows and macOS. Aye. To me it is a detriment. I used to turn Windows Update off completely for years while I was running XP and 7. For me the incessant updates are only a distraction and now with Windows 10 it is twenty times worse than it will ever be on Ubuntu. However some updates do break stuff not only on Windows. Mint has a policy to warn the user and not install kernel updates by default. I would never allow unmaintained kernel updates on any system. If there's nobody there to fix it, don't update it. Many other things can go wrong too, but... booting is most important. One of the laptops is my neighbor's. I whatsapp her to see whether it's a good time, and if it is, I switch to her wifi network, ssh in, and run apt-get. That's a lot of work ;-). In the sense of having to pay attention, to keep at it, to not abate, in that sense. I visit my parents once a week and I do the same on their laptops. I had zero maintenance on XP for years and the only thing that started bogging down is that I couldn't install new graphics drivers at a certain point. I literally had an installation that was at least 2 years old while seeing frequent installs and various updates to various things except Windows itself. Today I keep having to reinstall stuff constantly. I used to do the same as I now do with Ubuntu with my parents' laptops when they were running Windows six years ago. Well it's not necessary. There is almost no point to it. Very few machines are directly exposed to the internet and no one is actually at risk. The updates don't protect against the most common type of threat and most machines get infected by running things themselves. Could you take yourself out of the equation for those 3 laptops for a year without a problem? Absolutely. I'd switch on the update thingy for them to click OK for their systems to be updated. If they never had to install anything new... Microsoft currently enjoys releasing updates that break systems and then they release a fix several days later. I have also seen enough messages on these lists from people whose systems got broken by updates. There is a reason Mint has that policy. http://askubuntu.com/questions/781668/system-wont-boot-anymore-after-software-update Just one message I quickly found. These are pretty regular. It is absolutely not safe to let the system update itself without anyone present who could fix it. I don't trust it on Windows and I don't trust it on Linux. It has nothing to do with Linux this or Linux that, or Windows this or Windows that. I don't trust a company to deploy updates across a wide variety of systems although I guess OpenSUSE is renowned for running extensive safety tests across many different configurations. They don't take it lightly. I once broke off a Microsoft update. It was taking too long. I could reinstall the system afterward. So seeing the amount of maintenance you do today I suppose you have a reason for doing it manually, which gives me reason to believe that automatic updates would not suffice for you either. I don't believe this quick statement that these systems would be fine for a year. It's a risky game you play. Of course if you leave them without updates they would probably be fine still 20 years from now. Provided that KDE or Unity or whatever would not get corrupted. (Which it can also frequently do, especially if you install something). A few days I hooked up my system to a TV. Within minutes I had no longer a functioning KDE system. 'Nuf said? This is someone else, 4 days ago. Okay, maybe KDE is worse than the others. https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=136651&p=365369&hilit=kscreen#p365369 Someone hooks their laptop up to a projector and it basically stops working. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Xen wrote: > Tom H schreef op 11-10-2016 16:52: >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Xen wrote: I'll reply quickly to the beginning and read and reply to the rest tomorrow. >>> That's not really true. The vast majority of people would go screaming >>> for a Windows or Mac PC if they had Linux preinstalled. >>> >>> The level of system maintenance I would have to give to my family for >>> a Linux box is about 95%. >> >> Please don't extrapolate from your experience to all. >> >> I maintain three laptops for non-technical users and they're running >> Ubuntu quite happily. > > You say "maintain". I have never "maintained" anyone's Windows systems. I > just fixed stuff when it was broken and that was a very irregular event, > very very rarely. There was no maintenance in that sense. It is mostly "set > up and forget". What I mean by maintain is make sure that updates are installed, just like on Windows and macOS. One of the laptops is my neighbor's. I whatsapp her to see whether it's a good time, and if it is, I switch to her wifi network, ssh in, and run apt-get. I visit my parents once a week and I do the same on their laptops. > And I was not extrapolating from Ubuntu experience (in that sense, > supporting people with it) because I have never ever installed it on someone > else's System. I was extrapolating from my Windows experience. So, what you > say and what I say do not necessarily conflict, particularly if you attest > to "maintaining" those laptops for other peole which is precisely the > relationship I indicated. I used to do the same as I now do with Ubuntu with my parents' laptops when they were running Windows six years ago. > Could you take yourself out of the equation for those 3 laptops for a year > without a problem? Absolutely. I'd switch on the update thingy for them to click OK for their systems to be updated. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
My apologies, I know, I shouldn't have replied again, but it's hard to resist ;). -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:27:18 +0200, Xen wrote: >Tom H schreef op 11-10-2016 16:52: >> From skimming of this thread, it seems to me that you might be trying >> to work against the system in order to achieve your goal rather than >> use the tools that are provided, like people who run "chattr -i >> /etc/resolv.conf". > >Never even knew about that tool and those flags ;-). You did read about the immutable bit on Sun, 9 Oct 2016 15:05:59 +0200: "Regarding your argument that by accident somebody could wipe out a Linux install, there are several security mechanisms to prevent users to delete important things. One is that users cannot use sudo to get root privileges, but even a superuser has levels of protection, for example to mount read only, to set the immutable bit, not to use rm -r, but instead rm -I files* and rmdir or e.g. unlink instead of rm to remove a link. You describe Windows user typical behaviour without self-responsibility." You replied to it on Sun, 09 Oct 2016 18:32:55 +0200: "These are all practically unused options." If a user is not willing to use the provided tools, than the better OS for such a user is a restricted OS. Using Linux requires some amount of self-responsibility and a minimum of interest in learning how to use it. For using Linux there's no need to become a geek, but Linux is not a replacement for a restricted OS, for completely clueless users, without any interest in leraning how to use it. We needed to learn how to use forks and knives and for a much more complex tool, the computer, some people are not willing to spend at least the same amount of time and effort as they spend in learning how to use forks and knives. No restricted OS provides that amount of choice as Linux does. To make it easy for clueless users, some distros, e.g. Ubuntu, provide some defaults. I can't remember that I ever read such complaints as your, on the Ubuntu user list, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/ . I also do not understand, why a user who is satisfied with Windows, should use Linux and vice versa. Regards, Ralf -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
Tom H schreef op 11-10-2016 16:52: On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Xen wrote: That's not really true. The vast majority of people would go screaming for a Windows or Mac PC if they had Linux preinstalled. The level of system maintenance I would have to give to my family for a Linux box is about 95%. Please don't extrapolate from your experience to all. I maintain three laptops for non-technical users and they're running Ubuntu quite happily. You say "maintain". I have never "maintained" anyone's Windows systems. I just fixed stuff when it was broken and that was a very irregular event, very very rarely. There was no maintenance in that sense. It is mostly "set up and forget". And I was not extrapolating from Ubuntu experience (in that sense, supporting people with it) because I have never ever installed it on someone else's System. I was extrapolating from my Windows experience. So, what you say and what I say do not necessarily conflict, particularly if you attest to "maintaining" those laptops for other peole which is precisely the relationship I indicated. Could you take yourself out of the equation for those 3 laptops for a year without a problem? From skimming of this thread, it seems to me that you might be trying to work against the system in order to achieve your goal rather than use the tools that are provided, like people who run "chattr -i /etc/resolv.conf". Never even knew about that tool and those flags ;-). Your impression may coincide with my impression that I am often running "behind schedule" because other systems advance faster than I can keep up with. The result is that you don't have the "time" to learn to "work" with the new system because complication constantly goes up. An example is today when I am trying to prevent KScreen from resizing my X display. I don't know where I can disable it. I can either go on an endless and probably fruitless search for the answer, or I can write a script that checks syslog and reverts its changes when they have happened. You can call that "working against the system" but finding information on how to change the workings of kscreen will prove harder. I just learned I can disable it, but the way to do it was only evident through some stackexchange question, a site I am trying to avoid and if all my browsers supported the google addon they would never show up in my search results anymore. Writing the script empowers me because the next time it will be easier and I do not need any other knowledge than what I can already readily discover on my own to effectuate it. Most of Linux these days is completely and utterly dependent on external sources to know how to do anything. I just want to get to work changing my current system but they keep changing it faster than I can keep up with! Completely disabling KScreen is also quite unsatisfactory. Thus far I have learned to: use journalctl's --show-cursor functionality, its after-cursor functionality, of course the udev rule that was necessary, how to give a root user access to my X session, and so on. I prefer to be in control of my own systems but many of the "let me do that for you" systems we have today don't make that easier. KScreen's functionality is extremely borked and killed my X session or its display within minutes of me trying to configure dual monitor. I have stayed away from it ever since and run xrandr commands myself. The "system" works against ME!! Now KDE has started to give "copy / search" popups and now I have to find how to disable THOSE. ANOTHER THING TO DO. Fuck it, I'm leaving here ;-). Actually, it is Opera that started doing that, I blame the wrong person. I was able to turn it off. :D. It seemed to be site-wide because I often use it for e-mail. But KDE also has these things, like popups when you move a file (drag and drop) that I hate. The system is working against ME and doing stuff for me that I don't want. I was perfectly content with the simple way it worked in Windows 95 and things shouldn't have changed since then. A plus sign indicated copying, ctrl makes it into copying, a minus sign makes it moving or something like that, shift turns it into moving; that's all I need, as simple as that. People try to improve stuff that doesn't need improving and then I have to work against it in order to disable it again. So yes I am most definitely 'working against the system' because it keeps automating stuff (in the wrong way) I don't want to be automated. It is not making my life better by doing the wrong thing forcibly. I don't have the time to learn all of these new systems, I want to get my system working now, not three years down the road with scarce documentation available or documentation that requires you to read books before you can do anything. Why on earth should I learn to work with the system if it always opposes me? If it doesn't even make it easy? Those systems consider themsel
Re: Future and impact of ongoing projects in Linux world
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Xen wrote: > > That's not really true. The vast majority of people would go screaming > for a Windows or Mac PC if they had Linux preinstalled. > > The level of system maintenance I would have to give to my family for > a Linux box is about 95%. Please don't extrapolate from your experience to all. I maintain three laptops for non-technical users and they're running Ubuntu quite happily. >From skimming of this thread, it seems to me that you might be trying to work against the system in order to achieve your goal rather than use the tools that are provided, like people who run "chattr -i /etc/resolv.conf". -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
