Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

More: http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6=25526=133078#p133078 Richmond. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

You and I are apparently in the minority on that point these days. In fact, we may be the only two people left! ;-) Bob S On Oct 14, 2015, at 01:14 , Mark Waddingham > wrote: Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in chaos producing anything

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-14 15:59, Geoff Canyon wrote: I've never found this to be the case. I have never had someone report a bug to me because some other tool interfered with Navigator, or because Navigator tripped up someone else's tool. I wasn't saying Navigator ever caused a problem, I was more

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-14 16:29, Geoff Canyon wrote: I wasn't defending Navigator specifically, just pointing out that, in my experience, the current framework allows for reasonably clean development of tools. But there *is* a framework :) We've learnt a lot from trying to write new components in the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

New version of lcStackBrowser coming out this week with Widget support. Not super difficult but did involve some searching around to figure out how to get the properties of a widget. Pete lcSQL Software Home of lcStackBrowser and

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/14/2015 07:28 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote: Yay, then hopefully I won't have to update Navigator much/at all. You shouldn't have much trouble with it. Aside from spotty documentation, I added Extension/Widget support to PowerTools fairly easily. -- Mark Wieder ahsoftw...@gmail.com

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-14 17:23, Mark Wieder wrote: Exactly. And that's, for the most part, how PowerTools works as well. The hard part of tool coexistence is when you have to cooperate with frontscript handlers that may or may not do the right thing before you have a chance to handle messages. Duelling

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/14/2015 07:40 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote: If you needed a sha1Digest function you'd probably not go off and write your own in LiveCode Script (unless it was something you were *really* interested in doing), you'd use the engine one. Given the recent demonstration of a poc sha1 collision,

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-14 17:19, Mark Wieder wrote: Given the recent demonstration of a poc sha1 collision, I'd like a sha2Digest function, but again, I'd use the functionality from the openssl library rather than foolishly crating my own. Slightly Off-Topic... But... I wrote up a spec a while ago about

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/14/2015 06:49 AM, Geoff Canyon wrote: No. The IDE already provides messages that things have changed, and all Navigator has to do is get its name on the list of message receivers. After that Navigator just responds to the update requests it receives. It doesn't have its own code for

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote: > [Widgets] aren't groups of underlying objects - they are black-boxes like > the engine controls. Indeed, they are a mechanism for (essentially) writing > engine controls incredibly easily and accessibly (relative to

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote: > > Again, unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't accurate -- Navigator >> happily co-exists with every tool I know. >> > > As I said above, I wasn't talking about specific tools, nor any specific > problems at the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Hi Mark, I found revIDEExtensionProperties and used it. Pete lcSQL Software Home of lcStackBrowser and SQLiteAdmin On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Mark Waddingham

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Mark Wieder wrote: The hard part of tool coexistence is when you have to cooperate with frontscript handlers that may or may not do the right thing before you have a chance to handle messages. Duelling frontscripts gets ugly. A few years ago I proposed to my congressman that he introduce a

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: Typo - s/b get the properties of widget 1 of this card. Believe me Richard, it doesn't work, as per Mark W's response. I have no reason to doubt you. I was just hoping I'd missed some cool trick with the language. I'm sure as LCB evolves it'll continue to do an ever

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Would be great if that were the case and maybe it will be eventually but when I tried "get the keys of widget 1 of this card", I got an empty array. Widgets have their own set of properties which are defined as part of the process of creating them. You get and set them as any other property but

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: Would be great if that were the case and maybe it will be eventually but when I tried "get the keys of widget 1 of this card", I got an empty array. I'm unable to do that here even with built-in objects in v7.1: get the keys of this stack -- throws error put the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Geoff Canyon wrote: > I wasn't defending Navigator specifically, just pointing out that, > in my experience, the current framework allows for reasonably clean > development of tools. In the case of RevNavigator even more so: your tool politely checks for the existence of revMenubar when it

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Typo - s/b get the properties of widget 1 of this card. Believe me Richard, it doesn't work, as per Mark W's response. Pete lcSQL Software Home of lcStackBrowser and SQLiteAdmin On Wed, Oct

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: New version of lcStackBrowser coming out this week with Widget support. Not super difficult but did involve some searching around to figure out how to get the properties of a widget. If Widgets are a means of adding new objects to LC Script to compliment the existing

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

It's likely you've never had interference issues with Navigator because users wouldn't be using more than one property inspector simultaneously. But my Zygodact system did interfere with the GLX framework and I had to rewrite it to accommodate GLX. It wasn't how I wanted things to work, but

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Well, as has been the subject of other threads on here and the forums, 'the properties' whilst well meaning has never been particularly well defined. Monte did significant work on it a couple of years ago to make it work for lcVCS but that meant putting in specific code for the engine controls

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Peter Haworth wrote: > New version of lcStackBrowser coming out this week with Widget support. > Not super difficult but did involve some searching around to figure out how > to get the properties of a widget. > Great, then my biggest problem is

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

For what you are doing, I suspect it is the underlying details about what the properties are and their 'meta' attributes which are really needed. There are functions in the LC8 IDE for getting thins information for all controls - using the metadata file which accompanies any widget - however,

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-13 17:35, Richard Gaskin wrote: It's possible to invest our time enumerating reasons why people shouldn't enjoy crafting tools in LiveCode, but to what end? Any IDE (or IDE "tool" or "framework" or any other subset) is just a collections of stacks. The one thing we know about

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Interesting -- does/did GLX remove the update messages the IDE sends? Other than that, I don't think there's anything Navigator needs/does that could cause a problem, but of course I'm not really thinking about it thoroughly. If someone complained I might, but Navigator has been mostly unsupported

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: > Geoff Canyon wrote: > > I wasn't defending Navigator specifically, just pointing out that, > > in my experience, the current framework allows for reasonably clean > > development of tools. > > In the case of

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/14/2015 1:54 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: Interesting -- does/did GLX remove the update messages the IDE sends? I don't know but I doubt it. The problem in my case was that Zygodact's Registration dialog needs to store info in a prefs stack, and is intended to be opened before the mainstack

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Ah, okay, I do none of that. gc On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 4:42 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: > On 10/14/2015 1:54 PM, Geoff Canyon wrote: > >> Interesting -- does/did GLX remove the update messages the IDE sends? >> > > I don't know but I doubt it. The problem in my case

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: > Ken Ray and I discussed having one of the theoretical collapsible headers > being Favorites, so anyone who finds themselves using a certain subset of > props frequently can include them there while still keeping

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Peter Haworth wrote: > The properties array of an object does not include properties which can be > derived from other properties. That change was made a few releases back > and no method of invoking the prior behavior (perhaps "the effective >

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote: > > Tools can be entirely self-contained and fully interchangeable, even >> open at the same time, using nothing more than what the engine has >> provided for years. >> > > Really? Are you sure that is true? > > So you

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

J. Landman Gay wrote: > It's likely you've never had interference issues with Navigator > because users wouldn't be using more than one property inspector > simultaneously. But my Zygodact system did interfere with the GLX > framework and I had to rewrite it to accommodate GLX. It wasn't how > I

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 14/10/15 11:14, Mark Waddingham wrote: However, LC8 will be better than LC7, and subsequent LC versions will be better still. The more people who get involved to help us reach the goal of a lightweight IDE Framework, the more quickly it will happen and the better it will be. That

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Mark Waddingham wrote: > On 2015-10-13 17:35, Richard Gaskin wrote: > >> > I see no harm in encouraging people to just continue doing what >> they've been enjoying for decades: making tools to help their work >> and sharing them with

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-14 15:37, Geoff Canyon wrote: Further, I haven't even begun to look at widgets, but if they're implemented as a group of underlying objects, then Navigator doesn't (yet) handle that intelligently at all. They aren't groups of underlying objects - they are black-boxes like the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-13 06:08, Peter Haworth wrote: The publish/subscribe stuff sounds great, especially since I just found no newxxx messages are sent when creating a control from the tools palette. I did notice your bug report on that - however Ali is away for a few days at the moment so I haven't

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-12 22:31, Richard Gaskin wrote: That's an obvious option if we assume there must be only one IDE. And from the company's perspective that's a useful assumption, at least in as much as they need to provide at a solid basic toolkit to accompany the engine. Well, the engine is pretty

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: > The publish/subscribe stuff sounds great, especially since I just > found no newxxx messages are sent when creating a control from the > tools palette. I just ran a test: 1. Create a new stack 2. In the card script, add this: on newButton put the params && the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

I see nothing. My bug report has been confirmed so not sure why you see a message. Were you using lc8 dp7? On Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 6:12 AM Richard Gaskin wrote: > Peter Haworth wrote: > > The publish/subscribe stuff sounds great, especially since I just > > found no

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Mark Waddingham wrote: On 2015-10-12 22:31, Richard Gaskin wrote: That's an obvious option if we assume there must be only one IDE. And from the company's perspective that's a useful assumption, at least in as much as they need to provide at a solid basic toolkit to accompany the engine.

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: > I see nothing. My bug report has been confirmed so not sure why you > see a message. Were you using lc8 dp7? Ah, thanks - that's it. I'm using the current shipping product, v7.1. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop,

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter TB Brett wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Just because LiveCode 8 hasn't got all its eventual features yet > doesn't mean it can't, or indeed shouldn't, be used for creating and > shipping production apps. Many people are doing so quite successfully. > > "Developer Preview" is actually a

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Mark Wieder wrote: On 10/12/2015 01:31 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: 1. How do we open them? Currently third-party tools are relegated to the Plugins submenu, but crafting a launcher tool rack is simple stuff, and equally simple to just hide the current IDE's toolbar (which I've been doing for

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Hi Richard, Just because LiveCode 8 hasn't got all its eventual features yet doesn't mean it can't, or indeed shouldn't, be used for creating and shipping production apps. Many people are doing so quite successfully. "Developer Preview" is actually a misleading term for describing LiveCode 8's

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Correction - I had written: A lot of folks I know still use v6.x, and I have one friend who continued to ship with v5.5.4. That sentence makes more sense when I type the "s" I'd intended rather than a "d": A lot of folks I know still use v6.x, and I have one friend who continues to

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Mark Waddingham wrote: On 2015-10-10 22:12, Richard Gaskin wrote: Weirdest: Replace the IDE with the best of community components --- Like the "Weirder" option above, this would be independent of the product build, but would open the

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/12/2015 01:31 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: 1. How do we open them? Currently third-party tools are relegated to the Plugins submenu, but crafting a launcher tool rack is simple stuff, and equally simple to just hide the current IDE's toolbar (which I've been doing for years - I go weeks at

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

The publish/subscribe stuff sounds great, especially since I just found no newxxx messages are sent when creating a control from the tools palette. On Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:11 PM Mark Wieder wrote: > On 10/12/2015 01:31 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: > > > 1. How do we open

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 2015-10-10 22:12, Richard Gaskin wrote: Weirdest: Replace the IDE with the best of community components --- Like the "Weirder" option above, this would be independent of the product build, but would open the door for anyone to do

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/10/2015 01:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Weirdest: Replace the IDE with the best of community components --- Like the "Weirder" option above, this would be independent of the product build, but would open the door for anyone to do

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/09/2015 12:35 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote: There are two separate issues here: 1) Our out-of-the-box palettes should be as useful as possible for someone with no plugins. Hence the soliciting of opinion. Disagree? I'm happy for a million application browsers to exist, I just don't want to

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Mark Wieder wrote: > ...we have reached the point where LC8 is no longer "LC7 with > widgets"... there's a serious divide here. So while I can play > around with LC8 and try to figure out the new gadgety things > that are being thrown our way, in order to get any work done > I'm using tools that

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:23 AM Mark Wieder wrote: >It seems from the App Browser / Project Browser and Property Inspector >arguments that I've been expecting too much, and we really can't have >alternatives. I have no idea why you've drawn this conclusion, as I've

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: > Would be great if you get flexible groupings going. Having been > through implementing this, one thing to watch out for is that there > isn't a way to get a complete list of properties for a particular > object type. I know some synonyms are missing, but the properties

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

I've filed several bug reports over the last couple of years regarding missing properties, mostly related to propertynames and glad to say they have all been fixed so things are a lot better now than they used to be. The propertynames still includes things that don't seem like properties to me,

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: As I've mentioned in other emails on this thread, lcStackbrowser gives users the flexibility to organize properties into groups. I do this by displaying a list of all the properties for a particular object type, from which users can drag and drop their chosen properties

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: > What specifically was the change, and in what version? The change was that not all properties are returned. I believe it was in v 6.1. As I said in my previous post, it's water under the bridge for me now

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/9/2015 12:57 PM, Peter Haworth wrote: The change was that not all properties are returned. I believe it was in v 6.1. That's odd, I thought it had always been the way it is now. I just checked with Rev 2.8.1 (Jan 2005) and it does not have "width" in the properties of an object. My

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 08/10/15 12:14, Ali Lloyd wrote: So that this does not get lost in the Project Browser / App Browser thread, I've split it off into a separate topic: On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:04 PM Richmond wrote: While I'm on a roll, I could also point out that I cannot see

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=6=25526 ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Hi Richmond, I looked at the differences in these inspectors and I came to the conclusion that the new version is not an improvement. What was clear and everyone was used to in the old version with the words has now been replaced with smaller icons in the new version. While I’m sure we will

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rick Harrison wrote: > > I looked at the differences in these inspectors > and I came to the conclusion that the new > version is not an improvement. What was > clear and everyone was used to in the old > version with the words has now

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

One thing we can easily do is have a preference which allows you to switch to the section names instead of icons. On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 4:36 PM Trevor DeVore wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rick Harrison > wrote: > > > > > I

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/8/2015 10:36 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote: On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Rick Harrison wrote: I looked at the differences in these inspectors and I came to the conclusion that the new version is not an improvement. What was clear and everyone was used to in

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

> On Oct 8, 2015, at 10:50 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote: > > But as Rick said, it's not always easy to identify icons. Tooltips are a must > until we learn what they are. But even better would be icons with labels, > like the IDE toolbar has. Sometimes, a word is worth

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/8/2015 11:21 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote: One thing we can easily do is have a preference which allows you to switch to the section names instead of icons. I'd be all for that, if labelled icons aren't possible. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Ali Lloyd wrote: > Labelled icons are also possible - we could potentially have a > preference setting for one, the other, or both. Inspectors are very useful in consumer apps, where the range of properties is often smaller and their scope less broad. In development tools we often see a

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Roger Guay wrote: > Sometimes, a word is worth a thousand pictures! > I have the text toolbar set, and don't waste screen space on icons. OK, so I spend more time in a terminal than the finder; I'm more a unix guy who's hooked on spotlight and

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

> On Oct 8, 2015, at 8:36 AM, Trevor DeVore wrote: > > I've actually found the new interface to be much more productive. I always > found that using an option menu to switch property inspector panes was > tedious as it required multiple clicks. Switching around

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 8 Oct 2015, at 14:47, Ali Lloyd wrote: > > OK, the palette header actually doesn't currently have the option to > display both icons and labels, so I might rectify that tomorrow. Ali, If you are delving into the PI prefs tomorrow you may want to look at the bug

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Instead of a scrolling accordion list with grouped sets of properties, allow me to get radical and suggest a fixed index list on the left or along the top of the palette. You'd get one-click access to any category, and no need to expand/collapse panes. With an accordion control, you'll likely

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Paul Hibbert wrote: > If you are delving into the PI prefs tomorrow you may want to look > at the bug report I’ve just submitted > (Property Inspector > not respecting Preference setting). That raises another question: If LiveCode is

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Peter Haworth wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: >> Here's an implementation I've been using whenever I need things >> not found in any Inspector: >> >> >> The design is largely functional, but suboptimal.

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Favorites would be a great addition. Pete lcSQL Software Home of lcStackBrowser and SQLiteAdmin On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: > Peter

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Scott Rossi wrote: Instead of a scrolling accordion list with grouped sets of properties, allow me to get radical and suggest a fixed index list on the left or along the top of the palette. You'd get one-click access to any category, and no need to expand/collapse panes. With an accordion

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

OK, the palette header actually doesn't currently have the option to display both icons and labels, so I might rectify that tomorrow. For now, here's a pull request adding the display preference between icons and labels. https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/pull/564 The way we have written

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Actually, no drawbacks at all. In Richard's case, you could expand multiple panes (as I think he mentioned), and in my case, the categories could be treated as toggles, being able to select more than one category to be displayed. And in both cases, if you're hard core, you could have an "All"

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Right, I mentioned the toggle idea as a possible way to view multiple groups in your multi pane idea. Must have missed the reference to multiple expansions in Richard's post, that makes it the equivalent pf an expanding list I guess. It comes down to vertical vs horizontal preference again. On

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

I like the side-pane idea best, but then, you and I are horizontal people. The vertical people probably prefer the expanding/collapsing list. Regarding ascii-drawing-fu: he cheats, he wrote a gizmo to do it. On 10/8/2015 7:12 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: Your ascii-drawing-fu is quite skilled :-)

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Hi Ali, Would be great if you get flexible groupings going. Having been through implementing this, one thing to watch out for is that there isn't a way to get a complete list of properties for a particular object type. The properties array of an object does not include properties which can be

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

On 10/08/2015 02:14 AM, Ali Lloyd wrote: 2) The new inspector is *really* flexible for the classic objects. Have a look at this fix for bug 16118 (no way to change a scrollbar's tooltip in the property inspector): https://github.com/livecode/livecode-ide/pull/562/files Well, OK, I do have to

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

The accordion list and Scott's suggestion (is that a "MIller list"?) both have the drawback that you can only see one set of properties at a time. That might be OK but it does mean more clicking around/remembering values if you want to do that. To get round that, my implementation was a simple

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Labelled icons are also possible - we could potentially have a preference setting for one, the other, or both. They do already have tooltips, btw. On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 6:56 PM Roger Guay wrote: > > > On Oct 8, 2015, at 10:50 AM, J. Landman Gay >

Re: LC 8 Property Inspector

Completeness is indeed important, especially to newcomers as you point out. There are some strange omissions from the pre-8 PI, e.g. it doesn't have a place to specify a behavior for an option menu which, when I first started using LC, led me to believe option menus couldn't have behaviors for